PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wellington Independent, Volume XVIII, Issue 1872, 23 May 1863, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, May 20, 1863. The SPEAKER took the chair at 5 o'clock. Absent, Messrs Spinks, Peake, and Hewett. petition. Mr De CASTRO presented a petition for Mr Bolton of Pahautanui praying for compensation for losses sustained during the native ditturbance in the Hutt. Read, received, and ordered to be printed. PETITION. Mr WALLACE presented a petition from Thomas Keys praying for extension of time to enable him to pay his promissory note, due to the Government for his passage from England, further stating, that being unable to get his living by hard work, he trusted the Government would give him employment about the Government office as pergeant-at-arms, or other supernumerary. Petition read. The COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS opposed the reception ofthe petition, if Mr Wallace was about to urge its being piinted, unless in the next number of Punch. Re did not think it exactly the sort of petition to present in that house. Ifc might go for what it was worth, which at the most was a miserable joke. He moved it to be placed under the table. Mr WALLACE said, Mr Borlase ought to have presented ifc, (which we understand that gentleman denies). Owing to that hon. raeeiber, (Mr 8.,) being absent, he, (Mr W.) had done so. He

r ; entirely ignored any knowledge of the matter, :• | and left it to the house to decide whether it ought l . to be received. > i Mr Stokes said, if such petitions were received, i j the timo of the house would lie perpetually taken , up with frivolous matters, and anybody wanting a • situation would be applying to them. il Mr HUNTER said, members were not bound | to present petitions, there was a line to be drawn somewhere, and Mr Wallace's own good sense might have pointed hini out the stupidity of presenting such miserable things. Petition withdrawn. SURVEY. Tho COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS laid ou tlie table a return of surveys, a* called for by Mr Wallace. PRIVATE GRIEVANCE REPORT. This Committee brought up their report in reference to the claims of McLaggan and Thompson, which stated that the contractors were not entitled to any extension of time. Ordered to be printed, together with the evidence. TOWN BOARD COMMITTEE REPORT. Mr WALLACE moved— "That it is advisable to incorporate in the Weliiugton Town Boatd Act tlio amendments suggested in the report of the Wellington Town Board Committee " " Your Committee after carefully considering what amendments should be made in the Wellington Town Board Act recommend : — That the number of Commission ers be increased from six to nine — three to each ward. That an amount equal to the amount raised by rates to be guaranteed l>y ihe Government, such guarantee not to exceed the sum of .£2OOO in each year. That the direction of the prison labor be placed at the disposal ofthe Town, Board. That tho Commissioners of tho Town Board shall have the management of all the public lands withiu the boundaries ofthe City, including the Town Beit, excepting only the lleclaimed Land, and the Public Wharf, That clauses embodying tho above recommendations be introduced iuto the Town Board Bill" J. H. WALLACE, Chairman. Committee Room, Wellington. 14th May, 1863. Mr WALLACE, in rising to support the adoption of the report of tho Select Committee, felt that an important duty devolved upon him as one of the representatives of the City. He considered that the time had arrived when the people of this City should have the full control over their own affaiis. Our institutions were based upon the representative principle, ancl he would quote tiie views ofthe head ofthe Executive upon this subject, given in Bession 3 of this Council. Hia Honor, in his speech to the Council, thus said, — > " Being convinced that the chief business of government can never be performed by the Executive of the Province; but that these matters which most influence the happiness of the inhabitants, ought in reality to be transacted by select men, or in the small governments of townships ; believing that the ultimate success of the constitution will mainly depend upon the mass of the people being accustomed to consider the eocial business as an important item in every man's ' business, I am anxious to seize every opportunity of denuding the Provincial Executive of power, and of vesting it in local bodies." Those sentiments ' !he (Mr Wallace) fully endorsed. The time had arrived when this City should manage its own affairs. In moving for the Select Committee to report upon the necessary amendments to bo made in the Town Board Bill passed last session, he ' considered it a duty to the constituency that he had the honor to represent, inasmuch as the Town Board Bill was an incomplete document — in fact, it was little more than a Roads and Streets Bill, which had already been attempted to bo carried out, but which