HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Timaru Herald, Volume XXXIX, Issue 2771, 10 August 1883, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

The House met at 2.30 p.m. QUESTION OP PEIVItKOE. Tho Hon. Mr Dick moved tho 'question of privilege. Mr Fish had aent to tho Dunedin Chamber of Commerce certain information of what took place m the Telephone Committoo. Before the roport had been made, the Committee's communication had been sent b&ck to Wellington and published m the Post. His chief object m bringing the matter up was to put a atop to aucb practices, and ho would therefore make no motion on tho point, but the formal one of the adjournment of the Home. Sir George Grey contonded that the facts disclosed no breach. It w&s limply evidence that had been made uso of. Ha contended there was no prohibition against evidence beforo a Committee being publiehod. In important trials eoing on before Committ««, it waa m loran cseea desirable reports should be published day by day. Tbe Speaker ruled that it was clearly a breach of privilege lo publish anything whioh transpired before a Committee. Mr Barron rose to o point of order, and the Speaker ruled tbe proper oourse was to move that a breach of privilege had been committed, and then the publi«her should be summoned to give up tho name of his informant. Mr Montgomery tbou'ht it would be better no to waste time, as no good could come of any further steps being taken. Tho Hon. Major Atkinson slid that was precisely what was proposed to ba dene. All that waa wanted waa to draw attention to the matter, with the view of showing that the practice was irregular and should be checked. The motion was then withdrawn and the matter dropped. BBFITE3 TO QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Mitohelson, tbe Hon. Major Atkinson Baid Government had not considered the question of disfranchising Civil servauts, railway or other Government employee*, but tbe question of the qualification of electors would bave to be considered next session, and if considered necessary, BDjone would then bave an opportunity of bringing the subject forward. Mr Seddon moved the adjournment to

enable liim to disclaim nny connection or sympathy «rith this question. Mr Mobs denounced the Gorernment for not giving a moro docifled miswer. Evidently they hail sympathised witli the provosal. They had allowed tho servico to outgrow all reasonable proportions. In fact they felt it. was running away with then), and they woe now trying to disfranchise a largo proportion of the public. Mr Fish Bupportcil » similar view, ond denounced tho conduit of the Government m tho matter as roprehensible. S r George Grey would refusn to allow the motion for the adjournment lo be withdrawn, and itated that the Opposition would most eirenuouily oppose any proposal of t'«o kind. Mr M. W. Green contended that the statement of the Government cave no cau«o £>r the construction they placed on it ; othoririse ho would strongly oppose them. Tbo motion for an adjournment was withdrawn and tho matier dropped. Beplying to Mr Mitchelion, tho lion. Mr Rolleston eaid Government reco^nined fnlly the raluoof the NovoScotian rcttler* m New Zealand ; but Nova Scotia wm a colony like this, and its Government had immigration schemes m operation. It would, thereforr,be wrong to hold out apeiiil inducements for emigration from that colony. On tho other hand, the Nova Scotian settlors now m the colony might have friends they wished lo bring here, and Government would consider what facilities could bo provided to meet their case. Sir Qoorgo Grey, Mr D.trgaville and Mr Sbcrhan bore (es'imony to the. value of the Nova Scotian settlers already m the colony. Boplying to Mr Duccmi, the Hon. Mr Bolleston said the Government would consider favorably applications by County Councils to havo the control of reserves ussd for gravel and etone quarry purpoies, and also reserves for watering of stock. Replying to Mr Duncan, the Hon. Mnjor Atkin-on laid Government would not consider a propoml to exempt from Me property tax localities rated under the District Railways Act. Replying to Mr Hamlin, tho Hon. Major Atkimou said the existing arrangement at Manakau harbor was considered sufficient, and m tho absence of all complaints, Government d : d not see its way to appoint a resident Customs officer. Beplying to Mr Hutchison, the lion, Major Atkinson said that, m consequence of press of business, the Government did not expect to he ablo to introduce this Beesion an amended Shipping and Seamen's Act. In reply to Mr Seddon, without notice, the Hon. Mr Conolly said thut (he prisoner Ryan who rocently broke away from cu;tidy and lost 12 months rorsiasijn from his sentence, would oniy be imprisoned for a term of 14 daji. KBW DILL. The Settlers Land Bill was introduced and read a firs*- time, on the motiDn of tho Hon. Mr Conolly. BILLS PASSED. The following Bills were patsrl through Comtuittop, wero reported with amendments, read a third tim« and passed : — City of Auckland Additional Loan, VVaimato High Scho'l, Wellington Harbor Board f.and nnd Reclamation, Mataura Reserves Veiling and Era powering. DIRECT STEAM BBBVICB. Mr Driver moved — " Th»t a Select Committee be appointed m terms of a resolution passed on tho 7th AugUß', to consider the proposals fo." a direct Bteam service between Grrat Britain and New Zealand, tho Committee to consist of Mr Rolleston, Mr Johnston, Mr Macandrew, Mr Montgomery, Mr Joyce, Mr Button, Mr W. C. Buchanan, Mr Swanson, Mr Georgj and the mover, and that a report bo made m one week." Agreed to. IN COMMITTEE. The following Bills wero consideeJ m Committee: — Criminals Execution, Property L\w Consolidation, and Chattels Securities. The proceedings were interrupted by the 5 30 p.m adjournment. Tho Houto resumed at 7.30 p.m. The Chattels Securities Bill was reported with amendments and ordered to bo considered to-morrow. 