HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 3595, 18 October 1879, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Friday, Oct. 17.

AFTERNOON SITTING. The House met at 2.30 p.m. TUIBD READING.

The Liverpool london and Globo Insurance Company's Bill was read a third timo and passed.

QITBSTIONS. Replying to Mr Bovven, The Hon R. Oliver said he would causa a report to be furnished as to the provision required for weighing grain and other farm produce at tho railway stations whore such goods are received for transit. Replying to Mr Mauandrew, The Hon. W. Bollbstok said that ho believed the present Bystem of payment by ■tamps at the several police couTts had caused some inconvenience, and that steps would bo taken to remedy the same. Mr JOHN3TON asked the Native Minister

whether the Colony has been charged with '• the cost incurred in conveying the late Native Minister (Mr Sheehan) from Auckland to Napier to enable him to contest the Clive .election after he was returned for the Thames. The Hon J. Hall, in the absence of tlio Native Minister, stated that although Mr Sheohan had power to charge these expenses he had not done so, but had paid them out of hia own pocket. N BW BILLS. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time : — A Bill ta Amend the land Transfer Act, 1870, and the land : Transfer Act Amendment Act, 1876 (Mr . Brandon); a Bill to Repeal, tko Turnpike Act, 1866, of the Auckland Provincial Legislature (Mr Hamlin) ; the Heathcote Bridges Bill (Mr Fisher.) ELEOTIOH PETITION. Mr Hislop, on the Order of tho Day being called oil for the appointment of an Election Committee to try allegations contained in the petition of Joseph Newman against the re- . turn of Dr Wallis and Mr Hurst, moved — "That it be referred to a Committee to enquire whether the forms of this House, and the requirements of the Election Petitions Act • have been complied with by the petitioners, and to report to the House within seven days, and that the consideration of the appointment of an Election Committee be postponed until after such report ; the Committee to consist of Messrs Bo wen, J. T. Fisher, Fulton, Fitt, . Stewart, Tole, and the mover, throe to form a quorum." A lengthened debate took place of a purely technical character. The objection raised was that the petition could not, in accordance with the Act, embody the names of the two members against whom it was directed. The Hon J. Hale thought that if the provisions of the Act could not be literally complied with, its spirit could, by calling on Dr Wallis and Mr Hurst to say whether they would act jointly or severally. If the former, there was no difficulty ; it the latter, two Committees could be appointed. Subsequently the Hon W. Rollbston moved an amendment embodying thia suggestion. Several members pointed out that the strict letter must be followed in construing a penal Act ; others pointed out that security for costs as against one member only had boon given by the petitioners. After considerable ducuasion Major Atkinson moved the adjournment of the debate, to enable the Speaker to look into authorities on the point. The Hpeakbb said he had made tho petition in question the subject of careful consideration, and he looked upon the objection as insuperable. Eventually it was agreed that the names ■ on the Committee should be left to be decided by the Election Petition Committee. The petition against Sir Georgo Grey's return for Christchurch was next brought up. Mr Hislop stated a technical objection . grounded on the fact that the declaration accompanying the petition hod not been Btamped in the terms of tho Aot. The objection was overruled. The Speaker announced that the lion E. Richardson, the petitioner, had namoi Mr Moorhouse to represent him. Sir Geobgb Grey named Mr Downie Stewart, and the Speaker appointed Mr Fulton to be Chairman of tho Committee of Enquiry. The remainder of the Committeo to bo struck to-morrow. The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m.

EVENING SITTING,

NATIVE MINISTER'S STATEMENT. On the House resuming at 7.30 p.m. : — Mr Bbtob said he thought the Opposition would give him credit for being a filent member, one who did not ocoupy the House with many remarks. He asked to be allowed to say a few words regarding the position of Government. He claimed that Government hadbeenput there fairly. They got thore under no false pretences. Mr Sheeban had announced during the late no-confidence debate that a coalition was impossible. It was in

view of thia fact that a Government had liad to be formed from their own party, so it ■was unfair to say anything to tho contrary. The Opposition might, aa they Btate, have a majority ; still be would ask them to concede what was evident, that as a Government they represented a very considerable section of the House. He made these remarks, as he did not intend to take any part in tho proposed want-of-conSdence motion. It had amused him to see the alarm with which, what was called by the Opposition, the Detective Ministry was regarded. It reminded him of high scriptural authority — " The wicked fleoth when no man pursueth." He would now proceed to deal with the mode in which his Department had been conducted — the syßtem of personal Government that had been purauod— and he would afterwards deal with tables connected with the Department itself. Most of the members of the House desired to see a great change in this Department ; to see personal government by the Native Minister done away with. That was the feeling of tho country, and he quite agreed with it. He could remember the good old days when personal government in this Department was in full Bloom ; but he was mistaken if latterly the late Sir Donald M'Lean waß not of the same opinion. At one time a little outlay went a great length with the Maoris ; a few blankets and sugar and tea were all that was asked. Now, however, their demands have risen with the change in the administration of affairs, and now they talked about as much as a million of money. Under Sir D. M'Lean ho believed the Department was being reduced, but under the late Government it had returned to all its pristine glory. The late Native Minister, had been waited on and communicated with, far too much by the Maoris. It was no uncommon thing for them to receive 100 or 150 telegrams in a day, all of the same tenor— -demands for money or monies' worth He read a specimen telegram, in which a sum of £2000 was demanded. That was only one of very many similar communications on the game subject. He had been absolutely astonished at the amount of money which had been taken out of the control of the Hoii'e

