The Waka Maori. WELLINGTON, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 1876. PARLIAMENT.

Waka Maori, Volume 12, Issue 21, 17 October 1876, Page 249

The Waka Maori. WELLINGTON, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 1876. PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE.

Wednesday, 13th September, 1876. MAORI REPRESENTATION BILL.

Mr. Taiaroa, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it was not a new measure, as it had been introduced before, and its object urged upon the House for several years past. As this was a new Parliament, he thought it was well that it should give careful consideration to the subject. The Bill had been printed and circulated, and he would not take up much time in explaining it, as, no doubt, honorable members had made themselves acquainted with its provisions. He thought it would be a very good thing if the House were to consent to the request made by the Maoris that their representation in the House should be increased on account of the tribes, their families and individuals being so numerous. He considered that the Maori population of the North Island amounted to about 42,000 or 43,000 souls, but they were only represented in the House by three individuals. Therefore, he thought it would be a just thing for the House to consent that there should be five members to represent the Natives in the North Island. He also asked the House to agree to give two members to the Middle Island. The Maori population of the Middle Island numbered about 2,000 or over, and the Natives of that island paid exactly the same duties as the Europeans did. He asked for an additional member for the Middle Island, because he was its only Maori representative, and it was impossible for him to go over the whole district and ascertain the views of the different hapus and tribes. He urged this strongly upon the House, because there were three Maori members in the House representing the North Island, and there were two in another place also belonging to the

North Island, making in all five, while there wag only one member from the Middle Island in the House, and none in the Legislative Council. It would only be fair, therefore, for the House to consent to what he asked for. The districts were given in the Bill. He asked for one member for the Northern District, one for Waikato, one for the Bay of Plenty, one for the "West Coast District, one for the Eastern District, a new member for the northern part of the Middle Island, and one for the Southern District. He would not waste the time of the House by going further into the Bill. He trusted that those members present who supported it last year would support it again. The measure was lost last session by only _ three votes. The Minister for Native Affairs said he would be very glad to have a member elected to represent the Waikato District. He hoped the House would not reject his Bill at this stage, but allow it to go into Committee and there out the question about the members, so that they might ascertain what members out of the seven would be approved of. He of course advocated the whole seven being agreed to. If justice was to he done to the Natives, the proper way was to give them more representatives. If the House rejected the proposition to have seven members, and still limited the number to four, that would not be justice towards the Natives. This request was not for himself individually. There were many petitions that came in every year to that House asking for a very large increase of Maori representation, but nothing had been done yet towards granting the prayer of .those petitions. He thought he was right in saying that if Europeans had sent in those petitions, their prayer would have been granted. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill. Mr. Whitaker did not oppose the second reading of the Bill, and would offer no objection to its introduction into Committee, but he thought it would he injudicious to pass the Bill this session. The Act on the subject which at present existed would remain in operation until the 10th October, 1877. It was the intention of the Government during the recess to consider the question of representation generally to consider all those laws which had reference to the representation of the people, amongst which would be the electoral law. He thought that the Maori representation had never been upon a fair and proper basis, but that the present was an inopportune time to increase the number of members, because it might hamper the Assembly next session in dealing with the subject. Therefore, when the honorable gentleman had got his Bill into Committee, he would suggest that it should be withdrawn, on the understanding that the Government would next session fairly and fully consider the question of representation as affecting the Native people. Captain Russell could not see what possible good would be done by allowing the Bill to go into Committee with the avowed intention of throwing it out on the third reading. He did not at all approve of the principle laid down in this Bill, and could see no possible reason for increasing the number of Native representatives from four, as fixed in 1867, to seven in the year 1877. Looking also at the preamble of the Act of 1867, he saw that the circumstances were now considerably modified. The preamble stated, —• It is expedient, for the better protection of the interests of Her Majesty's subjects of the Native race, that temporary provision should be made for the special representation of such of Her Majesty's

