HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY.

Wananga, Volume 5, Issue 45, 9 November 1878, Page 558

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY.

SUPPLY. The House went into committee of Supply.

Class Vll.—Native Department. Salaries and contingencies, £16,887 ss. Mr. Sutton asked the Native Minister whether he did not think the Natives might not very well be expected to pay for their own medical officers. Nearly all the medical officers provided for in the estimates might be struck out. Mr. Sheehan would rather increase "the number than strike any off. When the bulk of the Native people were able to read and write English, these officers might be dispensed with ; but at present it would be impossible to do so. Dr. Henry called attention to the salaries of two Assessors in the Waikato District, one of whom received £4OO a year, while the other only got £SO a year. Why was this difference made ? Mr. Sheehan—Because one had little or no work to do, whereas the other was about the most trusted and useful officer of the Government in the Waikato. Mr. Gisborne wanted to know why the interpreter to the Legislative Council got £2OO a year, when the interpreter to the House of Representatives only got £BO a year. There did not appear to be any provision for the employment of the former officer during the recess. H 6 was also disirous of obtaining some explanation as to the duties of the Civil Commissioners. Tli-re was one at Auckland, and another at Tarana'i, but none at Napier although there was a very large Native population there! Were these gentlemen men-ly Native agents of the Government at these places? If so, could not they be done away with, or put under somo other title which would require a smaller salary ? Mr. Sheehan replied that the interpreter of the Legislative Council worked in the office during the n cess, and received nothing additional to his salary for his special duties in the Legislative Council, those duties being exceedingly small. With regard to the Civil Commissioners, that was a title which ought really to be obsolete, as tho law under which they were appointed had ceased to exist. They were purely Native agents. He might say, with regard to the Civil Commissioner at Auckland, that that gentleman was also a Resident Magistrate, and travelled to districts north of Auckland, and there heard Kuropean as well as Maori ing in this respect, the Government would do so. Mr Bowen said the Commissioner at Auckland was supposed to travel to the districts north of that place, but in reality used not to do so. His (Mr. Bowen'sJ attention had been drawn to the matter when he was in office and a great desire had been expressed by the people of those districts to have visits from a Resident Magistrate. Mr. Sheehan said when he came into office objections were made that this gentleman did not travel through the districts referred to, but he was doing so now. He acknowledged it was a question whether some reduction in the expense connected with this officer might not be made, and he would take the matter into consideration as soon as the House rose. Captain Russell would like to know why no salaries were put down for the schoolmasters at Pakowha! and Omahu this year, although there had been last year. He was aware the schools were closed at present, but it would be well to re-open them. Mr. Sheehan said the school at Pakowhai had been sed for two years, and that at Omahu for a year. He ..ad that day taken steps to re-opon the former, and if he succeded he would make provision for the salary of the schoolmaster. M.r. Kelly would call attention to the fact that no provision was made for the establishment of schools in Taranaik, which was thickly populated with Natives. It was very desirable that an attempt should be made to establish Native schools there. He hoped the Native Minister would attpnd to thp matter during the recipe. ££r, Shaeban said he had, during his recent vigjfc to th»

West Coast, brought this matter before the Natives at every meeting he held with them. The fault lay with the Natives themselves that there were no schools in th. district ; but he believed they were arriving at a hotter state of feeling now. Although there was no sum placed on the estimates, he would take upon himself, with the consent of his colleagues, to establish schools should an opportunity arise ; and lie had no doubt the House would, next year, sanction the expenditure. Mr. Sutton asked whether " General contingencies" covered the expenses of the various meetings between the Native Minister and Premier and the Natives in the Waikato and at Waitara. He found, on looking over the* document which purported to contain an account of what look place at those meetings, and which had been laid on the table of the House, such items of expense as thirty drayloads of provisions drawn by two hundred bullocks. Then the House was given to understand that the Government had erected the buildings in which the meetings were held, and went to considerable expense in other waj's. Did all this come out of " General contingencies" as he saw no other provision for it? Mr. Sheehon replied that in this respect the present Government had not departed from the practice of their predecessors. The vote to which the honorable gentleman referred did cover these expenses. Ministers were bound to meet the Natives, and did so as economically as they could, but of course had to incur some large expens s. If necessary, he would be prepared to submit the details of the whole of this expenditure to the House, when he knew that the House would give him a clean sheet. The drayloads of provisions to which the honorable gentleman referred were supplied, by the Natives themselves, and not by the Government. Of course the Government gave their contributions in this way, and also erected the buildings in which the meetings w«re held ; but that at Waitara was so cheaply put up that Rewi declined to meet in it, saying •he was not accustomed to being received in a fowl-house, and indeed a great part of it fell down on those who were inside. Mr. Taiaroa wished to know what provision was to be made for a correspondent at Dunedin to the Native Office, as lie saw the item was struck out this year. Mr. Sheehan said it was intended to send an officer from the Native Department down amongst the Nativesin the South, and with him, some Native lads, who were now being taught in the office, and were rapidly picking up the English language. The officer sei.t down would assist Mr. Watt, the .Resident Magistrate, who. he might take the opportunity of siying, had never drawn a salary for doing this work, a'.thought the House had voted it. Vote, £16,857 55., agreed to. Nativo Schools, £14,500. Mr. Murray objected to the increase in the capitation allowance to these schools, and wanted to km»w why it was that, while the House deprecated religious teaching in European schools, it should contribute to that class of teaching in Maori schools. He referred more particularly to the Te Aute School, which had very valuable endowments in land. The administration of that Trust was enquired into by Committees of both Ilouses last year, an.i it was found that it had not been conducted in a satisfactory manner. The Government was recommended to enquire into the whole matter, with a view oE putting the Trust under the charge of some permanent department of the Government, and that the lease of the estate should be h t by public tender. The recommendation of the Committee was not carried out. and the estate had been jeas<'v!, without auction to the previous tenant, who was nlfcc. r-.hoohnaster for the Trust. He hoped it had been It in such a way as to secure the fullest amount of rent ; and, if so, it would not be neeessarj- to" vote any capitation for the institution. It was wrong for the State to

