TEACHERS' MEETING.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 3801, 21 June 1880, Page 4

TEACHERS' MEETING.

The teachers of the Educational District of North Canterbury met on Saturday, at 1 p.m., in the Normal School, with the objerl of considering the proposed Teachers' Pensions Act. Rather more than thirty gentlemen attended, and there were three ladies present. Mr W. Malcolm was called to the chair, and Mr Thornton was appointed Secretary. The Chairmun said he had thought it necessary that a meeting of tho teachers Bhoukl be called when a subject of such great importance to them as the Pensions Bill was beiug mooted. As no oue else would take the responsibility he had cone so, and had first of all invited those teachers who lived in or near Christchurch to meet together on the previous Saturday, in order that something might be done at once. A mooting had been held on that day, when a Sub-committee had been appointed to consider the whole of the Bill. The Sub-committee had metoji Miree several occasions. At first it had been ...tended that the Sub-committee should repc i ! to the present meeting, but after seeing M i Knight, the actuary, who had drawn !;e Bill, it had been deemed the r> 'ter course not to mako any formal report. He now leftit to tho meeting to discuss the Bill, and trusted that no one wouli talk for too long a time, but that those who addressed the meeting would make their speeches pithy and practical. He then read a letter from Mr W. H. Wake, objecting to the Bill proposing not to allaw v teacher to resign till he was 60 years of age, and suggesting that the meeting should recommend the insertion of a clause allowing teachers to retire after 20 years' service in New Zealand. The Rev Mr Cumming, after a few brief remarks, moved — "That a TeacheiB 1 Fund iB desirable." He thought no one would dispute this, it might almoßt be considered an axiom. The pay of the teacher was not very good, and the labour of a teaoher was not very easy. Teachera, as a rule, broke up sooner than other men. It was very desirable that their position should bo such as to leave their minds at ease to attend to their duties, and that they should tot . when old or incapacitated, have to appeiil ad misericordiam, but that it should b.* v recognised thing that after doing a certain amount of service a pension should be theirs by right. ' Mr Campfield seconded the motion. ■Mr Baldwin said that 25 years ago he had entered the profession in England under the impression that he would be entitled to a pension after a certain number of yeara. Robert Lowe had knocked all that on the head. The same thing might happen here. The Government might some day want money, and they would take — not the land fund — but the teachers' pension fund. He objected to the proposed scheme on another ground — it would pauperise the tea3hera. For hiß own part ho had looked after himself by paying so much a year, and could not stand another £18. He did not believe in the Government having the handling of his money. He would propose, "That the Pensions Act is not required." In accordance with a suggestion made to him, Mr Baldwin altered his motion to the following: — "That the word 'not' be inserted after the word 'is' in.Mr Cuinmir g's motion " The amendment was seconded by a gentleman who remarked that 'he Government might invest the teachers' money at 5 per cent., while they themselves could inveit it at a much greater rate. Another gentleman pointed out that Mr Oumming's motion did not mean that anything Bhould be taken off the teachers' salaries. It might mean that the Pension Fund should come out of the general revenue. He did not think teachers were so thinskinned as not to accept money when it was offered to them. Mr Curnow thought they should not object to receive a pension if the Government gave it them. He was not prepared to agree altogether with the proposed Bill, but he could easily imagine that he would accept a pension on certain conditions. Mr Cumming thought Mr Bald win's amendment a perfectly sound one. That gentleman had objected to pensions, as he said they pauperised people. It was far better that this objection should be discussed and settled definitely at once. He (Mr Cumming) held that a pension need not pauperise. It might come from their own self-helpfulness. The pensions were to come out of their own pockets, and there wbb surely no pauperism in their ÜBing their own mone.i . The pensions would be giving them back their own money, whioh would have been utilised in a form which their own investments could not reach. He hoped the question would go to the meeting on its merits. Mr Baldwin explained that he looked upon the scheme as saying to them, " You cannot take care of your money yourselves, we will take care of it for you j you are incompetent to manage for yourselves." He repeated that if the Government found themselves in financial difficulties they would break faith with the teacherß and appropriate their pension fund. The amendment was put to the vote. Sixteen voted for it. The original motion was then put, and again 16 hands were held up. The Chairman gave his casting vote in favour of the original resolution. The Chairman then suggested that the Bill should be discussed, but remarked that any alterations as to amount of percentage, or age for retiring, would necessitate the whole scheme being remodelled, as the actuary had made his calculations on the data in the Bill. Mr Cumming said that Mr Knight had been asked whether he could not make the age for retiring fifty years, and had replied that it could be, but the deductions from salaries necessitated by the alteration would be so great that the teachers would be unable to bear the strain. The Chairman confirmed what the last speaker had said. Mr Knight, he said, had been very kind and had given every infermation to the Committee, and that information he (the Chairman) would be very happy now to (tire to the meeting. Mr Baldwin proposed — " That the Government postpone their Pension Fund till a more convenient time." The Government had no money bo it was useless to ask them to make more liberal terms. The motion was seconded. A gentleman in supporting the motion remarked that anything now done could not come into effect for he did not know how many years. He had been in favour of the Bill, but had made up his mind to oppose it ever since the actuary had given an opinion aa to the meaning of clause 7. The Chairman thought it would be a mistake to adopt Mr Baldwin's resolution until the whole matter had been discussed. Mr Baldwin would withdraw bis motion. Mr Curnow pointed out that Mr Baldwin had without intending it proposed to burke all discussion. Mr Baldwin did not wish that, but held that it was wasting time to discuss the Bill. (Laughter). The Chairman then submitted the Bill to the meeting. The preamble was passed over, as also the third clause, which had been agreed to virtually by the carrying of Mr Gumming's motion. After reading clause 4, the Chairman said he had asked Mr Knight what was meant by the insertion of the words " together with all fines and penalties." Mr Knight had replied that he had inserted the words, because he thought that the teachera were under similar regulations to other departments of the Civil Service, where fines and penalties were levied. As no such thing obtained under the Education Board, the words really did not affect the teachers. A gentleman would like to hear what tho young teachers present thought on the subject. They could get better terms for themselves from insurance offices, and he thought it a cruelty to take the money of the young to provide for the old. Mr Cumming referred the meeting to Clause 5. The Chairman ox plained that 2\ per cent would be taken out of the funds paid by the Government to the Board. The teachers' ■hare of the amount funded would be only one-third of the whole. Mr Knight had been told in Otago that tho Board there would be able to give the 2\ per cent without interfering with tho teachers' salaries. Mr Curnow Baid tho 2\ per cent was made & first charge on tho education reserves for primary education. In hia own mind he was convinced that tho profits accruing front those education reserves would pay the whole — certainly in a very four years they would. Mr Baldwin had stated that the teachers could do better. Ho (Mr Curuow) bolieved that a smart man of business could do better, but without intending any offenc?, ho might venture to say that perhaps not all of the teachers were smart men of business. (Hear.) It did not require much knowledge of busi-

