SPEECHES OF MR. DOMETT AND ME. FITZGERALD ON THE REMOVAL OF THE SEAT OF GOVERNMENT.

Wellington Independent, Volume XVIII, Issue 1995, 12 December 1863, Page 3

SPEECHES OF MR. DOMETT AND ME. FITZGERALD ON THE REMOVAL OF THE SEAT OF GOVERNMENT.

We think it only due to the movers of the two propositions for the removal of the Seat of Government to Cook's Strait, that the speeches with which they respectively introduced their motions should find a place in the summary for English and Australian readers. MB DOMETT'S SPEECH IN THE HOUSE OF REPBESENTATIVES, 20TH NOVEMBER. Mr Domett, in moving the following resolutions — " 1. That it has become necessary that the seat of Government of the colony of New Zealand should be transferred to some suitable locality in Cook's Strait. 2. That, in order to promote the accomplishment of this object, it is desirable that the selection of the particular site in Cook's Strait should be left to the arbitrament of an impartial tribunal. 3. That with this view a bill should be introduced to give effect to the above resolutions"— -said it was not his intention to enter into any statement of arguments for or against the general question of removing the seat of Government, nor did he desire to evoke any discussion on that question in the House, as it had been so often discussed that he thought hon members would consider it almost useless and unnecessary. He merely wished to state why these resolutions were proposed now. It had become necessary, he thought, that some steps should be taken now to decide this question. The rapid increase of the southern part of the Middle Island had given and would continue to give, that portion of the country such influence that their desires on this subject must be attended to. He was quite certain, such was the feeling of the inhabitants of the South, that unless some steps in this direction were taken, they woidd do all that lay in their power to secure the separation of the colony, an event than which, he believed nearly every lion member woidd agree with him that there* could be no possible greater evil. All history showed that the separation of populations which might form one state into smaller sjKates, few or many, was a great evil : as instances of which he cited Greece, Italy and Germany, all of which by divisions had lost the high place theymighthaveotherwiseoccupied. By the formation of provinces one step had been taken to the accomplishment of this result in New Zealand ; and he had supported the New Provinces Act because he had hoped that divisions under it would take place to such an extent 'as ultimately to reduce the Provinces to the rank of counties, and to tend to keep the country a xmited one. He still believed that measure should be upheld or something more effectual substituted if we did not mean to bequeath the greatest curse we conid to those who succeeded, us in ttus

country. He did not think that locking - together of states called a federal union could 3 ever make a firmly united and great country. 3 Of this the states of America were an ex- ; ample, and it was probable that the present i separation would not be the only one but that the process would go on for several ages I and perhaps it was the best thing that could ! have happened for mankind and themselves : also. To forestall the separation movement j it had n ow become necessary to do someth lug i to settle the central seat of Government : , and the members of the districts round ; Cook's Strait had with, one or two exceptions ; at last come to an agreement to get rid of jealousies which had hitherto stood in the ; way ef the question being settled. Person- • ally, he did not care much aboutthe question, in fact, he would rather see the seat of Government remain at Auckland, but he believed the southern settlements of the country would soon be so powerful that they would insist upon having the Government without giving any reason for it ; and to obviate that first step to separation he had brought these resolutions before the House. The third resolution of which he had given notice he could not proceed with as it was thought better to proceed by address to her Majesty than by enactment, and he believed himself that that woidd be the most constitutional and most satisfactory plan. The first two resolutions he now begged to move. mr. -Fitzgerald's speech. In the House of Representatives 25th November, Mr Fitzgerald moved the adoption of the following address : — May it please your Excellency, We, the Commons of New Zealand, in Parliament assembled, desire respectfully to express to your Excellency our strong conviction that the time has arrived when it has become imperatively necessary, for the good government of the whole colony, and for the maintenance of its unity, that the permanent position of the seat of government should now be finally settled. . We are of opinion that the just claims and varied necessities of all parts of the colony require that the seat of government should be placed in a central position, that is to say, somewhere on the shores of Cook's Strait. We desire that the actual site of the capital should be submitted to some independent tribunal, by which the interests of the whole colony may be impartially considered, apart from those local claims which are sure to be asserted by the several settlements of Cook's Strait, in the discussion of a question so important to their respective interests. Such