THE PREMIER AT AUCKLAND.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 2044, 25 September 1874, Page 3

THE PREMIER AT AUCKLAND.

The following report of the Premier's recent speech to his constituents is reprinted from the Nexo Zealand Herald of September 16. It-should be stated that such portions of the speech; as related to purely local matters have -been. left out: —

tTrfr-Hadjwe'in'lß69 proposed anything like the scale of settlement and expenditure which Ihare- token place- during- the last five years, I amfcettir&to rsay 'that such proposals would item? received no support; •"•• It ! was the gradual prog»v33 of thoae works and the encourage-Emeni-P which 'that gradual progress afforded that has enabled great results to be achieved, -BBxUwliich-promise-still greater results in the }fufcui l b."«(Gheerfli) -Had we merely had to deal with the Middle Island throughout this period jl- had we merely to state to the Middle chfaland: thatit was desirable to construct large public works, the matter would have been simple, because there would Have been the land fund of the Middle Island si* «af ready- resource with which to carry oufc improvements. in dealing with /this question of the North Island, to deal with -prejudices of a > very strong nature. Perhaps it r is hardly fair to call them prejudices. We , had fco" deal with convictions as to rights of "property that were very strong. We had to edeal with them very cautiously and very caref fully. • We had, in fact, to shew that the steps we were taking were steps in the interest of both Islands. It is now twelve months since I may say that policy culminated in the 6oibny agreeing to the purchase of a land estate for the North Island to the extent of

,£700,000. I know this, that a Minister is placed in a very difficult position when he /represents , a, large constituency in which there are active political differences swaying his constituents. It is a very great difficulty which a Minister labours under who is rarely able to make his appearance to state what is really the case, and who is constantly condemned when he knows that are not particularly scrupulous, or are very excitable in their imagination, are 1 able to go before his constituents and state: which are not correct or liable to lead to incorrect inferences. (Cheers.) I believe there are many of those whom 1 now address

fchis evening who have attended many public during the hist two years. Some of the reports of those meetings I have read, and I have failed to notice that any stress has been laid on the fact — a fact most remarkable in ; history of the colony — the fact that thtAssembly, without a division, was willing to agree to an expenditure of £700,000 for the (.pujpoep of purchasing a landed estate for the provinces of the North Island. When there are those who come before you and say that you should insist upon having Provincial revenue—the land revenue of the Southern Island — are they fair when they abstain from telling you that the Southern Island has committed itself to the purchase of a landed ■. estate for this North Island ? Are they fair "in withholding from you the fact — or what I believe to be a fact — and that is, that whilst : you, perhaps did make a very bad bargain in 1856, in renouncing the Middle Island land fund, you would, perhaps, be making an equally bad bargain now if you insisted upon renouncing your own land revenue for the

purpose of sharing with those of the Middle Island ? Are you always to be at a disad-

vantage ? Are you to forget that the proba- . bilityis that this Island will support a very much larger amount of human life than tho other Island ; and that as a consequence the lands, whether from climate or from what-

ever cause.. it may be, will, taking the area ragainst area, be in the long run more intrinsically valuable ? lam not speaking of the value, which speculators may give to the land in the market, but the true test of the revalue of land is the amount of hnman life it will support. From the land we derive nearly everything. Indeed, I may say every- : .thing we require, directly or indirectly, comes .from the land ; and if we believe, as we have t 'a right to believe, that this Island will in the long run support a larger amount of human Qlife than the other Island, I think you will njfind) even if you had your way, the time jjwquld. come when you would perhaps regret the new bargain you desire to make, as you now regret the old bargain to which you , ;> committed 'yourselves. (Cries of " No," and ! cheers.) Gentlemen, I shall now ask you to

•come down with me o events of a later r,date,— rl will aik you to allow me to refer ■to th© last session — the session which is just over. Now, one of tLe very important bills that were brought forward by the Government .was a bill to enable a small portion „of the colony to beset apart, unalienably, as State forests. -Gentlemen, I am sorry to say that all the information which has reached , mo, leads me to suppose that that measure was grossly misrepresented to you. You were told that the Government were going to seize your kauri forests ; that the Government were going to seize the land revenue which still belonged to the city of Auckland ; that it was an act of .spoliation, and so on. Now, you ought to reasonably consider this : Is it not a most pro..fligate, a most wicked thing for us, when we start in a career which mußt undoubtedly lead jjto,-the,use of an enormous extent of timber in* excess of what has been hitherto used,

if we fail to remember this

that whilst

we are using up we are not preserving rand not creating? I can conceive nothing more wicked, nothing more eccentric, than a desire to ''male political capital out of questions such' as the?e. It is a question in . which every peraon is intimately interested who has any idea of looking forward to the future, and it is a question of so large a nature that it really amounts to this thai, with all the improvements which human

ingenuity .could effect in this island, you . would.in reality leave it less valuable to the coming generation if you committed yourselves s to a frightful destruction of the works of nature without repairing them. (Cheers.) The larpe works which we are now undertaking — the telegraph, the railways, and the roads, mean works that will involve and require directly and indirectly the consumption of a large quantity of timber — and - although I do not altogether subscribe to the maxim, it has been very often said that when c once. you, let in the air and light upon a new .government forest it is doomed within a very f brief period. Now, gentlemen, the policy of public works means the sending forth the axe in every direction throughout the colony, and are you not to make any provision for the future ? are you not to remember that In destroying all the natural features of the country you may destroy its intrinsic value -■to such an extent as would make a mere 'bagatelle any comparison of the improve"- " ments. which you can effect ? Well, we were met on this forest question by the came eternal

