EVENING SITTING.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 4158, 18 August 1881, Page 4

EVENING SITTING.

Tho House resumed at 7.30 p.m, bbpbbsbntation bill,

The Hon J. Hall trusted they would not adopt the amendment. The first clauso was very vague. When the timo camo that there could be ono law for both races he would gladly second tho motion for giving the Maorieß increased representation. If they had been left to tho operations of tho Constition Act thoy would have had no voico in tho Legislature at all. In giving them Bpecial representation, the Colony went out of its way. There were many laws in operation which proved that they were not on a footing similar to that of the Europeans. In the matter of fencing, cattle trespass, and in the exercise of the rights of ownership of land, they were differentially dealt by. Tho argument that it was proposed to tax these properties, was only an argument in favour of allowing them representation on the local bodies. It was not the caso fchafc there was, or could be, one law for bofch races, and, consequently, ifc waa not righfc fco tho European fchafc they should havo equal representation. What, in fact, was asked, was that they should bejallowed to impose laws on us which they refused to obey themselves. He saw tho dawn of a better state of things, but its consummation was still at a distance. Then, again, the Maories were not willing to givo up the speoial representation. The reason, members told us themselves, was tbat they did nofc quite understand fche force of fche proposed change. If fche special representation was done away with, and tbey were left to the ordinary operations of one electoral law, he believed their political power would disappear altogether, or else be handed over to the worst class of European*}. Those who held their property under Crown grant had the right to vote for tho European representatives. That right ought not to be loat. He believed that the North Island had a great futuro before it, and when it did become entitled to inoroased rspreßentation by increaaed population he declared that no ono would bo more willing to voto for ifc than he would be, but he utterly demurred to give it a representation ostenaibly for the Maori population, which that population neither wanted nor could make good use of, Mr Tomoana urged the importance of delaying the quostion till next session, bo aa to enable tho Native population fco acquaint themselves with the nature of the proposals made. At present, he could not support the amendment.

Tho Hon W. Gisbobnk could only account for the comparative silonco observed by Ministers on the subject on the assumption that they wero ill at ease in respect to the step

thoy propoßod. He could not see how it could be otherwise, seeing that their proposals would virtually disfranchise 40,000 of the populati-n. Beferring to Westland and Nelson, t e said (hoy nad, by tho unfair administration of the Public Works policy, reduced tho population of these places, and, having dono bo, they now proposod to take advantage of thoir own acts to reduce tho representation. Tho Bill before them did not fulfil the conditions of tho Bill promised when Government fcook office in 1879. Ho could nofc agree wifch fche amendment, and when tho proper time camo he would move as a further amendment to the firsfc clauso tho fallowing: — "Provided the total numbor of meir.bers afc present returned by any Provincial district shall not bo reduced." Tho orly way to decreaao tho number of members was to provide a propor syatem of local selfgovernment, but until fchafc waa dono any attempt at reduction waa manifestly unfair. He could not agr>*e with fche proposal to abolish the special Maori representation, and substitute the ordinary representation. A proposal of tbat kind demanded moro mature consideration than could be given to it. He gathered from the Maori members that thoy themselves wero nofc well disposed towards the change and thafc would weigh with him. Tho Bill generally was likely to produce dongerouß revolutionary changes. Mr Moss said that oufc of 42,000 Natives there were not moro than 10,000 amongst whom the Queen's writ did not run. Government had boen conveniently silent on fche subject thafc these 10,000 disaffected Natives would not be upon the electoral roll ; consequently it would be only the law-abiding members of the race who would exercise the franchise, bo had the moafc implicit confidence in the sense of justice which actuated the South Island, but seasons might come wheu they might be carried away by blinded prejudice, and in that case there wa? no saying what injustice they might not bo ready to perpetrate. For that reason he objected to the North Island boing left to any abstract sense of justice. It ought to bo placed bo as to enable it to assert its own position. Tho Maories would be enabled to feel themselves more fairly treated under tho ordinary representation than they can possibly Bucceed ih doing under the special representative system.

Mr Lundon spoke in support of the amendment, contending that in refusing to grant the representation sought for tho Maories, because thero waß a factious remnant amongst them, Government was doing a grosa injuatico to a large section by whom the law was observed.

