COLONEL TEIMBLE AT THE ALEXANDRA HALL.

Taranaki Herald, Volume XXXVI, Issue 7339, 5 April 1887, Page 2

COLONEL TEIMBLE AT THE ALEXANDRA HALL.

Colonel Tkimblb, M.H.R. for Taranaki district, addressm! v meeting of his constituents in the Alexandra Hall on Monday evening. Mr. Dockrill was voted to tho chuir. Colonel Trimble said he would deul first with the bills passed laat session, then speak a few words on tho policy of the Government so far as it was df clured, and conclude by indicating what he thought should take ihe plaue of that policy. A large proportion of the statute book of last year consisted of Consolidation Acts, which took up a good deal of space but did not require much consideration on the port of Parliament.

EDUCATION. He had opposed the attempt that was made to put a clause in the Couaty Bill and the Municipal Corporations Bill to enable Councils to subscribe towards the building of schoolhouses. Ec admitted | the advantage of putting up schoolhouses wherever required, but it was the thin end of the wedge of throwing the whole of the expense of education upon localities. Education should be accessible to all, and that could best be don 9 by the colony joining as one body in the expenses for the purpose. Tim permissive clause would in time have become mandatory.

NATIVE BILLS. The Equitable Owners Bill had been much required for years. He had been dinning into the Native Department that something ought ts be done to remove the gross injustice perpetrated under the Act of 1867 or 1868. One clause ia the Nati ve Land Court Bill had also been much required, and prevented the rehearinsr of oases before the same judges who originally adjudicated upon the questions at issue. Another native measure was th'j Native Lands Administration Act. It was calculated to restore what Mr. Bryce had abolished — personal government in native affairs. As soon as the Native Committee appointed under this Act had decided to lease land the matter was taken out of their hands and placed under tbe control of a commissioner, who was bound by the instructions of the Minister of the day.

NATIVE LEASE IN TARANAKK ' While speaking of native affairs he would refer to a matter not mentioned at his other meetings. In Taranaki there were two classes of Maori leases — the old lease got before the perpetual leases were brought in, and leasing from the Reserves Trustee. The position of the holders of the old lease was that they thought they could be renewed at the end of 20 years, or in some way or other pay for and acquire the freehold. Three typical cases had been brought before him, and in each one of them great present loss was being sustained by the tenants, and ultimate loss must be suffered by the native owners. He knewof one propertyin this district wherea vast amount of oapital in proportion to the 'and had been spent upon it. The lease was far gone, and the tenant would take all he could out of it and leave it a waste of fern as it was twelve years ago. Some security should be given to tenants for their improvements. Some provisions similar to that in reference to tha Greymouth and Motueka leases should ,be passed.

ENTAILS AND CIVIL SERVICE REFORM. The Land Act enabled trustees to sell property and reinvest, and was a step towards abolishing entails. There were several entailed estates in the South Island now, und unless a measure wus passed stopping the making af these entails, largo areas of land would be locked up in the hands of people who would have no control over it. The Civil Servica Reform Bill was puerile, and it was so full of exemptions that there was really a difficulty in saying whom it would have effected. EAST AND WEST COAST RAILWAY, , A bill was passed for the purpose of giving the force of law to a large mass of correspondence between the Government and the proprietors of the East and West Coast railway. This correspondence by Act is now to be considered the arrangement between the Government and the company in the event of legal difficulties arising between them. It might be good for the lawyers, bat the colony would suffer.

LOCAL BODIES' LOAN AOT. He explained the provisions of the Local Bodies' Loan Act and the Government Loans to Local Bodies. Local bodies who saw their way to spending money profitably would never get a better opportunity for borrowing than was now afforded, and those who really wanted to avuil themselves of the Act should apply quickly, as the colony could not afford that the Act should long exist. It would add about £2,000,000 to the colonial debt, and leave tbe colony £85,000 a year worse ofi: than it w.s to-day. The Local Bodies Finance and Powers Act was another way of creating debt without the people kuowing what they were doing. DISTRICT RAILWAYS AMENDMENT ACT. This Act should real I j have been called the Waimea Plains Itailway Act, for it simply enabled tbe Government to purchase that Mac. In 1878, when Sir George Grey was Premier, it was not known what to do with Mr. Larnach, who was a member of the Ministry. That gentleman went Home to float a company to buy, his own land and that of some four or five other large owners, and the Government quite unnecessarily, appointed him loan agent, aud paid him £2,500. Mr. Larnach floated the company and the land was taken up at £6 15s. an acre.- The same land was valued at present for Government purposes at £3 an acre, and then the payment of thosd who floated the loan — virtually those selling the land— was 7£ per cent. ; that is, they got a commission of £82,000 to be divided amongst them. To utilise the land, the company decided to make a railway through it, and the security for the railway was to be a tax upon the people of the district. Everything went swimmingly aatil tho line wus opened, and then there was no traffic. One of the directors was the present Treasurer — lie gave it up to be Treasurer ; the Minister of Lands was one of the promoters of the company ; and the Prime Minister was tho legal adviser. After a good deal of shuffling, the purchase of this railway by the Government was oarried by a majority of two. The Government got £122,000 with which to buy up a railway vulued at only £95,000.