1 o^-o^'ir.n — t.b:>: it was inconsistent with pro- | \ ii.ei.il institutions. It caused a large number of men in tlw House to ask themselves the question, as many have asked themselves the question before — How long will ail the quesI lions of a large an i national nature be sacrificed by I his same question — the difficulty interposed by the provincial form of Government? A small portion — an extent of three per cent, of the land of the colony — was to be set apart as Stat« forests, to be, at any rate, preserved for State forests, whilst the axe and the saw were in every direction penetrating the forests of the colony. To ask to preserve such a email remnant of the timber of the colony, which is a correct thing, in lieu of that which was being destroyed was a simple question ; and then we are told that provincial queationj interfered. I say that had a very i large amount of effect, not only on the minds of the Government, but it had a large effect on the minds of all thinking men throughout the colony. When the public works and immigration scheme was first brought down to Parliament— a scheme which I may say now has been adopted, not only by Parliament, but by the country — and which is, therefore, not now the plan or scheme of one or more individuals, but it is the plan and scheme of the whole colony — when that scheme was adopted it was stated in terms of no equivocal nature that it was not desirable at the time to mix up with that scheme large | questions of Constitutional reform, affecting ! the Provincial organisations and the Provincial form of Government ; and it was stated, also, that if the scheme of Public Works and Immigration throughout the colony was antagonistic to or irreconcilable with the Provincial form of Government, that it was so much the worse for the Provincial form of Government, and that there was no doubt which would have to yield. Gentlemen, those who have had the charge of that policy from that day to this, have endured manydfficulties rather than be compelled to comedown with recommendations for Constitutional change* ; but human endurance has its limits, and last session it was thought that the time bad arrived when it was necessary to make a stand upon the subject, and to ask the House and the country to consider it. The condition of things pointed unmistakably in that direction. In dealing with the provincial question, I ask you to allow me to say this — Ido not say it in any disrespectful manner or in a manner which would lead you to suppose that I have any desire to say anything that is at all disagreeable to you — I must ask you to recollect that those who have not a knowledge of different parts of the colony are somewhat at a disadvantage in coining to a '•otu'lußion upon questions which affect the .» nole colony. I am quite sure that a large i number of those who say that they have a ri^ht to come here, not only to say what is good for themselves, but also to insist upon what should be good for the rest of the col.ny, huve not altogether that acquaintance with some parts of the colony which it is desirable they should possess. (Hear and cheers.) There is a difficulty in dealing with these provincial questions. The difficulty is this — that the conditions throughout the | country are of an exceedingly varying nature ; that there is a very wide range of conditions which have to be dealt with when you come to look upon the question from a colonial point of view. There is a question of the Parliamentary pressure which the existence of nine different forms of Government enables those who are the representatives of those Governments to bring forward upon the Central and Colonial Government, and that is a question which has had immense influence upon the past finances of the colony ; it has rendered it almost impossible for any Colonial Treasurer to sit down and to say what is desirable for the colony without having to take into his calculations what would be necessary to meet those varjing financial conditions ; in other words, to put the matter plainly, the representatives of the nine provinces, when they choose to come forward in their representative character, can at any rate make any Government of the colony exceedingly weak in its power, instead of leaving it the strength which the supreme Government of the colony should possess. (Cheers.) But I am not wishing you to believe that this is primarily the cause of the changes which have been proposed. A simple stiitement of what | has been done for this Island is calculated to leave a startling impression. It bus transpired that during the five years ending the 60th of June, 1874, there was expended in this Island, either by the colony or out of moneys provided by the colony, no less an amount than £3,389,000, and that during the three years from 1870 to 1874, there was expended in this North Island either by the General Government or out of funds provided by the General Government, no less a sum than £2,387,000. The purely Provincial revenue during those three years amounted to £448,000. Thus there was this sum of £2,387,600 provided by the colony as against £448,000 of purely Provincial revenue. Gentlemen, if anything can be more clear than another it is this, that those who owe the taxpayers of the colony an explanation of the obligations consequent upon recent taxation should have the control of expenditure. That one Government should raise money, and another expend it, id altogether fatal ti those views of responsibility which the people should demand from those who expend public funds. (Cheers.) There was a question arising out of these figures. That question was one which could not be long deferred, and people would ask themselves whether it was worth having an extensive official machinery in the province for the purpose of doing so little, while the Government of the colony had really to do so much ? We had a very careful account made showing the provincial expenditure of last year, ending the 30th of December. Now, gentlemen, I may venture to affirm, and there are none prepared to deny it, that you have no satisfactory institutions in this Island, and none especially in this province. (Hear, hear.) I think I can say that your institutions are not satisfactory ; that the provisions which are made for charitable purposes, for lunatics, for gaols, are not satisfactory. It is beyond all question that Buch is the case. When we come to look into the apportionment of the expenditure, we find this fact — that while the colony contributed, in the Bhape of capitation allowance during the year 1873, a sum of £88,000, the entire expenditure on harbours, hospitals, lunatic asylums, charitable aid, police, gaols, and education amounted to £58,000 only, or after the deduction of special revenue, the amount derivable was £51,000. So that while we were making provision to the extent of £88,000 the amount of Provincial expenditure was £51,000. Such is tho result of institutions which some will say are eminently satisfactory. You are constantly being harrassed in this province by proposals for obnoxious powers of taxation, which I have no doubt is exceedingly disagreeable to the whole province. (Hear, hear.)

