HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Wellington Independent, Volume XVII, Issue 1754, 16 August 1862, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Wednesday, August 6, 1862.

[Continued from onr last.]

Mr. MOOREiOUSE said,— Sir, as seconder of the3e resolutions, I feel a remarkable interest in the adoption of them by the House. I believe that at no former period of our existence as a legislature, since the establishment of our Constitution, liave we had the profession of good will towards the Maoris laid down for their information in such unmistnkeable terms. Whatever course the Government may take after these Resolutions are passed — assuming that they will pass — whatever course this House will take if the whole management of Native etfdrs is handed over to it; — at all events the Resolution cant fail to be extremely useful to give a more clear indication of our good will to the aatives than has ever befoie been sent out of the country — whether the result of the deliberations of His Excellency the Governor hi Council may be the employment of our large army to conquer the native, or whether we sUould succeed in the fusion of the races by another process. These resolutions cannot do any harm. I remarked Sir, that my lion, friend who last addressed the House aaid at the opening of his speech that he was glad to hear the mover say that these resolutions being adopted would notinvolve a material departure from the policy laid down by the Government Now 1 am bound to confess that iii giving support to these .Resolutions, I do muteii.illy differ ,rom that plan (Mr. Fitzgerald, hear, hear.) I entertain a very different opinion as to what is the actual situution of affairs , and to how those affairs shoti'd be treated. My idea is a very different one indeed, and the process that I should advise is a very short one. My hon. iriend seemed to be in difficulty as to how we should legislate in this extremity. Now I believe that the statutes only, in the event of these resolutions being carried, of ministers accepting this indication of tlie opinion of the House in a proper spirit. The first of th?se three statutes would he for the establishment of a Court for the iudividualization of Natives Titles. We have already heard from the Native Ministers that there exists little difficulty in the way of such process that native title mi^lit be easily ascertained. All that is wanted then, is to authorise the making of a kind of Doomsday Book in which these Titles should be recorded for ever, and by reference to which shall be decided a iiiau's ii o ht to the franchise. The second statute would be for erecting a Court with a special acquitable jurisdiction No new laws are required ; for the laws in existence are amply sufficient for both Native and European. Let the ordinary Courts administer one common law fgr the benefit of the whole co nmunity ; hut to soften the pain that would necessarily follow the forcing of European laws upon the natives, I would have the King sitting in Equity and hold his Court in different parts of the Colony, I would have the Queen represented by a special Judge, who should hear and decide in what cases the penalties and pains of English Statute Law should bt eased in favour of particular natives. This may seem a curious process, but I am perfectly assured that it is a very easy one indeed. Let- Bis Excellency take our English Judge, one in whom the Colony should have the greatest confidence that thera would be no abuse of his power, — a lawyer and a gentleman thoroughly understanding ihe function of a Court of equi'.y of this kiud. His duty would be to hear appeals from the Courts below. The Ordinary Magistrates Court might inflict fines and award punishments, and bail be given till an appeal can be had to the court above, mid if it be found that a native had erred from manifest ignorance of English Law, the tooshof the Law as against him should be drawn. In the third place, I look, Sir, with the greatest dismay apon the establishment of this ninanga. Whether District or Village, I believe they are exceedingly ruinous ex. periments likely to involve us in all sorts of difficulties, expenses, and delays, stereotyping in fact existing evils. Is it likely that the Natives having had these privileges, having the concurrence of the Government in their having Parliaments of their own, will be induced to take the direction of the Government as to how they should use these privileges, when they are told it will have to be swept away for a better European system. Would it not be better to state at once and tell the Maories distinctly they should not make laws at all till they indicate a desire to make laws in the spirit of the laws made in the other legislative assemblies in the Colony ; to enable them to do so pass a third statute for the purpose of dividing that part of the Colony occupied by Natives into Provinces. (Mr. Fitzgerald, hear, hear,.) Within those Provinces there should be Provincial Councils, but it is impossible they should legislate under the s.ime restrictions as imposed ou Vie other Provincial Councils. It is also impossible to carry Unit out until you have first individualize Native title because you cannot have an elective Council till you ascertain who is entitled to the francliHH. Give them nuuhood suffrage. My hou. friend (Mr. Fitzgerald) says, but I would irjt depart from our declared intention of assimilating in every particular the G overnmeat of the Natives tD thatoftlie European. It may appenv almost indecorous iv me to speak so freely here on this subject, which is one that a gentleman of the South might will be 'lilßdont in talking of, but there does exist some sort of guarantee for the value of opinions coming from the South, arising from the cireurnstaiice that we are not so brought in coutact with difficulties with the natives as to prejudice us iv our judgment as to what would be the right course to get out of the difficulties and extract others from difficulties. I believe it to be j positively necessary to intiin ue to the Natives at once, that except for the purpose similar to whick reserves have been made iv other parts of the Colony, no land whatever should be bought from the Maories by the Government, that the Natives should be left to deal with their own lands in the way they think proper, be at liberty to sell it at any price they choose, declare that the Government trading iv land which has done our Government so much damage, should cease for ever, and the Government will no longer be regarded aa a pedler, but be looked upon iv a higher capacity. Leave all such trading to individuals and the Govemmeut will be relieved 2 om that loss of dignity,associated with buying ond selling land at a profit. Tlae Natives seeing the Government buying laud at sixpence and selling it at a pound, naturally conceived that they should hav3the profit to themselves ; aud it is possible they would submit with a much better jjgrace to a fine to be imposed on the sale of their lands. That is one of the modes of raising a Revenue which