neßS to go into a Building Scciety, where possibly a man might do much better, but there were such things as secretaries who made away with the money. Then again, Building Societies were not always very profitable. During the past year he was aware tbat one with which he was conneoted had not made large profits. He would give them a few figures. If a teacher aged 25 paid to an insurance company 6 per cent., he could insure for £300, payable at the age of 65. That was equivalent to an annuity of £35 3s 3d. The insurer could take £300 ready cash, ov buy a Government annuity for the rest of hia life. Under the proposed scheme tho teacher would bo entitled to £66 3s 4d out of every £100 of hi? saWy. The teacher therefore gained considerably by the scheme as proposed in the Bill. Life insurance was, as they knew, the common way of saving up, and the teachers would have considerable advantages) over this common way. There was one point in which this scheme was inferior. No mention was made of widows and orphans. To married men this was a most important omission. He saw that some of the young teachers were suiiling, but they would agree with him perhaps at some future day. The Committee had inquired with respect to this matter, and Mr Knight ha r l told them that perhaps 1 per cent, additional to the 6 per cent, would enable a fairly handsome provision to be made for widows and orphans. If a teacher died in harness his widow would, for the 1 per cent., be entitled to draw a month's salary for every year of service. There was one more pomb — an important one, though a general ode The Bill would, he thought, improve the status of the teachers as a whole. There was an idea that when men got to a certain age they were a little behind the time. For all they knew, some other subject might be Btarfeed which they would have to teach, and it was a hard thing for a man to get up a new subject in his old age. Before any Board could touch a teacher's status they would have to look at this Bill and Bee how much they would have to pay him. This would materially modify the views of Committees, as they might have perhaps to pay a teacher two years' salary. " The Chairman said that Mr Knight had pointed out that this was a strong point in favour of the teachers. He (Mr Knight) believed that the District Boards would soon be done away with, and the management be placed under the control of one Board at Wellington. . Mr Cumming moved — " That the Teachers' Pension Act offers several advantages over Government or ordinary company life assurance." The motion was duly seconded. A gentleman objected that whereas the money paid into an Insurance Company was always convertible under the surrender arrangements, the money paid under the Government scheme would be absolutely lost if the teacher wished to retire or died while still young. Another gentleman asked what teacher had ever seen another who had arrived at the age of 65 ? He had never seen one. [A voice : " Here's one."] He would be happy to make his acquaintance. Probably that gentleman had not worked very long in the profession. [A voice: "He has."] Another gentleman suggested that the Bill should make the pension receivable after 30 years' service. The Chairman said that Mr Knight had told the Committee that such an alteration would destroy the whole scheme. A gentleman asked if it would be compulsory for each teacher to pay the 6 per cent even if he had made other arrangements for provision for himself in his old age. The Chairman replied that it would certainly be compulsory, as the money would never come into the teacher's hand. It would be kept back from his salary. In answer to another question, the Chairman said that those who thus paid to the fund would not participate in any profits that might be made. Mr Cumming said all profits that might accrue would be paid over to the General Pension Fund. Mr Watkina asked if he had correctly understood Mr Curnow to say that the addition of 1 per cent, would provide for widows and orphans ? Mr Curnow said that Mr Knight had told him provision might be made in that way. Mr Watkins thought the pension could be done for leas than 6 per cent., if 1 per cent additional would provide for the widow. Mr Cumming said the widow of course would only receive a lump sum, not a pension. Mr Watkins reminded the meeting that a widow received a lump Bum from an Insurance Company. He could not see how Mr Knight could give £250 for £2 a year. The Chairman said a teacher might