LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 6049, 10 December 1897, Page 4

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

77 :'■■'''. •'. /.ThuesCai;,. Dec-s^' ;•.;v ' . AFTERNOON SITTING. • tfhe Council mftt at 2.30 p.m. FIRST readings. .. A, *v\tch of Bill? .was received from the LiQ"iver House, and they wero read a firsttime. old ac.z: pensions. In moving tho second reading of the Old -Age Pensions Bill, the Minister of Education said that he felt that he was addressing a number of members who had made up their minds on the question. The qic tion was one which had troubled the world for -Yd time, and would probab'.y continue to trouble the world for many years to come. The attention of statesmen all over the world, within the last ten years, had been directed to the solution of this question. All previous schemes, from that of Sir Harry Atkinson, had gone on. the cardinal lines of contributions from those who wore to be recipients' f>f pensions in their old age. That was the great stumbling-block in all these schemes on the Continent, where no one cortld go from ouq part of the country to another without elaborate passports, &c. It was easy for employers to satisfy the State tliat a certain amount trus deducted from the weekly wage ol! the employes, but such a scheme would not work iv New Zealand, nnd we must be a little more bold, even a little rash, though the scheme when passed would be found to'be a perfectly sound and a perfectly workable one. The State, in consideration for work done by its workers in the days of their working life, would present its aged members with a certificate of merit with a pension attached. He repudiated the statement that charitable aid entered into the question at all. _ Judges W9re not ashamed to tike pensions, so why should a worker be? The oflice of the Bill was to raise tke people 'who were now obliged to receive charitable aid, and give them a pension for the work they had done in the past. The Bill last year had prepared the feeling of the country for the present measure, and at last election the electors of the country had the question before them on every platform. How, then, could any person affirm that the question had .not been before the country? The principle, too, had been affirmed by Parliament last year. He thought that the amount of pension was a very fair average balance between two extremes, and wa3 offered only to those'who had lived blameless In es. He contended that the financial side of the question was put on the most solid basis, the consolidated revenue. He could most conscientiously state that he did not believe -in attaching a charge of this kind to any particular source of revenue, such as a public-house or totalisator tax. Publichouse licenses and the totalisator tax might be swept away altogether by future Parliaments. If the House of Representatives and the Premier had seen their way to propose to pay these pensions, the Council could not say that the money could not be raised. At present' 2500 recipients of charitable aid were over the age of sixtyfive years, so that there would be that saving under the Bill out of the present expenditure upon charitable aid. He felt assured that if tho Coimcil could see its way to pass this Bill as a solution of a great question it would do so.' It went further than had been attempted in other countries; but as we had ventured further than other places in other matters, and with success, why shoidd we be afraid to deal with an old-age pension scheme ? ' The Hon J. A. Bonar said that no one wished more than himself to see this question solved, but the Minister had given no reasons ior the Council to adopt this Bill. The Government of the colony should have given the people ah opportunity of considering the matter. Ho did not ask to read the Bill six months hence, but would merely move to lay the measure aside for a time. Every step of placing the matter before the cotintry in the shape of last year's Registration of Claims Bill had been absolutely concelled and repealed by the present Bill. That could not be called putting the question before the country. For a small premium the people could obtain a larger pension from the Government Life Insurance Society. Quoting from the census, he showed that in 1891 there were 14,000 persons over the age of sixty-five, while five years later this number had increased to 20,000, and a proportionately large increase must be looked for in the future. As to the payment of pensions out of the surplus, he said that no Government had a right to tax the people more than was actually required to carry on the government. They would not be safe in calculating anything less than .£500,000 a year for expenditure on this scheme. He spoke from official sources. He was not prepared to sacrifice the interests of the colony to the Government of the day. This system of old .age pensions was not going to relieve the charitable aid system, and would only add to the colony's expenses in every shape and form. He moved the following: —"That the Bill be laid aside, for the following reasons:—-That the country has had no opportunity of considering the scope and operation of the Bill; including its bearing on existing benefit societies; that the financial provision for giving effect to the Bill is unsatisfactory, and that the measure has not been based on carefully prepared estimates or actuarial calculations; that the Bill is practically a form of conditional relief open to the risk of great injustice in administration, and should be considered with the whole question of charitable aid." The Hon W. M'Cullough said that the amendment proposed would have the effect of killing the Bill. The operation of the Eegistration of People's Claims Act had kept this question very forcibly before the people of the colony. The newspapers throughout the country had also devoted considerable space to the scheme, and since last election the country had done very little else but consider the scope and operation of this Bill. ' The measure would do work which the Friendly Societies were trying to do, as recommended in the report of the Royal Commission on Friendly Societies in England. Thero was a necessity recognised by all authorities in Friendly Societies for some scheme such as was laid down by this Bill. The Friendly Societies would hail with delight the passing of such a Bill. The Council should accept the Treasurer's assurance that the colony would provide the money, as if the Treasurer did not know the state of the colony's finances who did? He regretted that the Council could not amend the Bill, but he thought that it should be passed. The Hon J. D. Ormond regretted that the Coimcil was quite precluded, from the manner in which the Bill was brought down, from, taking its proper share ip legislating on matters of social importance to the colony. He protested against the shape in which the Bill was placed, and the Coimcil on this consideration alone would be justified in laying aside the Bill, and the other Chamber, he hoped, would understand that it was no use for it to send back this Bill in a shape which prevented the Council from amending and making it acceptable to the colony. The Council would stand for its rights in this matter. The finance of the question should b_ contained in a separate measure. A large question like this could not be properly dealt with in the way in which it was considered before it reached the Upper Chamber. The policy Bill of the Government had absolutely disappeared, so altered was it in the Lower House, and altered on no principle whatever. The Bill now before the Chamber was not a policy Bill at all, but was produced by irresponsible members in another place, and it lacked all coherence. He Was not opposed to the principle, but the provision for the Bill was not permanent, and it would be almost a scandal if the Bill appeared on the Statute Book. There must not bo left to any Government of the day power to frame resolutions for carrying out the Bill, aud one of the blots on the 'Bill was the clauses allowing the