would relieve the Oolony of a jjroat amount of the expense we are afraid of. The management of Native affairs. Sir, would not'be so costly as we now imagine. The Imperial Government, I believe, oil being relieved from the expense of keeping a large army here, would give a grant of money in aid of carrying out those plans. I have heard read to-day si despatch from the Duke of Newcastle imposing upon us conditions wh;ch appeir to oe . ratuer too hard upon us, but this disinclination to part with large sums of money for Native purposes is on account of our charging them with very large expenses iv respect of the naval and mibury forces we require to keep matters quiet. Publish these resolutions tothe Natives aud mak« these stitutes. My hon. friends smile, but I am perfectly certain that if w« take auy course — ;If His Excelleucy's Goverumen; don't take, at all events, a course very much like this, they will make a dreadful mess of these Native affairs. I hope I am not wearying the House, but as I am going away to morrow I want the Minister of Native affairs to understand why I support these Resolutions, in the hope that the Government wiil lo3e no time in publishing these Resolutions to the Natives, and that they will during the Session introduce Bills such as I have mentioned. (Oh, oh.) In those Bills they might insert a clause authorising the Government to withold the operation of these Statutes until he should he advised that the time had arrived when they should come into operation. Thus you would indicate clearly to Ihe Natives what is intended ; put before them at one glance the whole system and the ultimate cud of legislation for them ;.butl feel earnest in my conviction that if you encourage these Village and Dist.ict liuuangas, you will postpone the result wished for by those who support these Resolutions for an indefinite psriod, and in all probability produce war. Indeed, I think it is tha most certain way of doing it.

On tUe motion of Mr. FOX, the debate was then adjourned, and the H01136 also adjourned at halfpast 11 o'clock, till Thursday, at 5.

Thubsday, August 7. The Speaker took the Chair at 12 o'clock,

Petitions*

The Hon. Mr. BELL presented petitions from Edmund J. Hals well and .John H. Luscombe, referring to transactions with the New Zealand, Company. Petitions leceived.

Papers. The Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY laid on the table Despatches from the Duke of Newcastle respecting withdrawel of ships of war, from New Zealand to Sydney.

The Hon. NATIVE MINISTER laid on the

table,

Despatch from his Grace the Duke of Newcastle respecting Grants of Crown Titles for Natives under certain circumstances.

Despatch from his Grace the Duke of Newcastle, relative to effort made by Natives, to com pel Mr. Gorst to abandon Upper Waikato District. Despatch from his Grace the Duke of Newcastle, relative to differences between Europeans and Natives in the llawkes Bay District, aud arrangement of the same by Mr. Ward. Despatch from His his Grace the Duke of Newcastle, relative to payment of Troops employed in making road to Waikato.

Requirements of the South. Mr. DICK asked the Colonial Secretary whether it is the intention of Government to propose during this session, any alteration of existing an angements, whereby the Southern Provinces of this colony shall be brought into closer connexion with the seat of government, and shall have more speedy and satisfactory attention paid to their requirements. The 0 JLOiSTIAL SECRETARY replied, that the present Government had not had time totalce the matter into consideration yet. Ministerial Responsibility The hon. Mr. DOMETT in accordance with the wish of the House, postponed hij resolutions on Ministerial Responsibility till to-morrow.

Marine Boards Bill, The hon. Mr. MANTELL obtained leave to introduce a Bill, entituled au " Act to establish. Marine Boards for the general control and management of Ports, Pilots, Lighthouses and other matters relating to navigation, and to regulate Port charges and other rates."