THE LOAN BILL. The Loan Bill was introduced for a million and a-half for railways alone. Everyone was given to understand that thiß authority would be sufficient for all kinds of borrowing, with the exception of the £200,000, for two years. Bat when the Ministry said anything it must bo put in bluck and white, and in the clearest passible English, or the person who trusted in them would be diddled. Sir Julius Yogel had frightened us all about the ten million loan, but Sir Robert Stout had pronounced for " tapering off," and it wus thought he was earnest, and that only the railways in course of construction would be gone on with. In the course of the debate on the Loan Bill it was pointed out that several of the railways were entirely new, Buch as the Tophouse and Inangahua, to coat £175,000. These were struck out. A clause had already been passed that the loan should be a million und a-half. It was asked that the bill should be <-e-coui-uiiited in ordor to suit the clause to the schedule. The bill was re-committed the following evening, but it wne found that they were not. dealing with an honorable opjPfliieat, Tlje'AVeußuryrpropQ«ad aot to alter

the clause, but to suit the clause to the schedule by rei lstatiag the two items which had been struck out, saying that that «as what th<? ".iiuisters meant when they pr wiiised to in ike the schedule and clause a^roe. The Treasurer said the money was for no particular railway, and that he had no intention of spen^in-g Ihe money upon tin lines, but only £2000 upon surveys to find whether tho country was adapted to a railway. They had been told that the voto-> should be earmarked, and only given to specific works; but here was a proposal to appropriaNs money for lines in the air. The Opposition got angry, the Government supporters got an 'ry, and the Treasurer got very nn^ry. The Premier Baw that he could not face the House, so he gave in. The Treasurer s*'v\ that by knocking off tby.se items the (louse would bring disaster upon tbto country According to their own showing the Government were not going to spend the money for two years, so what could the disaster be ? Tho Premier, too, got very theatric. He (Colonel Trimble) never saw a man do tho thing better. FURTHER BORROWING. When it waa neen that the whole of the million and a-half was to be for railways, the House wanted to know what was to become of the pledges for roads and bridges, and schoolhouse and other buildings. The answer was that there was in the Public Works Fund £800,000. It was pointed out, however, that a large amount of the £800,000 was not only pledged, but actually in the hands of officers for payment. They got rid of a portion of their difficulty by deducting £100,000 from the North Island railway loan for the purchase o£ native lands, and then they took off another £320,000 lior rails, thuß making up one-half of the £800,000. That did not give a very lively impression of- the financial arrangements o£ the country under the present Treasurer. RETRENCHMENT. The people were hearing a good deal just now about retrenchment. (Hear, hear.) He only hoped all they heard was true. - He did not go in for the wild ideas of some people ; he believed retrenchment could be effeotediby amalgamation. He read about the reductions that the Government were making, but he could not get a very clear idea from that as to what was being done. A large sum might be saved by striking out the Forest Department. The time had not yet come for planting, because the trespass of cattle could not be stopped, and young bush would be . destroyed. The department had been ?oted £16,634. BOTORTJA RAILWAY. Colonel Trimble referred at length to the purchase of the Rotorua and Waimate railway bonds, by which a member of the House got £1050 as commission. That sort of thing should not go on in a responsible Parliament. If it did go on there might be honest men in the House, but nobody would btlieve it, and the very fact of it not being believed would not only be a disgrace to the country, but a serious Joss. The Government were also doing other little jobs. He noticed that the Government had rece ltly refused the application of the Hawera Corporation for a little lake and small area of ground for town purposes. A large public meeting of seven persons was got up, . and a resolution was unanimously passed that Mr. McGuire, who is to oppose Major Atkinson, should use his great influence to get the lake, and the lake is got. These and other small things contributed to keep anyone from feeling any confidence in the Government as it stood, THE GOVERNMENT PROGRAMME. Colonel Trimble then referred to the Government policy as sketched out by the Premier. He would oppose Protection. ' The tariff should ba revised in the direction of freedom of trade. It behoved the people of the colony to see that the credit of New Zealand stood well next year, as 3J millions of the debt, then became due. If money had to be borrowed at a high rate in order to pay that off a loss must result. He expected there would be a deficit of something like a quarter of a million this }'ear, mainly ia Customs and Railways. The question was how was it to be met (a voice: By ci income tax). He said it should be by revision of the tariff in the interest of freedom of trade. BORROWING BILLS. One point he would impress upon his hearers, and he hoped to impress upon the House, was to have all the loans in oae bill. As it was r.t present ihe people did not know what they were borrowing, und the debt was heaped up unexpectedly. A limit of £750,000 a year should be put upon borrowing. Railways were going on now where it would pay better to let the gniss grow. Then there were other lines which it would be wrong not to proceed with. He was quite satisfied the borrowing of the country could be reduced. Only let the peoplefsee what was doing and depend upon it they would put some check upon it (applause). ' RATING NATIVE LVND. He believed that every acre in the Islands should have a definite owner, and that could odly be attained in the North Island by having Commissioners or the Land Court extended to such a degree that they could quickly go over the whole islaDd and ascertain the ownership of the native lands. And he could not see that because a man had a darker skin than he had that that man should escape lates and taxes. (Applause). It would be said that the Maoris would by that be forced to sell their land for an old song. The Government,' however, should be given the power to purchase any of their land, whether good or bad, at its real value, unimproved by public works. He was not in favor of spending one or two millions on a line through land not to be taxed. The Native Minister had told the Maoris that their land along the North Island Central Railway waa to he free from taxation. That muofc •be unsaid by somebody. Let the land come into the market before it had its added value. The cost of purchasing it would not be large, no more than half & million of money.