have to retire •at 40 years of age through ill-health, and live till he was 70. He would draw his pension for 30 years. Mr Bishop had thought the percentage very high. He had worked out what £12 a year came to at compound interest. He found that if a man began to pay at 25, the first £12 at 6 per cent would realise £123 odd in addition to the principal. The other payments . would be of course less, as the interest would be for 30 years, 38 years, and so or. It seemed to him that an enormous sum would accumulate. After what Mr Knight had said he supposed that the provisions of the Bill were correct. Mr Cumming said there was a saving clause, to the effect that after five years the whole scheme was to be re-considered. Mr Bishop had put in nearly 20 years' service, and therefore would have the advantage over his young friends. Mr Newlyn said £9 a year, which was the amount that a pint of beer a day came to, at compound interest in thirty years would give £1500. He thought Mr Knight had made some mistake in his calculations. [A voice : "At what per cent."] At 10 per oent. The Bill was exceedingly unfair to the lady teachers, not one in ten of whom would remain in the profession long enough to claim the pension. Mr Cumming said a proposal had been made to Mr Knight that the lady teachers should, on their marrying, receive a certain sum, say two-thirds of what they had paid. Mr Scott asked what would be the position or those already married. If Mr Knight made many more alterations there would be none of the original Bill left. The percentage would be raised to £10 instead of £6 Mr Cumming might say on the authority of Mr Knight that the ladies had not been taken into consideration. The Chairman said Mr Knight had told him that information had been obtained from Belgium, England, Scotland, and other countries, on whioh informations the calculations had been based. It might be that there were mistakes, but the calculations were based upon those of societies already in existence. Mr Watkins asked if Mr Knight had not intended to pension the female teachers. Mr Cumming said yes. The Chairman said Mr Knight had taken into his calculations all the teachers, without distinguishing between sexes. He had called Mr Knight's attention to the large proportion of females, and had mentioned the fact that at the Normal School there was not at present one male pupil teacher. A gentleman asked if after a teacher had paid, say, from the age of 25 to 45 and then died suddenly, all the money he had paid would be lost to his surviving relatives. The Chairman answered in the affirmative. The gentleman thought this very unfair,' and would vote against the Bill on that account if on no other ground. Mr Baldwin had heard Mr Gumming say that in fivfe years the Government would look through the whole fioheme. He (Mr Baldwin) quite believed this, and that the Government would simply draw the pen through it all. (Laughter). Mr Cumming had more faith in the Government than that. Mr Baldwin said no doubt they were all honourable men, just as they were in England. A gentleman proposed " that 50 years be the term for retiring." The Chairman ruled that the motion could not then be discussed. Mr Watkins asked if the resolution before tho meeting would commit them to the Government scheme. Mr Cumming thought it certainly would not. It was only a question of figures. Mr Scott moved — " That in the opinion of this meeting tho Teachers' Pension is not so advantageous to tho service as the ordinary insurance companies." The motion was seconded. Mr Curnow spoke at some length in further explanation of tho Government scheme. The Chairman put Mr Scott's amendment, and declared it to be carried. (Applause.) Considerable discussion of a somewhat desultory character then took place, in the course of which the following resolutions were moved and seconded— " That the follow-

ing worth be added to clause 4 : ' provided always that those t eaohers who have already made provision through life assurance do not come under this Act,' " " That, after the oxprccsion of the opinioa of this meeting, it is incompetent for us to proceed further with tho Bill ;" " That the Government postpone tho Pensions Bill till a more convenient time ;" and "Tbat the meeting be adjourned for a fortnight, in order to obtain further information." The last was carried. Votes of thanks to the Committee and to the Chairman concluded the business of the meeting.

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