and appropriated by tho Native Minister in this way. The Opposition had said that they mew of all this before. Well, he could only »%y that not very long ago they were of a very different opinion as to its policy. He gave Another example of the mode of personal Government. In 1878 79, £20,000 were placed oa the estimates for Native district roads and

bridges, and it was handed, practically speaking, over to his sole disposal. Why Bhould the Native Minister make theio disbursements rather than any private member in the jHouse? Another direction in which theso pernicious effects were felt was this. Pome - Maoris had given thoir sons a tolerable education} and then insisted upon getting thorn into the Civil Service. There was no proper employment for them, and they were kept going about Wellington at a cost of £700 per annum. At present the matter was trifling, . but it was a thing that was rapidly growing, • and unless properly ohecked, all the young Natives would be sent to Wellington, a burden on Government. Last year the appropria-tions-i* thiß department wore £4730, and expenditure £54,498. In one of these items — contingencies— the vote was £2.500, and the expenditure £18,598. The Land Purchase Department assumed a great magnitude. A return showing the jstate of this department was produced and laid on the table. It has been argued that this branoh of the department might be successful for settlement, and j«t not be a commercial successi He denied the correctness ,'ot. the theory> and

, argued that if the land yen .good, « a commercial speculation, thea it must, of neowsitT, promote . jettlem'ent. He • quoted figtires (v lupport of that theory, aad'ihowed

fc' at where tho land handed over from the Maorn was really good it was readily taken up, whereas the bad land wa3 left on tho hands of Government. The total appropriation between the years 1878 and 1879 for the purchase of Native land was £732,000, the amount expended £705,000. That left a small balance which, however, had disappeared. Each quarter the purchases amounted to £124,000, and for thecurrentyeartheestimated oxpendituro was £201,000. To complete the transactions entered into, tho sum of £1,181,000 will bo required. The salaries of officers of this department amounted to £10,225. That was voted in a lump sum, and the Hnise had no control over tho allocation of tho money. Then, again, he thought tho time had arrived to consider the policy of the land purchaso system. In a late report from a land agent on tho West Coa3t, he stated that two or three years ago lie could have got 1 md for 2s Gel per acre, for which as much as 7s 6d and 10s was now demanded. If it was worth that, then there could be no objection to tlio prico asked being paid, but ho knew of his own knowledge that a very great deal of it was, pracl ically speaking, useless for settlement. He instanced casesjn which, speaking from his own knowledge, land being so dealt with was not worth more

than Is 6d per acre. When the late Government took office, Native affairs wero in a hopeful state. He would ask' were Native affairs in a hopeful state now ? It only required a little patience and a little firmness to make tilings benefioial to both raoss, but the system of fondling them and making them believe we wanted something from them had been disastrous to tho interest of all concerned. He could see no reason for keeping a large defence force in the Waikato. There was no probability of the late Native Minister coming back to office within tho next few dayß, and ho (Mr Brycc) would take good care that if ho could do no good in tho interim ho would do no harm. He thought it was but right that the Waimate Plain grievances should be inquired into, still lie did not think that the Into troubles would be healed by anything that could be done in that direotion. Their trouble lay much dcoper than this Waimate Plain difficulty. Ho passed a warm eulogium on the forbearance shown by the Natives affected by those outbreaks. It was painful to note the low estimation jn which British law was npparently hflld by the Natives, and he would ask the House to consider wkether or not this personal Government had nob something to do with this Btato of affairs. He would

be for doing away with tho Native Departmont as a department. He would relfgite the Native schools to the Education Department. Native roads, &c, should be placed, not nominally, but actually, under the Public Works Department, and tho vote appropriated by Parliamentary authority. Native pensions he would place under the.Colonial Secretary's Department. Then again, the Maoris should have some means of placing their lands before tho public for sale, either by a Waste Lands Board or otherwieo. The Board could provide for the survey and subdivision of land, together with a small percentage for opening up land by roads. Tho net balance cou'd then be handed over to the Maori owner. He would also provide means for investment, so that tho Maori might have an opportunity of making permanent provision for himself. Tlieso, howover, were his own sentiments, and had not been fully considered as yet in tlio Cabinet. These wero his views on the point ; if members approved of them, good and well ; if not they knew the coiusq to pursue. Under the circumstances in^ which they were about to be placed he moved "the- adjournment of the House.