LAND LAWS. The Land Laws of New Zealand were too frequently changed, and they should be let alone for, say, ten years. . BOAD TO CENTRAL RAILWAY. He and Major Atkinson had had an. interview during the session with the Minister of Public Works about a road from Taranaki to a point on the railway line. Mr. Richardson then stated ; that there was a very fair Burvey of tbe country lying between Mimi and that point, and that the road could be taken that way with great eaße when the country * required it. Ho (Col. Trimble) waa under the impression that the cost per milo waß stated to bo £8,600 a mile. It was also asked that the other routes should bo looked to, the btratford route for instance, about which the Hawera people were very anxious. He and Major Atkinson said, " Don't let us have disputes on insufficient datu. Let us have a thorough survey of bot<i, and then be satisfied." Afterwurds in New Plymouth, Mr. RichardBon said thai the engineer who the Government intended should make the survey would be detained on the North Island Hue for a month. At the end of the month Mr. Richardßon wrote to Bay that it would be three months further before the engineer could bo spared. A suggestion wus then made that another engineer who could be spared should bo cent. No direct reply was given to this, but information hud been reoeived indirectly, and he be. lieved. jt wus, ageu.ra.ts, thftt tbe Govern,

ment considered it has ia its possessic sufficient information both on tl Strr.fford nnd Miaii lines for aotio when the time comes, but that a thir survey was now goinjf oh. He fancie< the third survey must be at Mokou, but i was only a guess on his part. That wu the whole mutter so far as he was concerned. It was a matter ho never neglected, and they were not to think for a mompnt that Mr. Samuel took no part in it. In matters of that kind all the members of the distriot pulled pretty well together. THB HABBOB QUBSTION. He had intended simply to ref6r his hearers to his Parliamentary speeches on th« harbor question, and challenge any man to point out where he had made a misstatement, or exaggerated or minimised any fact. But the proposal madb to the Harbor Board during the last few days forced him to say more than that. Now, a good deal had been said about rating. When the deputation went to Inglewood to ask people for support to the new loan, they were told clearly and distinctly that there would be no rating on the old bill for five years, if at all, and none on the new for three years. These words were also repeated in June in the letter and advertisement published ia the Herald, and signed by the Chairman of the Bourd. Now, what information has there been before the Board in the interval that makes them say that before next September a rate must be put on, to cover the whole of the rating area, for the old bill ? [A voice: Because the new bill was thrown out.] If the new bill had been passed, how vrould it- hamo enfthlnrl them *•» v<*j the rate unless they put their hands illegally on the funds. [A Voice: Give me ten minutes on that platform and I'll show yon.] Colonel Trimble: That gentleman must go out if he won't behave. He is not a constituent of mine The only way to have paid this rate would have been to put their hands in the pockets of the bondholders. [A Voice: No.J That was the sole mode of doing it. When the deputation were at Inglewood, he (Col. Trimble) asked them upon what they made their calculations, and they stated clearly and distinctly that they had no figures about it, but that two of the members had gone into figures and come to this conclusion. (Applause.) They could never have come to that calculation on sufficient data, becanse it was notorious at the time that the income they were getting could not possibly provide for the interest. I do nut believe they knew it, and I am not blaming them. (Laughter.) They went to the House in the same way and made statements regarding tne income and so on. For instance, they stated as a positive fact that their income would net £2500 a year, whereas their gross income last year was only £2700, though it was said there was to be an increase of 60 per cent. Where is the increase in the dnes? I asked the deputation whether the rumour was true that in their income they had charged upon their own goods. I was told that that was true. I ÜBed these words : " Then you have virtually no surplus at all." They said other things not reported but which I am telling you now, and I challenge