Bill read a first time and ordere.l to bo printed, and to be read a second time on Tuesday next. The Amounted Debate on Native Policy. Mr. FOX. not pressing his right to speak,' the adjourned debate was resumed "by Mr. C )LISNSO, who said he would take his stand as a practical ta-m, a position which was wanting in the splendid oration of the lion, mover. He would go heartily .with that hon. member, if he thought his beautiful theories could ba accomplished, but he believed them utterly utopiau and impracticable, lie would first proceed to com nent on some of the expressions used by the hon number last night, an. l he thought that the hon. number ought to feel ashamed of hU reference to the Natives as having " grasped the mysteries of a lofty faith," — a thing which not a third of the persons in that room could be said to have done, which was more even than the students of the university, which the hon. member had left in the mother country were able to do. Then the lion." member hal referred to the constitutional lassitude of the chiefs, a quality which was not known among them, tiil flour and sugar came in. The chiefs were the courageous striving, and enterprising men of their tribes, free from anything like constitutional lassitude or they would not have been chiefs ; as for their perseverance those conversant with them, knew well, that the great enemy to the development of their intellectuality, if they had any, was a want of steadiness and application. But he contended, that they were not an intellectual race. All their arts of canoe making, carving, tatooing, weaving, oratory, &c, belonged to a time far gone in the night of history ; but if they were an intellectual race, they would have been improving from day to day. Point out he would ask, the native who had invented auy. thing. They had plenty of imagination, but no invention. The destruction of the power of the great chiefs, he contended, was not owing to their adoption of the Christian fai ! ;h, but to the questions which had been impropotly tacked on, and made part and parcel of that faith, — falie views of slavery, polygamy ; and divorce a pseudo chris. tianity required them, if they would come within the chistian church, that they should cast away there wives, bastardise their children, and release their slaves. After severe inward struggles , many of them did so, an.l the powerful chief of yesterday with a smiling family and a hundred followers, he allude! particularly to the Ngapuhi, was reduced to misery and di«d. He denied that they were an extremely justice loving people, fear only kept them from repudiation. The term nationality had been most misapplied by tha hon. mover. The Maorioa did not know what it, meant, for they had do word for it in their language. They never had such an idea as a separate nationality, nor had they even now. One side of the House thought too much of this nationality bugboa.-, as the other party did of the bugbear of law and order. They were the Scylla and Charybdis of this House, and the only safe course lay between. Nationality was a thing the Natives would scout at. Lower Waikato would not listen to Upper Waikato, and what was it that had tended to depopulate New Zealand— but one tribe rising against another. There was but one modo of making a nationality for them, viz. : — by amalgamation with ourselves. He had heard much said by the hon, member for Ellesmere against the numerous scattered poltry lsttle village runangas, from which he the hon. member had said no good can come. Ho (Mr. Colenso) said that from them all good was to come, and from nowhere else. fc>uch a tiling as a district runanga wa3 ignored by the Natives, but if the village runanga was carefully cultivated it would do good, and from it would ultimately come forth a district runanga As in educating the Natives, he had to begin at

the bottqna. the a b, c, so politically they must begin at the bottom, i.c. — the village runangas. The hon. member had asked how they should prevent the eccentricities of these village runangas, why by putting careful and competent pakeh'as to guide them (Mr. Fitzgerald, that is not in the scheme) perhaps not, but he did not look on the scheme as a cut and dried ons, unalterable aa the laws of the Medes and Persians, (hear). He quite agreed with what had fallen from the hon. member with regard to the establishment of something of the nature of the Encumbered Estates Board, for the disentanglement and individualization of Native title, and years ago. he had endeavoured to impress that the Land Purchase Commissioners should be so employed in their abundant spare time, not for the purpose of buying, but simply to form a record-a doomsday book. The hon. member had truly said that the present state of the natives wa one of distrust; the fact was that they ;had had too much coaxing. The firstresolutionwa3 very good but theyhad heard it times without number, (hear). Whatwexethe words translated for Capt. Hobson to make uae of at the Treaty of Waitangi but these, «« We are now one people.^but this promise had not been fulfilled (hear, hear,) As he took it, the first resolution would do away not only with many useful laws, but with the greater portion of the native policy which they had before them. The second resolution he did not like. He heard continual talk of giving these natives civil and political privileges ; but he hoard nothing said as to calling on them to undertake certain duties and responsibilities. What did the natives care about political privileges ? The resolution would be better amended by the substitution for the latter part of it, a call on them to render a full and. equal responsibility and obedience to all ordinary requirements of the law : that would be nearer theismark' and would, be beginning at the bottom. Taking it as it stood they must pxrri passer look out for the duties and privileges, (hear, hear.) The hon. member had referred to the " abstract majesty of the Queen," and it was that which they wanted to see recognised and upheld, and they would be satisfied. Then as to the third resolution, how could the hon. member make it appear that a recognition of the first and second resolutions would necessitate it ?— it might ultimately call for it ; would pave the way first, but could not necessitate it. He hoped if these resolutions were carried, the hon. member would alter these two words at least substituting, " may ultimately call for," for " will necessitate.' " He could reckon up several basis to prove that the Maories were fairly represented in that House. In his Province some of them were actually on the roll, and voted at elections. They had their champions in the House as was shewn last night, and certainly a fair share of money was voted to them. If their champions thought they were not fairly represented, let them take the constitutional means of getting them more fairly represented, by putting them in a position to be on the rolL, and getting them returned. Why didt hey not begin at the bottom, he asked, and put some of the nativts in the Provincial Councils, and then they might reasonably point to what they had done and ask to have them admitted here. Whon he heard the Superintendent of Canterbury speaking last night, he thought if that hon. gentleman had only had a native returned to hi 3 Provincial Council what a moral effect it would have . it would have done a great deal towards calming the outrageous passions and feelings of distrust which existed. While assured that this scheme sprung from the kindliest feelings in its originator, he thought it Utopian and premature : a long scheme of education was first required. He therefore felt it hia duty to oppose theses resolutions and trusted the Government would listen to him, when he called on them to oppose it also, for if these resolutions were passed and went forth printed in Maori, the natives would only have another stumbling block laid before them, they would ba led to indulge in beauteous visions that would never be fulfilled— hopes that would never be realized and a dreadful reaction would certainly take place. Mr. MOOREHOUSE rose in explanation : the hon. member was under a little misapprehension as to the functions of Superintendents in . the Southern Provinces of New Zealand. It was not generally considered the duty of a Superintendent to proem c the election of members of the Provincial Council, (a lau>h,) Mr. CARLBTON", after paying tribute to the eloquent speech with which his honorale friend had introduced the resolutions before the House, proceeded to observe upon the remarkable ,variation, which had been made in the fifth, since the first giving notice <>f motion. As the resolution originally stood, the policy indicated was to be brought into operation "with the least possible delay." Now it was, " with the least practicable delay." It was certain that the House would not agree to the word " possible," while "practicable" might mean too much, or nothing at all. It it meant that natives should take part in the Government as soon as they were fit for it, and no sooner, no one could object ; the proposition was in the nature of a truism ;if it meant more than that, it could not be agreed to, for it was in contradiction to the resolution of 1858. As some of the new members might ba unaware of that resolution, he would read it to the House.