Mr Htjbst said that the increase of population as between the North and South Islands as shown by the cenßua returns, did not exceed 4000, and thafc fact, he contended did nofc warrant the wide difference in tho representation proposed by this Bill. Constituted as they were— a largo board of works — property should, he contended, bo properly represented in Parliament. A population of thousands mighfc suddenly turn up on a goldfield, and as suddenly disappear, and yet, according to the principle of thiß Bill, that; force of circumatances was to be accepted as a ground for representation.

Mr Speight said the Bill was incomplete, as ifc did nofc make provision for introducing one law for bath races. Ifc was a mere sham for tho Premier to talk about being proparod, when the time arrived, to give additional representation to tho Natives, when no provision whatever was made ao aa to bring aboufc tho arrival of thafc time. His purpose, apparently, was to allow the special representation to gradually drop down to zero, and then to amalgamate the two races under one law. Thia was most unfair. Tho rig^. of representation was a right inherent in fcht» man himself, independent altogether of circumstances. A greafc deal of importance had been attached by Government to the Maori members' expressed opinion that the special representation should not bo abolished. He remindod fchem, however, thafc the same members actually stonewalled the Maori Provinces Bill, and yet that Bill was now the boast of the Government. The interpretation he pufc upon the Maories' opinion on the subject, was that they felt that if representation on a population basis wao given to the Europeans thiß year, they would next session be entitled to demand special Maori representation in proportion to population alao. This would give them four more members, but they would never get the olaim allowed. In dealing with great principles he quite believed that every parfc of fche Colony would be prepared to do justice to tho other, but when questions of public works were concerned, a very different state of thinga waa bound to exist. On that ground he objected to the large preponderance of political power being placed in tho hands of Otago and Canterbury. He would vote for fche amendment.

Mr Andbews said the Maories in this debate had simply been made a Bfcalking-horse. What waa wanted was additional representation for the North Island. He thought it was time the special representation was done away with. He would voto for the amendment.

Sir G. Gbby contended, in opposition to the Premier, that representation should precede the observance of the law and the payment of tuxes. He had no intention of impugning the sense of justice which actuated the South Island • Btill he protested against the inequality of representation to the North.

Dr Wallis objected to make the Maorieß a stalking-horse for the increase of the North Island representation. The Maori members were the besfc judges of whafc would bo besfc for them. As they had said thoy did not wish tho change, he would vote againat the amendment.

Mr Mubbat contended that the larger they made the House the more costly and fche less efficient it would be. The exclusion of the Chinese in the south and the greater parfc of the Maories in the north was unfair. The Maories were the large landowners of the Colony. Thoy were ton times richer in land than Europeans. Thoir special repreaontation had not been a success ; tho presence of thoir mombors in tho House was an injury to representative Government. With such large property rights ifc was just that they should have a voice in tbo other Chamber. Again, ho contended that they ought to have a representative right in respect of their property qualification. He did not beliovo that Canterbury and Otago would be found doing any groat wrong to tbo other parts of the Colony. They wero constantly told thafc these Provincial districts hud got all their railways made, and having succeeded in that, thoy wero tho more likely fco assL't other pluces in securing similar rights. Mr Sheehan said he was one of those who declined to give his assent to the proposition that population should bo the sole basis. He doniod thut the country should bo placed on the same basiß as the towns. The former, from tho scattered nature of its population, required more representation to make its wants known. Ho the adverse criticism passed upon the Maori members, alleging that in tho four membera in tho House they had men who could oqual any man or set of men in Parliament. Tho charge made againat them of turning suddenly from one side to another, was only what had been practised on many occasions by European mombers. An attempt had boen made to treat the goldfiolds in a way which he denounced aa being unfair, simply because the goldfields happened to bo depressed at tho present timo in population. Tbey had boon told tbat Otago and Canterbury, having got what they wanted would bo tho more ready to do justice to othera. Ho deolined to come in in that way at second hand. The Norfch Island had a right to rank along with the South Island. He was woll pleased to see the South prosper ; at tho samo timo he was quite alive to the fact that before long tho North would outstrip the other in tho march of progress. He controverted tho imputation made, that tho Native members wore liablo to be unduly influenced. In the caution they had obsorved in this matter, they had aimply observed a wise precaution. What thoy asked for was to boo one right proporly established bofore they consented to abolish another. Ho would strongly adviao the Nativo membera to vote for tho amendment. Ho was aware a groat number of mombora wero opposed to tho apodal representation. There was no doubt but tho South desired to retain tbe balance of power, just as thero could be no doubt the South was jealous of tho North to thafc extent. The fact was that tho Maories contributed more to tho revenuo than any other class. Government could buy their land at four and fivo shillings per aoro, and soil it at onco for twice that sum. The profit on tho sale of Maori lands simply tided the Colony over its difficulties. The South never mado a contribution liko fchafc to tho Colony. Ho scouted tho aßßertion made that the Maories wore in opon revolt. Whon repreaontation was at first given to the

