House of Representatives.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 5056, 15 September 1894, Page 7

House of Representatives.

AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met Kit 2.30 p.m. BANKING. Tho Hon J. G.'Ward said he had on a recent occudon informed the House that he would lay the agreement between the Bank of Now Zoalaud and the Colonial Bank upon the table on Tuesday next. Since then he had found that information had been wired and published in different parts of the colooy th«it was calculated to eerioesly mislead. Ib was not reliable information. Such being the caae, although the Government had not yet conBidored the 1 proposals and would not arrive at a decision upon thorn for a few days, it was desirable that tho whole of tha proposals should bo laid upon tho table. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Wilson, whether the Premier will cause a provision tj bo inserted in the Licensing Bill, so that no liconsed persons sball bo permitted to remove to new, premi&c s, The Hon R. J. Seddon said that was provided for iu the Biil uow before the House. Replying to Major Steward, The Hon R. J. Seddon said the provision made in the Railways Bill for the preservation to the Commissioners of all lights and privileges as Civil servants (if originally in the Civil Service), extended to all subordinate railway ofiicsrs. Replying to Mr O'Rogan, The Hon R. J. Sbddon aaid thab free passes alteady granted to railway servants when on holidays would be continued, but not when their lo«v» was extended. Replying to Mr Thompson, whether ifc ia true thab unemployed workman sent from Christchurah t> Hikurangi have been granted work for a fixed period, and, if so, whether the same privilege will be este&dad.to local workmen, The Hon W. P. Reeves said it was truo they were guaranteed wort for a certain time, but not for loag. As they had to pay the cost of going up there and back, they were told that tbey would have three months' work, tfhiuh he thought was reasonable. After tbe three months were up tho meu from tbe south would have to take their chance with the Icc&l men. A LEGAL CASE. Mr J. W. Kelly moved tho adjourn^ ment of the House, &.nd spoke at some length on what he etat9d was a misappropriation of funds by a certain solicitor. He hoped that the Government would inquire into the charge?, and if they were substantiated he urged the necessity o2 removing that eolicitor frcm tho roll of barristers and solicitors practising in the colony. A lengthy debate ensued, after which the motion for adjournment wan lout. LAND DRAINAGE. The Hon J* M'Kenzib moved the eecond

SPEING-BLOSSOM TEA.