proved a signal failure ; so much so, that one part of the Bill after annoying the inhabitants at the Thorndon end of the City, had ' been repealed. His (Mr Wallace's) aim was to ' give the inhabitants something more tlian the j mere power to tax themselves — that was no boon to accept. He considered that Mr Stokes' Bill ' had met with a decided negative by the inhabi- , tants, and from what he knew of public feeling the Bill, in its present shape, was decidedly unpalatable ; but would be acceptable if the House ' would fully and fairly consider and adopt the * report now before them. He claimed from the City members their fullsupport ; from the country ' members, also, he hoped to receive that full con- c sideration and support which on all occasions he . (Mr Wallace) and the City members geuerally felt it their duty to give. What did the Report c ask for?— Merely for those rights which belong [ to the City, and without tliem he contended that , the Town Board Bill vftis not worth having. , Taking a view of the Report seriatim, he did not think that any hon. member would consider that " in a scattered placo like Wellington, where the interests of individuals were so much divided, that ' six commissioners would be sufficient. The Report 8 proposed nine, and it was scarcely reasonable to suppose that the whole interests of the inhabitants should every now and then be left to a { quorum of three. On this point, therefore, he hoped that the House would be unanimous. The . second clause, asking for the guarantee of £2000, was in accordance with a resolution of the House , passed last session, and its object in being embodied in the Report was to make it definite and * binding upon the Government ; for without it the l Bill would be unworkable. The third item — c prison labor. The labor of the prisoners could not be employed in other parts of the Province, ! though it might be argued that the labor was, in a money point of view, of considerable value. This l he did not attempt to deny, and would not there- £ fore further dwell on this subject. The fourth clause in the Report was, he was fully aware, the ] great bone of contention, and upon this subject he should endeavor to convince c the House that the principle contended for { was a sacred principle, as far as the ( municipal rights of the inhabitants of this city 1 were concerned, and he hoped that the Bill would \ not pass without embodying the recommendation ofthe committee. He (Mr Wallace) was fully ( aware, that tin's would give rise to a considerable ' diversity of opinion. He contended that the un- { reclaimed land, the town belt, and otheijpublie , reserves were city property, and that as such the ( j management of the same should be incorporated in the Bill. Sir George Grey and the Provincial Government never had the shadow of a claim to this portion already reclaimed. It will be argued , that the Provincial Government reclaimed the land, under an Act sanctioned by this House, and ' was therefore an Act of the representatives of the * people, this he did not deny ; but here let the ( matter stop, and in future the city authorities will deal with that which always did belong to the , city, and which never ought in any way to have been seized upon, ho would say seized npon for in s fact it was a misappropriation of the people's rights. ' He (Mr Wallace) was fully aware that hon members would inform this House that a railway project had been mooted, and that a patent slip J was intended ; it would be quite competent for the ) Town Board to grant any land that might be ' required for such a public purpose, and ho was { quite sure, and he said it with all due respect, that that Board would be composed of men who are quite alive to tho interests of the city and the ' province generally, as the present executive ' There wero many objections to the Town Board ' Bill' in its present shape ; there was no power to ' make bye laws which ib was very necessary for the commissioners to have. One point before concluding he (Mr Wallace) would touch upon, in answer to the views which he knew were taken by hon members from ttie country, who thought that ] the city property belonged as much to them as to any one else, at the same time that the city merely claimed its own property, there were other sources of city revenue which were not asked for, viz. Auctioneers and Publicans licences, and fees &o #l all of which went into the provincial ' chest, and were made use of for the benefit of the province generally, and they amounted to a vary large sum. Ho hoped therefore that the house would support the adoption of the report. The CROWN LANDS COMMISSIONER said that it was all very fine no doubt to talk about "sacred" principles, as his hon friend had termed them, but he thought it would be better to discuss the municipal principles or the practical principle of £s d. In disousding the report ofthe Select Committee by clauses seriatim, he would : observe with regard to olause 1," that he was op-