; - Resolved, that in the opinion of this House, the New Zealand Government ought to endeavour to obtain an opinion from the law officers of the Imperial Government, on the subject of claims to vote, preferred by aboriginal natives under the seventh and forty-second sections of the Constitution Act, whether natives can have such possession of any land that is used by them in common as tribes or communities , and not held under title derived from the Crown, as would xjualify them to become voters under th c provisions of the fore* cited sections ; this with a view to petitiofiiog the Imperial Parliament, or taking other, the prdpec measures, to be relieved from the grave inconveniences and probable dangers to the Government of this country, which are to be apprehended, should it be found that a large body of men, who are destitute of political knowledge, who are mainly ignorant of the language in which our laws are written, and among 1 whom respect for the law cannot be as yet enforced, have bean allowed the right of interference with the enactment of law." [Mr. Bell : — 3y whom was that resolution moved ?] By myself fa laugh). Was it any the worse for that '?' If it had been moved by Satan himself, it would still be a resolution of the House (great laughter). The House might stultify itself by passing two contradictory resolutions, if it pleasei l ; there was nothing to hinder it ; he merely reminded lion, member** of what they were about. The hon. member proceeded to the question of the right of the natives to the elective franchise under the Constitution Act, and argued that they could qualify as householders (though not as freeholder:! ) on lands held by ordinary native tenure. He admit tsd that the law officers of the Crown considered the natives as altogether- duqualified, but thought that the case referred to the Home Government had not been clearly put. He (Jlr. C.) spoke as a practical man, and asked what the were to do with the natives when they got them in the Assembly. The difference of language alone would render it impossible to cany on the business of the House. His hon. friend moved that this House should assent to no laws which did not recognise the right of both races to a full and equal enjoyment of all civil and political privileges. Spsaking a» a practical man again, he would ask the hon. member whether he was prepared to bring in Bills, to repeal-all existing laws which wtrs eo.itradictory to that principle ? If so, he would give him his very hearty support. (The hon. member referred to the Spirits Ordinance, the Arms Act, and the Land Laws). Was the hon. member for Ellesmere prepared to give that practical operation to his resolution ? [i\Tr. FitzGerald : : — Yes.} : He (Mr. C.) did not see how the principle enunciated could be denied, and would have much pleasure iv supporting the first resolution. Mr. If ARRISON,— iSir, with reference to these resolutions I would beg to bring before the notion

