EVENING SITTING.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 6290, 22 September 1898, Page 4

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. OLD AGE PENSIONS. The Old Age Pensions Bill was committed. Clause I—Short1 — Short title. Mr R. Thompson moved that progress should be reported. He said that it was exact of the greatest cowardice on the part « :any Assembly to pass a measure committing the country to suoh enormous taxation, and not provide the money to pay the pensions. His object in moving that progress should be reported was to enable the Government to refer the question of the providing of funds to a Select Com-

inlttee. He considered thatt fands should: be raised by special legislation, Mr Hogg contended tha* the la3<J speaker took up the attitude of looking, for a pension scheme which- he coul<Ai support, and praying that he inightJ' not find such a scheme. Whilst Mr Hogg was speaking, a= stranger behind the bar of the House made offensive interjections, attantion towhich'was drawn by Mr Crowther,. and the-Sergeant-at-Arms removed ih > offender. The Premier said that members who desired to consult the wishes of the Government would "sit tight" and vote. He accused Mi Thompson of being timid with respect to the pensions scheme and the expenditure under it ; but if the expenditure had been proposed on roads and bridges in the Auckland district he would not show signs of timidity. The? iinewas passed for inquiring where the money for the scheme was coming from. The money for this year was in. the Treasury, and he had no hesitation iv saying that the money would be there next year , and so long as Parliament was desirous of doing justice to the aged persons of the colony.. There was no necessity for increased taxation to provide funds for pensions, and the cry that there was such whs intended 1 to enlis-t land-owners against the scheme. Mr Fraser said that the crux of the Bill was Clause 57, providing that pensionsshall be permanent appropriations from the Consolidated F*nd. He objected to this clause, as it took the control of pensions out of the hands of the House. Mr Taylor said that the clause was a fatal blunder,, especially in view of „ the fact that the Assembly was, year after year, being shorn of its control over expenditure.. Details of the measure would have to-be altered from time to time, and when, amendments were proposed the House should be in a position to discuss the whole subject. The Premier said that the doctrine propounded by Mr Taylor was monstrous.. If Parliament, supported by the will of the 1 people, passed a law, it should not be- left in the power of one branch of the I*egis- | lature to say that the money to give* effect |to its provisions should not be foith-^ coming. Mi Scobie Mackenzie said that tfea same argument would apply with respeci is©, the education expenditure, though no- attempt was made to interfere with that expenditure. Pensions should be an> annual appropriation in. order that the House might be in a position to criticise the administration of the scheme. In 2ms opinion all the clauses in the Bill shouisl be struck out with a view of inserting a. scheme providing for universal contributions and universal pensions. The Premier pointed out that the honorariums of members were a permanent charge, and this was conducive to the independence of members. The State once having recognised the olaims of old age pensioners, their pensions should be placed ' beyond the control of a private member. Mr Montgomery said that he was in. j favour of the Bill, and would like to see the appropriations under it made annually, but if the Bill could not be amended, in this respect he would, neverh^less, vote for its third reading. Mr Sligo said that with the present income of the colony ifc was absurd to think that the provisions could bo carried out without placing further burdens on the country. After further discussion, Mr E. Thompson said that the Government evidently wanted to put an Old Ago Pensions Act on the Statute. Shot, and then let; the colony look after itself as best it could with respect to its finariprs. The. Premier suggested, after further discussion, "that in 'order ' to • make . some progress, the machinery clauses of the Bill should be passed, when he would be willing to report progress. ■- ,:■■''■■ Mr Wason said that the Premier should confer with the leader of the Opposition and Mr Taylor in order thai; some understanding might be arrived at on the measure. After iu.lijlt discussion, the motion to report projrr* ss was negatived by 33 to 23. Captain Russell moved that "Old Age Pensions" should be struck out of the first clause with a view to inserting "Ch writable lustiUitions Extension Bill." He said that them was no necessity to explain the auier.c'meat, as it explained itself. Mr G. Huichiscn said that the Premier knew that the Bill was to extend the system of charitable aid, but -wanted to have the credit of having passed the first Old Age Pensions Bill in the British Dominions. Negatived by 34 to 24. Mr Carson moved to strike out the word "pension " and insert the word " relief." Negati veil by 30 to 23. The clause was agreed to. Mr Wason moved that progress be reported. The Premier proposed that all the clauses down to and inclusive of Clause 6 should be passed at that sitting. Several members Considered that this was unreasonable. The Premier said that not only that night, but time after time, the business cf the country had been blocked, and, whether intentionally or accidentally, the fact remained that half the session was gone and no business had been done. His demands, he said, were 1 not unreasonable. If majorities were not to rule, it meant the introduction of the closure. Mr Taylor: You cannot carry the closure in this House. The Premier, continuing, said that as matters were at present, though ho was not going to propose or advocate it — indeed, he objected to it— yet if the business of the colony was to be don« the closure would have to be introduced. Captain Eussell said that the Premier had entirely mistaken the position, as his nerves were so thoroughly upset that he

▼as urablfl- to take a> judicial vi»w offhe [matter. Me (Captaia> Russell) was? always anxious to facilitate business: JMotif n> negatived by 27 to 26. . Clause 2:— lnterpretation. j On, the motion of Captain Eus&ell,.fcbe I definition ©f "income" was amended to ko'iide valuable considerations. Mr Scobie- Mackenzie aaoved to ssport BOgress. Agreed to- by 27 to 25. lh& House- xose at 1.50 a.m.