posed to increasing tho number of Wardens. He

thought ifc far better to limit tho number of War. dens to four. Business was only blundered when there were many. The principal duties of the Board were identical with a Country District Road Board by whora a very good example was set the town rate-payers. The Municipal Board were not proposed to be invested with anything like magisterial powers, and fchree paid members are better than many unpaid. Regarding the second clause, that was a money clause, and unless they made the Town Board Bill a money bill, they I could not consider it. There was no guarantee 1 embodied in the Town Board Bill that certain sums should be paid annually by tho Government but the grant was liable to fluctuation the same as any other annual grant in aid, so that ifc was a mere matter of estimates. The hon. member proceeded to criticize the clause referring to prison labor, remarking that the prison labor had been almost exclusively employed in or about the town, and that in reality the employment of hard labor men rested in a great measure with the General Assembly. The hon member then went into the question of Reserves and twitted Mr. Wallace with the cool demand he had made forthe supervision of public works which would produce aj Provincial Revenue, stating that his friend no doubt would be shortly demanding the patent slip, wharf, bonded store, &c, thereby disturbing the whole of the present allocation of the revenue. The whole of the matter respecting the reclaimed land would require readjustment. (Here the hon member became perfectly inaudible in the gallery.) It would be quite as competent for District Road Boards to claim reserves adjacent to their roads as for the Town Board in Wellington to a->k for reclaimed lands below low water mark, do far from wishing to denude the Town Board of its just rights, the Government actually wanted to assist them, and the City Commissioners are already applying for an extension of the Town Belt, which under proper management would produce a large revenue. With a few remarks relative to tho whole report which ho asked the house to ignore, the hon member safe down.

Mr WATT was in hopes that some other hon. member would have risen to speak to the motion, but as no one had done so, he would like to make a few remarks upon the question. He quite agreed with the principle that the harbor belonged to the Province, but ho considered its management should remain in the hands of the Government, and that it ought not to be placed under the control of the Town Board. He thought Wellingtou had no cause to complain about what had been done with the harbor while under the management of the Government, and he certainly thought it would be wrong to make any alteration when there was no fault to find with the manner in which ifc had been dealt with. There had boen a groat outlay of public money, recently on buildings, wharf, &c. and he considered that the entire Province ought to derive benefit from them. In his opinion the guarantee of i'2ooo Bhould nofc be given for more than one year, in order tliat they might Lave an opportunity of seeing how the new arrangements would work. He would oppose the resolutions in the present form

Mr DRANSFIELD would make a few remarks on tha important subject before the House. He thought the proposal to increase the number of Commissioners from six to nine was a very proper one. The town was to be divided into three wards, and three commissioners to each ward would certainly nofc be too many. He was adverse to their being paid, as he conceived gentlemen could be got who would willingly undertake the duties without any remuneration. With regard to the guarantee of j&OOO, he would only say that he thought the town stood in the same position as the country districts, and he considered they should be dealt with on the same principle of assessed rates. They oughfc not, at all events, to place themselves in a worse position with regard to rates than that which they at present occupied. He considered it only wasting time to talk about the reclaimed land, for he knew they would never get it, no matter what was said. Certain hon. members representing Country Districts, had made insinuations relative to the amount of public money expended in the town of Wellington, but he would assure those hon. gentlemen that if they placed the public undertakings under the management of tho town] they would very soon pay back all the money which had been expended. The PRO. TREASURER proposed an amendment, which, however, was subsequently withdrawn.

•Mr STOKES had taken considerable interest in the Town Board Act last session, and as a member of the Committee which had this year boen appointed to report on it, he would like to make a few remarks with regerd to those portions of the Report to which he oojected. With reference to the proposed increase in the number of Commissioners, he would say thafc he considered six to be quite enough, and they oughfc nofc to increase the number. He did not agree with the clause which specified that all public lands within the boundaries of the town should bo placed under the con trol of the Board, inasmuch as ifc was distinctly understood, when the Bill was framed, thafc the harbor should not be, interfered with, and he thought very properly too. With reference to the amount of guarantee, he always {considered that it was to be the same as thafc given to District Boards, i.e., the Government to give an equivalent to the amount of rates raised by the inhabitants, and the prison labor would be always employed within the precincts ofthe town. Mr HUNTER concurred in the proposal to increase tho number of commissioners. The number of six was too small, as half of them might be absent from the town at the same time, and then ali the important duties would devolve on three.