a tribunal would, in our opinion, be best formed by commissioners having no interest in, or relations with, any part of the colony, and whose high social and intellectual standing would guarantee a full enquiry and an impartial decision, founded solely upon a consideration of the advantages which the different sites in Cook's* Strait present for the administration of the Government of the whole colony. We venture to think that the Governors of the neighbouring colonies would, if moved thereto by your Excellency, readily lend their aid in the selection of such commissioners. We therefore respectfully pray that your Excellency will be pleased to request their Excellencies the Governors of JSTew South Wales, Victoria, and of Tasmania, each to appoint one commissioner of the character, and for the purpose herein referred to ; and that your Excellency will be pleased to submit to the consideration of the commissioners so appointed the question as to the best site for the Seat of Government within Cook's Straits. We further pray, that immediately upon receiving the report of the commissioners so appointed, your Excellency will be pleased to cause the necessary steps to be taken for procuring the site recommended by them, and for erecting the buildings required for the residence of the Governor, the officers of Government, and the meetings of the General Assembly, to be forthwith erected ; and the House hereby undertakes to vote all such sums as your Excellency shall direct to be incurred for the expenses of the commission, and for the establishment of the Seat of Government in the locality thus to be selected. Impressed with the conviction that continued delay in the settlement of this question Trill only tend to keep alive tliose feelings of rivalry and jealousy, between different parts of the colony, which seriously impede the action of responsible Government, and which threaten at no distant period the dismemberment of the colony ; we respectfully but earnestly pray that your Excellency will cause no time to be lost in carrying into effect the measures now submitted. <■ He said that the motion was simply one for the purpose of carrying into effect the resolution passed by the House the other evening, for the purpose of removing the seat of Government of this colony from its temporary position for the . last few years in Auckland — (Oh! oh!) — into a permanent position in a more central part of the colony. He apprehended that whatever feelings of temporary irritation might have arisen in any of their minds at what had taken place the other evening in carrying this question had long since passed away, and if there was on that occasion any obstacle placed in the way of the complete discussion of this question, its re-opening this evening would afford an ample opportunity for every member in this House to express fully his opinion upon the subject. The resolutions that they had passed the other evening were inoperative and comparatively of little importance except as a preparatory step to .that which he hoped the House would agree to this evening, namely, to take a final step on this question, which had been under discussion now for many years, and which had proved, in the absence of any settlement, of the greatest injury to all the interests in this colony. He wished the House to consider two questions : first, whether any particular part of the colony had any special right or claim to the seat of Government P and secondly, if no part of the colony had any such claim, what was the best part of the colony in which the seat of Government coidd be placed. First, had Auckland any right or claim to the seat of Government ? because if it could be shown to him that they would do any particle of injustice by the removal of the seat of Government from Auckland. He did not say that matters of great public policy might not require them to ignore such a claim, buthe for one would be ready to listen to a claim for ample compensation for any injury done. If he saw that Auckland could make any claim- of justice, derived from its past history, from lawful expectations held out to it or from anything that could constitute a claim, he for one would be exceedingly cautious in making the motion which he now moved the House to adopt, for the removal of the seat of GoA r ernment from that province. It was necessary, in order that he might place this question fairly and simply before the House, that he should go back into the past history oi the government of the colony, and ask the House to consider the position which Aucki land had held during that history, and ho\* i it had arisen that any impression rested upon upon the minds of its inhabitants that it was entitled to be the permanent seat of the go> vernment of tlie colony. la the middle o;

