AMONG THE MAORIS IN THE NORTH ISLAND.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 3556, 3 September 1879, Page 3

AMONG THE MAORIS IN THE NORTH ISLAND.

(From tlie Speoial Travelling Reporter of tho Lyttelton Times.) No. IV. INTERVIEW WIJDH TE WHIII. Wellington, Sept. 1. Beforo ontoring into a descriptive account of my interviews with Te Whiti and Titokowaru, I think ifc is duo to jour readers and myself thafc something in tho naturo of a personal explanation should bo made. Ifc was my intention when commencing this series of papers to lead up, as ifc wero, to tho subject of my interview with Te Whiti. This, be it understood, beforo there was any assurance thafc I would succeed in reaching Parihaka. I had intended to enter into a minute analysis of a social and political phase of life peculiar to tho North Island, pre\iously described in theso papers as " Pakoha-Maori-ism," with a viow to throwing light upon what might subsequently follow ; but what did immediately follow came on so rapidly, and, withal, was so engrossing, thafc lam fain to deal with ifc at once, and to postpono to a moro convenient season that portion of tho subject whicli ia moro or less speculative. Afc present I propose to deal with facts. Should the papers which appear under the abovo title be republished in another form, thoy will be arranged in chronological order ; but in tlie meantime tho exigencies of the occasion require that that which is of tho most immediate interest should take precedence irrespective of other considerations. Turning from tho explanatory to the practical, let me trace the courso of events from the time when, acting in the belief that the Government "meant businoss," I proceeded post-haste to Hawera. There I waited patiently for a day or two, bufc finding that nothing waß being done, and that apparently no one knew whether anything was or was not going to be done, I determined that if the Government would not march on Parihaka, I would, and made my preparations accordingly. Tho obstacles in tho way wero not a few. There woro thoso aboufc Hawera and Normanby in fche Pakeha-Maori land-sharking interest who dreaded an interview between Te Whiti and a man who went to him with clear hands. Thero were Government secret servico agonts — and oh, what dirty, what utterly contemptible tools have to bo used in Native affairs! — who had their own cogent reasons for endeavouring to thwart my purpose ; thoro wore military mon and sottlers, actuated by tho kindliest spirit towards me, who talked dolefully of the danger of tho enterprise; and in my own mind there was the dread lest aftor all labour and expense would be thrown away, and that Te Whiti would say to mo, as he has said to men high in office, " You are a Pakcha ; go your way, I have nothing to say to you." And again — and I am not ashamed to own it — there was fche uneasiness aboufc the murderer Hiroki at the pah, in just such a sullen and dangerous frame of mind that a murder or two more or less would bo neither here or there to him. But all thoße difficulties were as nothing compared to that of obtaining fche right sort of interpreter. Thero were men who volunteered to go con amore (suspicious — very !) ; thore were men who demanded exhorbitant pay ; there were men qualifiod, bufc who "funked on ifc," to use an oxpreßsion of somewhat vulgar colloquialism ; and ifc was only through the kind offices of friends who took a deep interest in tho mattor that at last I procured the services of Charles Wallace, a half-caste, who nofc only has the reputation of being an excellent interpreter, but bears a character abovo suspicion so far as double dealing between tho two races is concerned. I will only say of him here that he served me diligently and faithfully, and at critical points of my arguments with Te Whiti displayod raro tact and quickness of judgment. Very interesting as was the sixty miles rido across fcho glorious Waimate Plains, and replete with incident as was the two days' journey, through country classic in Maori tradition, and furnishing abundant food to tho. historian of the earJjr struggles between the pakeba and the aboriginal, wo must for the presont skip all that, and at onco arrive at Parihaka. Immediately after crossing tho

littlo estuary of Jho^Waitotaro river, some twenty mites v toltbe^fcorth^of '.Opunake, we turned sharply inland, riding straight' through tho te.ll flax toward Mount Egmont, whose snow-clad front towered eight thousand feet above our heads. Threo miles or so inland wo came upon signs of Maori cultivation, and occasionally saw men and women working in the enclosures. These stared at us in evident surprise, but all greeted us courteously (tenakoo), and many ran forward to shake hands. I had almost forgotten to mention as a somewhat curious feature of the journey that, starting from Hawera, the nearer we approached Parihaka, the more cordial became tho demeanour of the people. For example, acting on advice, I rode armed from Hawera to Opunake, by way of protection against the renegade white and half-caste scoundrels who infest the district, atd become maddened by the vilo liquor they