TIMARU PRESBYTERY.

Timaru Herald, Volume LXXX, Issue 12393, 8 June 1904, Page 4

TIMARU PRESBYTERY.

The qidinary meeting of the Timaru PwAfeytwy wiis hekt in Trinity Hall yesterday. Present—Rev. T. Stinson (Moderotor), Rev*. R. Jackson, A, S.'Morrison, Chappie, Mncdonald, G. Barclay, fl. Dickie, ft. J. Fletcher, A. B. Xodd (clerk), and Dr, Black/ministers; and Messrs 8. McQuKy.-A. Hart, G. Black, J. Lauren-, eonM- "E.-Arohibald, T..Biown, R. Donn, ifo Paterson,-and J. Wilson, elders. A lew /Oj&berq, i not membeis of Presbytery, werel<also> present. '« Apologies for absence wete received from tho>RJ>v- J. White, and from Mr Wallace. 1 ftßenv Mr Todd moved that the *Rev: Dr Black be appointed Moderator for 1 the en* suing yeaT. D±-Black moved as an amendment that tEe Rev. R. Jackbon take thepoaition. .' The amendment being withdrawn after .discussion, Dr Black took the chair amid applause. . The Presbytery expressed its deep sympathy ,witbf.Mr White, on account of the causes •which necessitated his übsence_ .The, Rev. <vH. J. Fletcher was associated pro tern, with the Presbytery. Dr Blaok gave notice to move at next inteitiaig«"""Th«t' r the selection" of Subjects and egeakerS",io£ the .visitation of congregations *b"e made diieotly by the Freshy; tery, and'"at its tegular monthly meeting." ' " ' ' Rev. Messrs Todd, Morrison, «nd Stiucommitted upon foieign missions', submitted a report and'recommendations. They recommended the iornution of a branch of the Presbyterian Women's Missionary Union in each charge; an exchange of pulpits' before Assembly, in place of a deputation of members of Presbytery; "the taking of a collection this year in. aid of the. Contom Village Mission Building Fund; the formation when pi«ctfcoble oji a Foreign Missions Association for the collection of funds r the imitation of the methods of outside agencies m collecting Buch funds; 'the urging of the use of < the "prayer-cycle" prepared tor the missions.;' and disapproved of the Conference on Foreign Missions, as it benefits only the "towns visited, and the meetings are, but small. , t -The -Presbytery agreed with all ,ttie move recommendations. Some discussion ,taok place *s"t© whether a church had the right to ask its members sot to contribute to the support of outside 'missions when iU" own were in need of funds"; it was generally agreed that theie is no such right, ball that members of the church may ~ bwTasked to consider the .missions of the before others. - ser,. A. g. Morrison explained the position in connection with the proposed site «t Morren! There is necessity for i inch a site' there; but after tedious nego- ' tiations it-was fount! that an acre of land the sito will cost at least £l7O. Stier church", is unable tcj, pay 50- much, ind altwnatively pioposed'to ouy half an . Otherwise they'might take the> acre on a lease in perpetuity. He asked if the Presbytery would give, them a de--ojsjon whether, it were, better to buy the -$aK acre, or lease the whole acre. , ■" v Kev.-Mr" Dickie, the pastor, said there were strong objections among the people there to having anything to do with \.oßey. Mr Barclay suggested that the matte* be left in the hands of Mr Dickie and bin committee, with Mr Morrison as an a*6>rjaerif 'necessary, to come to the arrangement that best suited them; and this- being, put as a motion was carried. Rev." Mr .Morrison again reminded members of the fast approaching Sabbath school examinations, and asked lor their earnest suppoit and assistance. "Already be hadreceived) several entries for the examinations. The question of church union then came up4or discussion. Several members were strongly in favour of deferring this,-the most important matter before the Presbytery, tul Mr White could be present, as Ue„«iiad»giveh, notice, of, an amending, uio; iiop, and should be allowed to state his case. Alter considerable discussion, it was-decided'to continue the business, and that, the Rev. G< Barcjay, who was well Vrijpared, f should' take charge of Mr White's "motion. ' -Rev. 'Mr Todd then moved, in accord •race-with notice given at last meeting-" "That'this Presbytery, while cherishing lri«ndly v fjsehngs towards all other evangelical 'churches, does not consider it opportutie dr-Advisable that'the Assembly should •njfer'intjs.negotiations with the Methodist onavdongregational Churches with a view -to union, but heartily approves of every means by, which co-operation may be en,jSonragedr and the ,evils of' overlapping and undue 1 rivalry be prevented 1 ; ana ncdmmends to the Assembly that the. JomimtieoX be"" thanked Jor their services and He.was/ho'said-, djssply sensible of the tesionsibility 'he had taken upon himself.: The responsibility, .however, of nwtHraising the question m the riroved ajrwpple of discord. His was, too, the unpopular position torday; it w.is apt to~bo -misunderstood, and so to. upset the iteelings of the church He had, however, studied, the matter fiom every aspect, •fid rwhfle some' of the arguments he had teen and'heard had impressed him, none bad' coWinoed him. Sentiment was in favoW .ot union, and he recognised that sentiment-' count* for orach. First, he w«takL-point'out that this was not the abstract, question of union; the remit 1 placed a definite proposal before them. If it had bcen"the abstract question, they would "all, have been in favour of it;but he | thought the spiritual unity of the churches did not .necessarily involve outward uniformity, -Then, he would question whether union would" be beneficial. x The imagination bad been appealed to by picture vl one great church doing- very great work all over toe world. Sorely everyone had,* love for his individual' church, »n which j he had been cradled, and a pride in its history and noble achievements. Kvery church had its good qualities, and wtis doing its good work; and be maintained that they could do it best apart. Great sacrifices, too, wSnld. be asked of all churches involved irvvihe union;, and he asked if the advantage* of the fusion would; outweigh "those _ sacrifices. It appeared to him that the" movement was not in the best interests of the community, and of the church. Then, on the question of doctrine, there were differences that would be vary hard to reconcile ;n the statement of one doctrine acceptable rtov all < would be most difficult. Eaeb church would object to parts dear to them being left out because the others objected to < them. By the time all the parts that one or the other disagreed upon, totf inttas.ee in the weed, there would be but an unrecognisable and very watery remainder. ' The, church was, besides, young an 3 unable to bear the great strain that would be imposed upon it. He then submitted that; there was no spontaneity in the movement. Jp conversation with members of this church, in various localities, Iwrfonnd who desired union : at all; they actually dreaded the union; and he badi good authority for saying that the other cburohe' did not desire it either. The, question, was b'ing forced upon them, end"their- vc*y unprcparedness was the best reason why thex sbonld go on further now. - /What Voting had already been taken disclosed a' great diversity of opinion. Many persons had said/that the church i*..nawJiouiKLiit honour to go on, that it had gone too far to back out. He asked ' whether, because they bad gone too far, and found tbey bad made a mistake, they rhould not immediately rectify their error. 'Besides, the Presbyterian Church had not so long been united in, itself that it should already seek union with others. Let it now unify itself, its methods, and- it» finances.'** He believed tlw.t co-operation and mutual forbearance on the parts of the chorobe* were needed; .ltd could be fostered more than they /ire.