' 1840 the seat of government was first re moved from Russell to Auckland. At tlia time Wellington and Auckland constitute the whole of the colony ; the settlements c Nelson and New Plymouth being constitute* shortly afterwards. The establishment of th government at Auckland at that tim was met by the most vigorous constant, and reiterated protests oj the part of the colonists in the other parts o the islands of New Zealand. But had Auck land been not always since the scat of go vernment ? From the time when the consti tution established by Lord Grey, in 1846 came into force, Auckland had ceased to bi the seat of government of this colony (No, no.) By that constitution the colon] was divided into two provinces, New TJlste" and New Munster; Auckland was consti tuted the seat of Government of the provinc< of New Ulster, and Wellington the seat o Government for the province of New Man ster ; and the Government was carried on ir the two provinces by separate officers, anc with separate chests, having no link of con nection but the fact that at the head of one was a Governor-in-chief, and at the head Oj the other a Lieutenant-governor, from 184£ to 1852, then Auckland was the seat of Government of the Province of New Ulster alone, and Sir George Grey who was at this time the Governov oi the colony, acted upon that idea, and resided for three years at least, in the seat of Government of New Munster, Wellington, from which he conducted the whole of the Government of Now Zealand, so far as such Government required to be, and was capable oi being conducted by the Governor-in-chief in person. Here was a full answer to his mind, to the claims of any one town in the colony, to be deemed as a matter of right to be the seat of government in New Zealand. If there had been any original understanding or undertakings on the part of the Crown or its deputies, that Auckland should be the seat of government, they were entirely swept away by the Constitution Act of Lord Grey in 1846, and the interpretation which the Governor himself had put upon it by his acts. This question of the seat of Government had been a matter of repeated discussion — a matter which had been raised in this House in every session since the first session in 1854, except in that of 1855, when few members from the Southern Island were present. In 1854, Auckland stood as regarded the rest of the colony in a superior and dominant position, which comparatively with the rest of the colony had been gradually decreasing ever since. In 1854, he moved that the next session of the Assembly should be held in a more central place but that motion was lost owing to the party spirit which the stormy debater of the session had created, the Southern members opposed to his party walking out of the House rather than vote for Ms motion. In 1856 it was obvious that the Southern Provinces of New Zealand were beginning to grow in importance and political energy in a manner that particularlyalarmed the inhabitants of Auckland, and induced Dr Campbell to move, that the agitation of the question as to the removal of the seat of Government from Auckland at present would be inexpedient, a resolution which being made a ministerial question was carried by a large majority ; and Dr Campbell afterwards moved that the next session of the General Assembly should be held in Auckland, upon which an amendment was moved by Mr Fitzherbert that it should be held in a more central position and the Government not being so anxious to encumber its position with the decision of this question. It was carried by 18 to 15 to omit the word "Auckland." Proposals for the insertion of " Nelson," " Wellington," and " such place as the Governor shall deem most convenient" were successively rejected, and finally a motion of Mr Sewell was carried to the effect " That the next session shall be held in some such more central place, as the Governor shall deem most convenient," Om the 2nd July the Governor gave an answer expressing a wish to have the place where the House wished the session to be held more clearly indicated, when the House having again considered the question suggested Wellington. A select committee was afterwards appointed to report upon the most practical manner of carrying out the previous resolution and on the 11th of August. The Government requested the House to make provision lor the expense. Another message sent down by the Governor expressed his opinion that unless a LieutenantGovernor were appointed, Auckland would be the most convenient place for holding the next session, but if that were done he would summon it at Wellington. That was the position in which the question was left at the end of 1856, during which all the discussions that took place had not led to the conclusion that on grounds of public policy the meeting of the Assembly (and he argued from that the seat of Government) should not continue to be in Auckland. Yet it was never argued in this House then, that there was any claim of right on the part of the town of Auckland. In 1857 there was no session. In 1858, the question was brought on again by Mr Ward, subsequently withdrawn, and on August 4th, there was a message from the Governor expressing his intention to convene the next session at Wellington. It was accordingly summoned to meet at Wellington on the 3rd May, 1860, prorogued to the 18th June, and prorogued again to the 25th July, to meet at Auckland. By that time the colony had got into those native difficulties which induced the Governor to think that his absence from Auckland would not be desirable, and he changed his intention ; and he (Mr F.) assumed, as there was no censure passed upon the ministers, the House considered that the circumstances of the colony absolved them from the promise to convene the next session at Wellington. He found that in 1861 nothing was done except a motion by an lion, member for the Northern division of Auckland, who moved that the public buildings should be erected in Auckland. The negativing of that motion was, however, a sufficient indication on the part of the