GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Wellington Independent, Volume XVII, Issue 1756, 21 August 1862, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, August 14. [Coninued from our # last.J f Financial Statement. On the motion of Mr. BELL the Speaker left the Chair, and the House resolved itself in a Commit, tee of Ways and Means. The Hon. Mr. BELL then entered upon his Financial Statement, and spoke for nearly four hours, the debate was adjourned till Tuesday on the motion of Mr. FOX. The statement will be published in full in a future number. Superintendent's Nomination Bill. Mr. FITZGERALD iv moving the second reading of this Bill, said he need not occupy the House long, the question being one that had been so widely and thoroughly discussed in the colony, during the last few years, aud proceeded to give a history "of the reasons why the Bill had been introduced now. Early in the Session, he happened in the course of a debate to drop a few expressions in favour of nominated Superintendents, and when he sat down, several hon. members came to him, and aaid, they had not the least idea you wished to have nominated Superintendents, why that is what everybody wants, and they desired him to move in the matter, which he declined to do, till he knew more fully the opinion of the House upon it, but in the meantime, the hon, member for New Plymouth put a resolution on the paper asking the House to declare itself in favour of Nominated Superintendents, which he, (Mr. F.) asked the hon. member to withdraw, thinking it might be possible not merely to pass a resolution, but to make a complete change in the law this session. He thought, however, that it would not be fair to run a Bill through the two Houses in the present session, as the inhabitants of the different parts of the Colony could have no information of it and would consequently lose their right of petitioning against it. After some consideration therefore, he thought a Bill such as the present, would meet both objects. He had always felt there waa something very wrong at the basis of the constitution of this country, not only with respect to the powers of the General Assembly but of the Provincial Councils also; in that they should be able themselves to pass to pass measures affecting their own Constitution. This was a grave constitutional fault which would lead to trouble iv future, for the party power in might by passing an Act at one particular moment confirm and continue its own powers to the detriment and exclusion of the influence of what might be a few mouths after, the opinion of the majority