Mr TAYLOR quite agreed with the suggestion which had been made by the Commissioner of Crown Lands, relative to having a smaller number of Commissioners and having thorn paid. The duties would be onerous, and they ought nofc to divide the responsibility. Ifc was out of their power to deal with the prison labor, and, consequently, it was of no use their talking about that. He would bo very sorry to see the harbour handed over to the Town Board for management, as he considered it was the property of the province, and, therefore, it should be managed by the Government. The Board had already a very large estate to deal with, which would bring them in a considerable income, and the only question which ho considered of any difficulty, was how they would spend the money. Mr BORLASE rose to propose an amendment, to prevent their being shuffled out of a legitimate discussion. He would propose that clauses 1, 3, and 4, be taken seriatim, and that clause 2 be considered in Committee of Supply, The amendment having been agreed, to, Mr WALLACE moved the adoption of the following clause—" That the number of Commissioners be increased from six to nine — three to each ward."

Mr BORLASE had several reasons for seconding the motion. It was well known that people wero often absent from town, and if the number of Commissioners was six, there would frequently a difficulty in getting a quorum together. Besides, so small a number was not calculated to iuspire confidence in the public mind. Mr HUNTER would say, that if they were going to pay the CommissioneKS, then by all means reduce the numbers, but if they were nofc, they oughfc to have more. Even with nine it would be didiculfc to get a quorum together. Mr TAYLOR would oppose the motion. Question put, and the house divided, Ayes, 10. — Noes, 8.

Mr WALLACE proposed the adoption of the following clause — "That the direction of the prison labor be placed at the disposal of the Town Board.

Question put, and lhe house divided. Ayes, 6. —Noes, 12.

Mr WALLACE briefly proposed the adoption of the following clause—" That the Commissioners of the Town Board shall -have the management of all the public lands within tlie boundaries of the city, including the Town Belt, excepting only tho reclaimed land, and the publio wharf."

Mr BORLASE briefly addressed the house in favor of the motiou.

Question put, and the house divided. Ayes, 4. —Messrs Borlase, Wallace, Rhodes, and Dransfleld. Noes, 15.— De Castro, Taylor, McEwen, Allison, Buck, Fawcett, Stokes, Smith, Barton, Fitzherbert, Woodward, Allen, Brandon, John? ston, and Watt,