. leading of the Land Drahmgo Amend- | mer>t Bill, to amend the Act o! 1893. Eh aalc6d tho Houbo to agree to the second reading pro forma, iu order to send tho Bill to the Agricultural Committee. Agreed to. HABEOTJR AND EDUCATION BES7SRVX6. Tbe Hon J. M'Bjenzii; moved the sesond 1 reading of tho Harbour and Education i Reserves Bill pro forma in order to send the Bill to the Waote Lands Committee. Sir E. Stout, and Messrs Allori, Pinkerton and Fiaeer asked the Minister to postpone the seoond rending till a future day, in order that membero might, be able to study the measure, which wag a very important one. The Speaker said he could not allow any debate on a motion to read a Bill pro forma. Motion carried by 83 to 19. HASTINGS I.OAN. ' The Hastings Borough Loan Validation Bill was passed through committee, read a third time and passed. INSPECTION OF MACHINERY. J The Hon R. J. Set>doit moved the eeeoncTreading of th? Inspection of Machinery Act Amendment Bill, to remedy certain defects in the present Jaw. Tho Bill provided that all drivers o£ engines and travelling engines are to have certificates of competency, and that examinations for engine-drivers shall he conducted by a Board consisting of the Inspecting Engineer of the Mines Department and the Chiof Inspector of Machinery. He commended the Bill to the attention of the House. S After a lengthy discussion, the second : reading was carried on the voices. j ariNZNG. j The Hon J. M'Eenzidi moved the second ' reading of tho Mining Districts Land ; Occupation Bill, to provide for the issue of j occupation leases within mining dis- \ triers. He Raid ha intendad refsrring the ! Bill to the Waste Lands Committee. Mr Guinness supported the Bill. Tho dc-bate was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The Honse resumed at 7 30 p.m. Sir B. Stout resumed the debate on tho Mining Bill, pointing; out that small runholdera holding pastoral land in Otago would be utborly ruined by thi3 Bill. filters Fmeer, O'Regan, Bruce, M' Ken zie (BuUcr) and Alton also spoke en the ..Bill. The Hon J. M'Kenzie eaid his experionce as a Minister convinced him of tho necessity for this Bill. The motion for the second reading was agreed to. ADVANCES TO BSTTLE3B. The Hon J. G. Ward moved the eecond reading of tbe Government Advances to Settlers Bill, to enable the Government to assist settlers by advancing money to them en mortgage at reasonablo rates of intereot. He felt sure that the House would approve of this Bill, for they were about to roDeat history in considering a measure of tois kind. The principle of the Bill was first established in 1770 in Germany, and in other plac9s since then with great anccesß. The objeob of this Bill wati to allow the people of the colony to get money at lower rates of interest than at present prevailed, and the necessity for Buoh a Bill was admitted by all. His opinion wan that the true solution of settling people, on the land was in a Bill of this kind. He pointed out that the amonnt of private mortgages in this colony was £29,606,579, and the Government was aware of many caseß in which good security was offered for renewals of mortgages, but they were refused unless much higher rates of interest were charged than before existed. The Bill provided 1 that an office should be established for the administration of the Bill, but there would be no separate department. One of the existing offices vrould be utilised for the purpose, and no additional expense would ba incurred in the establishment of the head office under this Bill. He said of the amonnt of money loaned on mortgage by the Public Trust Office, ,£453,475 had been advanced, of which tbe total loss had only been but out of thab, owing to the sales that had been effected, the loss would only be .£I9OO. The Government Insurance Office under the new Board had lent .£51,800 and lost only £1000. After referring to tho constitution of boards under the Bill, he said the Government recognised from the first that the strictest economy would have to be oxerciaed in administering this department. He said that ten valuers and ten solicitors would probably be required, but not more. Those valuers, he thought, should receive £600 a year, asd tho Rolicitoro should receive from £1000 a year in tho larger centre?, and £400 in the smaller centres. That, he thought, was not an excessive amount for administering the department. If the legal expenses amounted to £11,000, the f ees to be paid by borrowers would recoup that to the extent of £8000. He thought the House would recognise the importance in the administration of a department of this kind that no undue influence should be exercised to prees on the department undesirable securities. The House would nee that two systems ware proposed for raising money, namely, obtaining loans by debentures up to £1,500,000, and by the Land Board, both systems in the aggregate nob to exceed £1,500,000. He believed that it would be better to adopt the Land Boards. The bonds could be advanced against special mortgages, and transmitted to England. The sscurity would be excellent, and this system would be preferable in many ways. The lowest sum ta be advanced under the Bill would be £50 and the highest £5000, which, he thought, wbb a good maximum under a Bill of thia kind. While tho lending Board would bo in a poaition .to advance up to two-thirds of the value of the security offered, it would not b8 compulsory on ib to do so. The Biil provided that in cases of lending money to settlers, the ordinary conditions of leasehold mußt bo complied with. The limit for which money was to be borrowed under the Bill was thirty-six years and a half. That was a necessity, bub if in fifteen years a man were in a poaition to release his mortgage he could do bo. He referred at some length to the proposals respecting the assurance fund, and said tho element of oafflfcy was more provided against in this Bill than under any lending institution in the colony, including the Public Trust Office and the Government Life Insurance Department. Ib was not intended to interfere with private interests, but the Government was determined that the high fees hitherto paid in connection with mortgogas ehould be reduced. Borrowers would sign, instead of the ususl mortgages, mortgage dockets. Another important provision was that everything done under the Biil would be under the supervision of the Controller and Auditor- General, which he held was a most important proviso. If the House considered that valuers and solicitors to be appointed under the Bill should cob engage in other business, the matter could be fairly discussed, and the Government was prepared to allow it fair consideration. He said a greab many sutlers had requested the Government to move in the direction of advancing m-aney as proposed by the Bill. The fact of the Government lowering the rate of interest would also compel every other lending institution to do the same. The Government was anxious- to see a general reduction in the rate of interest for the good of the colony as a whole. He reminded the Honse that every civilised country would be moving in tho direction that this Bill indicated, and that was a proof of the soundness of the proposal. Since the proposals had been made, £140,000 had been offered to be sent to the colony ab 5 and 6 per cent. That proved the good effect thab had already been realised by the proposals, which he felt were for the good of the colony. Mr G. Hutchison said no one but the most selfish and narrow-minded person would desire the continuance of high rates of interest. They had, however, a duty to perform, and he felt l Bute that Mr Waid would be aSßißted by j the House in making the Bill as v/orkable j 33 possible. Mr Ward bad made a j most important admission in saying that j interest waa high and capital reluctant, j That state of things was directly due to the j