drink ; bufc afc fche lasfc outpost I left my revolver behind, and rode with perfect confidence through thafc portion of the country over which Te Whiti has supreme control, and throughout which nofc a single drop of intoxicating drink is fco bo found. Note this, ye Good Templars. In a subsequent paper, I shall have something to say respecting the infamous traffic in illicitly-distilled whiskey carried on between white scoundrels and Maoris. And here, as I am alluding to questions outside my interview with Te Whiti, let me avail myself o f the opportunity to say that, confining myself in this paper to that subject alone, I shall reserve for my nexfc and following papers, an account of the perfect communistic systems in vogue at Parihaka, of the appearance, and natural defences of the place, and of other interesting matters coming under my observation. I will merely state here thafc afc Parihaka thf re are nearly two hundred whares, and at tho lowest computation twelvo hundred people, of whom a large proportion are picked warriors. Tho place is practically impregnable, except against artillery or rockets, and there is enough food stored to last a very long Biege, whilo tho supply of water and fuel within] the defensible lines is inexhaustible. lam quite aware fchafc the ( pinion I am aboufc to give would be worthless were it not based upon practical experience ; but having thafc practical experience — to wit, five or six years' service as a war correspondent on the othor side of the equator — I do nofc hesitate to say that Parihaka could be held for months (barring a successful surprise) by five hundred men against fire thousand unprovided with artillery. And this ia the place that those who have never seen it, speak of going to tako as though ifc wero a mere matter of veni, vidi, vici ! All honour to them for their pluck, but thore is lacking tho discretion born of knowledge. For an account of tho ceremonies preliminary to tho korero, your readers must refer to the very full telegram published in your issue of August 29 ; and I shall now at once plunge -t» medias ret. Te Whiti, his wife, Tohu, and the principal people to tho number of about 50, having assembled iv the Prophet's whare, I said speaking through the interpreter to Te Whiti : " I have como from Christchurch, the largo city of the island of the green stono. I am a mun of a nowspaper— a nowspaper that all men know. Wo who reside in the other island search for tho reasons of tho troubles that exist between the European tribe and tho Maori tribes. We want to find out whether tho wrong is with tho Government, or with the ordinary European, or with the newspapers of tho North Island. Wo wish to know tho truth. We are awaro of what is said in the Bible 'that all men (that is pakehas) are liars,' and so I havo como from the ishnd of tho green stone to have a personal interview with you, to talk with you face to face, and by ourselves, so that tho Europeans of fcho other island may understand what is right. They number ever so many moro than tho Furopeanß of this island, and arc much more powerful, and they will see tho truth and tho thing that is right if I put ifc down in my newspaper. r lhis is the proper thing to do, bo that justice and thafc which is good be tho portion of the Muori tribes and raco. This is what I ask of you : fchafc you consent to see me, and hearken you now to me. Now, 0 Te Whiti, I am nofc a Government man, and I belong nofc to the armed men ; I have nothing to do with these. Our conversation, should we have one, will bo for you to say and nofc writo ifc. That will bo well. Tho ordering of this will bo with you." Te Whiti : Yes, you are quite right ; thafc is tho only way in which you can get tho truth. Myself : I havo come here to Parihaka to see you about the Nativo difficulty. To Whiti : lam doubtful whether the in format ion I can give you will bo of any benefit to the Native tribos. You Bay you aro from tho South Island, bufc I believe that you aro a Government official from tho South Island. Myself : lam nofc a Government official. As I havo olready explained to you, I have no connection with any Government, but havo come from a newspaper that is anxious to inform all the peoplo of the South Island as to the merits of this disputo. You may regard me as for the purposes of this interview being that newspaper. Tc Whiti : You have como here to get information from mo so that you will bo able to report to tbe peoplo of tho South I»laud tho truth of tho case If you want information I advise you to study for a little while. Waiting a little whilo and studying it is possiblo you may get somo information. Myself: I have studied the Nativo difficulty from all the points of view, from whicli it can bo studied, excepting Parihaka : I have come to Parihaka in ordor that I may stand hero and look at it. Te Whiti : Bufc my talking to you will bo like talking over a mountain, because you will not hear ifc [meaning that I would hear his voice, bufc would not understand the figurative speech of the Maori.] Myself : Nofc so, To Whiti, becauso there ia betweon us a man (tho interpreter) through whom your