HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 2597, 21 July 1876, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Tho Houso resumed at 7.30 p.ra. CANTEBBUBY J? ASTOBAL LEASING BILL. Mr Rolleston said thafc tho hongenfcloman who movod tho eooond reading of fcho Bill had nofc mado himsolf fully acquainted wifch tho morifcß of fcho question. Ho doprcoated fcho Bill as ono making a distinction botwoon olassoß. Ho would bo prepared to disouss tho question solely upon its merits. Ho thought thafc a quostion of this kiud should bo judgod on tho ground as to whafc was bosfc for fcho country afc largo rather than on legal toohnioalitios. Putting up thoso runs to auotion, ho hold was not giving an equal chanoo to all. The proposals of fcho hon member would only work for fcho boneflt of fcho prosonfc holders of runs. Tho State would nofc benefit by thorn at all. Ho boliovod that a grazing tonuro should bo tho only tonuro givon to runholdors. Tho country should bo kopfc open for settlement and freo solootion} long tonuroß fco pastoral tenants would nofc bo productive of muoh good to tho gonoral publio. Tho appointmont of valuers, as undor clauso 4, was opon to more objections than tho proposal for compensation, and seemod to

be an attempt to play into the hands of pastoral < tenants. If these leases were held undor pre-emptive rights, then the Aot had no value whatever. It was a dangerous power to plaoo in tho hands of the Waste Lands Board to allow them to determine what was front oountry and what was baok oountry. Knowing every part of Canterbury thoroughly ho knew there wore parts of baok oountry that oould only carry a sheep to four or flvo aores, whilo there were other parts that would oarry a sheop to the aoro, and consequently tho division of fcho baok oountry and fronfc country would not meet tho oiroumsfcanoes of fcho caso afc all. Ho believed, on the whole, thafc runholdors had acted vory fairly in the Provinoo of Canterbury in respect to runs and their pre-emptive rights, and tbe arrangements of the Wasto Lands Board had givon genoral satisfaction, and been productive of as little olass fooling as could woll have been expooted. No worse evil oould happen to a country than this spasmodic Legislation. He wanted to see tho largest possible reutal obtained from tho Orown lands in the interest of the oountry, and depreoated any aotion of tho Houso that would destroy the feeling of safety in the investment of capital as would in all probability ensuo from legislation of fchis kind. Ifc would bo a greafc wrong for the Houeo to bo guilty of a broaoh in fche common understanding that had been arrived at in Canterbury respooting pastoral lands.

Mr Habpbb moved that the Bill bo read thafc day six months. He thought tho introduction of tho Bill would raise a class feeling that had lain dormant for a long time. Largo sums of money had been advanced from timo to timo on the security of pastoral proporty, and this had been done on the understanding thafc there would be a certain degree of continuity of leases. Ho denied that thoro was any finality about the Aot whatever, or thafc ifc would produoe fche benefloial results claimed for it. It was far more likoly that ifc would lead to the majority of the runs boing thrown baok into the hands of Government. He might mention that Boarooly a single oandidate was returned in Canterbury who was not pledged to support tho systom of assessment. The quostion was one that had been disoussod ovor and over again in Canterbury. There was a general desire shown that the present oooupiers should havo a ohance of taking over thoir runs again after assessment.