House that it did not recognise Auckland as the permanent seat of Government. Then they came to the session of 1862, in which one of the members for Otago moved, on the 21st of October of that 3'ear, that the seat of Government should be removed from that place, which wat negatived by 23' to 22. On the 26th August there was a motion that the next session should be hold in Wellington, wliich was also negatived, and Christchurch ■ fared no better fate. Now he had informed the House of all that had been done since the Constitution Act came into force, and having shown that in the earlier period of , their existence there was no grounds given for the assumed agreement that Auckland should be the seat of Government. He had carried on the argument that there had been , a constant protest against the seat of Govern- . ment being in the place'in which it was now p held. Then he was entitled to retire upon } his first position, that it was incontestibly . proved that there was no right on the part oi r Auckland, to claim such an agreement ; and if v there was no public right there was no private 5 right. No right on the part of those whe . had entered into speculations — very propel f speculation.^ be would, attaifr^tfeat this

;■ should be tlie seat of government ; as those it speculations were indulged in the face of cond stant protests against it being the seat of >f Government. The position in which these d persons stood was, that if Auckland was pere manently made the seat of Government, they c would reap the advantage of their specula- ?, tions ; and if it was not they would be in a d worse position than those who had made >{ similar speculations on the faith of events :- which there was no certainty of being realised, i- It could not surely be urged, then, that per- - sons who made speculations in private pro1, perty on the mere understanding that Aucke land should be the seat of Government, had . any claim to have such considered as a right, V nor that the House should be debarred, upon r coming to a final conclusion upon a question - which above all others was most important 3 to the intererts of the colony, why, on what f ground could it be alleged, when the Impe- . rial Parliament of England gave up the right to deal with all questions respecting the colony, in these large words, "of enacting laws for the good government of the colony." On what ground, he said, could it be alleged that they were debarred by any legal technicalities whatever, from putting the seat of Government in the place by which the interests of the colony would be best consulted. Well, he thought he had reduced the pretensions of Auckland — not its pretensions to come in as any other part of the colony, but its pretensions to claim for itself the seat of Government — to nothing ; and they had now to consider what will be the best seat of Government in the colony. He thought the difficulty of speaking of this question arose from this, that the onus did not lie with them to show that any one part of the colony was best ; but that the onus lay with the antagonists to show that a central part of the colony was not the best. Now, they had heard a most ingenious argument from the hon member for Napier, that in the matter <..'.'[ Government, it was necessary it should be administered from a central place ; but then he proceeded to prove that a central place meant one end of a thing — (A laugh.) The lion member did not follow up his argument by showing any reasons for this extraordinary geometrical conclusions but said something about the centre of gravity. There was indeed a jocosity about his whole arguments which prevented him from taking it as real ; but the hon member said that the political weight of any part of the colony should weigh against geographical position and area. But did he understand any man in that Hoiise to assert that Auckland was 'more important politically, that it had more political weight than any other part of the colony ; did he tmderstand that was admitted by the hon member for Otago. He might say in passing, that there was a most extraordinary oration delivered in that House not long ago by the hon member for Newton, and the House laughed at his speech. But the House was exceedingly wrong, for a more distinctly logical speech he never heard in his life. The hon member argued that the province of Auckland had been grossly and shamefully misgoverned, that the Government had been in the habit of interfering between the harmless natives and the senseless Europeans, and that they had sown dissensions amongst them. Well, that was just what they who were opposed to the seat of Government being here wished to remove — to take away that which had been an incubus to Auckland and the irritating cause of all these evils, and when they had taken the Government away, they would return to that peaceful condition, the loss of which they so much deplored — (A laugh.) The first reason why Auckland should not be the seat of Government was an obvions one, that it was at one end of the colony ; at all events it was necessary that it should be shown why they should put the seat of Government at one end of the colony. By central he did not mean central in point of gravity, but central in point of accessibility, and Aucklandwas not readily accessible to the rest of the colony, and it was not so accessible as other ports that could be pointed out. There was another argument of an incidental