Virtually, I believe it was not -the extent to which you were asked to contribute to educational purposes in this province that .was so disagreeable as the fact that you were asked to place yourselves in the pos : tion of indulging in an obnoxious form of taxation. You were told that you had your choice of seeing your children uneducated or submitting to this taxation. Yet we find that while the amount contributed by the colony during 1873 was £83,000, the amount expended on the various services I have mentioned was only £51,003. Then came the demand from all parts of the colony, and from this province especially, why the license fees which were raised in the rarioua districts of the colony should riot be expended for local purposes. We asked ourselves, why should they not be ? Were we not congratulating ourselves upon a so called local form of government, which was virtually a eham, and which was not a local but a centralised form of government. In Otago, license fees are the property of the towns and districts where they are raised. Tn this province of Auckland everything is absorbed in one common purse, where you are unable to trace the expenditure. During the time of which I have been speaking, there was raised in the province of Auckland no less than £13,000 from license fees, lhe goldfields revenue was £14,000. In fact, Provincial Government had degenerated into a form of Government of a most central character. The last financial year of the colony was a year of very great prosperity. It enabled the Colonial Treasurer to come down with a lavish disposition of the results of that prosperity, so as to meet the various wishes of the provinces. Towards their wants enormous amounts were proposed to be paid out of the consolidated revenue. The capitation allowances to be granted amounted to £241,000. For special allowances, there was a sum of £40,000, of which sum £25,000 was for a special allowance to the province of Auckland. (Hear, hear.) I must say I observed with some regret that a powerful speaker at a public meeting in this place seemed to carry away hiß hearers by the assertion that £25,000 was an affront to the province of Auckland. (Cheers.) Well, these are affronts which I am bound to say other provinces are very willing to accept, and it is to be hoped you will become reconciled if your further need should make you require it. There was an advance to Auckland of £40,000 ; to Nelson, £50,000, and other items which it is not necessary for me to read, but which amounted in the aggregate to the enormous sum of £381,000 out, of the consolidated revenue. You have heard, and heard truly, that we do believe that the land fund shall be held sacred to particular purposes. You must not understand that we believe there are nob a large number of purposes for which the consolidated revenue has been used, and to which it has been applied, to which purposes it would not be also most suitable that the land revenue should be applied. But we say most distinctly that the lands should be preserved for particular objects. We recognise, also, that there are various conditions of the provinces of the two islands requiring attention, but we have systematically during the last five years been compelled to avoid charging land revenue with charges which should properly have been made upon it. We determined to come down with these resolutions, about which so much haß been said. (Hear, hear ; that is the question). These resolutions were to the effect that the provinces in this island should be abolished — that the compact of 1856 should be recognised, and that the seat of Government being at Wellington should be recognised. (Groans, hisses, and cheers, which continued for some time).

The Chairman : It is quite impossible we can go on with these unseemly interruptions. Let us have a patient hearing for Mr Yogel, if you please. lam sure you mean it. (Gheera.)

Mr Yogel : I must say, gentlemen, you are giving yourselves a great deal of unnecessary trouble. I was merely stating the fact — (laughter) — I was merely stating the fact that we had brought down certain resolutions. I suppose you are aware of it. lam quite at a loss to know why you should take so much trouble to exhibit that knowledge. (Laughter and cheers.) We did bring down these resolutions — a resolution which combined these three Mibjucts. Nuw, lam about to explain why these three subjects were combined. The moment we came down with the question of abolishing the provinces there were two Superintendents — and I may lay the leading Superintendents — who were exceedingly displeased with all the proposals. They did not see their way to support anything of the kind. There were meetings of the Superintendents and their followers of a very hostile nature. One Superintendent called bis members together, and said— "Abolishing the provinces of the North Island ; that means to take away our land revenue." Another Superintendent said to his members — " Abolishing the provinces of the North Island ; that moment we remove the seat of Government to Christchurch." Now the Government is utterly powerless in the way of contradicting reiterated false statements. There are no people in any part of the colony who should be more aware of that fact than the residents of Auckland ; you are constantly treated to facts which are not facts, (tiear, and cheers.) And you must recognise how impossible it is for Ministers to spend all their time in making contradictions, and you must see that the only way the Government had of dealing with the matter was in making the resolutions themselves explicit upon the subject. In speakiDg of these resolutions I may Bay first, in regard to the questi n of the seat of Government, that the first session I entered parliament that question was brought forward, and it was carried in a manner which certainly aroused all my strongest objections. It was carried through in a most insolent manner — by the force of a mere majority. It is probably a matter of recollection with many of you here that at that time the Standing Orders of the House permitted questions to be put without discussion ; and so insolent in its power was the then majority, that it absolutely refused to allow the question to bo discussed, and insisted upon an immediate division. I voted against the removal of the seat of Government — (hear, and cheers,) — and I have never had reason to alter my opinion. It was a matter of a most disastrous kind at that time. I have always said, and most thoroughly believed this, that the removal oi the seat of Government should not have been effected whilst the troops were at Auckland, und in order to enable the seat of Government to be removed to Wellington, there was actually a war improvised in the Wanganui district. (Laughter and cheers.) I have never hesitated to express my opinion on the subject of the removal of the seat of Government to Weli lington. But it was done, and years have

