GENERAL ASSEMBLY. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Wellington Independent, Volume XVII, Issue 1761, 2 September 1862, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Thursday, August 28, 1862. The Speaker took the Chair at 2 o'clock. Present — Hon. the Attorney-General. Major Richmond, C. B. t Colonel Russell, Colonel Kenny, Messrs. Tancred. Cutfield, Menzies, Hall, Stokes, Johnston, Crawford, Capt. Baillie, H. Russell. Mis-reporting. COL. RUSSELL rose to draw the attention of the Council to the following instance of misreporting. In one of the local papers (the Advertiser) in the report of a debate in the House of Representatives on a question referring to this Council, Mr. Fox was reported to have said : — " Mr. Fox spoke againat the motion and in favor of the amendment, making some allusion to the rottenness of the Legislative Council." He would now read the following statement made by Mr. Fox in the House of Representatives in reference to tlie above report. " Mr. Fox complained of the manner in which his observations upon the constitution of the Legislative Council had been misrepresented in a local newspaper. He had then objected to that part of the Constitution Act, which did not recognise local Representatives and eulogized the plan which in the United States senate, gave a certain number of members to each state great or small. He had not for one moment reflected upon the personal composition of the Council and felt greatly hurt at the manner in which the tenor of his remarks had been mis-represented. But he in common with other honorable members were bo constantly exposed to this course of preceding, that it would be endless if he was to occupy the time of the House upon such matters, but as in this case he was informed that members of the Legislative Council had expressed annoyance at the language which was attributed to him, he lost no time in rising in his place in the House to disavow it. He called upon the House and the Honourable the Speaker to corroborate his statement." "The Hon. the SPEAK.ER confirmed the recollection of Mr. Fox. He had himself noticed the misrepresentation in the paper of which that gentleman complained, and of which he thought he justly complained. He was, however, of opinion, that it was irregular for hon. members to remark upon the constitution of the Legislative Council, as it would be for members of that Council to remark upon the constitution of the Representative Chamber, unless it became necessary in the discussion of 6ome motion upon the subject to do so. He had submitted the statement he had read to Mr. Fox, who had declared it to bo substan-

tially correct ; and he had felt it to be his duty to bring the subject before tho Council. Ministerial Responsibility in Native Affairs. Mr. TANCRED in moving the following resolutions, said that the arrangements laid down in these resolutions had been adopted by the Housa of Representatives aa guardians of the public purse, and it was not deemed expedient to bring thsm before the Legislative Council until they had been decided on by the other House. There waa an ambiguity about the word responsibility ; in one sense .vlinisters were responsible to the Crown, in another they were responsible to the House for the advice they might give to the Governor. The disclaimer of responsibility in these resolutions did not mean that the Ministry were irresponsible to the House, but that they were responsible for the advice they gave to the Governor, and were not responsible for the course his Excellency thought proper to adopt. In affairs connected with the Europeans they were responsible to the Assembly, and by the Royal Instructions they were compelled to advise the Governor ; they could not escape that responsibility. But though they might advise the Governor, his Excellency was not bound to follow their advice. This waa not a question of right or wrong, but which was the best mode of governing the Natives. As the Governor was appointed by the Crown it seemed fitting that he was the most proper person to administer Native affairs. It was quite obvious that that the two races were essentially distinct, and that those who were competent to manage the affairs of the one might not be so competent to administer the affairs of the other. He referred as an illustration of his meaning to the processes of the Courts of Law. A summons with a European was a symbol of the law and was obeyed by him, while the Native treated it with contempt. He believed if the Ministry of 1858, had not been restricted by the Crown, that the system of administering Native affairs under Responsible Government would have averted the present evils. The Crown at that time was anxious to retain the power of controlling Native affairs, but if the policy then introduced by Ministers had been followed out there would yet have been time to prevent the present slate of things. Now the state of things was exceptional, the circumstaucea of the case were not alike ; at that time the country was in a state of peace, now we were in a state of hostility ; the Natives were dissatisfied and were without law or order. As a consequence of this state of tilings the Governor was obliged to interfere with troops, and tho colony was unequal to the task of quelling insurrection. Under these circumstances, ho thought the administration of Native affairs should rest with the Governor. He thought that the Council was to blame in 1858 for opposing the Government in their Native measures. Nearly all the opinions of those best acquainted with Native, affairs up to a recent date, were in the direction that the colonists should not have the management of Native affairs. The hon. member then quoted the opinion of the Bishop of New Zealand: — " The safer course for the present seems to be that the General Assembly of the colony should not be contsidered in any was t« represent the Native race ; and consequently should not^ exercise legislative powers in matters affecting their interests without their concurrence;" — and also those of Sir VV. Martin and Mr. Swaiti3on as expressed in their Memoranda on Native affairs in 1860. He concluded by expressing hU belief that the late Ministry had exerted themselves in a most laudable