them to disprove it. Their gross income this year is £2700. Now if you add 60 per cent, on to £2500 you ought to get more than £2700. In regard to endowments they boasted they brought in an income. They had nominally profit upon reserves of £29 all but 6d. When Mr. Samuel was before the Committee he put down the revenue from endowments at £1000 a year. When the chairman said there was nothing to justify that, Mr. Samuel said that the reserves were worth £16,000, and that surely 6 per cent, was not too Bunch to estimate for income. So upon the pretence of getting £1000 some day you set it up as present income to pay present liability. Colonel Tbimbliß then related what occurred in Committee and was reported in the Committee report, and to matters connected with the bill. All the rich parts of the district, which were likely to offer opposition, were left ont. (Laughter.) Opunake was left out (laughter), and the whole of the Waimate Plains was left out. Ec had asked the chairman of the Board before the House Committee, "Do you believe the harbour will benefit these portions cut out?" Mr. King said, "I have no doabt it will be a beßefit to the whole of the country." (Hear, hear, and applause). " Why, then, did you diminish the old rating area by this amount ?" was then asked. "Because we were anxious to restrict to such districts as would vote for the loan. (Hear, hear.) We should be unwise to try to get it vetoed by those sure to be against it." Col. Trimble said he wanted to know from Mr. Samuel why a representative of a district comprising five-elevenths in value of the re ting area had been shut out from the consideration of these arrangements. Mr. Samuel said the reason Colonel Trimble had not been asked to join the conference on the subject of districts was because it was thought inexpedient to introduce a discordant elei ent into the discussion, and it was iinofiible to expect that Colonel Trimble would be otherwise than a discordant el< meat. (Laughter and applause.) When the fate of the bill was sealed Mr. Samuel a< cepted all the amendments on the Order Paper but one. That odo was by Mr. Hislop, of Oamaru, and required that the old area Bhoald be re-instated , and that in addition to that Hawera Borough and Pawera riding should be included. The Hebald grumbled in little paragraphs that it was wrong that Hawera should not be put in. (Hear, hear.) The Premier said that the burdens put upon the Taranaki settlers would be veiy grievous, yet he voted for the second reading of the Bill. The Premier Beemed determined in conjunction with New Plymouth to make the burden mot-e grievouß by forbiddijg the levy of the rate upon Crown and native lands. He (Colonel Trimble) now came to the precious scheme of conversion. It appeared that something v/as in the wind. Had a letter come from the bondholders ? He did not think a conversion loan of 4 per cent, could be raised. It might be at 5 per cent. Instead of giving £40,000 premium, as would be required with a 4 per cent, loan, only £20,000 would be required with a 5 per cent. The interest on the £220,000 would be £11,000. £20,000 payable in thirty years would form an annnity of £3000 over and above what the law says we have to provk'e. Why shojld we pay any extra amount? The bondholder took the loan at a low price because the security was dubious. The great institution which nc foliated the loan knew its value, and when it sold to others these persona knew how to take caro of themselves. He would like to ask why were they going to convert the loao, tor it had already been converted to a 4 per cent. The very fact that the inoonie will only pay 4 per cent, converts it. What more do you want. (Applause). He was quite certain that no such bill as talked of would pass Parliament, and if the ratepayers adopted the provisions of the bill by a vote they would be hanging a millstone round their necks that they little dream of. He bad been accused of fanaticism. Ho had frequently been silent under great provocation, but ht had always been in earnest, and he hud always strove for peace. Somebody from Stratford apparently wrote to ihe Hebald in August Just eoying something which be supposed was thought would be in his (Col. Trimble's) favor. The Editor of the Herald appended a footnote as follows — •' Our correspondent cannot understand the BorencEß that seems to exist in Now Plymouth against Colonel Trimble. Our apswer is that when a gentleman gives his Wor*3 ; US Colono} T.rjmb!a fld, «t _tfie Iwt

