Provincial Council.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 169, 26 November 1868, Page 3

Provincial Council.

WtoNxsDAT, November 25. The SpeAker took the chair at 5 o'clock. The following members were present : — Messrs Jollie, Lee, W. Williams, Rhodes, Fyfe, Potta, Mo«re, Buchanan, Birch, Hall, Hornbrook. Kennaway, Peacock, Maskell, Montgomery, J. S. Williams, Ormsby, Delamain, Kuight, Peter, Waekerle, Wilson, Brown, A. Duncan, Hawkeß, Gray, Hillyard, Hargreaves, T. S. Duncan. auditor's report. The Speaker presented the Provincial Auditor's report, which was read. ROADS ORDINANCES. Mr Masiell asked if it is the intention of the Government to bring in a bill to amend the Roads Ordinances 1864, 1865, and contingent on their answer to move that the Provincial Solicitor be requested to bring in •uch a bill. He placed the question on the paper, because the members of the Road Board in which he held a seat were perpetually finding that clauses in the Ordinances were in many cases vague and indefinite, and in some cases altogether unworkable. Mr Maskell said that in this case he would move " That the Provincial Solicitor be instructed to bring in the Bill." Mr Peacock seconded the motion. The Hon. G. L. Lee suggested that the best course to pursue would be for the hon. member to withdraw his motion, and give notice for the appointment of a. select committee to consider what amendments were required in the Act. The Government could then consider whether they had the power to make such amendments as the select committee might suggest. Mr Bbottx supported the rnotios. After some discussion, Mr Maskell obtained leave to withdraw his motion, intimating that on the following day he would move for the appointment of a select committee, in accordance with Mr Lee's suggestion. EDUCATION. The Hon. John Halt, mored— " 1. Eor an estimate of the actual expenditure by the Provincial Government for purposes of Education during the last financial year, in each Road District and Municipality within the Province. 2. Estimate of the amount which would bo raised in each Road District or Municipality within the Province by a rate of four-pence in the pound on the assei»ed value of the property therein. Mr Jollib said that the estimates asked for would not be of any use to the hon. member, as the bill of last session woul>i probably be repealed during the present session. Mr Hall said that the estimates he asked for would be found to be most useful, as affording hon. members an opportunity of deciding as to whether the Act Bhould be repealed. The motion was put and agreed to. . V^ /' RAILWAY FREE PABSES. '' The following aotice of motion lapsed in /the absence of Mr Johnstone: — That the / Captains of the Panama, New Zealand, and Australian. Royal Mail Company, and the New Zealand Steam Navigation Company's steamboats be granted free passej v on the Lyttelton arid Chriatchurch Railway^ Mr W. TfiiißON said that on the-^revious evening he had consented to the request of Mr Jollie to postpone his question with reference to free passes on the railway until Mr Johnstone's question had been disposed of. He understood since coming into the Chamber that the hon. member for Riccarton's question had lapsed. He (Mr Wilson) considered he had now the right to ask. what reply the Government would give with regard to allowing free passes to captains of aU vessels of not less than 200 tons burtheD, conditional on their discharging their cargoes at the Railway Wharf. If the Government were not prepared to answer the question iust now, he had no desire to embarrass them by pressing it. , Mr Jollib suggested that the question might be repeated next evening. ■ Mr .Wilson consented to postpone the question until next day. ; white's bridge . j Mr Birch moved " that a copy of tie laat return of traffic over the Waimakariri (White's) bridge, held by the Provinci il Government be laid on the Council table.' His . desire in moving for this return was tc bring before the attention of hon. membe a the amount of revenue that" was demabli from ■this bridge. According to the fortn ghtly return lastly obtained, the revenue ami unted to £85 10s Id ; that was equal to £6 Es IJI per fliem, and made a total of £2229 4s 3Jd a-year. The traffic had perhaps increased since the return was furnished, because the