policy of change inafciluted by the present Government, and ha tbauked the Treasurer for admitting that. Ho cbaracterioed the system of land bonds aa crude and incomplete. Ib was a serious thing to make advances out of the conBolidated fund against these land bonds. Ho held that ii was a dangerous thing to allow the Treasurer to accumulate for unknown purposes 1 per cent per annum ou money to be lent for Buch a number of years, and he hoped that the Treasurer would tell the House a little more. : Dr Newman asked where Mr Ward intended to get his cheap money from. He thought ib should be called a Bill to smash the lawyers of the colony. The Bill was a momentous one for good or evil, nnd if wisely used ib would be very beneficial, bub if not it would land ub in disaster. 1 Captain Russell did not know whether Mr Ward was to bo complimented or to be pitied, that none of his large army of . supporters either dared not or cared not to ■ ! say a word in defence of hia Bill. There J ' was a curious contradiction in some paragraphs in the Financial Statement and the speech juat delivered by the Treasurer. la tne Statement he told them that capital was being hoarded in the colony, but he (Captain Russell) held that if that were so capital mu9b have been so shaken in conddeaee by the administration of th9 Government for the last three years that it was hoarded up without; remuneration rather than invest in good, honest mortgages. It was a • very difficult task to argue against . such a scheme as thie. They were all i naturally anxious to get cheap money if they possibly could, and he sincerely ! sympathised in the proposal. The ques- , tion was whether they were going the • right way about- it, and whether farmers i would benefit by tho Bill. He feared that j formers would not benefifc by the scheme proposed in this Bill to anything like tha extent claimed by tho Treasurer. They were not going to lend money from bedrock prices, even though they had reached bad-rock values. It was quite possible that instead of cheapening money, this Bill would have the effect of making ib dearer by raising the rate of interest. The proper way of helping farmers waa ■ not to pledge them to English moneyj lenders, but to lend money from the Public Truat Office and other State departments at the lowest possible rate of interest, by which they would be able to get first-class I securities from those who required advances. Mr Mills strongly supported the Bill, and held that ifc waa urgently required. It would do far more to encourage settlement and provide work for the unemployed than any other measure introduced for years pnst. Sir K. Stout Bftid it wns surprising that in thti most novel and important Bill brought down by the Government there should be so little interest taken. The Bill had entirely departed from the Budget in several respects. It provided that London bonds were to be at 4 per cent and Now Zealand bonds at 3£ per cent. They had, therefore, a direct departure from the Financial Statement eo far as the rate of interest- was concerned, and aloo as to raising money in the colony instead of in London. There had not only been a change betweeu the Budget and the Bill, but between the Bill and the speech of the ' Colonial Treasurer. Mr Ward also allowed nothing in his speech for the expense of raising the loan. They were now, as a colony, entering on a money-lending business, and there should be no sentiment. Ha quoted from figures to show that the taxpayers or' the colony would Buffer a loss for the first year of £15,175, which was no small consider ation. In addition j to this loss there wonld also be a loas of interest before investment of, at the very least, h P pr cent a year, amounting to another ,£9500, which would make the total loss over £22,000 for the year. He did not think, looking at the matter from the monetary point of view, that borrowing money at 6£ per cent for thirty-six years and a half was a good transaction for tho borrower; and many of those who borrowed money under this Bclieoiß would go down to their graves mortgaged roea. The last claaue provided that the Bankruptcy Act, 1592, should not apply to this Act. This meant that when an unfortunate man became mortgaged to the Crown he would go down to his grave on undischarged bankrupt. Mr Millar said he was not prepared to Bupport the Bill as ib stood. He approved of the Treasurer's anxiety to reduce interest, but not to put the colony under the heel of the foreign money-lender. If Part 2, relating to borrowing in the London market, were struck out, and the Land Beards alone allowed to remain, he did not think that the colony would be in such danger, but money and interest should be set aside as a sinking fund, otherwise the liability would still remain. Mr Stevens supported the Bill, and strongly approved of the proposal to reduce the rate of interest. Mossra Buddo, M'Gowan and Mackintosh »Ibo supported the Bill. \ Mr O'Ekgan moved the adjournment of the debate.. Agreed to. The House rose at 1 a.m. ; ■— ■ I