Maorioa tho greatest possiblo impetus waß given towards tho settlement of the Maori difHoulty. It was not perceptible at first but time had shown it. The 'increase of the representation ho contended For would havo a Btill furthor beneficial influenco in tbat direction; in fact it would bo the means of stamping out all that remninod of the Maori diaaatiafaction. For thafc reason he asked Government to give the increased representation asked for. Although he confessed ho had little hope of seeing tho amendment curried, he would nevertheless vote for it.

Mr Tubnbull denied thafc so much profit had been made by the State out of the purchase of Maori lands. It had been a positivo loss instead of having been a gain. He argued thafc the Natives were perfectly right not to givo up tho special representation for what was a mere shadow. He would voto againsfc the amendment.

Mr Levestam argued that the principlo of tho Bill was that population should be represented, and yet they refused to apply that principlo to fche Maori population. Ifc was not a question of principlo ; ifc was simply a question of expediency. He would support tho amendment.

Mr Geobqe contended that in proposing to tax Native lands. Government could nofc in fairness oppose tho amendment. Were the Natives taxed on the same principlo as Europeans, a greafc step would be taken towards obviating the Maori difficulty. Ho was nofc sure the amendment would not be carried. At all events he would vote for it.

Mr Tolb did nofc fchink the country wanted an increase in the number of members. Victoria, with a population of 800,000, was governed with 86 members, and he believed thafc if fchey reduced Iheir number* instead of increasing them, legislation would improve. With a complete system of local government they could very well dispense with some of the members they had at present. Mr Seddon contended that to be consistont Government ought to be prepared to abolish the special representation and allow the Maorios to go in undor the ordinary franchise.

Mr Colbeck advocated fche claim of the Maories to equal representation rights.

At 1.10 a.m. Mr Weston moved the adjournment, which waa opposed by Major Atkinson and losfc on fche voiceß.

Tho original motion for going into Committee was then put and carried by 40 to 19. Tho following is the diviaion list : —

Ayes 40. — Messrs Allwright, Atkinson, Bain, Barron, Bcetham, Bowen, Bryce, Bunny, Collins, Fisher, J. 8., gisher, J. T., Hirst, Johnston, Levin, Mason, M'Caughan, M'Donald, M'Lean, Montgomery, Murray, Oliver, Beid, Bolleston, Saunders, Seymour, Shanks, Shrimaki, Stevens, Studholme, Sutton, Taiaroa, Te Wbeoro, Thomson, Tomoana, Trimble, Turnbull, Wakefield, Wallis, Whitaker.

Noes, 19— Messrs Ballance, George, Gisborne, Sir G. Groy, Messrs Harris, Hutohiaon, Kelly, Levestam, Lundon, Pitt, Russell, Seddon, Shephard, Swanson, Tole, Weston, Wood.

Paibs. For : Messrs Moorhouse, Wright, Jones, Hall, Sir W. Fox, Messrs Stewart, Richardson, Fulton, Macandrew, De Lautour, Finn. Againsfc : Messrs Tawhai, Hurst, Hamlin, Beeves, Sheehan, Colbeck, Bastings, Andrews, Speight, Ormond, Gibbs. Tbo Houae went into Committee. Clauso 1, short title, was agreed to, and progress was reported.

The House roso afc 1.30 a.m,