of the House a few circumstances connected >vith the subject. Sir. while I readily admit that juslice and humanity alike with sound policy would suggest the urgency of preparing the native mind asspesdilyas possible, for a participation with us of our civil and political privileges, yet I must submit that in the present juncture of Native affairs the introduction of these resolutions is inopportune. Sir, during this debate some hoa members have indulged in gloomy anticipation with respect to the ultimate fate, the doom of the native race. As one of the early settlers I may be permitted in vindication of our conduct and feelings towards the natives at the commencement of the Colony to revert to that period. Sir, on our arrival oh these shores we found ourselves, to our surprise and I may add general disappointment, surrounded by a numerous native population, a shrewd, exacting, encroaching set of unmistakable savages.' In this novel and perplexing situation the settlers manifested a friendly, a forbearing and liberal spirit towards the natives, and irrespective of .any interested motives, were anxious to advance them in the march of civilisation. From that date to the present has been observed on our aide, a system of concessions — on theirs one of exactions. I may refer to the position of affairs at the cessation of hostilities at Taranaki. When the Government with much moderation and patience requested the belligerent natives to be so obliging as to retire to their respective parishes, and to return by way of acknowledgement, a portion of thair booty, as well as to express a regret at having murdered some little children and unarmed settlers (amongst whom were their oldest and best friends) they contemptuously declined. Now, Sir, though this refers only to a portion of those natives engaged in the late war, a portion scattered over some MO miles along the coast, yet their conduct and decisions were defended by a great majority and approved ©r admired by all. I therefore cannot think that this is a seasonable time for discussing the propriety of admitting the natives to a full and equal enjoyment of civil and political privileges. It appears to me Sir, that if the Legislature were to repeal some prohibitory laws and regulations, for instance, that prohibiting the sale of Bpirits to the natives which fails in its object and is generally considered by them, at fijast in this Province, as presenting a humiliating barrier ; also the restrictions which apply to the control of their landa, the removal of these restrictions would be more acceptable to them than a recognition by this House of the principles embodied in these resolutions — principles which would be appreciated by few and cared for by none. Major RICHARDSON referred to the important document which hadbeen recently laid on the Table, and considered that it would be extremely unwisd sad injudicious to press these resolutions at the p:eseut moment. Principles of the highest importance, he acknowledged, had been enunciated by the hon. mover, with an eloquence rarely, if ever surpassed ; but when they came to analyse the resolutions he could not find anything in them worthy of such strains of eloquence. He entreated the House to put aside, if only for this one session, those animosities which had hitherto existed ; and assured the hon. member for Ellesmere that he cordially reciprocated the kindly feeling entertained by him towards the Natives ; but he believed there was a duty which he owed to the colony which should prevent him taking a step, which in calmer moments and after mature consideration they might regret.- The breadth of the principles enunciated had attracted their attention, but there were other things besides the basis which they must look at, as the superstructure to be raised on it, would he thought be impracticable in its nature, and undesirable even if it were practicable. He moved as an amendment the omission of the words, "or the passing of any law." If this amendment wa9 made the resolutions would receive the unanimous approbation of the whole House. Mr. DICK seconded the amendment. Mr. FITZGERALD ; Sir, in/eplying very briefly I will confine myself to making a few observations on a few of the practical points which have been made in the course of thiß dsbate. I shall not notice the many criticisms which have been made merely on expressions which ha >'c fallen from myself, for they ought to have, and will have, very little weight with this House in bringing it to a decision on the great question at issue. I will not pursue the hon. member for Hawke's Bay into the various questions he has raised ; for example, I will not discuss the question of Christian bigamy with him, nor will I venture for a moment to attempt to answer the argument of the hon. member, to which no answer can possibly be given; namely, that it is entirely useless for any one within this House to argue with him upon the Bubject : but I will refer first to the amendment moved by tho hon. member for Dunedin, (Major Richardson.) My hon. friend wants to cut out the words "on the passing of any law" The hon. member for the Bay has said that the resolutions mean nothing, that they are a mere expression of opinion, of which nothing will come: but the hon. member for Dunedin seems to have a sneaking apprehension that something may come of them, and seeing that, wishes to cut away a I great part of their meaning. Now, I hope the House will give me credit for not having brought forward these resolutions for the sake of a mere oratorical display, — I certainly meant them to have a practical effect on the country ; and if they were carried by this House, we could find members on the Treasury bench, who had any faith in. them — I mean these resolutions — to be the era of anew system of Native government in this colony. If you do not mean this, in Heaven's name throw them out. The member for Hawke'a Bay had said they only contain the same language as hal been used by Governor Hobson. I dare say they did ; but, I donotputmy trust in Princess, still less in Governors. The only thing Ido put my trust in, in any government is the well considered, distinctly asC3rtained miad of the people, not given hurriedly but slowly and deliberately, forcing the government to take one distinct line of policy or another— peoples governed by edicts aud enactments proceeding from above havedone them, comparatively speaking, no thing; but the people who are governed by a public opinion emanating from theni■elves are those who he in the past, ani certainly will in the future, rule the destinies of mankind, I reject therefore most distinctly the alterations proposed, because the meaning of it is, that the House shall give a feeble an inarticulate expression of what it had no faith in, and what will go before the natives as a mere sham. Sir, the Native Minister made a speech last night what I listened to with the greatest respect, because I never heard a speech in my life, which was made with greater calculation, greater care, and greater caution, a Bp ech in which every word was most carefully Weighed in order that he might not let dropt one single accidental expression which might in any wiy complicate the ac;ioa of his Excellency's Government. Sir, what after all was the real pith and meaning of that speech ? Why I take it to this — we accept your resolutions as a statement of truth which we are not prepared to deny and which our previous policy , all the expressions of opinion we have indulged in, in former times forbid us to deny, but at the same time wewish to avoid pledging ourselves ever to give any operation at all to these resolutions, .Now I am not prepared to say that the hon. member was wrong standing in an extraordinary position, having only just assumed office, only just mounted the saddle and grasped the reins. My hon. tfriond has I think displayed a caution, discretion, and "judgment, which gives me great hops that if k« could appear before the House six meaths kence, when firmly seated in the saddle, the speech h« would make would be one of a. different character from that which he delivered last night. He would then I believe be prepared to admit that these resolutions may .be carried out into practical effect. But his present argument, as far as 1 understand it was this, that we cannot carry these English laws into native districts, and cannot get tho natives to unite, that they are iv such a state of anarchy that they