Mr Fishep. would vote for the seoond reading. It was not human naturo to suppose that the gentleman in ohargo of the Bill, a runholder himself, would be likely to iotroduoo a measure that would bring ruin upon him or his class. Tho faot of ifc was fche Government of Canterbury had not, for years, had any control over these lands. In the majority of the instanoes these pastoral lands had been in the hands of the Philistines. It was the loan companies, and others like them, who reaped tho profits that should belong to the oountry. Mr Shbehan supported the seoond reading. Ib appeared to him that the attitude of the Ministry on this question was the same as it had boon on other oooasions. They were waiting to sco how things were going, and when they found the winning side, to go into tho question on it bald-headed. This debate should be adjourned for the same reason that other Bills affecting the polioy of tho oountry had been postponed. It was quite olear to him thafc Government wero taking a leap in the dark. Ho knew something of the squatting distriots, and he knew that amongst them it was oonsidored treason for anyono to advooate anything that would tend to deprive the squatters of any of tho pastoral lands. Still, he was prepared to admit the great good tbe Colony had dorivod in tho early days from the squatters. Ho considered that the Oolony was on tho ove of a groat ohange. No one know what that ohange would bring about, whether it would bo one Oolony, ono purse, and ono Government, or financial separation of tho two islands. He held it would be unfair to pass this Bill now, and so steal a maroh upon the Houso. To pass it would mako away with so large a proportion of the publio estate os to amount to 6s 8d in the pound. This Bill oould bo adjournod with as muoh roason as the Counties and othor Govemmont Bills. He would move that the Bill be road that day threo weeks. Tho Hon 0. 0. Bowen pointed out that the Promior had depreoated the introduction of the Bill in consequonoo of Government having a measuro whioh was to doal with tho whole question of the administration of waste lands, and ho had no doubt whatever that, when that Bill was brought down, it would be moro acooptablo to the House than tho prosont Bill was, muoh as it would provido for kooping tho lands for settlement. As far as Cantorbury lands were conoorned thoy had always been open for small settlements. Tho last nows they had from Canterbury showed that enormous purohases were being mado by bond fide purchasers from one ond of tho Provinoo to the other. Government did nofc want fco entor upon a disoussion of the moasuro now boforo tho House, as they wore prepared to introduoo a system dealing with tho Cantorbury pastoral lands in a satisfactory mannor.

Mr Wakepibld concurred with the member for Bodney that tho Bill ehould be postponed. He also agreed with him that the Premier's declaration on the matter did not affoot tho oaso, booauso fche proper thing for the Govornment to have dore would have been, whon the sooond reading was moved, to havo moved tho provious question, _or at onoo lot tho House know what thoir opinions and intontions wero upon tho matter. There Bhould not havo beon that silence that thoy had scon on fcho Govornment benches. Bofor that Bill or any ofchor was brought down, tho House should havo had somo indication as to tho polioy to bo pursuod with regard to the wholo of tho waste lands of tho Oolony.

Mr Rees supported tho adjournment of the dobato on tho samo grounds that ho had opposed tho postponement of tho othor Bills. Ho would liko lo know when the Govornmont would havo all thoir Bills ready to lay beforo tho House, booauso the Bill of tho hon membor for Ooloridgo raisod a question that affected tho polioy of tho Govornment in a vital point. Sir R. Douglas was porfootly astonished to hoar hon members, ono after another, ask thafc this Bill, and that Bill, ond indeed, every Bill bo postponed. Why not ask at onoo that everything bo postponed, so tbat they might all havo a fair start P

Mr J. 0. Brown opposed tho postponement of tho Bill. Tho question should be disoussod thero and thon. He would inform tho Houso that, in the distriot for wbioh he was roturnod, he did not get a single squatter's voto simply booauso ho was known to advocate tho Bale of tho runs. No policy moro favourable to tho squatters fchan that Bill oould pos* sibly bo found, and ho therefore wanted the question dealt with al the present moment, and disposed of at onoe.