Native subjects in the House of Representatives and the Provincial Councils of the said colony." o.f the Native people of the colony had had ten years' representation, it might very fairly be said that the temporary measure which was passed in 1867 had become something more than temporary in its operation. The causes which operated in 1867 might have been such as to require that the Natives should have special representation in the House. But 'the greatest blessing they could confer upon the Native race would be to place them as far as possible on the same footing as Europeans. He would be happy at any time to assist in assimilating the position of the Natives with that of the Europeans. He had lived for many years in the colony, and had seen a great deal of the Natives, and he had' a strong regard for them. Any action he might take with regard to this Bill was not prompted by any ill-feeling towards the Natives. He believed the best thing they could do was to place them in exactly the same position as Europeans; to confer the same responsibilities and the same privileges upon them as Europeans had. If they did that, the desire which every member of the House had, even including the Maori members themselves—namely, that the two races should become one people—would bo to some extent accomplished. For that reason principally he objected to the Bill. Mr. Hamlin said it was his intention to support the second reading of the Bill; and more than that, he would support its passing through Committee, in order that it might become law. Instead of the honorable gentleman who introduced the Bill only asking for seven Maori members, he should have asked for twelve or fourteen, when probably the Maori representation would be placed on an equal footing with the European representation in the House. There had been Maori representation in this House for some years, and it was now time that that representation should be continued and increased or abolished altogether. In that case, the question to be considered would be this: Has the Maori representation been of good service, or productive of bad results? He thought it would be agreed that the very fact of allowing Natives to take part in the business of that House, and assisting in the good government of the colony, had been of very great importance indeed; and he was very sorry that the honorable gentleman who brought forward the Bill did not ask for eight members, instead of seven. He would point out where that honorable gentleman had, to some extent, slighted a district. He alluded to the important district of Waikato, which was bounded between the Kaipara Harbour and the River Mokau. Considering the immense population or Natives that exist there, he thought it would be only graceful on the part of that House to extend to the Natives in the Waikato District the privilege of sending two representatives to Parliament. He would have great pleasure in assisting the honorable gentleman to carry the Bill through; and when the proper time came, he would move that the word "eighfl" should be inserted instead of " seven," and that two members should be given to the Waikato District instead of one. Mr. Rolleston said he intended to vote against the second reading of the Bill. He was quite satisfied that if the Maoris got more members, and got that power in the House which the extra number of votes would give them, it would not work for their own good. He believed that the experiment, so far as it had been tried, had not failed. It was only a temporary experiment which was tried with the

Maoris pending the time they had an opportunity of learning the English language, and of identifying themselves with the Europeans. They had had special representation for ten years, and he thought they should have it to the same extent for five years more. Credit was due to the Native members for the manner in which they had abstained from using their influence in the House. He thought that the Maoris should have a Council of their own, in which their own deliberations with regard to their own affairs would assume such a form that they might be considered by the different branches of the European Legislature. He conceived that the Maoris might well have a Maori province in that part of the country which they themselves held, and he believed that would be found to work well. Captain Mobbis would vote for the second reading of the Bill, as coming from the largest Maori district in the colony, and knowing the feelings of the Natives of that district. They felt that they were inadequately represented in the House. He had heard from many people that the members of that House really did not represent the country, because they did not represent the mass; but there were 40,000 aboriginal inhabitants of the country, and he thought no one would attempt to tell him that they were adequately represented. He said they were not, and by passing this Bill the House would only be giving an instalment of justice to the Native race, which had been withheld from it. The honorable member for Avon said that the Maori representatives within this House had hitherto done good service, and thought they should have seats for five years longer. Surely, if they had done so well, it was an argument in favour of increasing their number. The Maoris were not so stupid as not to know that within the walls of this Assembly they must make all their grievances known and uphold what they considered to be for the advantage of their own race. As to the establishment of a Maori province, he did not see how that could be done. Where were the funds to come from to carry it on ? He simply asked for justice to the Maoris. He had lived amongst them for many years, and knew their wants. The honorable member for Napier gave, as one of his reasons for voting against the second reading of this Bill, that the Maoris were able to vote for both Pakeha and Maori members of this House. There were thousands of acres of their land to which the European title had not been granted. The Maoris availed themselves of the privilege of voting for Pakeha members. He was very largely concerned in the Maori votes in his own district, and he felt it to be his duty to lay the state of their case before the House. He was very glad to hear from the Government benches that they intended to consider this matter more fully during the recess, and he hoped that more justice would be done in the direction of increasing the representation. He quite agreed with the honorable member for Franklin in saying that an extra member should be given to what was called the King country. If they did not like to send their greatest chief, or one of their chiefs, to this House, they might depend upon it that some representative would be sent from that district. He would vote for the second reading of the Bill. Mr. Nahe would support the second reading of this Bill. It was a matter which had long ago been brought forward by the Natives, who requested that their representation should be increased. It had been since the Maoris had been represented here by four members that they had thought fit to ask for additional representation. Since he had come to

