DEBATE ON THE NATIVE LANDS BILL. IS THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XVII, Issue 1767, 16 September 1862, Page 3

DEBATE ON THE NATIVE LANDS BILL. IS THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

[ Continued from last Thursday's paper.] period, but very rapidly. The country was full of capital, and once set that great agent at work, and in a very few yeara, the transaction would be complete. The Bill would create a perfect revolution in their condition, and it would be difficult to foretell how such a sudden access of wealth would be borne. There was also another source of difficulty, which consisted in the fact that the Government proposed a mode of ascertaining Native title, when the probability was, that directly the Natives came into possession of their land, they would adopt some simple method of their own to ascertain it. There was considerable danger might accrue from this, but he (Mr. R.) was of opinion, that we must accept the results of the Bill, whatever those might be. He next would refer to the probable effect of the measure on colonization, and admitted with great regret, his belief, that systematic colonisation was at an end. "Vellington members had raised a cry of alarm, and had vaguely asserted that their land fund, which yielded £30.000 ft year, would be destroyed, but they had failed to show that that fund was not already in a natural process of decay. Reference had been made to certain blocks which they hoped to purchase from the Natives, but what ground existed for such a hope The Waitotara block had been alluded to, but it was well known that the purchase of that land had hung fire for five years. The country for the future, would be peopled in the way that it pleased God to direct, and no doubt ways and means, now that the old plan was shut up, would be found abundantly. The hon. gentleman next alluded to the attractions of Coromandel and Otago, and anticipated that should the Bill become law, many who ar rived at those places, would in course of time, spread themselves over the whole of this island, and settle on the land. After alluding to several details of the Bill, he said, that he differed from the hon. member for Dunedin, in the opinion that the Bill was out of harmony with the late resolu tions on Ministerial Responsibility. Those resolutions did not disclaim the right to advise and initiate legislation on Native affairs, and that, false though it might be, it was the position which the House had taken for the last six years, and they could not retreat from it now, Mr. FiTZ HERBERT, after referring to the resolutions on Native affairs which had been adopted by the House, said that the only interpretation of which they were capable was this, that the initaiation of Native policy should rest with his Excellency. It would be ridiculous that they should go on with this measure, when at any moment the Governor might decide that it should not be law. He contendedthat the House had placed itself in an ignoble position by adopting the policy of nonrespon sibility. and that the present Bill involved many important considerations, affecting Imperial, European, and Native interests The Bill would have a detrimental influence on colonisation, and that

thflre were two metho Is which ware usually adopted in bringing in barbarous racea, the sword a>id silver He looked back with plen^uio to the humble part he had taken in staying the war. The sword, in truth had been stayed, and it now remained to try the other means, He thought that the amount of a million was below what this policy would cosfc, and that inundating the Natives with money, would be productive of grear. danger and lead to their destruction. There were no safe guards in this measure for the protection of the Natives against the machinations of land-sharks. He would now touch on the Imperial part of the question. He next referred to the Treaty of Waitagi, which was a recognition that colonisation in theso Islands should go on, and asked if they were to rend that treaty in twain, an effect which this Bill would undoubtedly have. Ihe two documents were incompatible, and it was inconsistent to set at naught the treaties of Great Britain, »nd yet decline the responsibility of Native affairs. If this Bill became law, it would not only damage the revenue of the Northern Island, but would have a tendency to drive away population. Their land revenue was about £30,000 a year, and if that were swept away, how was the province to meet the demands of its public creditor, the General Government. He contended that they would do the greatest injury to the Natives by this measure, and that a proper opportunity had never been given to extinguish Native title here.