restrictions placed upon cattle had been since removed. He asked for this return* in order that he might be able to allude to it further when he brought, forward the next motion standing im his name on the subject; Mr Jollib laid the return on the tableMr Birch then moved "that a copy of the contract or lease made by the Provincial Government in accordance with clause 3 of the Waimakariri Bridge Ordinance, 1863, he laid on the table." The motion for laying a copy of the lea-' 1 on the table was agreed to, and the documeijc was read on the motion of Mr Birch. CHATKHAN OF COMMITTEES. j Mr Jolme moved " That the Council proceed to the appointment of a chairman of committees. The motion was agreed to. Mr Jollib moved the appointment of Mr J. S. Williams. Mr Wilson said that while congratulating the Council on the election of Mr Williams, he must at the same time express his regret at the choice, as Mr Williams would on many occasions be prevented by his office from giving to the Council the benefit of his opinions on subjects as to which they might be found to be most useful. The motion was agreed to. LEAVE OP ABSENCE. Mr Hatvkes moved for leave of absence for Mr Garrick until after the 11th day of December. Mr Garrick was at present in Sydney, and was not likely to return until after this date. The motion was agreed to. ORPHAN ASYLUM. Mr Hatvkes moved — " That a select committee be appointed to consider the best means for providing more ample accommodation for the number of orphans and destitute children who are now dependent on public charity, such committee to consist of Messrs Jollie, Rhodes, Tancred, Hillyard, Peacock, A. Duncan, and the mover, with power to call for persons and papers ; to report on December 3rd. The motion was agreed to. NEW BILLS. On the motion of Mr W. Williams, leave was given to bring in The Diversion of Roads Special Bill, 1868, and the Reserve No. 254 Bill, 1868. The bills were read a first time and ordered to be printed, and the second reading was made an order of the day for Thursday. ADJOURNED DEBATE. The debate was resumed on the motion brought forward by Mr J. S. Williams : — " That this Council respectfully requests his Honor to take such steps as he may deem expedient for the purpose of procuring the disallowance by her Majesty, of an Act of the General Assembly, intituled the Public Debts Sinking Fund Act, 1868. Mr Wtnk Williams _aid that when the hon. member for Heathcote put hia notice on the paper, he did not understand what the purport of it was, and after hearing the hon. member for Rakaia in reply, he felt compelled to move the adjournment of the debate. The hon. member for Heathcote commenced by saying that it was an unusual and an inconvenient course for the Provincial Council to interfere to such an extreme with the legislation of the General Assembly, and he quite agreed with the hon. member that it was so. This being the case, the Government would be placed in an awkward position with respect to the General Government of the colony if the resolution were agreed to. With regard to what fell from his hon. friend Mr J. S. Williams as to the Act in question, he quite agreed with him ; and the hon. member for Rakain, he thought, must have been overwhelmed with business when he allowed such defect* as were pointed out in the Act to escape his attention, it appeared to him (Mr Williams) that the difficulties pointed out by the hon. member for Heathcote existed, and rendered the whole administration under the Act illegal. He had no hesitation in saying that the General Government could not carry out the Act as it at present stood. He thought Mr Williams was quite right in the opinion he expressed as to the source to which the sinking fund should revert ; but at same time v he considered that the resolution would lead to no good result. It seemed to him that the law must be taken as it stood, and he firmly believed that as soon as the trustees in England were informed that under this Act they were required to hand over the trust f uudß to certain commissioners, they would at once place the province in this difficulty— they would pay the money overto theßeceiver in the Court of Chancery, and they all knew that if money got once there, a very long time would elapse before it could be got out. There was no protision made in the Act for repaying the provinces, and the result would be that the General Government would get the money twice over. If the trustees refused to pay the money over to the commissioners, it appeared to him that the General Government would etop it out of the revenue, and they had made no provision for old provinces getting the money back. He did not mean to say that the Act had been purposely framed in this way ; but clause 10 shewed that the person instructed to draft the bill was quite aware of the difficulty that would arise in the event of the trustees refusing to hand the money over, and therefore power was given to stop the money out jof the revenues coming to the provinces. The effect of this was to bring a very undue pressure on the trustees through the Provincial Governments. In conclusion, he would urge upon the hon. member the propriety of withdrawing his -motion, for two reasons — Ist, because if it were passed, it would be placing the Provincial Government in a ■ yen awkward position in relation to' the General Government ; and 2nd, '.because the motion could' be of no advantage whatever, tb this province, because the effect of it would b< , that if they did not succeed in obtaining the disallowance of the Act, the trustees would

be more likely to pay the money into the Court of Chancery than before, and the General Government would lay the blame upon the action taken by the Provincial Government. He hoped the hon. member would see fit to withdraw the motion which he had brought forward. ' Mr J. S. Wilmams said he would not detain the House at any length on this occasion. The hon. member for Rakaia had stated on the previoHs night that there was a considerable amount of discussion upon the Act in question, but the information which he derived from private sources was to the effect that the measure was brought in at a very late period of the setsion, when most of the Canterbury and Otago members had left for their homes ; and Hansard did not contain much discussion on the subject. He adhered to the opinions he had expressed on the previous night with reference to the provincial credit, as regarded the holders of outstanding debentures, notwithstanding what had been 1 said by the hon. member for Rakaia. The' Ordinances on which the loans were created formed the existing contract between themselves and their creditors, and they had never looked beyond these Ordinances. He thought if the colony had chosen to pay off a certain proportion of the provincial loans, that the rights of the holders of the remaining portion ought not in the slightest degree be interfered with. The sinking fund was held by the trustees for their benefit, and any interference with it would be a wrong an the debenture holders. He should be extremely sorry to embarrass the Government, and he would not, therefore, for the reasons stated by the Provincial Solicitor, press his motion. Leave was given to withdraw the motion accordingly. Notices of motion were then given, and the Council adjourned until 5 p.m. next day.