can agree upon nothing. Now these were just the things we heard years ago when something of this kind was spoken of, and what is the answer to it ? That the natives agreed upon a king, that there is so much of union in them, however little, that givea them a cause and an object, they are capable of rising above those petty jealousies, and determining on one man to govern them. My hon. friend said the natives we. c in a state of anarchy, and then he virtually proposed to trade upon that anarchy ; to form plans based upon the existence of that state of anarchy. If you have, any hope for these people you must elicit what is lying dormant in their minds a spirit of obedience to a common law. I offer then resolutions to the Government not with a view of iinpoaiug any immediate action on them, but for the purpose of pointing out a distinct principle which has never beeu admitted before by this House, and which I now ask to be admitted for the first time. I want to give these resolutions to the Government to strengthen their hands, to enable them to _ get ' : at that feeling, that element in the Native mind, which is the only one on which they can rear any edifice worthy building. The member for Hawkes' | Bay has said, that in giving these Natives privileges, we ought at tho same time to require them to understand the duties and responsibilities of a civilized state, and my hon. friend near him, (Mr. Carleton), has used an argument which leads to the same result, saying that there was no dispute as to the propriety of giving the Natives these political privileges as soon as they are fit for it. I will answer both those arguments by one reply. It is the same sort of answer as that which we used to make. With regard to the continuing of cruel and bloody laws for the suppression of crime, it used to be thought that the more crime was punished the less there would be, but it was found as a matter of fact, that the more cruelly crime was punished, the more there was to punish. This is a similar case, it is said, do not admit the natives to equal laws and privileges till they are fit for it ; but when in Heaven's name are they going to be fit for it ? ought we to wait till the Naiives understand duties and responsibilities, before giving thorn privileges, history has taught us a contrary policy ; give men privileges and they will soon arrive at a sense of the duties and responsibilities belonging to them, place them in a position of responsibility, and they will soon grow to fitness for the use of it, but keep them out of a position which they ought to fill, and they will never arrive at a sense of their duties or be fit to fill those positions. (Hear, hear). The case of tlie Irish Roman Catholics is a complete example of this fact. So long as they were kept in a subordinate position, you had crime, violence, and a spirit of suppressed opposition which nothing could overcome, but as soon as the barrier was broken down, aud it was said lawless and ignorant as they are and incapable of properly using any political rights, we will admit them to all ; the result we all know. The hon. member for the Bay, used one argument which I am bound to take up ; he has said that if I would repeal the Spirits Ordinance and the Powder Ordinance, he would support the resolutions. The hon. membei'a meaning was this. You have put these ordinances in force. Do you n^ean by these Resolutions to say we are not to have any such ordinances, that we are going to get rid of the Spirit Ordinance and the Powder Ordinance? Most undoubtedly Ido say so, but let them not be supposed to imply that we are to enforce no laws for putting down a spirit of insubordination. W© have had Ams Acts enough in Ireland, but they were made to apply to all alike, as well as to the rich and the poor. When it was said all arms should be stamped, we did not enforce the law against the poor man, and let the landlord go free, but the nobleman had to take his fowling-piece, as well as every one else, to receive the Government siainp. We retained the idea of the supremacy of the laws over all alike. And bo here, if the inhabitants of any district, whether Maori or English, were in a state of insubordination, I would pass laws and put them in force for that district, but that is quite a different thing from saying that the Maori shall not drink spirits and the Englishman shall, or that the Maoiies shall not have arms and powder, and the English shall. What we want, is that a higher idea overlying the whole, shall get into the minds of the Natives, — the idea that there is one law for all men in this country. This is the ely thing which will solve the great mystery. We must get tho Maori to recognize the idea of law, to have confidence in our laws ; and one great means to that end, is to admit him into this House, and so to persuade him, that if we make laws for him, he makes laws for himself and also for ua. The time will then shortly arrive when the Maori will have a thorough and entire trust in our laws, and we shall have no difficulty in enforcing them all over the country. The difference between the Englishman and the Maori, in this matter of respect for law is not a question of the power to enforce. A policeman goes to an Englishman's house, and is recognised as the authority of the law, and obeyed accordingly ; the policeman goes to the Maorie's houie and the Maori does not recognise in him the authority of law, but he recoguises the badge of the submission of his own race to another. The Native does not object to law being enforced, but he resists the idea of being put under submission to another race, which has never given him one tittle of law to guide his actions. But what is wanted is that he should recognise in the policeman a symbol of the laws of the whole of the two united races md to accomplish this we must adopt a large, wise, and bold policy, by which the Native shall recognise, that he his a maker of the laws lor himself and for us, and that he is a part of that fountain of law, of which the policeman is merely the representative or organ. We should then have no difficulty whatever, in carrying our laws through every district, by means of Maori policemen and Maori tribunals ; and in making roads through the whole country. If the House would adopt such a policy as this, and the Ministers would only carry it out, I believe that very soon, but of course I do not ask the House to say how soon, the Native difficulty would be rolved, not in years, hut. it might be in a few months. I have often been asked, do you mean these resolutions to come into operation at once? My answer has been, Ido not want to bind the House to any time but my own opinion is, that one man may bring them into operation tomorrow, another would take years about it ; hence it merely depends on the men you can get to do it.

The question was then put, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question, and carried on the voices. The original resolution was then put and agreed to. Mr. FITZGERALD without remark moved the second resolution.

Major RICHARDSON proposed as an amendment that after the word House, the following words be omitted " will assent to no laws which do not recognize " and the word •' recognise " be inserted.

The amendmeut haying been accepted by Mr. Fitzgerald, the resolution as amended was agreed to.

Mr. FITZGERALD moved the adoption of the third resolution.