passed, and I say to you, and I hope you will -not think the worse of me for speakiug to you frankly and plainly,— l say to you, who are making such a hostile demonstration, that if you were really aware of what was th~ state of opinion in other parts of this Island, you would be aware of the fact that nothing could be more idle than to believe tliafc there was any probability within any reasonable time that the seat of Government would be removed again. The expenditure which has gone on and the time which has reconciled those who represent the various parts of the colony has done the work, and the seat of Government is clearly fixed at Wellington, and were it removed from Wellington, it might not be ■ brought^back to Auckland; Now, gentlemen,- I-know-that it may be a very unpalatable thing to say, but there are many gentlemen here who have been all over these two Islands, and who know the colony of New Zealand, and they cannot, I say, if they are fair, they cannot forbear to support me in what Tarn saying — in stating that there is no probability of the seat of Government being removed back to Auckland within the time we can reasonably look forward to, and if there was a change the probability is that it would rot be in that direction. And when we had to deal with a question of a most important arid pressing nature, which I will show you before I conclude, it would have been absurd on our part to have allowed the misrepresentations which were being made by interested parlies as to our object in proposing these changes, to prevent us from putting the matter so plainly before the Assembly as would lead to the result which was the consequence— the enormous majority in favour of the' resolutions. (Cheers). Gentlemen, I wish to say a few words upon a question that has been dealt with at a public meeting not very far from here, upon what took place at a meeting of members that was held at my house— not in the House, but outside the House of Assembly. It is not usual to refer to matters of this kind, but anything is better than to allow doubts upon a question of so much importance to remain unsatisfied, and I shall therefore refer to the matter. When these resolutions were carried there was a meeting called by the Government, at which some twenty-five mombers attended, and two were absent on account of private reasons, but were heartily with the ' meeting, and the question then arose as to what would be the meaning of those resolutions, and many members got up and said, "What has the question of the abolition of the provinces to do with the question of the seat of Government ? " And some members who were representatives of a part of the province of Wellington especially said so ; and I then explained, as I have explained to-night, that we had introduced that matter into the resolutions because we wished it to be clearly understood, and to prevent any misconception in the matter, that the abolition of these provinces did not mean a removal or change in the seat of Government. Aad it was then generally agreed by the meeting that if a vote waa taken for certain public buildings —a vote of a very large amount for the erection of public buildings which would meet the necessities of the public service for many years to come — that that was a much more practical way of dealing with that matter, without the necessity of its appearing in a bill. There was a general opinion expressed to that effect, and the Auckland members subscribed to that opinion. It was said— lf Why mix that up ? jStill, if you obtain a vote for these public buildings, that settles the question in' a different manner. At any rate, it don't involve us in any pledge that would be distasteful to ourselves personally or to our constituents. We are not here with a view of making any alteration, while, at the same time, we do not wish to make any declaration that would prevent us taking action at a future time, but deal with this matter in the ordinary way. Take your vote for public buildings, but do not mix it up with other questions." That was the general opinion of the meeting. Well, then came the question of the compact of 1856, and then it was said, Why must this also be dealt with in these resolutions? There my recollection ia certainly very much at variance with the recollections of gentlemen who spoke at the meeting to which I referred. I think it was a very stronglyexpressed feeling that, if ib was nob necessary to mention the matter in the bill, it was one upon which hon merribers felb strongly. I wish to put the question thus : No Government should be so arrogant as to attempt to go behind members' votes— to ask members what were their reasons for giving such votes. If a member gives a vote upon the principle that half a loaf is better than no bread, a member of the Government has no right to go behind and say, " I am not content with your vote. Tell . me what was in your mind when you gave that vote!" Now we put it thus to private members. We quarrel with no member who chooses to go to his constituency and say, when I supported this resolution I had this or that in my mind ; but it would be a very different matter when you come to apply a similar principle to members of the Government. They should not have had that arriere pensee, they should be frank and candid in the way of dealing with public subjects. Members of the Government might from time to time see the necessity to change or develop their policy. They may not be bound to suit all possible contingencies which occur to their mind. Of course one could not fail to recognise that it would be a very wrong thing and a very absurd thing if the members of the Government had one policy for one Island and a separate policy for the other. We must be candid in our expressions upon the subject — and when I say one policy I mean one expression of policy. Now, gentlemen, when we put in that compact of 1856, to be respected, we really and thoroughly meant that and mean what I say to you this evening. All of you who have acquaintance with other parts of the colony will bear mo out in saying that there ia nothing more chimerical, than that you arc going to make ordinary or colonial revenue of the land fund of the colony, can be conceived. I have already said, and I believe it, that such a bargain, if possible, would be a bad one for you. But be it bad or be it good, it would not be possible or practicable, and were there no such compact in existence at all, it would still, I undertake to say, not be desirable to mix up land revenue with ordinary revenue, but to set it apart for particular purposes, and prevent it from being mixed up with such ordinary revenue. Gontlemen, I have said to Middle Island members when they asked for security, you have two securities. When the co ony takes any charge of the Northern provinces, the time will not be very far distant when the North Island will most bitterly oppose the amalgamation of land revenue, and we will make such disposition of land revenue of the North Island that the Middle Island will in a little while say : That is the disposition which suits us, and we shall be glad to follow the example. Gentlemen,

