EVENING SITTING,

Wellington Independent, Volume XVII, Issue 1747, 31 July 1862, Page 3

EVENING SITTING,

Debate resumed.

Mr. JOLLIE said he would go upon the broad principle that this country was now called upon to assume a responsibility which it had never yet enjoyed, and which, circumstances did not justify them in assuming. It was not right that the difficulties attending Native affairs, which were created by the Imperial Government should be thrown on the hands of the settlers. The Colony had now a peace at any price policy laid before it, instead of the terms of" peace made by the late Governor being carried out. The present condition of Taranaki was a standing menace, and if these institutions were to be efficient in binding, concentrating and organising the Natives, they might have the effect of seriously injuring the British inhabitants in the event of a collision. Let the House give the Governor what supplies he required for carrying out his plans, but take as little responsibility as they could.

Mr. WELD agreed with the Colonial Secretary as to the difficulty the colony was placed in, by not having had the management of native affairs from the first. A most unsatisfactory state of feeling had sprung up between natives and set tiers, the fate of the Natives was now trembling in the balance, and the man who could solve the problem, would deserve well of the colony and of the human race. It would be ruin and selfdestruction to .the Natives, if the sole management of Native affairs was given up to this Legislature. They could not take it. It was time to have done with sham phrases. He believed they were bound by every letter of the treaty of Waitangi, but look ou the other side, how many Natives consented to that treaty ? The treaty of Waitangi wa^ a. sham. (Hear, hoar.) The Colonists as a body had never assumed the sovereignty of these islands, but had dimply acted as loyal subjects. He could not therefore consent to take the responsibility of the present state of affairs. With the Home Government was the power and there should be the responsibility also. He therefore fells it to be his duty to oppose the motion, because it left things in much the same condition as before.

Mr. GILLIES after referring to his being the representative of 20,000 British colonists, or onefifth of the wiioie European iuhab.tauts of the colony, said he desired, however, to speak as a ropresentiitive of New Zealaud in its entirety. Ho thanked the hon. member for Ellesmere, "for calling their attention to first principles ; they might fairly illustrate principles by their practical results, bub they should not reason from' peounary results back to falsa principles, if this was a Ministerial questioned Ministers were to resign were his opinions if carried against them, he was not prepared to accept that result. The question of responsibility resolved itself into three distinct positions ; first, that the colony and therefore the Ministry were not responsible for 'Native but Affairs, jjtliut while.diselaiining all responsibility|chcy were willing contribute to the expense; second, That thay accepted all the responsibility and the full management, and trusted the Home Government to contribute to the expanse; and third, the middle course expressed in the resolution before them. The position of Ministers towards the Governor was too shadowy and undefined, their pecuniary responsibility now was only £50,000, but what might it be on a ."uture day, witli another Governor. He denied that the Colonists were trustees for the Native race. Their true course was to disclaim entirely responsibility for Native Affairs, give the largest contribution they could afford for carrying out the Governor's plans, and do all they could towards civilizing those Natives. They had a man of consummate ability in Sir George Grey, and should not throw any obstacles in the wav of hts policy. The time had come for the House to get rid of this incubus, which was resulting in a difficulty which) might one day rend New Zealand asunder. It stung to the core a large portion of the colonists who thought European interests were neglected in a search after doctors for maori evils. On the decision of the House as to this resolution, depended not only the question of Native Affairs, but also all the relations of the colony of New Zealand between its different portions.

Mr. BELL deeply regretted the absence from among them of one whose high intellect and great mind would have been a great assistance at this time. No one who heard Mr. Richmond announce his policy in 1858 conld have failed to be surprised that they should be found desirous to retrace their s?eps. it was vain to say that the circumstances of the colony were altered — that the doctrines then approved were no longer applicable, lie would admit that the circumstances were very much changed trom intestine commotion within themselves. The principles enunciated in 1858 were very different from the principles lie had the — misfortune he was going to say — to hear that evening. It was true that peace then reigned, and war had since raised an ill feeling; nevertheless it waa idle to say circumstances had so changed as to render necessary a departure from the princioles of the acts of lt>sß. It could never be said that any change could relieve them of the esponsibility given them by lhe Briiish Parliament when they gave them their Constution. The word " trustee" had been used — it wus perfectly undeniable that when the Constitution was given them ihey received the right to make laws for all Hhe Majesty's subjects in New Zealand. But he thouget they were altogether going away from the proper consideration of the matter which had been lain before them by the Government. The House was frsghtening itself by a bugbear, which really had no existence evcept in the imag, ination ofsome lion, members, Professing to have some knowledge of native affairs, he felt very strongly on this question. It was in contemplation of difficulties arising when Sir. George Grey would arrive that he laid before tiie General Assembly the resolutions of 1861, upon wiiici Ministers up to this time had acted. He eoull not conceive how any one, — auct more - particularly anj r one qlaced in the position of Native Minister — could not see tlio necessity of coming to some conclusion for its abolition. When lie said ho spoke with no evil disposition, the hon. member (Mr. Weld) would believe him. He said there never could be better men at the head of the Native Otnce. Mr. McLean, Mr. Smith, and Mr. Rogan, were three as good men as could anywhere be found for certain duties, but when it was proposed that the native affairs shouid be transferred to the colonists, they could not understand the feeling which demanded this change. The plan of the