of the country. The States of America, with the most democratic constitution in the world had no power to alter their own Constitution, but. if any alteration were wanted, they must go back to that from which their power was derived — the people, and he felt that in making a change, this House ought to retire on the peop.e themselves and give them the power of expressing their viewa. He had thought this on several occasions when be had seen representation Bills passed by Provincial Councils, in doing which they had the power of giving the whole political power of the country to one class, or another by the mere alter, ation of districts and the number of Representatives. Unless this was a popular Bill, it would be wholly inoperative ; it could not possibly do any harm, and not possibly take from the people any power which they possess or fancy they possess ; and in making this change, it was im. portant to persuade them of that. The Bill was a very simple one, proposing to enact that Superintendents should be nominated by the Governor with a few clauses to accommodate that position to existing law. The 7th clause enacted that a Superintendent should only hold office five years. This limit was desirable, because it might be desirable to remove the officer nominated without passing anything on him. like a slur or censure. A further object of the BUI was to provide for the appointment of Deputy-Governors. It would be a question for the people of any Province whether a Deputy-Governor should be appointed to it, but this Bill would prevent the anomaly and absurdity to have a Deputy-Governor and a Superintendent existing at the same time. The Bth clause, it had been pointed out to him was in contravention of the third qlause of the Constitution 'Act, 1q ea'ying that when a Deputy Governor was appointed the office of Superintendent should cease. That was merely a theoretical objection which ha proposed to meet by the substitution oi the words " shall be exercised by the Lieutenant or DeputyGovernor so that they were now for the first time called upon to make Provinces, anil appoint Superintendents for those Provinces, he put it to the House whether they would fall back on the ays. tern of nomination or of election. When the Constitution Act was passed in 1852, he with the late Mr. Godley, a man of the greatest political foresight, and others in England felt, and the opinion was shared, with few exceptions, by all the leading men of this colony, that a grave mistake had been made in placing the Constitutional nomination of Superintendents in the hands of the people, for they knew that when the Constitution Act was framed it was intended to have made the appointment of Superintendents similar to that of Governors, &c.,as was still apparent irom the other clauses, which were wholly inconsistent with the idea that the head of the Executive of 6he Provin~3 should be elected by the people, creating on anomalous office never established before under British rule. The hon. member next argued against the idea held by some that the Provincial Legislatures were intended to bo merely Municipal bodies, with only Municipal powers ; for in the Constitution Act the powers given to the Provincial Councils were conveyed id exactly the same words as to this House, though there were certain reserved subjects upon which the Provincial Councils were'not permitted to act. The hon. member then pointed out the wide distinction between a Municipality and what might be called a government. With the exception of of those thirteen subjects he agreed the Provincial Legislature were intended to have the same powers as the General Legislature. No advantage had been gained by departing from the ordinary mode of Government of British colonies, because the people had gained no more power by it, but rather lost, for a (Superintendent when once in office could virtually maintain himself io office if he chose to make use of the means to do so. He next pointed out the difference between election to a Legislative office and an elective office. If a man agreed with him in his opinion as to what ought to be done he could vote for him to representhis opinions in a legislature, but in an election for an Execu live office what they wanted to know was, the candidates capacity for- governing,— whether he was an honest man possessed of peculiar administrative power ;— on, which points the electors must be profoundly ignorant. Before an English Minister "attained to power he underwent a most perfect competitive examination, iv the long course of his tiial asu member of the House, but the man who appeared on the hustings for the first time as a candidate for the Superintendency, what could they know about his power of administration and honesty. These arguments had been long working io the minds of the people, and they were dissatisfied with the present system, for, he repeated, they did not gain power but absolutely lost it; because, as he had said before, the only mode in which the people could gain power, aud the only real power they could exercise, was . by their determined, nay, continued and well considered will, constantly expressed, a power which they sacrificed by the election system, to a momentary expression'of will under any passing influence that might happen to be brought to boar ..upon them at the time; Then came conflicts between the officer* so elected and the Council, The Council said "we will do so and so for we are the Representatives of the people," and the Superintendent replied, "so do I represent the people, and it shall not be so." One great fault of the Gonstitution Act was, that the Superintendent had no power to dissolve a Provincial Council, or a, machinery provided, by which a more wide spread intelligent feeling could be brought into the Council. Again, the Superintendents were charged with the expenditure of" a large portion of the revenues of the country, giving them an enormous power of rewarding votes out of the public funds, which a Legislature could not directly do. If he wished to spread bribery and corruption, throughout the land he would adopt precisely this elective Superintendent plan. He was not referring to anything that had taken place, nor did ho wish to say anything unkind to any member of this House. So long as the Superintendent existed, it was their duty to maintain his power to the utmost ; but although electors had been compara • tively speaking pure hitherto, they must not judge of what had gone on already, but by what it would in future come to U the system remained. He did not know if his hon. friend the Superintendent of Canterbury was so attached to his position as to be willing to risk hid character to retain it, but he would Bay this, that if he (Mr.F.) were in that position, he would defy the whole province of Canterbury to get him out of it. (Laughter,) With £200,000 a year to spend amongst a population of 16,000, he would like to see the man that would get himself out of that office when he once got in. (Great laughter.) He did not wish to insinuate that his hon. friend would take such a course, for he believed, that if he could get out of his present situation, he would do so! He did ' not believe that . Hon. member would do anything dishonourable but he certainly had the power of keeping himself in if he wished to do it. (No, no.) Well he (Mr. F.) thought so, and he would undertake to do it. (Great laughter.) The people had lost power by this system, and- therefore if this House could give them the opportunity to alter tho system when they pleased, it would be justified in doing so. Another important point was, that at first this country was not one colony but six ; six settlements which were as much distinct colonies as any colonies that England had founded* having: no communication or interests with one another, no common niachiiiery" of Government;.^ anijL no common objects in view, — founded indeed "upba different interests and for different objects^ The Constitution Act was intended to meet the difficulty I ' and it did meet it, but in the passing of that there were two questions to be considered the one, the giving of power to the people and the ojther,,the giving of local powers to eacH"of these distinct divisions of it, for it waa most jostly^feit that 'if they, placed supreme power in any one point, created one. great I centre of Governmentt there would be a tendency to central expenditure

•. ! to the detriment of the other portions of the islands. Of these two things therefore, it was of far more importance that the powers of Govern- , ment should be localised, than that power should be given to the people, because they knew perfectly well that if the}' carried on the colonisation of the country, the people must acquire power in time. Now this object, he contended, hail been in a great measure frustrated by the system of electing Superintendents, by creating an authority in each of these local Governments, not a part of, but distinct from and which must be in many cases opposed to the General Government of the ' country. There was hardly a Superintendent in ' the Colony who had not been at one time at loggerheads with the General Government The General Government would not trust power to authorities over which they had no control and therefore was obliged to hold in its own hands the powers which it would most gladly delegate to local authority and exercise through an agent on the spot. He had now, he thought, given sum cient reasons to ask the House to vote for the second reading of this Bill. The evils to which we had alluded had grown to such an enormous head that they could only be satisfied by dismembering the Colony , had resulted in the Separation movtment of Otago, which was not a mere cry, not a desire for Government expenditure ; but something real was wanted. They wanted that a digger should not go to the Superintendent about anything, and be told " my good man, you are perfectly right, but I have nothing to do with it," and when he had found out the proper department, go to an officer of the General Government who had to write to Auckland about it. Otago was able to maintain a Lieu-