Governor to frame Orders-in-Coiincil. The . Bill Avas so diffuse that not one pensioner out of a hundred could make his claim under it without making a mistake. There would then spring up a large class of agents for the procm-inif of pensions. Thore was a remarkable provision in tho Bill, stamping it as an unthought-out measure, providing that pensions were to be uncertain, and not to be depended on. If the Government had meant the Bill to be a policy measure it should have insisted on tho whole of its Bill. The Government was roady enough to make a parry question of the Premier's connection with a foreign syndicate, but though the Honse was then improperly coerced, the Government had made no attempt to coerce the House on behalf of this policy Bill. The measure, if passed, woidd annihiliate Benefit Societies, and the people of the colony should be allowed to consider the question whether Friendly Societies could not be made to take part in an old age pension scheme. Charitable aid and the old age pension questions would have to be. considered side by side. It was not a question what the country would like to do, but what it was able to do. He did not think that the people would tolerate the abolition of benevolent institutions. This Bill involved a great many issues of which the people of the colony had not yet even heard. Any Bill for old age pensions should have given to it some fixed exclusive portion of the country's revenue. The Hon J. Rigg said that the opponents of the scheme did not in the least comprehend the great issues of the question. He hoped to enlighten them. The mere fact of the Lower House amending the Bill was no argument against the carrying of the Bill by the Council. It was impossible for the minor matters of the Bill to be fixed in the measure itself, and the Orders-in-Council made by the Government under it must not conflict with the provisions of the Bill. The principle of the Bill had been brought before the country, and that was all that could be discussed in any new legislation. He was sorry that the pension given was so small, but that could be increased in future. He then proceeded to deal with the present conditions of the industrial world as showing the reason why old age pensions were necessary. As to the finance question, the newspapers of the colony were quite in favour of the scheme as long as nobody paid for it. If the people oi' the colony had been overtaxed to make surpluses, this scheme of pensions would reduce this overtaxation by returning the extra taxation when a worker was no longer able to pay it. He was proud that his name should be associated with the support of the Bill. The. Hon W. T. Jennings at- 5 p.m. moved the adjournment of the 'debate. The motion was carried, and the Council immediately afterwards adjournedi