Mr. GILLLES never before felt such an earnest desiro for the gift of eloquence of the hon. member for Ellesmere, in order that he might «' righteously support the right cause," in replying to the speech of the hon. member for the Hutt. But though unable to equal in eloquence the hon. member whom they had just heard, he hoped to be able to expose the fallacies which he had propounded, and to shew that this Bill was founded on right and true principles. What, ho asked, was the object of this Bill ? Was it not to remove the native difficulty ? And whence did this difficulty arise ? The history of the Colony, and the piles of papers on the table of the House shewed that it arose from the distrust of the Native mind caused by the ever increasing and onward flowing wava of colonisation, a distrust increased by the dealings of successive Governments toward them, a distrust which had now culminated in the present difficulty. The problem to be solved waa, how to remove this distrust and yet to promote colonization. How to make way for this wave which was now rushing so mightily onwards, though temporarily stopped in the North Island, by this barrier of the Native difficulty. They were this .night called upon either to stand by or to abandon for ever a system which had been acknowledged by its founders and its former advocates to be a failure. By this Bill, they were asked to do in fact, what they had so often declared to be right in theory, and what had beep solemnly acknowledged by tha Treaty of Waitangi, viz : to recognise the Natives as the absolute owners of their own lands. This Bill was the first step in a new and right direction towards removing the Native difficulty, by claaring away distrust from the Native mind. Not that even the most sanguine could look on this Bill as all that was to be done as a panacea for all Native evils, but it was entering on a new and better course, which if pursued would issue in the most beneficial results. Could he believe that this Bill would, aa asserted by tho hon. member for the Hutt, stop tho regular colonisation of this country, ho would be the first to oppose it. But he believed it would rather give a mighty impulse to colonisation and would open the way to roll over the length an I breadth of the Northern Island, by removing Native distrust which had caused the present impossibility of obtaining the waste lands of the Natives for our colonising purposes. The hon. member had spoken of silver and the sword as being the two great civilisers in the world's history, but he (Mr. G.) could tell him of a greater th»n either, and that was justice. The hon. member had often declaimed against tho sword as a civiliser, and now attacked this Bill as the silver mode. [Mr. Fitzherbert explained, that ho had said that silver and the sword were the two great agents by which Native races were trodden down before civilisation.] -He, (Mr. Gillies) was glad to hear the explanation, but by the help of the justice which this Bill proposed to give to tho Natives they would not be trodden down but raised, humanised and civilised ; they would not be overwhelmed, but absorbed in the progress of civilisation. He denied that this Bill was an abrogation of the Treaty of Waitangi, or in any respect incompatible with it;. Had the hon. member instead of extracting isolated expressions from that Treaty, read the preamble, he would have found that the opening words shewed the objects to be very different from a mere making provision for regular colonisation, although that also was to be kept in view. The Treaty narrate-,—" Tha.t Her Majesty regarding with Her Royal favour the Native chiefs and tribes of New Zea'and, and anxious to protect their just rights and property, has deemed it necessary to appoint a functionary to treat with them." And then the Treaty goes on to guar. antee their lands and property to the Natives so long as they wished to retain them — it recognises their full right to their lands, subject not to the sole right of purchase by Her Majesty, but subject only to the Urowri'i right of pre-emption. This right of pre-emption was only a right to the first offer of lands to be sold, and if the Crown did not accept, but refused to buy when offered, then the Natives were entitled to sell to whom they choose. This is the plain and incontrovertible meaning of the language used, and so it was explained to the Natives when the Treaty was signed. He appealed to at least one hon. member of the House who wa9 present at the signature of the Treaty, and who heard it there so explained to the Natives for the confirmation of this settlement (hear, hear ) It was folly to talk of this Treaty giving to the Crown the sole right of purchase. By the Land Purchase Ordinance we had broken the Treaty and had continued so to act, but by this Bill we propose no longer to break the national faith, hut to recognise in fact, what the Treaty and all our declarations and professions since had merely recognised in wonts. Nor was there any contradiction between the House passing this Bill and the resolutions lately passed by the House as to the relations between Ministers and His Excellency. His Excellency had approved of the principle of this Bill, he had taken upon himself the responsibility of deciding that this Bill was a right and proper one. Though Ministers advised this Bill and approved heartily of it, they took no re sponsibility in regard to its results, nor would this House by passing it. But His Excellency had no power to carry out this right principle uutil he received power from that tlouse as given by this Bill. The Governor whilst taking the full responsibility of the policy of this Bill had no power to erect Courts, or to prescribe to existing Courts the recognition