tenant Governor of its own, and it was a place

.. to which he should look to take advantage of the ■r- feature of this Bill in which the powers of the 1 .Superintendent might be vested in a Lieutenant Deputy Governor, If they were true and real in . what they wanted, they did not want separation for the sake of making the whole Middle Island administer to their needs and to their dignity, but for the sake of Otago itself, they would be thoroughly satisfied with the provisions of this Act. In conclusion, whether it were as a matter of theory to reduce the Constitution Act to the form in which it came from the hands of the theoretical politician who drafted the Act: whether for averting the evils which would come on this Colony if tfte present system were maintained ; or whether for the purposes of meeting the particular movement springing up at Otago, — the House could not do better than to pass the Bill ■ which he had the honor to move the second reading of. Mr. WATT briefly seconded the motion going into an account of the origin of this part of the Constitution, and stating that it was owing to .the change in the English Government from Earl Grey to . Pakington, that we had elective Superintendents in the Constitution Act. He also drew the attention of the House to the fact that this was not the first time the subject had been : ■ mooted in the New Zealand Legislature, for in the other House last session "a resolution was ar- . rived ot •' that the appointment ot Superintendents ; by election is attended by grievous inconveniencies and is inconsistent with the proper working of the ■■ of the Government ? He had himself only the . other day proposed to move a resolution on the subject which he withdrew at the instance of the - - hon. member for Ellesmere, but ha was actuated •-. by no political provincial motives l'elating to Taranaki; * naki ; for the present Superintendent of which and also his predecessor cordially agreed with him ' {Mr. W.) in the views he had taken of this matter. Major RICHARDSON referred to this Bill as : another instance of tendency towards Superintendents so prevalent this session. It appeared he was to suffer first and he hoped he should die with becoming dignity. He really was not aware that he had such powers as the hon. mover said. With the Executive checks he had had the hon- .• our to introduce into Otago, it was impossible for • him to do a single dishonest or arbitrary act. (Oh, _ oh,iind a laugh,) and he did not know how in any ■single instance ha should affect his own resolution even if he desired it ; and he had done all he possibly could do to prevent it, The hon. mem* ber for Ellesmere appears to draw a distinction between the Executive and Legislative powen of the ■ Superintendents. He (Major Richardson) held that the Superintendent was an essential part of the : Legislature (hear.) Without his concurrrence :.- no enactment became law. His own Province

the other day were very anxious to rewaid him but he put his veto on it, recommending to the General Government that it was not desirable for the public service. He saw in this Bill a great centralising tendency. He wanted to know what was the Government in this Bill, believing himself that it would be the Government in Council. If the Superintendent were to perform his own duties " in accordance with in

structions received Trom time to time from the Government." the local Government of the Province could have no influence whatever. He

could not see what the Legislative Council and , House of Representatives should have to do with the removal of a Superintendent. The hon. mover thought that honesty of purpose and ad.'ininistrative power would be best secured byleaving the appointment to the Government but how could they see political influence would not be used there. A Deputy Governor, he was sure, could not possibly act with Provincial Institutions, and he looked in fact upon this Bill as an attempt to destroy Provincial Institutions. He knew the time would come when all these provinces would be emerged into one united government, but till that time came there was no need to impair the usefulness of the Provincial Governments, fie moved that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.' Mr. FOX ceconded the motion pro forma . Mr. MOORHOUSE could not support this Bill unless it had the approval of his constituents, and thought the different provinces should have an opportunity- of discussing its provisions and general bearing. If the present systom were altered, what security was there that the nominated Superintendent would refrain from using corrupting influences to give him a majority in the Council. The measure would have a mischievous effect, and would not be well received by the people. All the benefit which might ace; ue from the system of nomination, would equally result from the election of Superintendents, to hold office either

during good behaviour, or for a much longer term of office, say at least ten years, or the people might nominate six men, of whom the Governor

should choose one. He looked upon the present Bill, as helping the central Executive to exercise gross influence over all the country. He defended the honesty and capability of Provincial Councils, and argued with reference to a General Executive, that long experience, and extensive education

were no guarantee for honesty. If this Bill were passed the Governor alone must be made responsible 1 " for the nomination, and the Hou:e of Representatives and Legislative Council, should have no voice Jn the removal. He considered a

mischievous change might be effected, and hoped the "House would wait before it committed itself to a course which it might a.fcerwards regret having adopted . Mr. uRACROFT WILSON would support the Bill as a means to an end, viz., that of putting an end to the antagonism that existed between the different elements of the Government of the country. Mr. O'NEILL would vote for the «eeond reading of the Bill, because he saw in it a way of - getting rid of what had become [a common nuisance in the province he represented. Superin- «. tendents he thought, should not have.a seat in the House, and Superintendents had spoken to night as if they had a vested interest in their office. He questioned if the electors would echo the sentiments of the man who talked here oi" 1 my province and my council.' git was almoit'imposnible to unearth a man from the Superinten- ' had taken root and wns determined to stay in, and the expenditure of heaps of money, gave peculiar facilities for corruption. The Su-

perintendent he was of opinion, should be elected from and by the Provincial Council, as this would tend to secure harmony between its members and their chief. Ho thought the Bill removed several objectional features in the present system, and would therefore vote for it.