this House, lie had seen the false position in which he had been placed in respect to the district which he came here to represent. To a great extent, he was ignorant of the different localities which the people inhabited. "When Native petitions for the district went before the Native Affairs Committee, he was asked by the Chairman what he knew about them, and he was sorry that he was ignorant of much that went on in different localities in his district. He hoped the House and the Government would consider this question now, because all but three consented to it last year. He was glad to see the member for the Waikato taking his place as a member of the Government, because in some remarks he made he referred to the small number of Maoris who were in this House. It was well that he had joined the Ministry, and that he would support others of them in obtaining what was for the benefit of the Natives. It was not because the Natives had a great deal of knowledge that they had large districts assigned to them. The Europeans were educated and knew a great deal more, but their districts were very much smaller. The honorable member for Napier objected to this Bill because the Maoris had voted for the European as well as the Maori members. He (Mr. Nahe) had said on one occasion in this House that it would be well to do away with the qualification possessed by Maoris of voting for Europeans. Perhaps they might be allowed to have the same qualifications as Europeans at some future time, when all the laws are exactly the same for both races. He hoped the House would support this Bill. Mr. Stout supported the second reading of the Bill, and Mr. Wakefield opposed. Mr. Eowe said it was his intention to support the second reading of the Bill, and he would do so in the hope that the Bill would be carried through this session, as, in his opinion, justice would not be done to the Native people unless their representation was increased. The honorable member for Avon said, " Give them a Native county, a Native province, and give them a Native Council." They wanted the Native people and the Europeans to become one race, and yet they were going to bring that about by drawing a line of distinction between them. Let the Natives have a province of their own and a Council of their own, and how were they then to be brought together with the Europeans if the Natives were to be allowed to have a province of their own and a Council of their own? They would only have equal privileges and become one people when all met together in that House upon equal terms. He trusted the day was not far distant when the Maoris would have equal representation with the Europeans, and that when they came to that House they would address it in the same tongue as Europeans. The Government must try to educate the Maoris up to that. He had felt deeply gratified since he had been in the House to see the conduct of the Maori members. He had no hesitation in saying they had spoken as intelligently and voted as independently as any other members of the House. It was therefore the duty of this House to extend to them the privileges they sought—privileges which he knew they highly valued; and in that way union would really be brought about between the two races. It had been said by some, " But the Maoris have a vote. Why should they not exercise their vote in the same way as Europeans ?" He would ask those honorable gentlemen whether they supposed that, if the Maoris were denied other privileges than that, they could in any district return a Native member? If that was the only privilege they were to have, and if they could not return members of their own under a separate Representation Act, he did not believe at

the next election a single Maori member would be returned to the House. He would regard that as a very great calamity indeed, because it would tend to separate the races rather than unite them. Several other honorable members spoke on the subject, some in favour of the Bill, and some against it, all however agreeing as to the intelligent and independent attitude of the Native members in the House. We should like to give these speeches in full, but we have neither time nor space to do so. Sir D. McLean* was exceedingly glad this subject excited so much interest in the House, more especially as he had had to do with the passing of the original Act. He believed it was necessary that the Maoris should be represented in the House, as not only were they taxpayers, but the laws affecting them were passed by this Legislature. In many instances his experience led him to notice, in different parts of the country, that the strongest reasons which the Natives at one time had for not obeying the laws were now very much overcome by the fact that they had representation in this House. Formerly they objected to laws which they had no voice in making. . He was perfectly satisfied that the result of that representation had been, on the whole, very successful. He did not say that a separate Council for the Natives, such as the honorable member for Avon referred to, would not have even been more successful. He believed that such a Council would have a more extended influence. He believed that, if a number of chiefs representing various parts of the country were present at such a Council, their grievances would be brought fully and fairly before this House, and they would have a better representation of the feelings of the Natives than under the special system now existing. He felt certain that the only means by which they could arrive at a fair representation of the Native race was to encourage as much as possible the rising generation to acquire a knowledge of the English language. That would surely place them on a common footing with the European population. It was useless to expect that, under the present circumstances of the Native race, they could have equal laws with the Europeans while their circumstances were not equal. "When they considered how different in ideas and language the two races were, it would be seen that in one generation it was not possible that they could remove the prejudices existing between them. He thought the only way to remove the difficulty was to provide the means of education and of acquiring the English language. The House had always responded liberally to demands for that object, and it would be satisfactory to honorable members to know that at the present time there were not less than from 1,500 to 1,800 Native youths rapidly acquiring a knowledge of the English language, and as rapidly conforming to European habits and civilization. It was considered at one time that no system of education which was not carried on in boarding schools, and at a distance from Native villages, would be successful. But he thought the system followed at present, although it might be faulty in some respects, was on the whole very successful. The children were instructed at the Native villages, and on their return from school they imparted some of their acquired knowledge even to their parents and grand-parents. He had himself seen hoary-headed old men listening with the greatest attention to the words of a child of six or seven years of age repeating something he had learned at school. So far they saw that the English language and ideas were fast permeating the Native race, and he hoped the House, with its usual liberality, would continue to vote the necessary supplies for