and satisfactory manner, but that they had been engaged liy xN'ative affairs to the neglect or exclusion of European affairs. Mr. Tancred then moved the following resolutions : — '-That in the opinion of this Council, the relations between his Excellency the Governor and his Responsible Advisers should rest upon the following basis — " l. That Ministers should, in conformity with the Royal Instructions advise the Governor in Native Affairs (as well as in Colonial Affairs) whenever his Excellency desires to obtain such advice, and should also tender advice on all occasions of importance when they deem it their duty in the interests of the Colony to do so. " 2. That Ministers should undertake the administration of Native Affairs, reserving to his Excellency the decision in all matters of Native Policy. " 3. That, aa the decision in all matters of Native Policy is with his Excellency, the advice of Ministers shall not bo held to bind tho Colony to any liability, past or future, in connection with Native Affairs beyond the amount authorised or to be authorised by the House of Representatives." Seconded by Major RICHMOND. Mr. CRAWFORD— I object to the proposed resolutions. They are b}' way of a new political creed on the subject of our relations with the Natives, and a creed which I must say is unin ■ telligible to me, and also 1 suspect to others. I believe. Sir, that the question of responsibility is principally a money question. It is a question, although unacknowledged, as to who shall pay, the Mother Country, or the Colony? Sir, I believe, that a great deal of shabbiness has been attempted on both sides (if I may be allowed to use so unparliamentary a phrase) : — the Home Government trying to shuffle off payment on the Colony, and the Colony wishing to evade payment to the Mother Country. The fact is, Sir, that as long as New Zealand remains a British Colony the Home Government is and must continue responsible for its defence either against the Natives or a foreign foe, and for the expense thereof, and the Colony is and must be responsible for as much as it can afford to pay towards the said expenses, and for every possible assistance. But, Sir, the power of tho Colony to contribute is a quostion of wealth and populdtion. This I can easily illustrate. Honorable gentlemen may not be aware that I am one of the oldest inhabitants. I was here, Sir, in the year 1839. I landed on the shores of Cook's Strait in that year, and walked over to this harbour. I then found but one Englishman in the place, he resided at Ngahauranga, and his name was John Smith. Well, Sir, John Smith may be said then to have con stituted the Colony as far as the white population was concerned. Tho British flag was not then hoisted, but it waa soon afterwards." Suppose, Sir, a war had then broke out with the Natives, and the British Government had called upon John Smith, as " the Colony," to pay the expenses of the war, I suspect. Sir, that worthy individual would either have given an evasive, or a decidedly negative reply. The means of the Colony to supplement the exertions of the Home Government must depend upon its progress and advancement ; and Sir, I believe that we are not entirely dependant on the dictum of a Secretary of State ; for should that high officer, misled by imperfect or fake information seek to throw too great a burden upon the Colony, I feel certain that a proper statement of the case, and an appeal to Parliament, would reverse his decision. I have only, Sir, to aild that I think the Home Government do wisely in accepting the management of Native Affairs by the Responsible Ministers of the Grown in the Colony — for, Sir, they have the guarantee that the management is committed to the best, or at all events to the second best statesmen that tho Colony possesses. I suppose, Sir, the Ministry think themselves the best, wnile the Opposition think them only the second best statesmen. Much better, Sir, to depend upon the management of the best men to be procured, than to trust to the Maori quack doctors who have mismanaged matters so much hitherto. Sir, I shall vote against the resolutions, because they are unintelligible, because I believe there is already a political creed in the Blue Book of last Session on tho subject, and because I look upon their affirmation as useless. Mr. STOKES said, in rising to express the reasons which influenced him in giving his vote on the resolutions before the Council, he would not detain them by many arguments in support of those reasons because he could not hope to add anything new, or say what had not already been aaid with reference to them. This question had been publicly argued so ably and so fully as to

» have completly exhausted the subject, and this had beeu done so recently as to leave the echoes of those arguments still sounding in their ears, . His chief objection to these resolutions was theit l vague and indefinite character ; it was attempted i by them to define the relations which are to exist , between the Governor and his Ministry in the > management of Native affairs, but this was done i in so vaguo a manner as to convey little or no i information as to what these relations really are ; ; j the question is left in greater uncertainty than before, and the chief object of the resolutions i appears to be to evade responsibility on the part of" the Ministry and the Colony, the object with which these resolutions were framed seemed to be to say something and to mean nothing. But he did not think the affirmation by the Council of resolutions so lukewarm as these was likely to convey to his Excellency the impression of that hearty co-operation on the part of this Council with respect to Native affairs which wa9 promised I by them at the commencement of the Session,' j neither was it calculated to impress the Natives with the conviction that they were in earnest in their professions for their advancement in civiliza- , tion and the introduction of those institutions among them which it was expected would be the chief work of the Se3aion. The language of these resolutions was too cold and measured and guarded to impress them with this idea, and as waa generally the fate of all half measures would, he believed, fail to satisfy either