Native office was to do nothing, propose nothing, and let matters take their own course. The moment that the Governor arrived he found the resolutions of 18G1 enabled him to issue his orders with a certainty that his directions would be carried out by his Ministry with the readiness they sometimes require;!. If they now wanted the Governor to take back the old Native office (no, no ; hear, hear) he was quite sure none of those gentlemen he mentioned would enter it. Ho saw no reason why they should revert to an irresponsible native department — that status quo ante which, wad driven back last session • Having passed the resolution last session, and induced His Excellency to tict upon it, how could they now ask him to set on one side the policy it advised. Mr. Bell concluded by reminding the House that whatever conclusion they arrived at, the country would look to them to keep before his eyes his duty to Tarauaki (hear). Major RICHARDSON, after referring to the cruelty of telling the Taranaki sufferers to wait the issue of a policy not yet fairly sketched out, said he could not understand the resolution.' It was utterly unjust for this House to legislate on the Maori question, the treaty of Waitangi having been between the Crown and the Maories — a treaty which was the veriest sham that had ever appeared in the political world of New Zealand. The terms of the Royal Instructions to His Excellency made that resolution an impossibility, for after instructing him to confer with his Executive Council, it said — '-Proviled also thatnothing herein contained shall prevent your exer cising the several powers and authorities aforesaid, or any of them, without tho advice of our said Council, in any case, or upon any occasion, which may be of such a nature that in your judgment our service would sustain material prejudice by consulting our said Council thereupon, and we do authorise you in in your discretion, and if it shall in any case appear right, to act in the exercise of the power committed to you by our said Commission, in opposition to the advice which may in any such case be given to you by the Members of our said Executive Council. Provided nevertheless that in any such case you do fully report to us, by the first convenient opportunity, every such proceeding, with the grounds and leasons thereof." We might thus get responsibility but not power, so the difficulty would not be got over by getting Responsible Government. He thought a generous confidence should be placed in His Excellency, who of all men was best fitted to grapple with the merits of the case.

_ Mr. ATKLN^ON heartily wished that tho question could be settled in a peaceable manner, and the Ministry to have a fair trial. He though), they would best carry out their common object, of saving and elevating the Native race, and meet the wishes of the country, by giving the whole power into the hands of Sir George Grey. Tarauaki members had asked his Excellency for an expression of opinion, on affairs there, when the first thing he said in reply was " That it was very douotful whether with responsible advisers he ought to have received the deputation." Now the Governor having told him that it rested with the House and the Ministry, to decide on the Taranaki queslion, where was the Imperial initiation and decision reserved to Sir George Grey ? The Home Government had sent him to do the work, and he ought to set about it unfettered. He was sorry to hear the Colonial Secretary say, that he was satisfied with^ho piesent aspect of affairs. It was most painful to read the printed report of officers, which brought to view a state of Native Affairs — such as rendered it hopeless for this or any other Ministry to deal with — they would require to be handed over to a single mind to direct the whole, •

Mr. J. C. RICHMOND could not give a silent vote on the present occasion, yet if this were to be more than the beginning of the end. he should give his vote with regret and anxiety. The speeuhos he had heard wore very conflicting, and the}' had been talking too much of machinery, when the question was one of power. Jn this colony there were two powers — that of the Empire, represented by the Governor and the Imperial troops: and tiiat oi' the colony by this Legislature and the power of the pur.se. We were at a critical period of our history, and it was absolutely necessary to have the active power in the colony single, The only way he saw to attain this, would be that the colony should voluntarily, for the time, lay down its power of negativing the Imperial action, by voting any reasonable sum of money to be placed at His Excellency's disposal. In adopting this course, the Colony would have declared beforehand that the Governor was supreme, but he agreed with the hou. the Colonial Secretary, that even by sucli action they could not fix the Imperial Government to make good their expenditure. There was no escape from this kind of responsibility. 1 1 was the moral responsibility that we must seek to make one. He thought that we best fulfilled our duty now by confiding our share of power into the hands of the Governor, and only reserving te that House the function of general criticism.