Mr. COLENSO, thanked the hon. memher for Ellesmere for bringing this bill before the House, though it was not at exactly the right time, but he would not be able to vote for it. He agreed with the last speaker that superintendents, however'appointed, should be disqualified from sitting in this House. Could they not bo elected for the Provincial Council, and the Constitution Act modified without a Bill of this kind. They were so elected in the Province he represented . and it had worked well. Superintendents, he thought should not be available for re-election, at the close of their term of office. There should be a provision, in the Bill, making it requisite that a Superintendent should be a settler, or at all events that no military man not a settler in the Province should be appointed. He objected to the clause proposing that a Superintendent should act according to instructions received from the Governor, nor could he agree that the Legislative Council or House of Representatives should have anything to do with the removal of a Superintendent, but he thought, the petition of three fourtus of the Provincial Council, should have that effect.

Mr. THOMPSON felt it is duty to oppose this Bill, because he thought it would act unfairly on Superintendents. The Superintendent i 3 the representative of the people in the aggregate, and by changing the Constitution as proposed, they would be giving power to the smaller districts, to swamp the larger ones He would remind the hon. gentlemen, that our colony is composed of Englishmen, who have inherited liberty from their birih.

Mr. WARD and the hon. member (Mr. Fitzgerald) were actuated by two reasons in bringing forward this Bill, one being, that an elective head to an elective body is an anomaly, and must be gOu rid of. The other, Sbeing that a nominated Superintendent ig mucli better than an elective one. He hag made a mistake, when he says, we must not look to the present circumstances, but to what may in future arise. It would be wrong to supplant Superintendent's (after a trial of nine years) after a discussion of one week. If they wished to alter the Constitution, they should do it little by little, and not forget the way in which the English Constitution grew up ; was there any proof that elective Superintendents did their duty unsatisfactorily, or was there any proof that nominative Superintendents would do their duty more satisfactorily. Do we approach this subject from the points of view, that the Superintendents had not performed their duties sa'/.siactorily. YW.sit not aTaci, that in all the original provinces, the same Superintendents have been more than once elected. Is it not apparent from that {act, that the fovin of election gives to each province, the governor who satisfies that province. He was sure that the experience of the past nine years, was so far in favour of elective Superintendents ; when we wish to change one hoi t of an officer for another sort of an officer, we should consider well the causes of that change, and be sure that beneficial results would spring from it. What is the nominative Superintendent to be, that he is better than the elective one. There waa this disadvantage in the change — there was the chance of persons being nominated, who are not accustomed to legislate Is ifc intended that the various departments of a province, are" to be governed by this nominated Superintendent, or are there to be departmental heads ? Is the government of a province to be a reality or a sham ? We know that we live under an English Constitution, but if we give the control of our affairs to persons appointed without our concent or approval, what check have we upon its abuse. The case admits of being resolved into that absurdity, whichever way we look at it. If you still believe that locql government is the one required for a province, you are commiting the colony to an absolute denial of it by the Bill. If you say they are .to have the same powers as an elective S.up-rinten-dent, you are removing from the province those powers which you before have said, are to bo left with the provinces. The question is uot whether there are objections to the present mode of Government, there will, and there must be objections to any system while there is a colony and yet are nine. If you want good government, you must to a certain extent give up the idea of colonising from nine different points. By leaving the election of a Superintendent to the people, they are sure to elect a man Avho has some interest in the province, and it is better that a man should be placed there who has some interest in the province, than a man who lias none. (Hear, hear ) He would dread to see the day. when in place of havinj an elective man knowing the requirement of the province for a Superintendent, we should have a stone, a stick, or a puppet. He advocated refraining from tinkering "with the Constitution. The real machinery for the country, was the Superintendent and the Provincial Council. By interfering with that machinery, we stop the progress which it has begun — a great constitutional change like the one proposed, should take months to consider. Mr. HARRISON said the Bill appeared to him a retrogade piece of legislation, and one which would be distasteful to the people, besides taking from them the beneficial exercise of their judgment and care to put the right man in the right place. Such an important change should not be proposed unless strongly urged by the people themselves. He should therefore vote against it. Mr. CARLETON then moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday, which was carried after some little discussion.