of the Native title. That must be done by legislative enactment, which to refuse, would indeed be assuming the responsibility of thwarting the Governor's policy. The lion, member for Ello8ii:ore had suggested that the difficulty of the 73rd clause of the Constitution Act might be got over by indirect means, but he trusted the House would take the straightforward course, and not do indirectly what they could not do directly. The Bill would require to be sent home for Her Majesty's assent and possibly to found on it an vet of the Imperial Parliament, but we ought to pass this as shewing the definite opinion ofthe Colony. A strong appeal had been ma ie to tho fears and feelings ofthe Southern members. Nowalthough it would be wrong for the Southern members to force a Native measure like this on the Northern Island. Yet the South had a strong and large interest in the mutter in getting the •• little bill, '' of which they are now paying the largest share, closed as soon as possible. As to the financial arrangements of 185(5, he would say, that supposing as had been alleged, that arrangement had included as one of its itema that the Northern Island should have the pre-emptive right over Native lands transferred to it (but which he ut-

terly denied), still it was not to any Province or Provinces that such right was transferred, but to fie whole North I*land. And if by a majority of tho northern representatives this right was now considered an obstacle to their progress, they had a perfect right to give it up, and the South was entitled to assist the majority of the North in so doing Nor could this be said in any way to be a breach ofthe financial compact of I8 r >6. Let not the Son .hern members be deterred from doing justice to i\nv idea of liability for the part they might tti'co in ilu's matter. He maintained that there was a, principle, a high moral principle? involved in this Bill. The quotations of the hon. member for Omata from Vattel and Arnold, though applicable to the state of matters when we first arrived in these islands, were wholly beside the question now, for we had entered into certain relations with the Natives by tho Treaty of Waitangi, we had lecognised their proprietary right in their lands, and it was not now for us to turn round and repudiate the terms of that Treaty ; we had long acted contrary to the term 9of that Treaty, but now we were called on to do so no longer ; we were called on now to wipe away a great disgrace to the British name ; to abandon the canfc and sham of saying in words, what we refused to recognise in practice. But it was urged that great evils would flow from this Bill. On tin's head he could refer to no better authority than the Bishop of New Zealand, who said on thia subject : — " The remedy appears to be simple, viz., an unqualified recognition of the Native land title to the fullest extent, and with every legal security that would be given to any land proprietor of our own race." Again he asks, "fn what respect is the Native owner inferior to the English purchaser?" and further, in the same memorandum, he states as his opinion that " direct, purchase from the Natives under strict regulations is likely to have a beneficial effect in disarming many of these suspicions, and so procuring more land for the colonist. Force will be of no avail against a people ready at one moment to die in defence of the inheritance of their tribe. But to receive individuals into a share of their common property was as much a national feeling as to resist to the death the encroachments of a hostile neighbour." And to the hon. member for Rangitiki who after referring to a proposed plan for certifying title wrote thus, — " When a title has been so ascertained in any particular case, and the Government satisfied of the fact, it is submitted that the Natives should then be left to hold or lease or otherwise dispose of their lands in such manner as they might themselves choose." With these authorities there could surely be no danger in passing such a Bill as this. But it was urged that it would be absolute ruin to Wellington. Ho did not believe this. There was a great difference between the Provincial Government, and the Province, for whilst it might to some extent diminish for a short time the Provincial revenue it would, nevertheless, give such an impetus to colonization that Wellington, which had been the least progressive of the large Provinces would under the new system receive a share of the benefits, and the sums which now go into the Provincial Treasury in the shape of land revenue, would n a thousand unseen, but very appreciable, ways, flow into the same channel ; instead of tho torrent they would have the far more beneficial influence of the silent dew and gentle rain. He would not go into the objections urged against the details of the Bill, with many of these he agreed, but his vote was in reference to the principle not to the details, and he challenged the Wellington members to say honestly whether • hey agreed with the principle or not. If they agreed to the principle they could not justly ask that Wellington should be exempted from the operation of the principle. It had been asked was the measure intended to be worked ? If he thought that it was not he would be no party to support it; but he believed they had men now in the Government who really believed in the principle, and had the courage and ability to carry it into operation, and who would devote themselves to that object ; and believing as he did, that this was a right straightforward course, a simple act of justice to the Natives, he would say fiat juslicia runt ccelum, but at the same time declare his firm belief that mat coelu.n never was the consequence of Ji it justicia.