'Ihe other two Bills under consideration before the afternoon adjournment were reported as further considered. NATIVE LAND AMENDMENT ACT. Mr Smith gave notice he would move, on the Native Land Amendment Act going into Committee, that tho pre-emptive right of dealing with iuch lands bo vested solely m the Crown. NATIVE LAND LAW AMENDMENT BILL. Tho Hon. Mr Bryce moved the tecond reading of the Native Land Law Amondraent Bill. Its object was to improve the present mode of dealing with these lands. It was necessary, m the interest of Ihe colony and of the natives, that the proposed changes should be made. The present mode was a reproach to the colony. The New Zealand Parliament had always been conspicuous for its desiro to do what was right and just m dealing with native lands, and he was euro the proposals be had to make with this viow would receive careful consideration. In 1877 an attempt was mado to deal with this subject, but it proved fatal to the Ministry. The next Ministry promised to deal with the subject but did not do so. Notice of the introduction of two Bills was given, but they were not introduced. In 1830 another effort m that direction was mnde but it was unsuccessful. The Native Reserves Bill of last session was m tome respects similar to the provious Bill. He had been promised support from tho othar side of the House m tho carrying of last year's Bill, but at the last moment those promiaai were broken, tho eicuso made boing party considerations. In the present case he was told ho would be supported by many members on the other side of tho House. He did not, however, pliee much faith m theie promises. The Native Land Court) were not doing their work m a satisfactory way. He would not blame these Courts m an unqualified way, as the difficulty of ascertaining titles wa» very great. Originally these investigations wera made by Commissioners and although it worked well m one way m another it did not answer. Then their legislation went m an opposite direction, and m constituting the Courts they made it too much of a Court of law, It would have been better, if instead of Judges they termed the presiding officers " examinera of titles." Family claims bad to be considered, and they should not be too sovero m their condemnation of the work dona by the Courts. The great cause of difficulty m these Courts waa tho constant attempts to purchase rights before the titles were ascertained by the Court. The opinion of theChief Judge waa that this was the causa of 19-20ths of the I rouble and drky. This mode of purchase was not countenanced by the law as it atood. It had been argued that if that were abolished the nativos would not bring thsir land into Court at all. Whatever force there might have been m that argument, now that the Government had provided for the cost of survey it was done away with. Tha present mode was this. The would-be purohaser agreed with, say, three parlies supposed to be owners to tell their land at a given price. The purchaser then got the parties- to apply to have tho title investigated. Then the other parties interested were brought into the conleit. lawyers were employed on either side, and m that way great evil was wrought. The result of all this was that the terms " tollers" and "non-sellers" were freely used m Court. A further result was that the cases were protracted to ruinous length. That, be believed, was the cauio of much of the complication?. It was also against the interest of the buyers, as these negotiations might go on for years, and although the cost 'ell sftea on the teller, that was not by any means always the case. The loss not unfrequently fell on the purchasers themselves. He was now, as he always had been, m favor of the rpsitmption of the pre-emptive right system, although ho knew a -strong feeling existed against him on the point. Despite the faot that the arrangements made with Maoris before tho title was ascertained were illegal, it was novertheleas a fact that m many instances the bargain was confirmed by the natives when the tills was completed. He then went on to review the Government land purchase system, which he ■aid had been greatly abused. Ihe Commissioners not only purchased for the Government, but also for themselves and private individuals. The Government then determined to stop theie purchases. In 1877 large uncompleted pure-hates wers on hand, , and it was then determined they were not

0 go on. A change of Government nt hat time took place, and, despite hat determination, larger contract* than iver were entered into. Ho mail. timed that utisfaetory purchases by the Government •ould not be made m connection with private >ersons. The result yas that since he became Minister he bad done as litila as he possibly :ouM m acquiring these land.'