you must not mistake this— whilst in the Middle Island there is a great desire for the land revenue to be' reserved for special purposes, there is still a very wide-spread feeling or desire to question whether such dispositions may not be made more satisfactory, and a very strong feeling is also growing up in the Middle Island that the endeavours which Superintendents make to persuade people that the land fund and its expenditure are identical with the Superintendent and Executiva have no meaning. There is no doubt of it and you must riot expect that this will not be looked upon with any very great interest, and that the time is not very far off when you will wish to follow the same example. I have said, and I say; if we would adopt the course we propose and place provincialism upon its trial, and if the colonial charge of the provinces proves satisfactory, the result to other parts of the colony cannot be doubtful. If the compact did not exist it would still be for the interest of the Island and still be the policy of the Government to set apart the land for definite purposes, and within definite areas. Gentlemen, before I come to the result, of these resolutions, I am bound to say a few words, with some amount of regret, with respect to what has occurred with one member of the Government —Mr O'Rorke. Gentlemen, do not think for one moment' that I wish to discourage those feelings of admiration which may have grown up in your minds oh account of his having pursued a course not unknown, I might say amongst public, men— that of retiring frem a Government with which he did not agree. Tinay" say' this for the interests of the morality of ■ the colony; that I should be sorry for such a' course to be considered strikingly singular; T think that when we cease to recognise the fact that men are actuated by conscientious motives that we should cease to have any confidence in the Government, and I merely now refer to the subject to say this, and state moat distinctly that the Government were unaware of the intended action of Mr O'Rorke— were altogether unaware that he intended to resign. I have had permission to state so much as I am saying. We were aware that the resolutions had not the sympathy of Mr O'Rorke, but bad no reason to suppose that he opposed them beyond what a member might do upon subjects which, after they are decided, are looked upon as the opinions of the Government. 'The' Government was wholly taken by surprise by the course Mr O'Rorke pursued. There were several days during which that gentleman could have informed the Government of his intention ; but this he did not do. These resolutions, whatever you may think of them here now, they so much represent the opinions of the members of the Assembly that only sixteen members voted against them. Of this sixteen, eleven were Superintendents or members of Provincial Executives or Speakers of Provincial Councils. There were some members who did not vote ; some who remained out, some said intentionally.somesaid unintentionally. Sixteenrecorded their votes against the motion, and twentyfive was the majority in favour of the resolutions. Now, gentlemen, those who voted against the resolutions were a very remarkable combination. They primarily consisted of Superintendents, members of Provincial Government Executives, and Speakers of Provincial Councils. They also consisted of. some who were most opposed to provincialism in all its forms, and complained only because the Government did not go far enough. There were some members — notably twe from this province — Messrs May and Williams— who voted against them after a great deal of anxious deliberation, and who desired to know what their constituents thought of it, and who looked upon themselves as delegates rather than representatives. There was one gentleman who voted against them, I think I may say, because they were proposed by me. (Laughter.) You, gentlemen, are probably not unaware of the fact, because you have had so many more opportunities of hearing Mr Gillies than you have had of me — (cheers and hisses) — and you cannot be unaware of the fact that it is only necessary for me to support any proposal to secure for it Mr Gillies' opposition. lam not stating a matter of any doubt ; it is simply notorious in the House. These resolutions were, by those who are supposed to know members, considered to be such as would receive Mr Gillies' warmest support, but the moment I proposed them it became another matter. The fact is, Mr Gillies is able to see so little in any proposal that I make, that 1 really believe if I were to come down with a resolution to the effect that Mr Gillies was a most honest and estimable member, and some one were to move an amendment to the contrary, he would vote for the amendment. (Cheers and laughter) . Gentlemen, I am afraid that popularity is very brief and evanescent. I think when you come to look at the facts and judge between the two, you will say it is impossible that both could have been right during the last five years. Either I have been wrong or Mr Gillies has. He thought the whole policy of public works and immigration was a mistaken one, and it would have been better for the colony to embroil itself in a native war. There are no two men with opinions more diametrically opposed. It may be a very gratifying thing for persons to attempt to agree with both, but if this ia possible their opinions must change very rapidly. I do not wish to make any further remarks upon thiß subject. From this joy other platforms in the city I have been abused in no measured terms, especially by Mr Gillies, but I do not want to make anything like an attack upon him. I am not here to invite discussion, but to make explanations as your member and as Premier of the colony. I am not aware whether Mr Gillies is in this room or not. [A Voice : "He is here."] Whether he is or not, I have said nothing, I believe, which may be looked upon in anything like the nature of retaliation for a tenth | part of what Mr Gillies has said in my absence. I wish to state nothing that would be at all derogatory to him. I may state that ho is invariably unable to see anything of which he can approve in anything I undertake. When these resolutions were carried in the way I have referred to, very great excitement prevailed, and a very great exertion was made with a view to seeing if something could not be done to reverse the decision j and that telegraph which is so useful to spread information and facts which are not facts, was put into use, and it was telegraphed that there had been a caucus held of members of the Opposition, about twenty-eight being present. There was sufficient truth in this statement to save it from being an absolute untruth. There was a caucus held, and there were twenty-eight present, but not twenty-eight members. There were only eighteen members, and it looked bo small a number that ten men were brought out ofithe streets, and then it waa telegraphed. Well, gentlemen, everything that ingenuity and the strongest possible prejudice could do was brought to bear in the matter j and what has

been the result ? Ido not know if the gentle men I am addressing to-night are a majority one way or the other, but I know that the coloay as a whole, by a large majority, has espousal the policy and the results arrived at by the majority ot the Assembly. No amount of hissing or howling wUI alter that fact, which is a fact— au immense, an enormous majority in favour of it. Now, gentlemen, you were kind enoagh to say here, " Yes, it is quite right to abolish the provinces in the North Island, but you musfc abolish all provinces at once. (Cheers.) Well; gentlemen, I shall be sorry to think— (Continued uproar.)