Mr Siieekan eaid it was quite truo that as a Govornment they refused coalition. What

they wanted win a reconstruction. He admitted tho present Government had support. It was just fuflicienfc to give them a decent minority. Mr Crjco hud made a fair Statement. Th.-y had been told a deal about personal Government, but tlio fact was merely a name. Every Minis' er in the exercise of tho duties of his Drpirttucut exorcised to a certaia extent personal Govornment. It was true that the ideas of Maoris wero more extravagant than they had been j ears ago. Ho thought that was simply a natural result of the present condition of affnirs. Ho defended tho

policy of members of the Government going amongst tho Native tribes. Thoro was a If Uivo gon Hainan in tho House who took part with the lite Government in their meetings, and if ho got the opportunity of going amongst them again within the next few months, he would have completed a solution of the present difficulty. Tho facts of the £2000 transaction to which the Native Minister alludod, were these. A Maori, an officer of tho Government, built a house at the Thames to the honour of the Queen and law, and he had pot £2000 to defray as tho cost. In this omergoncy ho (Mr Sheolian) found a promise of tho "late Sir D. M'Lean to give this Maori £1000 for serviofs rexdeivsd. He (Mr Sheehan) paid that £1000. The other £1000 was advanced on land belonging to the Maori, and could bo realised upon it to-morrow if wanted. A great deal was made of the £1500 exponded in roads, &o. Three years ago tho sum disbursed in (his way was £15,000. The money in question had been given to be disbursed by local public bodies, the Road Boards, and County Councils. Maori pensioners, assessors, and police were creatures of tho past long before he (Mr Sheehan) took office. Peculiar practices had been initiated by previous Governments, and having been so initiated and practised, the late Government felt itself compelled to do so likewise. They were literally compelled to do no. Tho policy all through, of tho late Government, had been to Becure Maori lands instead of allowing them to fall into the hands of privats speculators. They completed more negotiations in tvrelvo months than their predecessors had done during a period of five years. The proposal for the disposal of Maori lands was a most pernicious one, and one which would play into the hands of tho land rings. Tho grievance was that ho had takon precautioDS aguinst that being dono. There were at present men in Now Zealand who would buy up tho whole country, could thoy do so. For his own part he would be in favour of abolishing all the Land Boards, so far at least as the North Inland was concerned, and allow the lands to bo administered by Government. His experience of these Boards was that they invariably favoured some particular side" or party unduly. That was what ho would do, and not as suggested by the Native .Minister, increaso their powers by allowing thorn to administor tlw Native lands. Alluding to tho West Coast difficulty, ho paid that promises had been made which had not been fuUHlod. -That was a

fruitful cause of that dilllculty. The Bay of L lands difficulty had been alluded to. The fact was that that was a survey difficulty with which the Native Department had nothing to do at all. In Great Britain and Ireland outrages similar to these which had lakon place in New Zoaland were of frequent occurrence, and yot no o-ie ever thought of making the administration of Great Britain responsible. Mr Brjce talked of abolishing the Native Depmtment. His own proposals, however, showed that he did not believe in it hat he s:iid. He proposed to place the Native schools under the Education Department, and to bind some other Native matters over to the

Colonial Secretary. What was that but breaking up a department for the express purposo of creating two or throe others. The fact was that so long as the Maoris ■were a different speaking cla«s, in would bo quite impossible to have their affairs administered by a department separate and distinct from that of tho Europeans. If the House would pass a law enabling the Maoris to offer their lands either to Government or by public competition to the public, then it would have his support. If they saddled the lands with all the charges of opening up roads, making surveys, &0., very little would remain for the owner. His idea would bo for the cost of survoy to be defrayod by the Government. That would insure accuracy of survey, and otherwise tend to promote settlement. The excess of expenditure over appropriation was authorised by the country in order to settle the diflloulty connected with the King question. Then again a considerable amount of that vote wa* fairly chargeable against the land purohase funds. At Cambridge, for example, some hundreds of cases had to be put through the Land Court, and great delay took place in consequence. The Government had oither to keep the applicants there, or else send them away at tho Government expense, and bring them back again when their cases could bo taken up. He warned Mr Bryce of this : If he attempted to carry out all that he proposed, the result would be incalculable. If the impending struggle resulted in the Governmenferetnining their Beats,- he would give Mr Bryce every

a=sistanco in carrying what might be fairly esteened a sucrod cause when referred to this m*t ter.

Major Atkinson urged that the moral standard set up by tho lato Government, was simply one pu*. in comparison with that of a previous Government. They never met one of tho charges brought against them, but always roferred back to what had been dove by their predecessor*. He denied that the Government of 1875 had spent more m mey on this Depn\ ment tlnn tho lato Government had done*. The whole aim of the Native Minister was to show that Parliament should be left wholly to the Ministry. Mr Thomson spota in defence of the remarks made by Mr Sheehan.

Major Tb Wheobo made a few remarks, after which the House rose at 1 a.m.