-The Bev. JrfTi" MoßonnJtl seconded the mqtlon (Mid *jnpba*}.<(<irl Mr Todd '» remark*. Ini. r«/erenco )fi' the charge njrainst "the' church of having commenced the mover m«it,> he held thnf, if (lie church meant the > bodyof Presbyterians, they had not done so..'lt was instituted by a few self-elected leadria, and if there vo* any, blame or shame, those, who; Ud vtiilUfied themselves infotft Mat '.'it. He then proceeded at to show . thnt the union wasnattier de*lred nor desirable. He pointed 'ojiijth*- disastrous cormoiucnces of .unions wßjph" had been entered into or attempted • W;;- old estab'Wic.'l ' churches of the Old Worid/vwbei) those unions had;bten carried \■■■prt;.l*^l^i«'lelw|ry'■W^h6nt^ftfe^ei;ttf"'tfie■ , peoples .wishes. In' ibis, ctii/e iileo ; many , ntfwstex* fladvoted for union j bnt thfi'r ' oninJonViWs; »6t the opinion of the body. y. Pl; t Vmbyie,i\am of New Zeajand;,, He ; jcoblo. say with tfijt fa

the .colony had he heard a single word coming from Presbyterians in favour of union. Certainly l )* good visible union of churches-would be a very nice thing j-but too high a price would have to be paid for it. He made much of the fact that the present different forms of religious effort appeal to diffeient dispositions in men. The Roman Catholic was outwardly the most completely unified church; but* inwardly it had its divisions which enabledftit to apply equally to the different clashes of men belonging to it. So Presbyterianism suited some men, Methodism others. The union would mean that the creed of the whole wodld be as ," thin as- moonshine and water"; that eaVh faction would be out off from it* history and its brethren, and forced" to keep company with others to whom they are in may respects aliens. The advantages of union were very problcmatfeal. At last meeting Mr Todd was asked to add to Ids motion the clause leferring to the dumiss.il of and thanks to the committee. What Mr McDonald would like to Bee was that-those things be done at once, and the question thus "be got rid of conclusively. '• Rev. G. Barclay moved as an. amendment: "That the Presbytery recommend that .the Assembly continue the'negotiations with the Methodist and Congregational Churches,"with »'view to union upon a basis of doctrine and polity, to be considered, andia due time tent down to Preslike to say-w.ha't-he undersfood'.by;'.'union." The '■■ assimilation, by l body--of all. the I others might Jsa so; called; : but that would [ b6,iheiisam'eP,ns the union of the crew of ■ having 'cajmibaUsed s tlj,e" expense. »pf ituiion intende'r, ires' suchthat it : would' hive' these elements :\in, doctrine" it, .would; embrace the fundamental - principles of the gospel, as accepted by all";."in polity, -it would sacrifice. no apostolia -principle: of churcii government or organisation j in d.wcipUne lfc-.wqGlbF adhere" to all that'is expedient. for its own integrity and, pfoper ; v delimita,tion as an ecolesiasticfc .unit ;"' it'.Tvrould adopt, a,,'-uamei whicli,-'without implying an undue pre-eminence on the .'part .of any one church, would fairly cdyer the, aims; of the union-—thisilatter after all ati-uhimportant matter, for what's in a name! The Presbyterian Church had been'the first to pro-' mulgate:.the„que£tion of union; the suggestion was''courteously and'amicably entertained:, by the other churches, and without indication >■■ on-.--the--part of those bodies of reluctance to discuss the matter,' he would not like the PrMbyterian"; Church■■'»''to-- be the first; Jto withdraw, - saying that •in a moment vof .thoughtlessness they had commenced the agitation, .ahd-inow. mistake. He could not imagine anyone questioning the expediency of the union; particularly from the aspect of economy, both _uv finance and in labour. 