The Chairman: It is really impossible for any speaker to address you. There are a few noisy people at the other end of the iootx^-— I don't believe they are electors of City East— and I appeal to the gentlemen present to keep them in order.

Mr Yogel continued: Now, gentlomen, I take it from the response you made just now to what I stated that the vast majority of those present are entirely opposed to Provincial institutions altogether — (hear, hear), and that there are a few hangera-pn to the outskirts of provincialism who hold an opposite opinion, and they very properly have subsided at the other end of the room. Now, I have addressed public meetings before, arid I may say this, that it is quite within my knowledge that a mere handful of men may make a very large noise. What I understand you to sayis this, that you object to the abolition of the provinces in this island because wo do not propose to abolish them in both islands. ..WiU ; you allow me to ask this, why have you come to . that conclusion ? ft it is mere sentiment, well, then I could feel the greatest sympathy with it j and I could tell you that though, sentiment nodouot enj;e.rß largely into questions of Government,, and that it is a most desirable part, yet it cannot be the "be all and end all." When, you com© to test it by any practical result, will you tell me this, why, if it is possible to abolish Provincialism in, the Island, if it would be next to impossible to make this movement all over ; jfche colony, on what ground should you refuse to accept the good at our hand? (Laughterj) , 1 suppose that it. is your idea that it woulcl Se humiliating for one Island to accept it and not other j and therefore you refuse unless given to both Islands together, tdo not know that you hare so. much reason on your side.. Our primary reason is to endeavour to give you institutions, whioh are working most satisfactorily in some of the provinces of the other Island. If you go to Otago and Canterbury you cannot fail to admire the manner in which their institutions are conducted. Take, for example, the educational question and with it the whole form of Government. Now, gentlemen, the great object of abolishing the provinces is to bring you up to the same standard. I ask you this— and have said this in the House why should the children of Auckland be less educated than those of Otago ? You are all colonists of New Zealand, and there are certain institutions which you have a right to as such. ; and it is because we want to give you like institutions to those of Otago and Canterbury that we propose to make the change. Putting on one side the question of practicability, I tell you that all sentiment is not to be compared to this fact— that year after year you are allowing your population to grow up less educated than in any other part of the colony. This difference is remarkable with regard to other institutions. Take the Asylnm for instance : it is a disgrace. And there are other institutions of which it must distinctly be said that the colony has a right to carry on in a satisfactory manner. It is a duty the colony owes to colonists to ace that "they shall be properly conducted. When these provinces are dissolved you are to secure all thiß. It will then become the duty of the colony to see that the ordinary services of education, charitable purposes, hospitals, gaols, and police are properly carried out. You will then at any rate have something more than at present. Gentlemen, you have public works constructed from one end of the province to another, and these will be increased. You will have communication from Auckland to Wellington. [A Voice : " When ?"] You will have much of this Island, which is now a sealed book, thrown open ; you will have that in the natural course of things. But are these things to go on, and these institutions to be carried on in the same manner as they have been carried on ? Are we to have, year after year, that harrassing sore, whether there is to be education and special taxation, or if failing to have one to be obliged to dp without the other ? Gentlemen, I Bay this, when we bring up this Island's institutions to equal those in other parts of the colony, I am not at all sure but that the other parts of the colony in their turn would say that they prefer what we have in this Island. In fact, such will be the case. The advantages are these — you do away with provincial institutions, which are now unreasonable and unmeaning. Whenever you approach the boundaries of the provinces in the interior of the Island you find settlements shut out by reason of the fear of one province spending its money for the benefit of the other. The moment you come to the question of settling this Island, the incongruity of provincial boundaries inevitably presents itself. Now yod will do away with that, and substitute for it a thorough form of local Government, which will not be in name only, but in reality a power dispersed throughout the Island, of people governing their own affairs. Gentlemen, you who live in the towns might not think so much of that, but it is very important to country settlers. And let me tell you this, that the success of Auckland as a city will depend upon the success of its out-settle-ments. The success of Dunedin has done so ; and the out-diatricta will become prosperous in accordance with the extent to which they have secured to them a reality and not a sham in local government. Gentlemen, I have said before that this question of the disposition of the land revenue was really the question, and not the compact of 1856, and how it shall be expended ; and if we hit upon a satisfactory mode of disposing of the land revenue, we will find means by which the North Island will also arrive at similar results. I am not here to-night to enter into details which are not absolutely fixed. What I say must be looked upon merely as an indication in the direction which we wish to go. We look upon it that the land fund should bo set apart for purposes such as these :— For payment of interest and sinking fund upon provincial loans ; for educational and oharitable purposes j that a part of the land fund should be applied in subsidizing the road districts throughout the province, and substantially subsidizing them, and their part for district and colonial works ; district works suitable for groups of road boards. It is very difficult to draw the line between what ia district and what ia colonial. A harbour may be only useful to a district or colonially { ao^