contribute towards any denomination to teach their sectarian views, whether it were to Europeans or to Maoris. Mr. Sheehan said this was not a time for discussing th» : question of denominationalism or secularism. These wen* special cases, and the House ought to be very'thankful that persous were to be found who would take upon them* selves the education of Native children. It wonld not bo wise to get up a discussion on the Te Ante Estate then, and it" the honorable member wished to do so he ought to' introduce a distinct motion on the subject. With tb« exception of the Te Aute Schools, St. Mary's, and St. : Stephen's none of these institutions had a shilling of endowments ; and, so far from feeling called upon to' defend these allowances, he only rtrretted that they were so small, because, as he had already stated in his Nativtr Statement, the system of dealing with the Natives must fail unless the Government could get as many Native children as possible educated in these establishments. He would have to ask the House for further facilities in this respect when the Supplementary Estimates were brought on. Ho admitted that there had been some mal-ad-ministration of some of these institutions in the past, but all were now endeavouriag to accomplish the object for which they were established. He would not be disposed to object to the Native Department taking over the control of all these establishments, but that was not the time to discuss the question, as the Committee was.only being asked to vote the amount necessary for the year. Mr. Hunter would refer members of the House to three reports printed and circulated last session. In every instance the reports stated that the institutions were satisfactorily managed. Mr. Murray would ask the honorable member if it wert* true that the" To Aute property had been let privately to the same person who held it before. Mr. Hunter did not think it necessary to answer any such question. Mr. Murray said if that were the case he thought it was his duty to see whether £2OO should be voted to that Trust. They had been told that uuder the management of the gentlemen to whom the property had been let privately the institution was a sort of " Dotheboys Hall" arrangement. They had been told that the sons of Maori wentlemen who had given this munificent endowment attending this school were sent out to gather mauure for this farmer's fields. If the honorable momber would not sjive a satisfactory answer he would regard it as his duty to refuse to give any more public money to the institution ; but on the assurance of the Hon. the Native Minister that the continuance of such abuses would not be permitted, he only refrained from doiug so at this time. Mr. Sheehan said the Government paid £2O a year for ten boys at Te Aute, and had a right to send, thirty boyt. He heped the Native children would not be made .to suffer by striking r>-t the vote. . :•_... Mr. Fitzvoy asked for an explanation of the item £SOO for the education of sons of chiefs. Mr. Sheehan said this item was very useful.. It enabled the Government to pick out lads of promise-. and_acknowr ledged rank in their respective tribes,,and to.give them, a chance of attendiug the .leading schools.... They would then go back truly competent to lead th*. Native people it\ the way of civilization. . . . ./.-., Mr. Wallis asked for an explanation ->i th«s increase m the salaries of teachers of .Native schools. He oOseiYod that there was a large increase this year. Mr. Taiaroa thought the salaries of teachers of Natj.ye. schools should be increased, U-cause they could thus get better teachers. .How coul'i ihay expect.a, man aadhlf wife to live at a distant pUco on £l5O a year? Their* was a gentleman appointed at Qtago Heads who was/* very good teacher, and ho was only obtained by the salary. Ho taught European pupils at thV#co©oV- AS

boVS, and the won." "Why were they afrftfiTto gffwan; to crease of salary to these men ? They were BuTt>p«i«h"B""tney' were" paying the money to ; they were.not paying it to the Maoris at all. He hoped they would not reduce this vote, as it went in the direction of two races, which was an object they ail desired to attain. He thonght the vote of £SOO, which had been referred to, should be increased, so as to allow the Native youth into better schools. Mr: Wakefield said that last year a question was raised as to the character of the teachers in Native schools, and the Native Minister promised to take the subject into consideration daring the recess. He would like to hear the result of those enquiries, and whether the Government bad any guarantee that those officers were suitable for their positions. Mr: BKeehan said_ that the process of weeding out had been going on daring the recess, and a great many new men bad been employed. With regard to what had fallen front Mr*. Taiaroa, he was sure the House would pardon the digression the honorable member had made, inasmuch as the honorable member himself had taken a warm interesirin the school in his district. With regard to the increase in the salaries of the teachers, he would point cat that in many cases they had to perform their duties at ft loiig distance from civilization, and often had to live on the ■ordinary fare of the Maoris. That alone would be a sufficient reason for an increase of salary; but he thought be read the intention of the House last session rightly when be resolved to get good men by giviug them good-salaries. Vote, £14,600, agreed to. " Native Lands Frauds Prevention Act, 1870," £320, agreed to. Wairarapa 5 per cent. Land Purchase Account, £l5O, agreed to. .