The debate was adjourned for three' weeks. OBNSUS AOT AMENDMENT BILL. In Committee on tbis Bill, Mr Stout said tbat if tbe census was only to be taken once in ten years, as in England, we might as well not take the census at all, and abolish the department at onoe. In a new Oolony to take the census every ten years was utterly useless. A good deal of objootion was takon to theßill. The hon 0. 0. Bowhk pointed out that no hardship would result because agricultural statistics, and very careful statistics as to births, deaths, and immigration and emigration would bo prepared annually. He thought they might be satisfied with that Bill. In 1881 the value of their statistics would be increased if taken at the same time as all the rest of the British Empire. There had been a general concurrence of opinion iv the adjoining Colonies that there should be a census held every ten years at the same time as the English census was token. He held that to take the next triennial census, according to the present law, would be incurring au unnecessary expense of at least £12,000. Aftor a good deal of discussion, Mr WAXB-.IBLD moved an amendment to the third olause, so as to make it read that tha oensus should not be taken in 1876, and striking out remainder of clauso. The amendment was lost by one vote, the division being 30 against 29. The Bill was then amended, so as to read that the oensus be taken not later than 1879, and reported with amendments ; and the House went into Committee on the bating bill. Olause 36 passed as amended previously. Clauses 37, 38, 39 passed. In Olause 40, subsection, the Pbbmibb moved the addition of the following words — " Provided that where any suoh lands are now liable to be rated, the same shall continue to be rateable property." Considerable disoussion ensued without any result being arrived at, and at length progress was reported, the House adjourning at 12.45 p.m. Thubbday, July 20. The House met at 2.30 p.m. notiobs ov motion. Mr Bbnnbdy gave notioe of motion that he would move for a subsidy of not more than £800 per year to a tug boat to take vessele in and out of Greymouth, the local Boards contributing one-third of the subsidy. Mr Rbbs gave notice of motion that ho would move for a Seleot Committee to inquire into complaints of Mr Farnall, late Immigration Agent in Ireland. ADJTOUBNMBNT. The Pbbmibb proposed that the House, on its rising at half-past five o'olook, should ad* journ till next day. Government had been given to understand that suoh would be agreeable to the House. Mr Stout opposed the adjournment, bnt the motion was agreed to on the voices. LOCAL BOBBOWING. Mr Rollbston asked whether he could have a return prepared, showing approximately the extent of the borrowing powers authorised by Aots of the General Assembly to be exercised by Municipalities, Harbour Boards, River Boards, Drainage Boards, or other publio bodies, and the extent to wbioh suoh power had been exercised. The Pbbmibb said that the return could be prepared, but whether it conld be this Session was another matter, inasmuch as it would involve a reference probably to most of the looal bodies, but if the hon member would give notice of motion for tbe return, he would mstruot the Treasury officers to prepare it as rapidly as was consistent with due attention to their ordinary official duties. OTAGO LAND SALES. Mr Stout asked (1) if all correspondence between the Government and persons in Otago in referenoe to the applications of Messrs Neill, Shennan, and others for land had been laid before the House. (2) If not, whether the correspondence not before the House is of an unofficial oharaoter ? The hon H. A. Atkinson said that the whole of the official correspondence had been laid upon the table. Government had had communications from many persons down there, but as these telegrams were of an unofficial nature, they would not be produced. NATIVB BXPBNDITUBB. Mr Mubbay moved that there be laid before the House a return showing the expenditure out of the loan and revenue from June 80, 1872, for Native and defenoe purposes, in continuation of Uie return prepared to that date. Ihe motion was agreed to. CIVIL BBBVANTS. Mr Mubbay moved that there be laid beforo the House a return, showing what salaried officers of the General Government are permitted to receive remuneration for services outside of their servioe to the General Government; the amount of snoh remuneration and the nature of suoh services. The Pbbmibb deprecated making such motions without a word of explanation. To carry Out the objeot of the resolution, as set forth, would be quito impossible without an Aot of Parliament to enable them to investigate the privato affairs of those ontitlod to accept employment outside of the Government service. The hon gentleman then proceeded to enumerate tbe different olasses of General Government offioers to whom the resolution applied, suoh as Registrars of Births, Deaths, and Marriages all ovet the Colony, Revising Officers, country Postmasters, vaccinators, olerks who rendered outside assistance to Friendly Societies, the SolicitorGenoral (though he was not quite certain on that point), olerks of petty sessions engaged in business, signal men stationed on the coast, and harbour masters. Suoh a return would be enormously bulky and impossible to supply j to far as it was obtainable within reasonable limits they would do so. Sir G. Gbbt said that if the system of the Government were conducted upon the ordinary plan adopted in oivilsed countries, thero ought to bono difficulty in supplying the desired information. On the motion of Mr Maoandbbw tbe motion was amended so as to inolude only offioers receiving salaries above £260 per annum. Mr Thomson moved that the following words be struok out — " amount of suoh remuneration and nature of such services," and said that the Premier ought to have known what was really intended by tho motion without dragging in country Post-masters and Registrars. Mr Mubbay also made similar observations, and said there were high offioers in the Government servioe, who by outside work made as much as their ordinary salary, and often negleoted their departments in attending to suoh work. BABBIT NUISANCB. On tlw motion of Mr Hodqkinbon ik waa