with b-ancli railways. It may pass through one district, and yet may be as suitable for colonial work as a main line. There can beno doubt that the capitation money will go a long way towards supporting those insti- ulions which I have contended you have a right to inßisl. should be put upon an excellent footing. As for the licence fees, I say no more than this— that I shall be very much disappointed if the Government are not able to most distinctly make local the licensing revenue, and place at the disposition of the town and districts the expenditure of tho same. I will say this, also, with respect to the goldu'elds revenue — we consider that. the revenue raised within goldfields should be expended therein for their benefit. Gentlemen, wo are bent upon maturing this measure in a satisfactory manner, and recognise that it will be only satisfactory to replace the pro-' vincial with the local syßtem. of govern^ ment; and with that view we have arranged that the bill shall be prepared by one of the ablest barristers of the country — a gentleman of colonial reputation — and we have stipulated that before the bill shall be prepared, this gentteman shall visit every road, district, and town in the island, and shall personally confer with the chairmen of the Boards, and make himßelf acquainted with the necessities of the districts by that or whatever other means to ascertain their requirements. 1 take leave to think that we Bhall have collected a very large fund of knowledge upon the subject before the House meets next year. Gentlemen, I have detained you very long upon this subject, and will endeavour to pass away from it. I must recollect that 1 am not placed in a position which would enable me to come before you simply as an Auckland representative. I cannot divest myself of obligations to the whole colony, and of my position as head of the Government of New Zealand, and therefore you must not be surprised if I do not talk to you in those popular strains observed by other members. I do"not profess to be actuated by only Auckland' .proclivities. It is very necessary to the position I hold that I Bhould have regard for all parts of the colony, and I cannot be actuated only by the wants of one part of it. Some constituencies do value— -I do not know whether they are less material or more sentimental — but some constituencies do value to be represented by those who are at the head of the Government, and whose interests are bound up with that of the colony. That is a matter upon which you are best able to form your own opinion ; but I Bay most positively, that consistent with my many duties to the rest of the colony, that I have not neglected AucLland, and it has been a matter of very anxious thought to me that this 'province, where there is not that amount of prosperity which has prevailed elsewhere — ; I have no dearer political wish at heart — nothing I could more wish — than to be able to place Auckland in the same prosperous condition as that of some of the other pro vinces. If anything would • reconcile me to bear longer the hard work — and it is very wearying work — of continuing as a member of the Government and head of the Government, it 18 the hope that, before my work iB doae, I may be able to point to all parts of the colony and say, "There is evidence of that work in the general prosperity prevailing throughout the colony." I say it would be impossible to Berve this province if you act upon the dog-in-the-manger principle — if you will not take that which is required of you because it iB not required in the other parts of the colony. If you will not recognise the advantage, because it iB not possible to give that to other parts of the colony at present, you make it simply impossible to serve you. Gentlemen, I will refer to a few other matters, if you will allow me ; and, gentlemen, there is no one public matter to which I attach greater importance in the future than the project which has been more or less familiar .to you all, and which has been before Parliament for the first time this year, that of securing to New Zealand the trade and commerce of the South Sea Islands. I do hope that you will look upon this matter as one not of a petty nature, and that you will read the exceedingly interesting papers which have been laid before parliament upon the subject. lam convinced if the project is carried out, and the ! rade of the Pacific brought to this colony, ;;nd New Zealand made its centre, the good results will be felt in all its parts. It will raise New Zealand just aa much as the Immigration and Public Works policy will. I believe that where you have one ship building hero now. you would then have ten ehipß, and where your trade is £1 it would be £10. I believe thoße islands are at our very feet, asking us to take them under our charge and develop their trade ; and we should be able to do it. The Government haß abo determined to reconstruct the Californian . Mail Service, ■which it believes it. to be of great value to the colony, and that Auckland and the rest of the colony will be very much benefited thereby ; ana I think that you will agree with me that in placing these negotiations in the hands of one bo able as our chairman, the Government are endeavouring to do the best they can with this matter. (Cheers.) Gentlemen, I have not had an opportunity of saying why I am visiting England for a few months. I should like this opportunity. There are three purposes which call me away. I shall be absent for bix or seven months, and return before next session. These objects are briefly — first, the arrangement for the construction of the telegraph cable to connect New Zealand with Australia and the rest of the world. This is a matter which urgently calls for attention. There has been a delay on account of the New South Wales Governmeet not having come to a hurried conclusion ; but now the ground is clear, and I believe the work will be done. There is another question — that of immigration. You will do me the justice to recollect that during the past year there has been a great improvement in the management of the Immigration Department. When you come to consider the enormous number of immigrants landed, you cannot but be struck with the fact . that it is very remarkable that tbeße immigrants are so rapidly absorbed into the ordinary population, and able to aid the producing power of the colony. We have done that by the establishment from one end of the colony to another, of depdts. I think I may cay that the conduct of immigration in this colony is now on a footing which we may consider satisfactory, so little complaint is there about it. But there are circumstances con- ' nected with its management at home which ' make it necessary for a Minister to confer with the Agent-General in order to avoid irritating correspondence and misunderstandings on the subject. I >nay say that the Government are anxious and resolved to place the immigration department at home upon a satisfactory footing. The third object is one of financial arrangements, about which it would be inconvenient to correspond, and more coavenient- to make personally. I