nature, which should not be overlooked, and that was that they must have the seat of Government situated as conveniently as possible for the postal service between Panama and Australia, and for that he contended that the most convenient site was in Cook's Strait. (Cries of no and hear.) He could not help hon members saying, "No ; " he had taken his compasses, and it was a pure matter of geometry, and he could not argue with those who would not admit the axioms of Euclid. Another reason why Auckland was not a suitable site for the seat of Government was that it was situated between the most powerful and warlike tribes of natives in New Zealand, and however much they might attempt colonisation under such circumstances, this he said that it was not desirable that the seat of the Government of a great colony should be placed at that part of the colony where it was the most likely to be disturbed, and where it would cost most to maintain. He would not go into a debate on the native question, but he might incidentally say that he could not conceive that any man of ordinary sense would if asked whether it was desirable that the seat of Government should be in the midst of the most dangerous and hostile natives in the colony answer in the affirmative ; for he would decidedly say, "If you have any other place available don't place the seat of Government there." There was another argument which he would wish to use, and yet he wished to use it without any prejudice to the people of Auckland. It was an argument which had been used often, and it was this, that the political power should be in the place where there was the most open and independent expression of public opinion, and where the people should be free from undue influence on the part of the Government. Auckland from the necessities of its position had ever been greatly under the influence of the military. (No.) He did not wish to say anything that would detract from the people of Auckland: he merely stated what he believed to be the fact, and he remembered years ago before he came to this colony, he used to read the parliamentary papers, and was struck with this fact, that at one time there were the same number of soldiers here as there were statute adults, so that each settler had one military man to take care of him. He did not say that the Auckland people were any the worse for that, but how could it be ai'gued that Auckland was the most suitable place for the scat of Government ; for a place where military influence was so exceedingly strong, was certainly not the best place for a free expression of public opinion, and it was not the sort of pi'essure that should be brought to bear upon ' the Government of the colony. Well he would say no more on that head, but would ask if every argument that, he had used . against Auckland did not apply equally against O tago ; both as it respected its geographical position, and the character of its population. Now, as the population of Auckl land was military, so he said again without • one word derogatory to the population oi f Otago, that it ■was not permanent — not atF tached to the soil. The great bulk of tin s people there were of a migratory character > It might be that they would some day be at • tached to Otago, and that a large portion o: i them would, spread, themselves in the gaou

spirit of adventure that characterised other colonists. But they must not be told that at present they gave such, a weight to the colony as to exclude the very obvious proportion he had to support, viz., that accessibility was the most important object when we wished to establish a seat of government. Then if they excluded both ends of the colony, there only remained Cook's Strait. t Here they had been met by arguments, which lie thought were very strange. It was argued that it was not customary in the countries of Europe for the capital to stand in ; the centre, and it was argued by a species of logic, which he did not understand, that therefore the capital of New Zealand should not stand in the centre. But he said that the capitals in Europe did stand in the centre of their respective countries, or that it was with very few exceptions they did not stand very nearly in the centre. But he wished to observe here that the capitals of old. countries had grown up from the ancient circumstances of their history. Originally, the ■. people were one small tribe, and the capital remained where the conquering tribe first placed themselves. But Government in the olden times was very different from Government now. Then it was carried on without that which we now call bureau. The Government interfered little with the acquirements of the people, and the outskirts were governed by the franchise of towns, or by the law of the Governor of the place. But in these modern times we were governed far differently, by reason of the increased sense man had of hi.-; necessities and liabilities, and accessibility had now become of primary impovfcanee from what it was then. And now [he came to another part of the subject ; but he feared he was wearying the House. (No, no.) He regretted that the hon. member for Nelson was not in his place, as this was a particular part of the question in which he was interested. They had been told in Auckland, .