1 In the latter respect,- where many are now required; «on'e. minister- would serve) and the others) could go furtherofield.. In missionary fields, ■the effect' would be very pronounced, and mudhi overlapping \vould be-entwely prevented.- ; The greater unity of : th'e*church'would'teisd to greater enterprise, and thus, it was to-be hoped, to greater, success. "He" was not persuaded of the-imprhctioaMity of union. Difficulties would *-arise; aud he would be a bold man: who. would attempt to sketch a scheme""upDn" which all might" agree. * The essential thing was . the. intrinsic saving power ! of "the gospel; the machinery was a variable v aecess6ry.. Under all the "isms" ■ souls may be saved, and nowadays it was recognised that it was not the form of the religion that constituted its value. As far, ■ however, .as. he could, see, the, tendency.; among' 'the three w chuiiches Veemed to be towards Presbyterianism-m the form of.services; .He concluded by saying that he was.foralloiring. the'movement to continue. :#o'serious.'tarn "couM .result,' and in tie end there might issue incalculable gob'd.^:"; ? v : Vr'- ;■ '->\"- v L ; .." !:.;''," •..':■" '•' Brown briefly:^^seconded"the amendment ;'. : ' . ;..,.!'..'.■ Rev. -'Mr" Chappell spoke in support'of the .original motion, stating 1 that though i he came open ,to conviction, none of 'the*'- arguments" used'-iiaj upholding the amendment had ia the j 1 slig^test'''^e.;riUwa.,a!|mh''p6intV'thftt ; among "those'agitating.-forunion there are two piety,:..:'tine isi'.aipure- honest type. that, seeks; in. ii .atraightforward man- j ner the,.' good of church'. The other is j not so sincere.', 'How. was it that the agitation for union is accompanied : by an agitation fora fresh creed.?- Books on "The Higher, Criflcism" were;being?widely read, i and : people's' minds "were bring upset. Some found, ; through ; the : 4nfluehce such reading has, upon • ttiein, ; either that they must leave: tie church, /orVelsft.modify their creed .to., suit :their altered^ ; .conceptions of things ..religious.'," The state : of .affairs ,was oii all fours that through, which the English.:.Churches passed not' long ago,- under ai, -wave, of- rationalism. It was useless to ,force such ■ must .result'upon the peoj-. pie, j,for hnmaiTnatureTSas the consequences'would be a serious split, w4^,the>-ns,uaLresultant soreness. ■.■; As an ideal,**Tmion was, right"; but no one.has.;the right to thrust an upon.an age not ripe : for -it, ;One of the great advantages oii Christianity,: was its Hoidifferenttypes; -,-. Buddhism wag suJFeS to one Buddhism failed. 1 ' : - : ■ CBavv ;Mr Morrison also spoke, at some length in support of- Mr Tddd's motion. The/matter,.. was brbught .up in a careless way in the ''■Jirst place,.;and it?seemed to. him that the.time waSrnot yet ;come for: union?. i ßtatedj.,sevißral,objections to ti>s scheine; .partioularly to,thejSuggestion ' minister could take charge of the larger..church:!;, As. it is, he saidifit is all oiur.'man,can do to look .after his charge properly. v;lfi union-was: to come about it; would come about naturally, in God's ' oifnago^^me^.;;.:.;,--;:.!'g"■ ■■ .■•.-■.;•'■ .jvßev,v-J^r'"Jiqkeon spoke in-Othe same strain, and-was (Supportedby-Mr Stinson. ./lifter discussion, the matter was put.to theyvotetondt:the original motion carried.by ten votes to three.Rev. Mr -Chappell asked thata recommendation be made in _ his favour for a grant of £2O a year for "assistance, and the request wa« granted. ;■; connection: with ,the suppjy :of vacancies in; the churches wae dealt' with at length,' and sustained. for the Presbyterian Church ■ ■ f&fiJUvm Zealand were received, . and discussed at next meeting. \. , The "Presbytery, adjourned to meet at Timaruon'August;23rd atll*ls aim/.'faji* at St.' Andr^w'syon..the. same 'day at 3.30 and 7.M p.mT -' - , '* ,r '''( ' '"