bare made this explanation, which may not be very interesting to you, but which I consider necessary. lam obliged to you for the hearing which jou have given me. I have not appeared here as a suitor for yoir support. Upon a future election it naay be you will be able to select some one of whom you may more entirely approve, but on the other hand it is possible I may, find a constituency more disposed to defend Me in my absence, and less di-posed to take uaß> in attacks upon me. I am not at all sunHuat it would be in accordance with the YJB"f electors, or desirable that I shouUflßmd again for the city of Auckland. been asked to stand for all thechief^jwwij^ "in the colony— Nelson, Wellington^p&rifltchurch, and Dunedin. I have cqmtfto^o'conplusions upon the subject, and certainly npt here with a view to canvassing for a future election. I am here to make t^you such an explanation as I think it is right for a member to make to his constituents. I am not here, however, to enter into discussion with popular speakers, or to answer embarrassing questions, or to make a hustings speech, but if there are any particular questions upon which you wish me to give any information, I shall be happy to answer them. X wish you to understand that . whatever may be the opinion of some gentlemen in this room, it is at any rate a matter of great satisfaction to me to know this, that in, and I may say out of, New Zealand there is a general conviction that, instead of the depressed colony of 1868, we have now in New Zealand a colony which is fast becoming the chief colony of the Australasian group. There is a reasonable probability even in our lifetime, the lifetime of our generation, that New Zealand will be the leading colony of the Australasian group. It is a matter of great gratification to me to know, that there are Borne at any rate who are kind and generous enough to say that I am associated with that progress. It is matter of very great regret to me that I have to talk to you of the prosperity of a distant time, rather than a prosperity which is quite at your door. I do not say that you are as prosperous in Auckland as I could wish to Bee you ; and I have said already it is the moat anxious wish I have at heart to place Auckland in a position of equal prosperity with the other provinces of the colony ; but I think you must recognise this, that you have difficulties in your way which, no- matter what has been done, must have made themselves felt, that you have had to Buffer a recovery, but that you have bright days in store. I am convinced that when the 'railway runs from Auckland ; when the railway runs past the Waikato and on to Wellington, and when perhaps, as I hope may be the case, it will connect you with the splendid lands of Taranaki; when you have these roads more completely made, the Calif ornian service really working, the trade of the South Sea Islands pouring into Auckland and the other ports of the colony — I cannot help thinking you will find Auckland a city in which it would be impossible to take too much pride or too much interest. Auckland has a very great future before it, and I cay thiß when I have felt that my work was comparatively over, and that others should succeed me,. and that I had a right to rest. Yet that anxious desire to see Auckland what it ought to be, has kept me to the work, and will, I hope, keep me until the I work is attained. Gentlemen, on the other hand, Ido not disguise this. Those who opposed the Government during the past five years — those who hate the whole policy of the Government — who have gone entirely opposed to it ; who have gone in for disturbance with the natives; who have opposed the public works and immigration policy in every way,' if they thought that they saw any possibility .of appealing to sentimenta and prejudices— if they thought that there was a probability of obtaining from you a brief or a lengthened popularity s—but5 — but do not forget this : you are asked to fall back into the very hands that interposed the greatest possible difficulty to the carrying out of a policy which you cannot for one moment deny has been a very great success. That success has been recognised throughout the colony, and even if it has not come home to your doors as completely as it might have done, you cannot fail to recognise its success, and I think you would be wise in recollecting, whether or not you agree with the Government, it might not bo preferable for you not to throw yourselves in hands so thoroughly alien to what you believe as those who are anxious to take your charge. Gentlemen, at any rate lam convinced— the Government are convinced — we are doing the very best that we can for the colony, for the North Island, for this province of Auckland ; and strong in that conviction, I confidently appeal to those I represent for their continued support. (Loud and continued cheers.) The Chairman said that Mr Vogel's time was very short, and he would have to leave Auckland in a few hours j but Mr Yogel would answer any question that might be put to him by any elector of the City East. There was no response from the meeting. Tho Chairman : As there is no elector deBirous of asking any question, I declare the meeting at an end. (Mr Russell vacated the chair.) Mr Rees ascended the platform amidst loud cheers. The Chairman : Mr Ree3 is not an elector of the City East. Mr Rees : I am an elector of the City East. The Chairman : We may be kept here till 12 o'clock if we should have to listen to speeches. We are bound to leave Auckland within a couple of hours. It is impossible that we can go on. Mr Yogel : Let me say this. I asked my constituents to meet me here. I engaged this room for the purpose. You were good enough to choose a chairman to preside over the meeting. Allow me to say I cannot come here to bandy words with popular orators. I have made to you the explanation which I felfe at liberty to mak^ I can assure you I have not time to spare to listen to the gentleman's eloquence. lam aware that he is a constituent of mine. . I must therefore wish you good evening. (Cheers, groans, hisses, and confusion.) v Mr Rees : Iteme here as one of Mr Vogel's constituents, fiftgy^me has been on the roll for two years duriilg»the period that Mr Yogel has represented City East. Therefore, I maintain I have every right, .not only as a constituent of the City East, but as a colonist to test the feeling of this meeting — this enormous meeting — in reference to the statement made by Mr Yogel as representing the City East, (Cheers, hisses, and confusion.) Mr Russell and Mr Yogel, followed by most of the gentlemen on the platform, left the meeting. Some, however, remained. One of the large gas chandeliers was, at this point, entinguished. This created great uproar. Mr Rees asked the meeting to hear him, notwithstanding that the chair had been

vacated. He characterised the conduct of Mr Yogel as an insult to the electors of the City East. He felt grieved that a gentleman of such, influence as Mr Russell could be found to second him in so treating the electors. That was not conduct that an English Minister would dare to odopt towar.is his constituents. He asked the meeting to cay by their voices that Mr Yogel was not worthy the confidence of the electors of the City East. This appeal was followed by cheers. The meeting was, however, at this stage wholly disorganised, and there was a general movement towards the doors. In this way the assemblage dispersed.