agreed to appoint a Select Committee to m quire into the rabbit nuisance. CONSOLIDATED BBVBNUB. Mr Stevens moved for a return showing the contributions to tbe Consolidated Bevenno of each Province during the financial year ending June 30, 1876. Agreed to. POBTBAITS OF THE BPBAXBBS. Mr Wakhfibld moved that the Speaker be invited to communicate the desire of tiio House to Sir David Monro and Sir Fraada 1 Dillon Bell, former Speakers of the House, I that portraits of thoee gentlemen shall be placed in the precincts of the Hoose sido by side with that of Sir Charles Clifford, first Speaker of the House. I Mr J. 0. Bbown had so objection provided the House was not asked to pay the expense. (Laughter). The hon 0. C Bowen doubted whether it would be a compliment to ask thoee gentlemen to go to tho expense of procuring their portraits to adorn the chamber <-f the H<W»s% because that would probably involve a journey to England. Mr Wakbtibld said that he was grieved that the House should have reoeived liia motion in tbat way. He confessed he felt somewhat humiliated — (laughter) —by tha manner in which the proposal was received, and he did not 'exempt the Government. (Laughter.) He certainly would never have brought the motion forward had he thong*.*; it would have been received in such a manner. LOCAL OPTION LICENSING BILL. Mr Joyob said hit experience had impressed bim with the belief that prohibition had been a failure. It had been said that if our people did not drink they conld pay off half the debt, but it appeared to him tbat much more than half the interest on onr debt had been paid by means of duty upon intoxicating liquors, and as faras he could see, that had to be looked forward to for all time aa a means from whioh the Colony was in a great measure to draw tiie sinews of war for carrying on the publio service. Great objection was taken to what waa called the vested interests of publicans. WeS, he would recommend one mode of getting rid of that, let them adopt the system of painless extinction by gradually reducing tiie duties oa spirits. They had been told of the dreadful evils resulting from free trade in liquor, and Liverpool was instanced asa dreadful example, but perhaps the principle had not been tried long enough. Free trade in liquor was practised in France without any evil result, and even English navvies who were sent over there drank with moderation after their first " burst." Mr Bowb supported the Bill. It waa a mistake to oall it prohibition. It waa merely placing in the hands of the people a power that they had in many direotions, and ought to have in this. He knew the benefits of such a measure, as he had lived for seven years in a place where there was no liquor and no Justice of Peace, and they never needed oaa. [La reply to a question, the hon member stated that the place was Eawau, where between 300 and 400 men lived.] Mr Habpbb opposed the second reading af the Bill, which would only introduce an expensive piece of machinery that would ba productive of no good whatever. When notice would be given that an election was to take place, respecting a bouse applying fora license, the publican would exert his utmost influence to secure the support of those whom he eoold prevail upon to vote for bim, aod to prevent those from voting who might be opposed to granting a license. Mr Hodgiinson supported the BAI. There were features connected with tiie liquor traffic which were anything but creditable to the Colony, and every means should be taken to lessen the great and growing vice of intemperance. Mr Mandbbs opposed the BilL The liquor laws required consolidation more than extension. Mr Bbycb opposed the Bill, but from very different reasons to the hon member for Wailam. The argument that people should ba trusted with tbis power, as in other matters, was not a fair argument. The cases were not analogous. He had no objection to see people trusted in this, as in other matters, by placing the control oi the question in the bands of a Board. That would be an analogous case. Mr Stout replied, saying that a great argument why the Bill should pass was tiie mormons amount of money spent on liquor in the Colony, an amount not less than £3,000,000 annually. The money spent in liquor did no good to anybody, and if it were saved weneed have little cause to borrow. It bad been said that England drank herself ont of debt when the revenue from liquor became very large, but if England's working men had saved that money instead of drinking, would the country not have been better as well as richer. It was a great mistake to suppose tbe duties collected on liquor did the coantry any good. Hake away from it the cost of gaols, hospitals, and lunatic asylums, the largest proportion of which could fairly be put down to liquor, and there would be little, if any margin left. The hon gentleman tbfn quoted from published reports from Canada, United States, and England as to the working of prohibitive laws, and the great benefits flowing from those laws by their tendency to diminish the consumption of spirits. It bad been said that as the race was gradually becoming more enlightened and civilised there was less occasion for such a law, but it might as well be said tbat because murder and other crimes were gradually becoming rarer, we therefore seed not invoke the aid uf repressive legislation. He did not claim that the Bill was more than a step in the right direction, and that it would have a tendency to lessen the drinking habits of the people. Tbe question was not one they should look at standing with folded arms, while tbey saw the people were becoming more degraded. There were noble and cultivated men in the Colony, who, through being given up to the demon drink, were a curse to themselves, to their friends, and to the Colony, li the Bill could only be the means of rescuing twenty or thirty of these men, it would bave done some good. Whether tbe Bill were read a second time or not, the question was ace that v >uld assert and re assert its claim to public attention. It must go on, it would go on, until it was eventually grappled with. The House divided, and the second reading ot the Bill was carried by thirty-eight against twenty eight. The Bill was read a second time, and its committal fixed for that day week. AUCKLAND INSTITUTE BILL. This BUI was read a second time. CANTEBBUBY EDUCATIONAL MSBBVBS SALE BILL. In Committee, Clause 8 (College may invest moneys received), was amended so as to make it compulsory for the College to invest the noneys arising from sales of lands. ▲ new clause was introduced, providing