Major RICHARDSON hoped that the hon. member having gained every object he could wish by the passing of the first two resolutions, would consent to expunge the third altogether.. Mr. COLENSO opposed this re3olution, as tending to create hopes in the Native mind that could not be soon realized, and as giving rise to too high an estimate of Native character amongst tho people of England. Mr. WELD concurred with the opinion, that as soon as circumstances occurred to make the presence of Maories in the Legislature advantageous, then they ought to be admitted, but it appeared to him, that these resolutions affirmed a state of things that did not exist. It would create a wrong impression to let the idea go abroad that tho Maoriea were hot represented in

this House. (Mr. Fitzgerald, they are not). He contended that to a certain extent they were. Not only had Maories already voted in the return of members of this House, but if their titles were individualised, they could at any time turn the election of the whole Northern Island. It was not the province of this House to say of what race the representatives of this people should be, but so far as the principle of the resolution was concerned, viz, that of affirming the right of the Maories to the privileges of representation, as well as its duties and responsibilities, he quits agreed with it.

VIE. FOX said that if they did not first grant men privileges, they would never learn to exercise them. There were hundreds, and even thouaiids of Natives \viv.> cuull Uscusa abstract poiius in a manner which might enlighten man hon. members, men who would be a credit to any English constituency, and qualified in all respects, except a knowledge ot the English language. If that exception however, was a conclusive argument against their admission, how was it, that French Canadians obtained seats in the Canadian Legislature, or the Dutch Boers, in that of the Cape, neither of whom understood much of the speeches, although the latter at the end of every harangue always cried, " boet, boet, bock" (Laughter.) He thought the time had come when we might with perfect safety, admit members of the Native race into this House, indeed he did not see how they could be excluded now, because if it were true that many of them had already voted a.t elections, in spite of the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, and that the hon. members for the Hutt, Poiirua, Hawkes' Bay, and the Bay of Islands owed their seats in part to such votes, how could it be said that a proposal to make those voters representatives was premature. If a Maori was entitled to vote at an election, he was also entitled to a seat as a Representative, provided he could get elected, and the hon. mover of the Resolution merely asked the Government, to address itself to finding out means by which that race should be encouraged to take an interest in political struggles, and to take their place amongst the representatives of the people. He would vote for the resolution, which waß quite competent to be carried without the addition .o any proviso as to time.

l'he hon. Mr. DILLON BELL agreed with the hon. member for Cheviot that a false impression would get abroad if it were supposed that this resolution meant that there was not at the present moment a fair representation of the maori race in the House. Members he contended sat there as representatives not only of the electors, but of the people of New Zealand, and were as much the representatives of those who had not the franchise, whether maoriea or Englishmen, as the members of the House of Commons were the repi esentatives of the whole people of Great Britain, although he believed the number of electors was not more than a million. If the hon. member said then that there was not a fair representation of the maori, and could not be one under the present condition of things, then he (Mr. 13 ) differed with him, and would be sorry that such au idea should be entertained outside, while on the other hand, his resolutions was intended to express that they should look to the admission of members more directly representatives of the Native race than European members professed to be, then it should have been so stated in precise terms. There was no greater fallicy than the arguments used by a great many who had advocated the exclusion of the General .Assembly from any participation in Native affairs : that the Nativo race wero absolutely without representation in it.and the House should not allow it to be supposed, by a want of expression to the contrary, that that was a sentiment that was echoed there. They ought to profess that they did represent the Native people, and he was ready to go thoroughly with his hon. friend ►that so soon as it thould be practicable in saying they should admit the Maories themselves to take seats in the House, whenever the people were found willing to elect them, and he did not hesitate to say that there were men among the Maori chiefs who were much more competent as regarded intellectual capacity for understanding public affairs, than many of those who had determined by their votes the decisions of this House. (Hear, hear.) When on a previous occasion, the establishment of a Native Council was proposed, he had expressed the opinion that it would be necessary to obtain the assistance of the Native chiefs, and for that reason, as well as what he had urged in the former portion of his speech, he would support the resolution. Mr. uARLE I ON would not be able to vote for the third resolution, because it implied what in his opinion, was contrary to fact — namely, that the natives were not already represented in the Assembly. They were represented, not only in theory, but also in practice. In theory, just as much as every Englishman was represented in the United Kingdom, though but a small proportion of the population had votes. He could not say precisely what was the proportion at present, but the figures were before him for 1851-2. The population of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801 was 37,724,849. The total voters in 1852, were 1,179,103. No one pretended, to say that non-electors were unrepresented in the mother country. And in this colony he refused to recognise any distinction between the Maori and the Pakeha ; like his hon. friend, the member for Ellesmere, he treated all aa subjects of the Queen alike (hear). That the natives were represented in reality, was equally certain. In proof of this he need only appeal to the proceedings of the two last sessions, and ask whether members had not been found to defend native interests as earnestly as if they had been our own, (hear). As to direct representation the fact was, that even now we could not keep natives out of the Assembly if they chose to come in. They could register as householders, if they chose to give up living in common, and register as freeholders, if they chose to accept crown grants. This was the expedient provided by the Ministry of 1858 to provide against the swamping of the European constituency. This was not an exclusion of natives from the enjoyment of the franchise ; a native was free to exchange his Maori title for a Crown title; the machinery was provided; every encouragement given. If so intelligent, or even so worldly wise, as to see his advantage in the exchange, he became almost, if not quite, a fit recipient of the privilege attached. He acquired a stake in the general welfare of the community ; he became personally interested in the maintenance of order, And more than this, — a native who accepted a Crown title did actually feel himself bound to render true allegiance to the British Crown. It was clear to him that a -native had the means of working his way into the House, if ho chose to avail himself of them. But the hon. member for Ellesmere has appeared by his resolution, wa-j of opinion that the means were wanting. Now on that assumption, and speaking again as a practical man, he would ask that lion, member whether he was prepared to follow up his resolution by bringing a Bill into the House, altering the franchise for the purpose. [Mr. FitzGerald : I — Yes.] Everybody was acquainted with the | fable of the carter, who called upon Jupiter to I help him when his cart was stuck fast in the mud; but was advised in answer to clap his shoulder to the wheel. He (Mr. C.) in like manner would recommend the Maori to use the means at his disposal, instead of calling to hw hon. friend Juniper for assistance. He was at all times ready to place the Maori under exactly the same laws as ourselves, and to subject him to no disabilities. But he was not disposed to go beyond that, and to give the native special privileges. Reverting to the question of language, he thanked the hon. member for Rangitikei, (Mr. Fox) for his anecdote of the Duchmen at the Cape, herding together at one end of the House, ana shouting " vot, vot," because they were unable to understand the language in which' the debate was conducted. He would ask that hon. member, whether he really desired to bring their own House to a level so low as that which he had