Mr. COLENSO, said he felt a much greater degree of responsiblity than usual in rising to apeak to this Bill. He had given it every consideration that he could think of — and had patiently waited till now— the end of an unusually long debate, in order to hear all that might be adduced both for and against the Bill, if thereby he might be the better enabled to come to a correct decision on so grave a subject He confessed, however, that he was scarcely yet decided as to how he should vote, but he believed ho should vote for the second reading. As a Northern member from an almost isolated constituency, among maoriesand maori lands,— the very novel yet grave subject of this Bill made him very thoughtful — as, undoubtedly a very great change was sought to be effected by it. He believed, however, thitt they had come to this pass, that some change for the better must be attempted," and seeing that they could not do what they would, they must be content to do what they could. He thought there was some similarity in the circumstances of the present time in connection with the Bill before them, «nd of that time in which Captain Hobson arrived in New Zealand. Captain Hobson came mainly to direct and systematize colonization in New Zealand — a colonisation which could not be stayed :— and just so this Bill is an attempt to direct and systematize a dealing which he feared could not now be stayed the irregular dealing of Natives with their lands ; it was of no use now to talk of what would have been best ten or twenty years ago. And it was of little use to talk of what may be best, unless the great Maori element was at the same time fully considered. A Bill of this nature seemed to be absolutely necessary ; for it was very clear that the Natives would no longer sell to the Government any land, and would most certainly do as they pleased with their lands. England's decision was " make peace," and the colony generally wished for peace ; but, he confessed, he saw little hppes of any such peace, unleaa what had long given them (the natives) offence in the matter of of their lands was removed. And here he could not refrain from speaking his thoughts, and telling those hon. members, and the hon. members for Wellington in particular, who had two years ago so joined in opposition to the Government on maori matters, that a Bill of this nature would not now have been needed, had there not been then that unseemly opposition. (Hear, hear). Ho could not help viewing it in the li^ht of a righteous retribution on those who had so loudly spoken of an •• unjust and unholy war." Being a landholder to some extent, he was of opinion that this Bill would be for a time at least, injurious to himself and to other landholders; he was quite sure it, would be injurious to the Province of Hawke'a Bay, which he represented, as a Province, in cutting off her land revenue; an>l he also believed it would in like manner, be injurious to the province of Wellington — and perhaps to other provinces ; but viewing the colony as a whole, as one, it would certainly be productive of good ; good to the colony, good to colonization, and good to individuals. (Hear, hear.) lie thought that much of the injury which the cutting off of the land revenue would cause to the grovinces, might be provided for by the equally laying on of a land tax on future open purchases. He had heard one hon. member say, that it wa9 hia intention to vote for the Bill, because he intended to go in for a slice for himself, (laughter.) But he ( Mr. Colenso) could assure this hon. House, that he had no auch intention; he never had obtained any land for himself from the Natives, (though scarcely another person had had the opportunities he had had to do ao,) and he never should. He had heard many arguments against the Bill, but he had not heard one of a strong, conclusive kind, He would briefly tell the House his own thoughts on the measure before them ; and in doing so, he begged the attention of hon. members—particularly of those who were opposed to the Bill; as, if any hon.

i member could point out to him a better way, by which, the colonization of the country could be effected — or in other words, by which land could be obtained from the Natives, and they, at the Bame tiuie satisfied, he would go with him, and vote against the Bill. It was a well known fact, that tho Natives would not sell to the Government. At the Bay for instance, if the Natives were offered ever so much beyond the value of th.;ir lands—say, £10 per acre, for the Ahuriri plains. — he was sure they would not sell. Therefore, as he took it, they must be prepared to do one of three things ; viz., to take the waste lands — to wait patiently for the reversion of the same — , or to support the principle of the Bill. Now the first, they could not do ; the second it was ungenerous.andjunchristian to think of:— and, therefore, it followed, that the third was the only feasible plan. Then, in adopting the third, he had considered how it had better be effected— as to tenure, and as toquantity, could they limifceither ? take tenure :— Should tho Natives be only allowed to lease, or sell with occupation, or sell absolutely? He believed from what he knew of the Natives, that they must be left to do as they, pleased with their