the Imperial Government or the Native race. They would fail to satisfy the Imperial Government because these resolutions would be taken as an answer to the Duke of Newcastle's despatch which has recently been laid on the table of this Council in which the Imperial Government formerly place the management of Native affairs under the control of the Assembly. The Assembly is placed in this position, that whereas last year a resolution was passed by the other branch of Legislature in which it was declared that "no organisation of the Native department will be effectual or satisfactory which does not, while fully recognising and securing to the Governor botli the initative and the decision where Imperial interests are involved place the ordinary business of Native administratration under responsibility to the Assembly ; — . now that this responsibility is conceded, it is attempted to evade it and get rid of it. But while he thought this was not the most fitting course to be pursued or one best calculated to impress the Home Government with a belief in their earnest co-operation in the efforts now making to restore peace and establish cordial relations with the Native race, neither, as it seemed to him, was it one which was likely to be attained with success. They could not evade their responsibilities if they would, and they would probably find in the arrangements ultimately made that the assistance given by the Home Government would be leas liberal than if a different course had been pursued. The hon. mover (Mr. Tancred) had referred to opinions which stated that Responsible Government in Native affairs ought not to be granted to the colonists because the Natives were not represented in the Assembly. He (Mr. S.) believed that if Responsible Government in Native affairs had been granted before, that the members of the Assembly would have been so deeply impressed with the responsibilities which attached to them of the lives and peoperty of the colonists of the Northern Island in the event of Native disturbances that if the question of peace or war had first been submitted to them, the Taranaki war would never have taken place. He believed these resolutions would fail to satisfy the Native race., If they wished to gain the confidence of the Natives, tney must be prepared to give them theirs in return : they must on this walk in no Halting or hesitating spirit. If they desired to remove their suspicions and convince them of their desire to unite the two races as one people under one law ; if they hoped to obtain their ready acceptance of these institutions for the establishment of law and order, they must not be content to look on with folded arms, but be ready to take their part in the work and accept their share of the responsibility. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought it better that the Council should express no opinion whatever on the resolutions, than that they should embarrass the Government by negativing them. It appeared to him unnecessary t« ask the opinion of the Council upon the subject of the relations between the Governor and his, Ministers, that had been determined by the Resolution of the House of Representatives. The position of the Government would not bo affected by any decision which the Council might come to. His, hon. friend opposite (Mr. Tancred) did not, as he understood, propose the Resolutions as expressing the mind of his Excellency. Nor did he (Mr. Sewell) think them likely to strengthen our position with the Home Government. He therefore moved the previous question. Colonel KEN NY in seconding the motion of the lion, the Attorney-General, said — If any hon. member o£ the Council could say that he fully J understood the scope of the Resolutions under j consideration, and felt that the proposed administration of Native affairs by the Governor and Ministers was sufficiently defined to provide against the various difficulties and in tricacies which would occur, he might very properly vote for the adoption of the Resolutions. But, for his part, he had not that confidence, and therefore he would rather that the Council were not called upon to pass the Resolutions. In hia opinion the best course, under existing circumstances, would be to allow the Governor unfetterrd action in relation to questions of Native policy. But he had no desire to create embarrassment. He was pre. pared therefore to assent to the resolutions, if the hon. mover, in his reply could assure the Council that they were in accordance with the views of the Governor, and were the result of a complete 1 understanding on the subject between his Excel- 1 lency and Ministers. Ho was glad to find the lion, member admit that his views had altered since the Session of 1858. He was glad to hear him say that the Governor was the fittest person to deal with Native Affairs, but he did not clearly j understand the grounds assigned by him for his ! change of opinion. He understood the hon. member to state that in 1858 he held the opinion that Native affairs ought to be dealt with by Responsible Ministers, in tho same manner aa other questions of Colonial policy, because that period was a time of peace, and Ministers were consequently in a position satisfactorily to undertake that responsibility, — but that now, the Country being, as he might say in a state of war, through acts over which they had no control, he considered that Ministers were no longer able to cope with Native difficulties : and, consequently, that that duty properly devolved upon the Queen's Representative in the Colony. He had stated, also, that the Council was in some degree to blame for the present state of matters through its opposition to the Native policy of Ministers during the Session of 1858. Now he (Col. X.) would remind the hon. member, that dming the session, thei Ministry of the day passed through the Legisla-' tive Council every Native measure which they introduced. There werefive particular Billswhich they themselves originated, professedly for the benefit of the Native race, but on none of them was any action taken. The most prominent act of the, Ministry alluded to, in relation to Native affaire was in connection with the difficulty which arosa on a question of Territorial light at Taranaki. On that occasion, as would be seen on reference to the Minutes of the Executive Council dated 25 th January, 18fiO, responsible Ministers deliberately advised the Governor to proceed, if necessary with a forcible survey of the land in dispute at Waitara—and recommended that the officer in command of H.M. Troops at New Plymouth should be empowered to proclaim martial law, and to call out tho Militia and Volunteers of the Province. This waa the sequel to the opportunity that was afforded to the responsible ministry of the day, during the time of peace spoken of by the hon. member for carrying out their own scheme of Native policy to satisfactory results. He (Col,