. What tie 3overnment did was to get its advance* resouped out of block 9 before tho Couit, and bat done, tho Government proelnmili >n» »ere withdrawn. It wa? a very difficult hing to put a stop to these purchase, slthough they knew it to be illegal. The ftirohaßeri went on and took their chances. Then the lawyer*, who conductsd the cases ostensibly fur the Maoris, not nnfrequently hud arrangements with European clients to purchase tho land. An an-inge-ment of this kind produced very gnat inconvenience and abuse.. It induced tho lawvtrs to magnify tho interests of their clients. The restoration of the pre-emptive right would do a« By with the«e evils, but there were great difficulties m the way; the want, of money for Ihe Slate to buy with being the greatest. If they had money, he would advise them to restore that right. They had not the money, and it would not be fair to prevent the Maorie selling to private persons wh^n the Crown could not buy. Again, a gr.at many purohares uncompleted, but properly made, were pending and it would be mauifestly unjuttto makftliese parties lo?o their poait ion tnd rights. Inthatcaneagrcnt ditTicullj would aris>, and a Commission to investigate sucli transitions would have to be appointed. Ho was n^r prepared to ask them to revert to that system at present. He hoped the 811 before the Houto would cure the evils existing. It did not change tho law na it existed but only impo-ed penalties for breaches of tho law. If that failed, then next year he would hive to ask them to restore the pre-emptive right, even if a freth loan were required for the purpose. Tlio Bill aimed c.t simplifying the Native Lind Court proceedings, by learingit to the Maoris themselves to prove the title and keep the Europeans nut of the Court. Hi« opinion vtai that while an intelligent lawyer who understood the subject might simplify matters, as a fact it was not done. The Bill left to the Court to ascerUin the title by tho best menus it thought fit and to arij urn the Court from place to place. It w»a Ibe proceedings before tbo Fraud Commiesionejs and not tho monetary penalties he lojked to to work a reform and ttop illegal proceedings. By the Native Committees Bill ntxt on the Order Papor it vras proposed that these bodies should bo enabled to assist the Court m arriving at a just valuation and of settling of the difficulty of ascertaining these titles. He moved the second reading of tho Bill. Mr De Lautour thought tho case had been understated by the Native Minister. Ho did n.>t agree that this Parliament had at all litnos doi>e justice to the native race. With no doubt the best intentions, the Statute Book m that respect had been filled with a series of blundering and plundering measures. The first step on the part of the Government to intorfere and lecogniee individual ti:le lod to Ihe Maori war. A few jearß after th^il system was changed, nnd the Government took great areas cf land from individual* which belonged to tribe*. That was m 1863. The Government then took power to itself io confiscate lands alleged to belong tJ rebel tribes, without nny regard to individual rights, the Government it'elf being the sole judge. Compensation if applied for within six months, was c 'rtainly provided for those who had not been m actual rebellion, but under that Act thousands had lost Ibeir lands for ever. That showed how Parliament could alter its procedure ai it suited tho purposes of the day. They took too individual right, at one time and the next they took the tribal right. In 18G5 they were to give facilities for the individualising of native titles, but the only remitter was to bo tbe Crown graut with ten names. These were to holl it as trustees, but no declaration of trust was recorded between that and 18f>6. These lands were for the most part under embnrgo for stores and rum rupplied to the owners. Tliea again the Government purchase agents did not scruple to participate iv these liens. In 1V73 the first attempt to deal comprehensively with the native land question was made. Under that Act no one could purchase unless he secured the consent of every bolder. The intending purchaser was to camo before the Court, and the Court would not be satisfied until a majority were disposed to sell, and until this was done the transaction was not allowed to go on. Ho traced the cause of the native land confusion on the Bast Coast as it existed when he went there, and ho referred at length to tha beneficial effects of the operations of tho East Coast Native Lauds Settlements Company's operation* there, and eaid it would bo well if similar organisations were established m other parts of tho Island. He was willing to believe that the House was now desirous of making a fresh start, but he dreaded that m their ignorance they would legislate to preserve other people's property for their own use. Unless illegal traffic m these lauds were restrained with a firmer hand, a pecuniary penalty would be of little or no avail. If the exclusion of lawyers meant to exclude them from the ascertainment of subdivison it was wrong, but with their exclusion from the ascertainment of title he agreed. Europeans were interested m tbe former, and bad a right to be represented. The great question was, how was the North Island to be opened up? It would most materially assist our meat trade, but all the available country was locked up by leases. To open up the Bouth Inland he estimated £17,000 000 had been expended. In tbe North he estimated only £7,000,000 had been spent. To give the North the same facilities as the South would coat £15,000,000. In five year/ time the North would be under the heel of the Bouth, unless some better arrangement could bo made. Manhood suffrage and other electoral privileges would bring about that result. A land fund would not do for the North. Then, he asked, how were they going to provide for the North ? I his Bill would not havethebeneficial effect Mrßrycesupposed. He interpreted Clause 10 that if the deed could piss tbe Frauds Commissioners, it would be all right. That simply wa» an inducement far the rich to chance it. Nothing short of imprisonment should bo provided, as nothing short of that would be effectual m stopping pro-purchase before the title was ascertained. He would give all assistance m excluding lawyers from the Court m the ascertainment of native usage, and also the prohibition of the negotiations for the title before it had been ascertained. [r/NFINISHED.]