own lands. Then as to quantity :— he had thought that it would be very much better, if possible, to limit, or restrict the sale ; to except such spots as would hereafter be wanted for townships and for landing places, also monopolies of wood and water in certain localities. But, hero again, he was obliged to confess, that such exceptions would not be relished by the Natives, not even a useless mountain range, or the mere apex jof a mount, like Mount Egmont or Manngataniwha. For any such exception would be sure to rouge the jealousy of the Natives, and go a great way to render the whole bill nugatory. Moreover, he had considered it almost useless for the Government to talk to the distrustful Natives of peace and good intentions with such a large army before their eyes, and the restrictions on powder and arms on the one hand, and on their lands on the other. And it was equally of little use to talk to them of Sir G. Grey's scheme of Native policy (however good), unless this concession was first granted to the Natives — to le* them " do what they will with their own," and so remove their suspicions and distrust, (hear, hear.) Unless indeed such concession should come too late. At the same time he (Mr. C.) hoped he should be clearly understood, that he did not believe this Bill to be a panacea. He had heard hon. members say that it would " revolutionize the whole country." and " open doors in every direction to ' land-sharks ' " He, however, believed, the Natives were much too shrewd, too wide awake to their own interests now to be taken in by any i land-sharks' ; he thought it was much more likely to be the reverse, had little fear of any one buying land largely from Natives for at least the next two years, — if at all. He was'of opinion the Bill would tend to sour those chiefs and Tibes who had early sold their lands to the Government, and who had hitherto been mostly loyal and Queen's Natives ; for they had commonly and for a lon r time been taunted by the disloyal or King'd Natives with the selling of their lands. As to the Provincial Bankruptcy in consequence of this Bill, which tha hon. member for the Hutt (Mr. Fitzherbert). had spoken of, ho (Mr. C.) did not fear it, such, however, could be met by a tax on European purchases of Native lands. He recollected, coming to Wellington in 1846 or thereabouts, and seeing on his way into town large staring proclamations offering £100 reward for information of any squatter on Native lands • that proclamation was particularly levelled at squatters in the Wairarapa. The Natives had asked him the meaning of the proclamation, and some among them seemed desirous of easily getting a £100, but he advised them not., to think of it. He hai, both in conversation and by writing, suggested to Governor Eyre, that it would be far better to offer a ,£IOO to the squatter who would go farthest into the interior and that such should be encouraged by the Government, as the Natives j being then desirous of having respectable whites dwelling among them, would be sure to protect i their own pakeha, and so prove a standing militia I to the country, so that the military could be dispensed with. Such would prove the strong bond of common interest so much needed. And when Governor Eyre asked, " what of tho rights of preemption ? What of the land revenue ?he replied meet it by a small land tax. He might also inform the House, that when, subsequently, Go- j vernor Eyre wrote officially to him — both with his own hand and by hia Colonial Secretary, j ( vir. Domett) to assist him (Governr Eyre) in purchasing the whole of the land in one block, ; from Gil pe Turakirae to Ahuriri inclusive; he (Mr. Colenso), after some consideration, informed Governor Eyre, that he could only consent to do so on his agreeing to a reserve for the Natives in one piece from the back mountain range to the sea of one fifth or one sixth of the whole, and give him two years to do it in, — Governor Eyre in the meanwhile keeping out all squatters. That was his proposal then, and he still believed though it was refused, that that would have proved most advantageous to both colonist and Native. The hon. member for Timaru, (Mr. Jollie) had said, " there was no preseut necessity for such a measure as this before them" he (Mr. Colenso) would heartily asrree with that hon member if possible; but, unfortunately, he could not help believing in the necessity. That hon. member had also said, that •' that this House had not the power to pass such a Bill at this, that they were unable to do so by the 73rd section of the Constitution Act" of which ho had read them a portion ; but he (Mr. Colenso) had read the whole of that section; the latter part he did not read. Now the latter portion especially when taken with the words in the Duke of Newcastle's Despatch of June sth, (861, certainly shewed there was no difficulty whatever in the way. He (Mr. Colenso) had heard with very deep regret the speech of the hon. member for Wallace, (he greatly wished that hon. member was now in his place, the more so from the fact of this speech of his being the second that he (Mr. Colenso) had heard him give on Native affairs, both of which were utterly at at variance with all he knew. [Hon. J. Russell, which of the hon. membera for Wallace ? Mr.

