EVENING SITTING.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 9007, 14 August 1907, Page 4

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. On the prisons estimates, £44, 110, Mr Hogg referring to tne treatment meted out to prisoners, said that it they were subjected to treatment -similar to that which settlers m the back blocks had to put up with, few prisoners would return to gaol. He advocated that prisoners should work not only to maintain themselves but for the benefit of othere. Particularly should this course be adopted in regard to wife deserters. , Mr Laurenson urged the reform ot the present prison system,- which was obsolete and had proved so in older countries. It would be better to spend a few pounds annually to eff ect,. the cure of criminals.' . . Mr Barclay urged that scientific investigation should be made with a view to reforming prisoners rather than spending huge sums on punishing them. The Hon T. Y. Duncan said that the prison system of New Zealand was the best in the world so far as it went, but it did not go far enough. He advocated more prisoners being sent to the country to engage in tree planting, and those who could not be co treated should be put to a trade and made to work at it, not play. Mr Ell referred to the deaths that had recently taken place in gaols and urged that sick prisoners suffering from excessive drinking should bo sent to an hospital. , Mr Massey eaid that pnsonere sent tree planting should bo short sentence men, with good records.' It would be altogether wrong to 6end dangerous prisoners to country districts tree planting. He urged that prisoners suffering from delirium tremens should not be sent to goal, neither should they be sent to mental hospitals, but some special provision should be made. He contrasted the cost of prisoners main-

) tenanoe at Auckland with the cost at other gaols. He asserted that at Auckland the prisoners were made to do useful work, whioh decreased the co6t of maintenance. Mr M'Lachlan said they could not teach prisoners trades, as the various trades unions would be up in arms. He added that workers in New Zealand should not compete with prison labour either of New Zealand, or England, Germany or America. Mr Laurenson said the reason for the smaller co6t of maintenance of prisoners at Auckland was due to the fact that Auckland gabl contained moro prisoners than any other gaol, the reason for this being that there were' no suburban gaols in Auckland. He . urged that prisoners should make shoes and clothing for use in gaol. He added that a .gaol should not be allowed to exist within cities. Mr Ell moved an amendment to reduce the vote by £1 as an indication that the time had arrived when gaols should be placed outside the cities. Mr Okey, replying to Mr Laurenson, opposed the suggestion ■ that New Plymouth Gaol should be closed. There were few prisoners there, but they were doing good work. Mr Poole advocated fair punishment being meted out to offenders against the law. He said that if seamen on British ships were treated in the same manner as prisoners in gaols in New Zealand, they would be a much happier class of men. Referring to inebriates, he said he would give the same sert of luxury and consign to prison the persons who made, the inebriates. Mr Rutherford said if would not do to place the worst class of criminals at tree-planting. Only the best class of prisoners should be utilised for this purpose. He urged that prisoners should be employed making roads. Mr Hanan asked what would be done with existing gaols if it were decided to remove all prisoners to the country. Gaols were of no use for any other purpose, and it would be a serious matter to build new gaols. ' Mr W. Fraser said the whole system of reform must he in classification of prisoners. Mr Wilford eaid they could no more classify criminals than they could classify labour. He had had dealings with criminals for sixteen years, and he wae convinced that sentiment was lost on hardened criminals. Further, the bestbehaved prisoners were hardened criminals. Proceeding, he stated that he had known of hardened criminals who had given a lifting hand to ney prisoners. These hardened criminals realised that they were in the ruck, and, whilst ready to "go back to gaol themselves, were willing to help new offenders. He intended to support Mr Ell's amendment, as he considered that gaols should not be allowed to exist in cities. Mr Laurenson said the worst prisoners to deal with were those who were continually in gaol. . Mr Tanner said that while they had such exhibitions as the " Kelly Gang " going about the country they were tending to make criminals, and he thought the time had arrived when some censorship should be exercised over theatrical representations of criminal doings. Mr Ell's amendment was negatived by 33 to 23. The Hon J. M'Gowan said that he wae not going to teach prisoners trades to compete with free labourers. Whenever possible, the Department was giving better light in gaols. The prisoners sent to the country for tree-plant-ing were first offenders otr prisoners undergoing sentences fo*r minor offences. Mr Wilford said he had heard members raise their voices in protest against what they described as anomalies, but he had never heard the Minister admit that members were right. It was heartrending to get up to urge reform and be met with the Minister's reply to the effect that thero was nothing in the arguments. Prisons Department, £44,118, passed without alteration. ' , At Police Department, £158,689, Mr Tanner, referring to the deaths of infants, eaid that nt Ghristchurch the matron, whose duty as Inspector under the Infants Life Protection Act was to inspect registered homes, had 126 such homes to inspect, and, in addition, her duties at the police station were sufficient to occupy the whole of her time. He further asserted that to efficiently inspect the homes would occupy the whole time of two inspectors, consequently it was no wonder that the duty of inspecting these infant homes was carried out in. a far from satisfactory way. Mr Wilford, referring to the pay of detectives, said that it was twentythree years before the maximum salary of 14s 6d per day was reached. A detective started after eight years in tho . police force at 9s 6d per day, or sixpence per day less than a dustman employed by the Wellington Corporation. He added that when a police constable became a detective, he oould never bocome an inspector or 6ub-inspector. Only one member of tlie detective foroo during the .last twenty years had been appointed a sub-inspoctor. - Mr Hanan said t.'iat in establishing a system of different salaries for polieo officers in different towns, they had, whilst doing away with ranks, brought into force a system of grades which caused jealousy. Mr. Wilford said that eight sergeant^

had been appointed sub-inspectors over the heads of chief detectives. He urged that chief detectives should be paid the same salary as sub-inspectors and granted the right to beoome inspectors. Mr Hojgg contended that, compared with the officials of other departments, the Railway Department, for instance, the pay of detectives was very satisfactory. He added that they were getting a good, intelligent claesof men to enter the police force, which was unequalled by the forces of the neighbouring Stiates. Mr Poole urged that the Auckland police should be provided with a launch, in order that they could patrol the water frontages. - . . Mr Gray complimented the Minister on ha,ving increased the pay of conr stables, but considered that the in- j crease was not enough. Mr Barbour advocated^ an increase of police in suburban districts. Mr Herries said that he had heard that a great deal of favouritism was shown in the promotion of police officers. He urged that a roll should be presented showing the salary and pay of every officer in the force. Mr Arnold urged that inducements should be held out to all officers to stimulate them to rise. The Hon J. M'Gowan said that the question of licensed homes for infants was under consideration. Referring to the appointments of inspectors and 6ub-inspectors, he said if detectives continued in that branch, enjoying higher pay, they oould not expect to receive a higher position in the uniform branch, but if they cared to resume duty in the uniform branch they would beoome eligible for the higher positions. Police Department, £159,679, passed unaltered. • _„__,_- J* . • . Mines Department, £6405. Colonial Analyst Department, £2240, passed. Mr Herries aeked why the director of the Geological Survey Department, after two years' service, had been granted such a long holiday. He also desired to know if he was engaged t,o lecture on behalf of New Zealand. The Hon J. M'Gowan said that the director was not being paid to lecture. He had been granted four months holiday on full pay, and given a net increase to his salary of £70 per annum. Geologioal Survey Department, £11,360, passed unaltered. Total vote Mines Department, £35,190, passed unaltered. j (Left sitting.) j