a X.) would not further detain the Council, but j would merely add that the present course of call* . ing upon the Council to pass Resolutions in refer- • ence to the relations of the Governor and hia '. Ministers in Native affairs wa3 a novelty. On a , former occasion these relations when entered into 1 1 were simply embodied in a meraarandum, and : i transmitted to the Council. He thought this i ! would have been the better course in the present instance. At the satne time, if he understood from the hon. mover of the resolutions that they were entirely concurred in by the Governor, he would not oppose them. If otherwise, and the resolutions were not withdrawn, he should support the motion of the hon. the Attorney-General Mr. MENZIES spoke at some length on the. question Referring to the bills passed in 1858, ho said that having held decided views in the Council on these bills he had seen nothing which had since induced him to alter his views on those .points. He expressed hia belief that the time would come when the whole control and responsibility of Native affairs would devolve on the Ministry. He agreed with the Attorney-General, that it would be better not to express an opinion on this subject, but he should not feel disposed to vote against the resolutions. Mr. HALL would not discuss the merits of resolutions, of which however he approved. They laid, down with regard to the conduct of Native affairs, principles similar to those contained in the memorandum of 1856, to which he had then given his adhesion. But it was too late to submit these resolutions for discussion, after a Government based upon them had been long established and in operation. If the assent to the resolutions of the other branch of the Legislature was not sufficient, they should have been introduced there (in the Council) long ago ; if it was sufficient, there was no use in their being discussed by the Legislative Council. Should tlie Councirhappen not to approve of the principles they laid down, it was quite certain that no attention would be paid to its decision. It would find itself placed in a very undignified position. Under these cii'eumatances he should feel bound to vote for the previous question ,- but he hoped the Government would consent to withdraw the resolutions. With regard to the assertion of an hon. member that if the conduct of Native affairs had been in the hands of Responsible Ministers, the war at the Waitara would never have occurred ; he (Mr. H.) begged in justice to the late Governor to point out, that every one of the important steps which resulted in hostilities, had been taken by Colonel Browne in accordance with the advice of his Ministers, Mr. TANCRED, in reply, said that he thought if the Ministry had had their way in 1858, the Waitara war would not have occurred; if Mr. Richmond'^ scheme had baon carried out it would have prevented the occurrences that led to the necessity of war. The hon. member (Col Kenny) had congratulated him on his change of opinions, but he still held the- opinions he formerly entertained and should in similar circumstances still support Ministerial responsibility in Native affairs, (hear, hear.) But circumstances were altered, and in a state of war an outlay was required, which the Colony could not afford. The hon. members (Mr. Stokes) argument would be just in other circumstances, and it was desirable we should, shew our hearty co- operation, but he did not think by these resolutions that Ministers were evading their responsibility ; all they said wa.% they would not involve the Colony in any expenditure for Native purposes beyond what was actually voted. He thought the hon. member had hardly dope justice to the late Governor. But the Imperial Government had said that the Colony had no voice in the matter. Mr. T. concluded by expressing himself to be in the hands of the Council, and to be ready to withdraw the resolutions if they desired it, as it appeared that there was a strong feeling in the Council both among those who supported, and those who opposed the resolutions, against the expression of any opinion either in one way or the other. Message from the Flouse of Representatives, A message was received from the House of Representatives informing the Council that the House had passed the Native Reserves Act, 1856 Amendment Act, and had made certain amendments in the Supreme Court Amendment Bill, and Land Registry Act Amendment Bill, to which they invited the concurrence of the Council. On the motion of Mr. Tancred the Native Reserves Amendment Bill was read a first time. Public Works Amendment Bill. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL in asking leave to bring in this Bill explained that it was a short Bill to amend the Act of 1854: to allow in certain crises the transfer of Public Reserves to Public Boards. Leave given and Bill ordered to be read a first time to-morrow. Nan Payment of Rates. The ATTORNEY- GENERAL in asking leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the sale of land for the non-payment of rates, briefly explained the objects of the Bill. He said that a practice had grown up of imposing rates for making roads and other local improvements in different Provinces, and that the object of this Bill was to enable Provincial Governments to invoke th© authority of the Supreme Court for the recovery of rates in cases of non-payment. The Bill wascal. led for by the circumstances of the time and would he believed meet with general acceptance. Leave given and Bill ordered to be read a first time to- morrow. The Council then adjourned.