carrying out that system of education which, would enable them to place the Natives and Europeans on a common footing. As the Postmaster-General had stated, during the recess the Government would consider a measure of representation affecting not only the Natives, but also the Europeans. He thought the wisest course for the honorable member to pursue would be to get the Bill read a second time, and then allow it to be considered by the Government during the recess. It could then be carried in a more intelligible form next session, and the Native population would be fully convinced that the House entertained friendly feelings towards them, and recognized that they had a right to further representation. On these grounds, he should support the second reading. Sir G. Grey said he would vote for the second reading of the Bill, and do his utmost to carry it through all its subsequent stages. He said the Natives were not fairly represented at the present time; they should receive representation proportionate to the whole population. Mr. Taiaboa said he was not able to tell the House that he would cease to proceed with the Bill after the second reading. He wanted the Bill to go into Committee, and to be dealt with there—either to be carried through or rejected. He hoped the House would carry through the Bill in all its stages. He wished to refer to something that occurred in the year when the honorable member for Timaru opposed the then Government. In that year, the Act providing for the representation of Natives in the House had come to an end. The honorable member for Timaru asked the Governor (Sir G. Bowen) to grant a dissolution of Parliament, and Mr. Katene and himself (Mr. Taiaroa) looked at the Act, and saw that if the Parliament were dissolved then no Maoris could be returned to Parliament again. They went to Government House early in the morning, at eight o'clock, before the Governor was up, and asked him not to grant the request of the honorable member for Timaru; and the Governor was very glad they had gone there before the honorable member for Timaru, and he did not grant a dissolution. If this matter were left to be dealt with next year, and a dissolution took place before the end of the year, what would become of the Maori members ? He supposed they would be expected to go early in the morning and wake the Governor up again. Therefore he asked that, even should the House not agree to grant the additional representation, they would at any rate pass that portion of the Bill providing for a continuance of the representation. He thought honorable gentlemen were wrong in saying that Native representation was adopted as a mere experiment, and that the members should be treated like a Maori woman who was taken up by a European, and who, when she became old and ugly, was cast on one side, and he returned again to his European people to choose a mate from them. The reason why the Maoris were allowed to have seats in the Assembly was on account of the laws which were passed before the Maoris came there at all. The Maoris objected to the doings of Parliament because Acts were passed affecting them in which they had no voice whatever. He would not be vexed if the House said that the Maori members were not to appear there any more. With regard to the Maori members of the Executive, they were appointed at a request made by himself and Karaitiana. He had seen that it was a good thing that they should take part in the Government, but he thought it was better that they should not. He thought the Maoris should not be left in'this position, but that they should be in a position to vote whichever way they thought fit. There were so few of them—only four —and if two went into the Government there would be two voting for the

G-oyerninent and two against, and nothing would result. He hoped the House would agree to the second reading of the Bill, and carry it through all its stages. With reference to the question of increasing the number, he could meet the House in that respect. He did not ask for any blind votes to be given in this matter —let the votes be given in accordance with justice. The new Bill that had been introduced this year with reference to Native lands would have been passed through the House if the Maori members had not been there; and they were supported by the Natives outside in objecting to that Bill. Bill read a second time.