Gaming Inquiry Off Course Betting

Wanganui Chronicle, 8 March 1947, Page 5

Gaming Inquiry Off Course Betting

Sportsmen’s Secretary Gives Evidence (Press Association) WELLINGTON, March 7. Continuing his evidence before the Gaining Commission this afternoon, Mr. H. H. Clegg, secretary of the Dominion Sportsmen’s Association, said there would be a possibility of odds being reduced if there were only one bookmaker in a small town. With good telephone connections a bettor could lay with an operator in another town. Hundreds of doubles charts from Wellington went all over New Zealand. Mr. C. S. Thomas, for the Trotting Conference, asked: With 23 bookmakers now in Stratford, but only one licensed under your scheme, who will the public bet, with if the remaining bookmakers decided to stay in the business and pay better odds than the licensed man? V itness replied that he thought bettors would prefer to bet with a licensed man.

Mr. Thomas: Odds given here are starvation compared to those given for doubles in Australia? Witness: Sometimes there are scores oi horses on Australian charts and the odds range from 16 to 10,000. Witness did not think that the success oi the scheme he proposed would mean a diversion oi money from the totalisator if so much money is coming for a particular horse it will find its way back to the machine, he explained. Mr. Thomas: So you will use the totalisator when it suits you, and work against it when it does not? Witness: I have never thought of it as working against the totalisator. ASSOCIATION’S EMPLOYEES. To Dr. Mazengarb, for the associated Churches, witness said his association had a staff of two in Wellington, five in Auckland, two in Christchurch, <.nd two in Dunedin. There were also two field agents regularly and four or five casually; also six outside distributors in Wellington. The total employees would be about 30 and the annual wages bill about £3OOO. His association rented four telephones in Wellington, four or five in Auckland, and two or three each in Dunedin and Christchurch. The telephones were unlisted because they did not want the punters always ringing for dividends. The 337 members would all have telephones. Without them neither the association nor the members could provide the service they did.

Illegal betting on horse racing was estimated at £24,000,000 yearly. He thought betting would remain stationary at about £40,000,000 yearly if his scheme was adopted. That included around £14,000,000 totalisator turnover. He knew of no bookmakers with nine telephones. Dr. Mazengarb: Then why, if you say betting will remain stationary, did you provide in your scheme for license fees based on a scale up to nine telephones? Witness: I thought the business would go into legalised channels, and some licensed men* would want more telephones. The whole of the business of his association, witness added, was done by > telephone. The Wellington office spent £3O monthly on tolls. Dr. Mazengarb: Will Jpu produce your last two months toll account? — Yes. Witness said he was sure the department knew what his association# business was. At least two association bi*anches bad direct lines to the broadcasting studios in Wellington and Christchurch. One of the staff of radio 2ZB had approached him about connections. The association paid nothing for these telephones. The association neither paid, nor was paid for, the privilege of connections. He thought any other individual could get results irom courses. Generally speaking results came through quickly. If there was to be a delay, say a quarter of an hour, a call was made urgent. No request was made for a line until after the race started. The association took the subscriber’s chance. Mr. Mazengarb: Whose desire is it that the results be broadcast early?— Our members want it as »jon as they can get it. They want to know their liabilities at the earliest. Dr. Mazengarb: So lhe broadcasts really suit your members? Mr. Justice Finlay saidf The explanation is that the members want it urgently, and the broadcasting authorities, knowing that, took advantage, and got results Jor their own purposes as well. Dr. Mazengarb. Your members want their customers to know early, as it affects the betting of the next race. Witness: The customers want to know. If a demand on a broadcasting studio to stop playing a record and give the result was made, it was not in Wellington, but perhaps in Auckland, said witness. Palmerston North was a dosti ibuting centre whose agent went each Saturday and operated from a telephone hired from a subscriber for the day. Dr. Mazengarb referred to the passage in a recent book stating that telephones for bookmakers were sought by an agent of the association without

any departmental inquiry as to the ■business of th e person at whose premises the connection was being made. Further, an account was paid by the association, which also paid a utility fee of fl weekly to ensure that applications were dealt with expeditiously. Witness said he was surprised at this. He had no knowledge of it. The fee referred to did not appear in the Auckland balance-sheets. Letters containing dividends were sent to the Prime Minister's Department each Saturday night for the last two years. The information was sought by an officer of the department and supplied free. He thought most members paid income tax. Whether they supplied returns or they were ascertained by departmental officers he did not know. Dr. Mazcngarb: Will you let us see the profit and ioss account and bal-ance-sheet of your association?—l don’t think I object to your seeing it. His Honour said that witness could not be compelled to produce it. Witness: Then it had better stay in my office. He added that the association was against more race dates, because there were enough now and ampl e opportunity to get on Saturdays. It was opposed to mid-week racing, even if it resulted in more offcourse betting. Dr. Mazengarb: If the telephones now supplied to your association and its members were disconnected, would it not greatly reduce the volume of Illegal betting? Witness: If they were disconnected we would take immediate steps to get others, not necessarily in our name. COMMISSION TO BOOKMAKERS. It was true bookmakers had agents in shops, but he knew of nine in factories or working littr. Commission was Is to Is Gd in the pound. He had no idea how many agents there were. There might be two bookmakers outside the association for one inside. Ther e would be more than 600 bookmakers. He had heard of post-dated cheques being accepted for betting debts. He wanted to prepare • “black list,” but the members would not have 11. The association did not pay fines imposed on members. He had no knowledge of any applications being made for remissions of fines on members. Mr. Justice Finlay: Do you think n desirable, in the public interest, that the living of a considerable number of persons should depend on the result of sporting events? Think it aver and give me your answer after the afternoon tea adjournment. Witness: I think that if the ‘ sport was left clean and properly controlled, and there was no corrupt work in any shape or form, it is quite right for an individual's livelihood to depend on the result not sport. His Honour: The weakness of that answer i s that it assumes an impossible condition, because the fact of living being dependent on the result supplies a motive for corruption. No one would suggest the sport is entirely clean now, despite the efforts made. "'Je-examined by Mr. Leicester, Clegg said that off-course bettors mostly backed a few horses in a race, so there was little betting on the outside through bookmakers. Mr. Justice Finlay: It is no use to back an outsider with a bookmaker because of limits.