described. He (Mr. C.) regretted much that he should feel it his duty to vote against the resolu • tion. Mr. DICK thought the Maoris were represented almost exclusively in the House, and that the Native question occupied the time which ought to be devoted to other subjects. He would remind hon. members that there were other things besides land leagues springing up, there was such a cry as " Separation 1 ' gathering force in the South, and all because the Native question was talked over night after night while European interests, would be hurried over at the end of the Session. He was sorry that a Southern member had been made Native Minister as they had quite enough talk from hon. members from the South as well as the North, without getting a Native Minister from among the representatives of the former quarter. He complained that like everything else, the simple question, he had placed on the paper, had been set aside, in favor of the absorbing topic of Native affairs, and would remind the House that| if this course were persisted in they might Boon have a " Separation Flag" hoisted, as well as a " King Flag." Mr. FITZHERBERT reminded the hon gentleman, that ib was a member for the Southern Islands who was at the head of Native affairs. The hon. member for Dunedin (Major Richardson) was asking the hon. mover of the resolutions, to take the very pith and sense out of them, (hear). They were worthy of the great mind of the hon. gentleman proposing them, but if he withdrew this third resolution, he would withdraw the conclusion which he was driving to, by the two previous resolutions. He meant by them to say, do not let us content ourselves with telling the Natives we desire to do good for them, let us practically show that we are prepared to admit them on an equality v ith ourselves. He denied that the Natives were represented; he would ask whether any Englishman would be satisfied with the barren belief that he was represented. If he (Mr. Fitzherbert) understood the spirit of the resolution, it recognised this fact, never had a Native been sitting in this House and recognised their right to be represented by one of their own race. Without some such resolution as this, there was a discouragement to the Natives to come in anp partake of the responsibility and the power wnich members of this House had.

Mr. FITZGERALD replied to the arguments advanced by previous speakers, and contended that the Maoris, aa a race, were not represented in the House. The hon. member for Cheviot had said that the Maoria could always get votes by individualising their titles, and the hon. member for the Bay of Islands was extremely horrified at the idea of extending the franchise in their favor ; but no horror was exhibited by giving the franchise to the diggers, a class who could hardly be called colonists and who were simply birds of passage, it was true that if they individualised their titles and got Grown Grants, they could get votes, but it would be many years before they could do this. He would admit, that it would be exceedingly dangerous, if the representation of the Northern Island should be swamped by Maori votes, but was there any difficulty in cutting off one or two large Maori districts, each to return one or two members ? He did not think at this stage it was proper to force upon the Government any policy whatever, but just to indicate the course they wished adopted *nd leave it to those gentlemen and his Excellency to decide on the best means to carry it out. He was not in the House in 1858, but he believed a Bill termed the ' Native O.Tenders Bill," had been introduced that Session, when the argument was used that the Natives not being represented there, ought to be examined at the bar of the House, which ho understood was accordingly done and several missionaries were also examined for a similar reason. One member had said that they ought to put a Nativo into the Provincial Council at Canterbury, and he thought it very likely that that would be done, aa the titles in the Kaiapoi District being all individualised, the natives might return one of their own race as a member ere the lapse of many months. With respect to the difference of language, he would be just as much satisfied to be judged by tho votes of the natives who did not understand the speeches, as by those of a* great many who did, provided they (the Natives), had the services of a good interpreter, as not only in this House but in the British House of Commons were speaking rarely influenced a division and it was a matter of triumph, that the Native Minister, in a recent speech he had made, should have changed a vote. vVhich then was the best course, should they make a knowledge of the English tongue, an essential to their admission, or put them into the House first, in the hope that it would not be long before they acquired it. Why, if they waited till they had acquired the language before putting them into the House, they might wait until any good that might follow from these or other resolutions, had died out, but once by admission here, let them feel a sense of their loss in not knowing the language, it would spur them on to acquire the requisite knowledge, and it would soon be found that they understood the debates as well as most people. The question was then put on the third resolution and negatived. The division List has already appeared in our our columns. A discussion then ensued, and Mr. Fitzgerald withdrew his resolution.