Colenso, Mr. Mantsll] That hon. member had told them of his 7 years experience in the Middle fsland as Government agent, or Native Lands Purchase Commissioner and of his having bought more land for the Government, than any other of their agents — '• some 30 millions of acres for £7,000." he had told them, that " it was a dirty business ' and that it was nothing less than cheating the Natives," and much more of the same kind. Sow he, ( Mr. Colenso) should like to know, how it was that that hon. member had managed to do all his " dirty work," to serve Ilia full time of 7 years before he found out that it was a dirty business." Hear, hear.) He (Mr. G.) was really sorry such remarks were made ; and he would ask, whether such statements were not likely to increase the distrust and suspicion of the Natives, as well as to impede and embarrass the Government in all their schemes of Native policy, and in the settlement of outstanding claims. (Hear, hear,) He had also noted, when that hon member had so spoken that he was loudly applauded by many hon, members : that he was also sorry to have heard. Now, for what was the applause given ? and that too by those who now opposed this Bill, particularly by Wellington members — was it for the so-called " cheating " or for the 30 millions of acres obtained for £7000 ? — or for discovering the dirty nature of the work, at the end of 7 year 3, when all was done ? He left it to them to choose which ; but in his opinion, it mast have been for the getting the land at so little cost; which clearly showed in apite of all they had said against such a system, that they wished to see it continued. This certainly seemed very strange from those who spoke of themselves' as being preeminently the lovers and friends of the Maoris. He believed, however, that he could very clearly show the gross error which existed in th&t hon. member's calculation. From a report which he (Air. Colenso) had before him, being "Mr. Buller's final report on the partition and individualization

y lef the Kaiapoi Reserve," one of the papera laid ie lon the table for the information of the House, he d ' gathered. c I "Kaiapoi Reserve : — distant only 13 miles from d > Christchnrch, lying midway between the town- ;, ( ships of Rangiora and Kaiapoi, within a mile of i- a shipping port, having 2 miles frontage on the a I main north road ; contains 2640 acres of land, if perfectly level, and for the most part of excellent i quality. About one fifth of the reserve is densely i- wooded : — owing to the general scarcity of wood 0 in the Canterbury Province, the bush on this 9 reserve commands a ready sale and high price, - , whether as sawn timber or firewood. If we take 3 the bush land to represent an average value of - .£4B per acre, and the open land £10 per acre, (a - very moderate estimate) we have a result of r £45,000, as the present market value of the Kai- ) apoi reserve. This estate belongs to about two 5 hundred natives, about half of whom are absentee > owners." (Hear, hear.) [ Besides this, there are other rich and valuable > reserves spoken of in the same report. While , that hon. member was speaking, he (Mr. C.) had 1 thought on the value of the potatoe and the pig [ which Cook had landed on the shores of Now r Zealand. In his opinion, that first potatoe and ; pig were of value incalculable to the New Zea» . landers, wortn more than 2 million acres of their f lands. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for , Wallace had entirely overlooked the greater . benefit. In his (Mr. C's) estimation the £7000 was but as the potatoes and pig given by Cook— , these 3d as it were of future prosperity. The . great benefit to the Natives was the advantage , arising from civilization and colonization, through , which one acre of their land was made to be worth more than 10,000 acres originally. (Hear, * hear.) The hon. member for Wallace had alto s said, tha v . '• he would give the Natives as much , for their lands, as settlers had given the Crown for , them. js. or 10s. per acre." This was another : great error, one too. which would be sure to have j a bad effect out of doors. He could tell that hon, f member, that some of those lands so told at sa. . and 10s. per acra, had not paid the outlay upcQ [ them. Further, the hon. member for Ellesmere . had said, " that it was impossible for any such ) courts aa were proponed by this Bill to go into all ) Native Titles, and that in order to accomplish 5 this, such should be investigated and settled only t in an English Court, after the manner of the ; Land Claims Court." He however, could tell > that hon. member, that if those courts could not. t do so, there was an end to all colonisation ; for . nothing was more certain , that if snch invest?