-vn-l they would be told in that House, that tiu uiTYyin<r out of this resolution meant separation for c_j colony. (Hear.) "Was that the first time on tiic proposal of such resolutions that they heard the cry of separation, and was it not true that every one who was supporting this resolution was supporting it solely because he knew, and believed that if these resolutions were not carried, separation could not be staved off any longer. (Hear, hear.) It was most curious how the House had disagreed on one point. One party said do not carry these resolutions or you will have separation, and the other said ifyouwant to avoid separation carry these resolutions. Separation was the bugbearwhichthey wished to avoid. (No.) The hon. member for Otago said, no. Did the hon. member for Christchurch want to avoid separation ? Did not ' Mr Stafford want to avoid separation. He said the hon. member for Nelson was not supported by one member except the hon. member for Christchurch, who agreed with him in his opinions. [Mr Wilson protested against his name being used in connection with anyone elses sentiments. Itwasa dodge, or if that was not parliamentary, a piece of chicanery.] He would not allude to the hon. gentleman at all, but he would allude to the hon. Mr Stafford, who, where he in his place would, he was quite sure, bear his remarks with the greatest equanimity. He said that the honorable member for Nelson was not supported by any man in that house, except those who wholly objected to separation. [Mr Gillies : " No."] Why he had still before him, before his mind's eye, the speech which the hon. member delivered in the town of Lyttelton, when he went on one of those missionary crusades, in support of separation. The hon. member used to be a separatist, and he thought he was so still, but he might have seen occasion to forego that important doctrine. In speaking of separation, an argument with had been -used before would be used again, and they would be told that the object they had in view in. having a united colony, was, after all, a matter of sentiment. He had no objection to the view, that when you heard of an argument being a matter of sentiment, that on the whole it was likely to be a stronger one. It was in the same sense that it was said that poetical truth was higher truth than plain truth, and it might be that those who objected to sentiment as truth, where unable to comprehend that which men of a wider scope of mind, were able to see readily. Let them consider the many changes which had come over the face of Europe, and what had given rise to them. What ! but a mere matter of sentiment. If they looked down the history of mankind — to the thirty-years war, and they would find that many of the events recorded occurred through the moving , influence of — what many men called — a mere matter of sentiment. Was it a mere matter of sentiment ? Was it a matter of sentiment at all that a powerful state should desire to cling to its power, instead - of being broken up into bands of small republics ? He believed that there was no argument that could be enforced, or that could be placed before them, of the same importance to the colony as that of the political unity of the colony, now committed to their charge ; and they should consider the value of that great future, which they would throw away when they abandoned unity. No man could listen to what took place in the Provincial Councils of the colony, without feeling the great difference there was in the whole tone and power of those assemblies, a difference between those who had benefitted by intercourse, and those who had not wandered beyond their own province. It showed that there was something to be gained in a large community, and that if they cut up the colony into small pieces so would they stunt the minds of their statesmen. He called this a matter of sentiment ; was Auckland anxious to be the capital — the seat of Government P .-. Was it for the pounds, shillings, and pence ! Why what were they compared with thef • • wealth of Auckland. He honored the Auckland people for desiring to make this the capital, from the love of the place. That was a matter upon which they were to be honored ' and not be quarrelled with, but he would ask l ; the people ol Auckland to consider this one point, that if they had faith in the great re- .. sources, if they had faith in the power and prosperity which their part of New Zealand . possessed, it might become so great in a short time that the South would be nothing to it, : and the seat of government would come back to it for the same power which took it from them — viz., a superior population and the power of interest — would then satisfy their own arguments and bring it back to them. But he did ask Auckland to consider this— ' was it better for their interests that they should separate this colony, and that they 1 should remain the capital of a small province, . or that they should be one great commercial • extremity of an enormous and [[powerful co- " lony. Either Auckland was going to become' ■ one great commercial extremity, in one, of. . i the greatest states, or it was going to becpn^e ..{'; • the capital of an insignificant state, in;jiPL!S^i :.„. '> position to a colony five times its size^and -: f populated by their countrymen, whose suV , : ■ perior importance and wealth would make it s impossible for them to compete with them. = • He asked them again whether they would > - prefer to be the extremity of a great botany, f or the capital of a small colony overshadowed - B by a great °».e» " ; n

I THE CHEAPEST AND SAFEST DOCTOR