voico to me and my voice to you go, and overything Ib made clear to us. To Whiti : Yes, that is very truo. I Afc this stage, as To Whiti was evidently desirous of considering tho matter, and discussing with his principal peoplo us to whether my Btatement as fco being a Government official was true or not, the interpreter and I left tho whare, returning after a considerable interval, when tho conversation was resumed. To Whiti : Have you nofc como a long way for nothing ? [This question, as explained to mo by the interpreter, was with a view of drawing me out.] Myself : Yes, Te Whiti, I have como a very long way, bufc I should bo well pleased to hear more than I have heard this afternoon. Te Whiti : All your peoplo in the South Island well know that the Govornment aro in tho wrong. If you had no suspicion that the Governmont aro in tho wrong you would never have come hero to get information from me about tho Native difficulty. Mjself : That is tho very thing, tho truth of which I have come here to find out. The accounts we hear aro 88 varied as tho sources from which they come, and 1 have therefore como to enquire myself from all sources, including you, Te Whiti, and then to draw my own conclusions. -v Te Whiti : Ido not know whether it is oft any uso my tiring out my lips to tell you about the way in whicli the Government has wronged us. What I mean by wronging us is this — thieving our land, and then calling it " confiscation" (rau oto patu). Did you not hear, in tho South Island, about the land that was takon from us, and then called " confiscated land." Myself: Yes, wo have heard all about what the Govornmont call " confiscated land." I have como here to hear what you havo to say about ifc, so that wo may bo able to judge between the two. -„ To Whiti : Ido not think the people have any powsr over tlie Government ; the Government rule the peoplo. We do not complain of the people, but of the Government. lam quito suro that if the people had the power we would have just ico dono. Myself : But the people have tbo power ; ifc is tbey who elect the Parliament, tho majority in tho Parliament control the Ministry ; therefore it is fche peoplo who govern. Te Whiti : If the people, as you say, have the power, how is it they did nofc settle the Maori troubles before ? I do not think tho people have got tho power, becauso I know ifc is tho Government that makeß the laws, and ifc is the laws that prevent the people i from having tho power. Myaolf : Jusfc bo. Ifc is quite possible thafc 1 a Government may be in office that does not i qarry out tho wishes of Parliament, and ifc is i also quite possible that a Parliament may be t in existence that docs not carry out tho views • of the peoplo, but it can havo power for only s a limited period. Thero are times— such as i the present— when the people are callod upon

to elect representatives — when they have tho power in their own hands 7' Thatfilftlid fiffie: for the peoplo to make their porfer felt. To Whiti : That is very true ; but I am very doubtful whether, if another Parliament is elected, it will have different laws from the old Parliament. Xou are a man who has a greafc deal to do with the largest paper in the South Island. [Myself: Yes, in the Colony.] You must know that tho Government makes tho laws, and if they wish anything put in the papers the people cannofc prevent it. Myself : Not so. Tho people look to us to guide them as to what men fchey should elect. Neither tho Government nor the people havo any control over what we put in our paper. ■ Te Whiti (after considerable hesitation) : That is true. Changing the subject : Do you nofc know the reason why the Government said that we are the cause of the trouble in theso districts ? Do you nofc know ? Myself : No ; the people in tho South Island do nob know. That is why I have come hero to find out from you what your opinion is. -^ To Whiti : The cause of tho trouble here is this that nofc only this Government, bufc Governments which have been Governments beforo them up to the present timo have, been doing nothing but thieving our land] from us, and calling ifc " confiscated land." J That is the reason why we have ploughed Ihef land. We consider the' land we have ploughedl to be our own. We ploughed it that the Gol vernment might see that we consider it oursl Who was killed to givo the Govornment any| reason to say thafc we caused trouble in these districts ? Myself : That lam not prepared to say. Te Whiti : No, I know you are not prepared to say. Myself : Do you draw any distinction between the land on this Bide of the Waingongoro and the other side ? Te Whiti : What land do you mean ? Myself : The land on the other side of the Waingongora thafc you have been ploughing [meaning Livingstone's and Finlayson's.] Te Whiti : How did they (tho settlers) get that land? Myself : I believe by purchase. Te Whiti : From whom ? Myself : From the Governmont. To Whiti: Who did the Government purchaso it from ? Myself : We in the South Island hear that the Government confiscated ifc from the Natives after the wars. Te Whiti : Yea ; they call it confiscated, but they thieved ifc. We