* ) gation. such disentanglement was ever to be dose i at all, it could only be on the spot, in their ru» i iianga courts. If however, that hon. member r meant the English Court, constituted after tho 5 the manner of the Land Claims Court to be a . moveable court— then he (Mr. C.) would agree ) with him. The hon. member for EUesmere had . spoken against the Bill, as keeping the adminisl trative and judicial functions mixed in the village r runangas, which were better separated— but ho i had overlooked the fact that while his observation } was perfectly true in the abstract, they must deal 3 with the abnormal irregular maori element as . they best could ; and he (Mr. C.) assured that hon. t member, there was no help for it, — he feared t there was really no other present way of doing . the Natives any good, in the matter of their lands . save through their village runanga. In them, s he hoped, as he had said before, lay the germ : of future good ; which, carefully trained and t directed by a fit supervising hand, would bye-and- . bye produce fruit. Thus order would spring from t disorder. The hon. member for the Hutt, (MIJ 5 Fitzhorbert had also spoken of this Bill aa i " abrogating the Treaty of Waitangi, and rending , it in twain " ; and of the three contracting parties . to the Treaty— the Crown, the Natives, and the . Colonists— whose consent to abrogate such Treaty ) was first necessary. While however, he (Mr. C.) 3 doubted if any such " three parties " being so coa» 3 cerned, and should like to hear the hon. mem. s ber prove it, he (Mr. C.) saw no political difficulty. t whatever in the matter— certainly none of tM ii kind which that hon. member had attempted to . ahoiv namely, to refer this Bill during the recess, I to the various constituencies. For were not such i " three contracting parties " now engaged, or to b* . engaged in the carrying out of the Bill? They h«4 I already heard of the Governor's approval of the . Bill — which, as to its main principle, had been . indicated in the Despatch of the Duke of Newj castle, and it was to be reserved for the further . consent of the Crown : the Natives, they all knew, were but too desirous of being allowed to do H L , they pleaded with their own land, and had c clamoured over and over for such liberty, and tho [ colenists were represented by themselves in thia 0 House. If that hon. member's objection was real, a what more could be needed to remove it? a 'I hat hon. member had also spoken of the " X9» 1 Hnquishment of the right of pre-emption as i damaging to the North Island." He (Mr. C.) - t would only ask how is it to be prevented ? Theflt i were the facts, the natives would no longer recogt nise it and would sell or lease, the colonist could a no longer recognise it, and must buy or re 2& ? Could that hon. member or any other hon. mem* . ber devisa a better mode than the one proposed 1 in the principle of 'the Bill? — one in which tho ; natives would co-operate? If so he (Mr. C.) r would heartily support it. While however h« j professed himself of necessity to be favorable to ) the principle to the Bill, it was his duty to inform } the hon. the Native Minister that there were ' clauses in it which he (Mr. C.) did not like 1 and ) could not support. He should seek, to hay» thosflf _ ; clauses amended in Committee. At present fc# r . would merely call the atteution of the hon. the; - i Native Minister to clause 2, which stated the whdSO i of the North Island of New Zealand save that > portion the Native title to which N had been «X» ) tinguished to be the absolute property of the na» i tives : — to clause 15, which provided for the but* t. veyors of all the unsold lands, ten twelfths per* ) haps of the island, at the expense of the Colony, j and to clause 17, which made nail and void > every contract for the purchase, lease or occapa* t tion of native land made prior to the granting of , a certificate. He greatly doubted the propriety, . not to say correctness of such a statement as that

in the 2nd clause. If by the extinguishment of native title was only meant such lands as had been actually transferred to the power, and also decided on in the joints of the Crown, then suck statement was wrong. He believed thera was yet another class of lands over which the native titlo had been long ago bom fide extinguished such aa those lands sold by them to the settlers in Poverty Bay and elsewhere ; as well aa laiids given by them in trust for certain purposes. Then them were also lands which several years btek had been offered to the Government, surveyed and mapped at the expense of the Government and monies advanced upon them by the Government* Such as the Waimarama block in Hawke's Bay* If every contract, &c. which the natives had freely entered into was thus by statue to be disannulled, they would be taught another agreeable lesson which would be verysure tore-acfc most injuriously. Now that the Crown's right of pre-emption was about to be waived to benefit the Maori and tho future settler, surely settlers just claims should not be forgotten I (hear, hear.) A claim, be it remembered, which for many years even tho semi -savage strenuously supported against tho) " law" of the civilised government— although from a later time, he too has found it convenient to disallow and repudiate it. He hoped he should not be misunderstood, as if he were speaking in favor of any recent purchases leases or contracts entered into, to the great injury of Government and of the Colony. As to surveying their extensive lands which they might never sell, at tha colonists expense he was sure the colony would never consent to it, in fact the Government could not do it. It might be expedient to advance the money to do so. He .would not detain tha House any longer, but all those clauses with. others of less importance he hoped to see amended. in Committee, and beiieviug'tihis, he should sup port the BUI.