The house then resolved itself into Committee of Supply on the following clause of the report — " That an amount equal to the amount raised by rates be guaranteed by the Government, such guarantee not to exceed the sum of £2000 in each yeav." Tho PROVINCIAL TREASURER proposed the following amendment : — " That in the opinion of this Council the contribution in aid that should bo given to Commissioners of tho Town Board of Wellington in aid of the rates levied, shall be fixed at a rate equal in amount to the total amount levied for the current year, provided the sum so to ba contributed out of the revenue does nofc ex* eeed the sum of £2(100." Mr BORLASE said that if this amendment was carried they might as well give up the Bill altogether. The Government did not appear willing to guarantee anything. Thoy took all the revenues of the town, but thoy did not appear inclined to give anything in return. He would protest against the Bill altogether unless tho Government was prepared to give them something more definite than that proposed by the Provincial Trea ; surer. He put it strongly to. the Council to take action on the matter', and he trusted that his protest would be heard beyond the precincts of the house. Amendment put, and the house divided, — Ayes 16.— Messrs Fawcett, McEwen, DeCaßfcro, Allison, Taylor, Carter, Smith, Allen, Woodward, Watt, Brandon. Johnston, Schultze, Stokes, Hunter, Fitzherbert. Noes 2. — Messrs Borlase and Rhodes. PETITION. M.r WATT moved,—" That in the opinion of this Council, His Honor the Superintendent be authorised to take such steps in the Supreme Court, or General Assembly, as may lead either to the cancellation of the grant referred to in tho petition I of the inhabitants of Wanganui, or the application of the said land to the purposes of general education within the district of Wanganui, on nonsectarian principles ; or in conformity wfth such scheme as the Supreme Court or General Assembly may direct." In making tbis motion he would say, that it was not the first time he had taken action in the matter, as he had moved for a Select Committee to enquire into the validity of the title in the second session of the Provincial Council. He had no wish, as had been intimated by an hon. member, to see the gronnd set aside for local purposes, but he merely wished to see it being made some use of. At present the land was in the hands of the Bishop of New Zealand, having been appropriated to him for certain purposes, but no use whatever was being made of it. Ifc had been used for educational purposes, but the endeavors to work ifc in that way had been a failure, as ws shown by a published report. When the school was first started, and there was novelty in tho undertaking, a good number of scholars attended, but they gradually dwindled away until, at last, there was only one native man and two children left. Some two or three years ago, the schoolmaster's house was burnt down, and since that period nothing whatever had been done with the land, nor had any endeavor been made to carry out the objects for which the grant had been given. The block of land, consisting of 250 acres, was situated in the centre of the town of Wanganui, and there was no thoroughfare through ifc. If the Superintendent should succeed in either cancelling the grant, or in placing the land under the management of the town of Wanganui, it might be turned to some useful purpose, but it was of no use whatever as it remained. The land was worth £1000 a year rental, and something could be done with this sum towards carrying out the objects for whiah the grant was given. He hoped the House would pass the motion, and that the Superintendent; would be successful in making some alteration. He felt quite sure that any alteration must be for the better.

Mr STOKES would certainly oppose the motion. The hon. mover had nofc shown them any grounds on which to base a complaint. The land in question had been given by Sir George [ Grey in trust to the Bishop of New Zealand, for educational purposes, and the only argument adduced by the hon. member in favor of the motiou was that it was nofc at present used for the purposes for which it was intended. The same reasoning might be applied to grants in the City of WeUington, because they had nofc been used according to the stipulations of the grant. Rents were, however, in the meantime accruing, and there was no doubt that when sufficient funds were obtained, steps would be taken for carrying out the purposes of the grant. Dr ALLISON read a report of School Commissioners, who had inspected the institution referred to shortly after ifc was established, recommending the grant to be sefc aside. He considered that\if it was kept in the present state it would be very injurious to tlie town of Wanganui. Mr HUNTER said that the report referred to by the hon member was dated Febrmry, 1855, and it was rathsr singular that; no steps h^d been taken in the matter since that period. It was purely a local question, and ifc could be dealt with without reference to that Council. He would vote against the motion. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said he would support the motion on the ground that it was only asking for the question to be tested. Ifc was a great obstacle to the progress of tne town of Wanganui, as ifc was most centrally situated. Mr CARTER would support tne motion as ifc would enable them to test the question, as to the right of Sir George Grey, to give away public land. He would like to see the same thing done with regard to the city of WeUington. Sir George i Grey had given away land to the Wesleyan denomination, under certain stipulations, but they had no guarantee as to whether those stipulations would be adhered to, and the question was whether if the conditions were not carried out, the land should nofc be given back again. Mr WATT in reply, said that tho grant to which his motion referred was a conditional one, aud the conditions had not been adhered to. The land ought, therefore, to be pleaced in the hands of those who would make some use of it. The question was then put and agreed to. martin's petition. Mr CARTER moved—" That the Petition of Mr John Martin be referred to the Seleot Committee on Private Grievances." Agreed to. HOROKIWI DISTRICT ROAD, The house having resolved itseli into Committee of Supply. Mr MoEWEN moved— « That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent requesting him to place on the Estimates the sum of .£SO, for the construction of part of the Horokiwi Road" District Road." Agreed to. ROLLo'S PETITION. I -Mr BORLASE moved—" That the Petition of John Rolio be referred to the Private Grievance Committee." Agreed 10. [ WELLINGTON TOWN BOABD BILL. Standing order No. 27 having been suspended. ! The PROVINCIAL, SOLICITOR moved the second reading of a Bill to bring into operation che Wellington Town Board Act. • Mr BORLASE moved, as an amendment, that the Bill be read that day six months: Mr WALLACE would support the amendment. He quite agreed with Mr Borlase that there was nothing definite in the proposals made by the Government. He felt quite sure that the Bill was objectionable to the public. The PROVICIAL TREASURER said there were various ways of letting the Bill drop through if the public found that it did not operate to their liking. Mr FAWCETT would like to know why the Bill was not brought into operation twelve months ago, instead of leaving ifc optional with the publio to bring it in when they had a mind. He considered ifc a private Bill introduced to suit private purposes. He had opposed the introduction ofthe Bill in the last session, and he would do so again now. Mr HUNTER would certainly support the secoiid reading of the Bill. He believed ifc was the opinion of the majority of his constituents, that the measure was required. If they objected to ifc, why all ho could say was, that they knew it was coming and they oughfc to have petitioned against its being introduced. Mr ALLEN had voted against the Bill last secion for obvious reasons.' His objections to the measure had, however, been remedied in Committee, and he would now support the motion for its second reading, Mr CARTER thought the Bill now before the Council was a great improvement on the cumber-