that the Aofc should oome into operation on Ootober 2, 1876. Before reading tbe Bill a third time, Mr Stout expressed regret that tho fourth clause should be passed in tho form ifc was, by making College lands subject to tho Waste Lands Regulations of Canterbury. Mr Rolleston, while agroomg with the hon gentleman in principle, said thafc, in this partioular case, ifc would be a breaoh of agreement not to deal wifch these lands, as was sot forth in the Aot. The hon gentleman thon road a ; resolution of tho Provinoial Oounoil, whioh ', explained his statement. The Bill was then passed. DUNEDIN HABBOUB. Mr Ma*oandbbw read a telogram from Dunedin, stating that tho Taupo had gone up ' to the Rattray streofc wharf, drawing twelve feet six, and that she passed Maoandrew's. corner without stopping hor way or stirring up the mud. . The regaining business was postponed, and the House adjournod. {From a CorrcsponAeni of fht Lyttelton Times.) Wellington, July 20. '„. The Hoose does not sit to-night, owing to the ball at Government Houbo.. , BothMrWakofleld'sandMrWhitaker'sland jreyonue resolutions will oerfcainly be rejeoted, Tbut it is by no moans improbable that when this is done fche two minorities may unito in forming a majority in opposing the G ovornUndent proposals, Parties aro likoly to boa good deal mixed over the affair. Ifc is said " the Government groatly regret being bound by their paßt , professions to oppose Mr Whifcakor's proposals, and many of fcheir friends blame them for nofc having oome boldly down and said tho land fund must be Oolonial revenue. Ifc is confidently asserted that had fchoy done so fchey would havo had a majority. Personally, Ministers aro Baid to be favourable fco Mr Whifcakor's views. The Opposition arebeooming everyday more confident on the separation question. They alow say fchey havo forty votes pledged to tho financial separation, and evory probability of several more. Ifc has nofc yot boon determined in whafc Bhape fcho question will bo brought forward, bufc ifc is suro to oome. , The Government would have proposed £5000 for Dr Featherston'e family had thoy not disoovdrcd that suoh a proposal would be vigorously opposod. Ab ifc was, many mom- ' hers strongly objeoted to the £3000, and it was only with groafc difficulty thafc thoy wore induoed to let it pass without protest. Nofching seems yefc fixed as to when the great debate is to commence. Mr Shoehan's arrival has put fresh life into ; the Opposition.