do nofc know that there is any boundary at the Waingongoro — it is all one block. Myself: In going across the Waingongoro, did you consider the land jou plough d yours ? Te Whiti : Yes. When we went fco plough our own land they took us prisoners. If we give the Government any cause fco take us prisoners ifc would nofc havo mattered, bufc we did nofc give tho Government any cause. If we had lifted arms as the Government has done, I would then consider that the Government had a right to, take us prisoners. The people knew very well that wo did nofc plough with the intention of killing anybody. Wo went quietly to work, and when the Govornment; came* to arrest us off our own land we gave ourselves up quietly. If we had any intention of rising in arms to do tho Europeans harm, and had also carried out that point, the Government would havo had cause to cry out ; but we did not do bo, and still we do nofc intend to do ao. The Government may take the prisoners as far as thoy like, but we do nofc intend to fight. The Government knows well that we do not intend to fight. Although the Government has taken these men prisoners, I say they will not be able to settle the Maori difficulty in tho Supremo Court. Myself: At present the Government say that is their intention. To Whiti: When thoy thieved tho land from us they did nofc think it necessary to hold a Supreme Court over it ; bufc now, when we aro trying peaceably to get our stolen land back again, they take our men prisoners, and hold a Supremo Court over them. Myself : May I put a question to you relative to something you are reported to have said on tho 18th of last month ? To Whiti: Yes. Myself : It is reported that you said that fchis matter cannot bo settled in a Court of Law, that it must be settled at Parihaka. If you did say so, what waß your meaning ? Te Whiti: That is not one question : thafc is two. Myself: Well, I will nofc ask your meaning: I will ask you did you say so. Tc Whiti (excitedly) : Who did you gefc your information from ? Myself : It came to me through a Maori. To Whiti : Yes, I suppose so, from some Maori that wanted something to talk aboufc. Myself : I got ifc from a source which I am bound to believe. To Whiti : I did nofc say that tho prisoners would havo to be brought back to Parihaka to have fche matter settled. Myself : I did nofc say thafc you said that tho prisoners would have to bo brought back to Parihaka to have tho matter settled, bufc that you said that the matter would have to bo settled afc Parihaka, not in a Court of Law. [No answer]. Te Whiti (returning to the subject; after a pause) .- Why arc the Government keeping those men prisoners? They might just as well shoot or hang them— it will bo' all tho same in tho ond. Myself (laughing) : You would not havo caught mo hero if the Government had shot or hung the prisoners. To Whiti : You would have been afraid to come? Myself : Certainly ; I should have expected tho same treatment at your hands. To Whiti: Then you say you wero not afraid to come because tho Government have nofc killed the prisoners, but I Bay it is just tho samo as though thoy had been killed. In my oyes it is the same, and you havo therefore the samo reason to bo afraid as though they had boen killed. Myself : lam not afraid because I bcliovo you to be a just man, and I know that I have never dono you, nor do I contemplate doing you, any wrong ; therefore, I was not afraid to come. To Whiti: Yes, if they had killed tho prisoner a, you might have como jusfc aB you have come now; ifc would have mado no difference to me. Why have they not been killed? Myself : Wo do nofc kill our prisoners except for murder, and then only after trial. These Maori prisoners are being treated as European trespassers would be treated. Tho Law makes no distinction. At this stage a pause of somo duration took placo, broken by a general conversation, in the courso of which allusion to tho Mount Cook prisoners wai again made, and great interest was manifested in the information I was in a position to givo, relative to thoir condition, treatment, &c. On mentioning the fact that thoir friends were allowed to bring them food, To Whiti said: "Yes, these ore tho people who are the cause of the very trouble that you want to get at the bottom of." (Another pause.) *>^ To Whiti : If tho peoplo in tho South leland, and also in this Island, wish to have the difficulty settled between the two races, either the one way or the other, thoy must] turn out tho Government, and find some other] means of settling this disputo, without apJ pointing any Government to do so. * This ho repeated several times, laying great s'ress upon the necessity (from hiß point of viow) of turning out the present Minutry. So ended tho formal portion of the korero. It was followed by general conversation in which, however, Te Whiti took little part, except when allusion was made to the prisoners at; Mount Cook and Dunedin, when no immediately manifested great curiosity I concerning them. Of the deeply-interesting levonts of the night spent in tho whar6 surIrounded by " the untutored aavage," time Jwill not at present permit me to speak.