F some measure which the hon. member for the ■ city (Mr Wallace) had endeavored to introduce ■ last Bession. For his own parfcj he could only say i that he had heard no public objections raised . against the present measure. He believed, in fact, that the general wish was in favor of its introduci tion. The measure might not be a perfect one, but it was simple. If the inhabitants did not liko it, they could have it repealed next session. He would support the second reading of the Bill. Mr TAYLOR thought it was a great mistake last session to leave it to the option of the public to introduce the measure when they thought pro- j per. He would like to see the old Act repealed and a new one drawn up, but he was satisfied ' to support the. measure in its present form. He felt confident the majority of his constituents would agree with his view of the matter, and he was sure that benefit to the town would accrue by the introduction of the measure. The question was theu put and agreed to without a division. The bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. Ifc was subsequently formally committed, and its recommittal was made an order of the day for Friday. SOAB ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Capfc. SMITH moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Scab Act. Leave granted, Bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on Friday. DISTRICT HIGHWAY'S AOT. The following message from his Honor the Superintendent was considered in committee : — •• The Superintendent begs to propose tho fol. lowing additional amendment, in the District Highways Amendment Act, Session IX., No. 10, viz., to insert after the words " ensuing year," in the sixth line of the 14th clause, the following words : — " or for any number of years nofc exceeding three." The amendment was embodied in the clause, and ordered to stand part of the Bill, which subsequently passed as amended. REPORT OF THE SCAB ACT COMMITTEE. Capt. SMITH brought up the following report of the Scab Act Committee : — " Your Committee having carefully read all the clauses of the Scab Act, No. 13, Session 9, and ' having examined such evidence as they could pro- '' cure and deemed necessary on the disease called foot-rot, are of opinion that the evidence as to whether the disease is contagious or not, is so conflicting, that thoy deem it inexpedient at present to recommend any provisions to be added to the Scab Act, on account of the above-named disease. <

'• Your Committee carefully considered and discussed the subject of tho brands on sheep, and are of opinion that th© powers of the Scab Inspectors should be extended to the examination of brands ; and to enable them to do this, your Committee recommend that the Scab Inspectors be furnished with copies of the registers of sheep brands, and that all such alterations and additions as may be made from time to time be communicated to them.

" Your Committee deem it necessary that an interpretation clause be added to the gresent Act on scab and catarrh, and recommend that the Chairman ask leave to lay before the Council a short Bill embodying such alterations and additions as they have deemed necessary in the abovenamed Act.

Report read, received and ordered to be printed. APPROPRIATION BILL. The Appropriation Bill passed its second reading, and was ordered to be committed on Friday, WANGANUI TOWN BOARD BILli. Dr ALLISON said he thought it was the intention of the hon. member who had charge of this Bill to let it Btand over until next session. DOO NDISANCQ BILL. The second reading of this bill was ordered to be made an order of the day for Friday. The Council then (11 p.m.) adjourned until Friday next.