election, that so far as the harbor waa concerned be- would remain neutral on the question, and offer no active opposition, and when he breaks his word," etc., etc Now he' said that he had never made such a statement as that imputed to him by the HBRALD.and further, that the writer in ■ the Herald knew it was false when he • penned it. i Mr. Skffkrn : I heard you say it, air. i Colonel Trimble : Here ia an assertion ■ thatl publicly-stated during the last elecI tion that I would not interfere in the getting of a new loan. I &ay that the man who says so does not speak the truth. Mr. Sbpfebn : I say again I heard yon, sir. Other Voioes :So did -I. ["Uproar] I Colonpl Trimble :My actions had been thoroughly incompatible with the assertion that I ' was making pledges. From the moment the loan was touched upon I gave warning and then I was denounced by the Herald and it has been opposing me ever since. (Uproar). It is not the yellsof two or three foes who will decide the next election. I have had all these gentlemen opposing me ever since I went into politics. The Herald has always opposed me, and yet I have gone in, and I will go in in spite of it again. But one thing I will tell you. When 1 come forward for election I will tell you as 1 have always told you — what ought to be done. I will not recede from that. When I come forward I will advance great principles upon which the colony ought to shape its course (uproar). It does not depend upon looal groans whether I am the right man or not f You're not]. And supposing after a constituency is tired of a man and throws him out— what if it does not agree wicn Dim, and does not understand him — where is the disgrace ? But supposing I have deceived [Voices: You have, you have), and they put me out upon that, it would be dishonorable ; but that I have not done, and no assertion of I the miserable editor of the Herald I [nproar and cries of "apologise," and no " personal matters ""|. Well let me give one particular case. My first election I was told I should be defeated, and bo I [ was the second and third time, and now I am told' for the fourth time. I am no prophet, and dont pnt up to be, but I will go in again. I look to the election without fear of the result, and if they have thrown other people aside they will not throw me. [Hear, hearj. - A discussion then arose as to whether only constituents of the speaker should address questions- The Chairman ruled that others should not take part in the meeting. Replying to questions, Colonel TRIMBLE said that he knew nothing about the Harbor Board dealing with the new street. Mr. Oonnett : Colonel Trimble has blamed Mr. Samuel for not accepting Mr. Hislop's motion to include Hawera and the other districts. Would he have supported the bill if Mr. Samuel had accepted it ? Colonel Trimble: I am not prepared to answer questions with "ifs"in them. (Groans.) ' Mr. Connett: Does not the Colonel know that it was Major Atkinson, his bosom friend, who was the means of having this large area cut out? . Colonel Tbimble: I know nothing about it. The Harbor Board keep anything of the slightest importance secret. I mdi cated in my speech that the bargain was made; at whoso instance I do not know. Perhaps our friend will unravel it now. Mr. Connett: Col. Trimble has stated that in spite of what was said by the members of the Board, viz., that there • would be no rate for a considerable time, a new rate would have to be levied at once. Does he not know that money was taken to build the wharf which if the loan had passed would have gone to pay interest ? • What necessitates the rate is his action. Colonel Trimble : I utterly deny the position. The new lpan oooid only have saved a rate by allowing other money to be taken over for purposes not intended ; and if the money is now being spent legally on the wharves it would have been illegally spent if devoted to meeting interest, Mr. Connett : It has been decided that we could use the money, legally on the wharves. Colonel Tbimble : In an arranged case, in which the bondholders we*e not represented. It was all done in a month, and the bondholders could not possibly know anything about it, whilst their interests were being played with at the time. Ie way be all right. lam not a lawyer, and will not give an opinion. Mr. Connett : Was it not Mr. Samuel's intention in forcing tho bill through with the restricted area to gave expense at another time — that an amendment could be obtained without the necessity of getting a new bill through ? Colonel Tb?mble : Not a hint was given to that effect. I knew nothing about that nonsense. It was never proposed or mentioned in Hansard. Mr. Connett : You say you only used Parliamentary means to throw ootthe bill. Seeing that it was merely a permissive measure why did you arrogate all the power to yourself and not let the electors have a chance ? Colonel Tbimble : What chance did they want ? Mr. Connett : To have a vote. Colonel Tbimble : The electors sent mo three limes to represent them, and it was my business to save them from all chance that could be detrimental to their interest. Ab to stonewalling, very few people understood the matter. If I had beeu stonewalling the Speaker would have stopped me. He has never - stopped mo since I went to the house, for the good reason tbat I always keep myself in order. Replying to another question, Colonel Tbimblb said he did not think it right that the Premier end Attorney-General should also practise privately. It was, however, the custom in New Zealand, and it was said that if the practice was not allowed only inferior men would take these Ministerial positions. Mr. G. J. Newman proposed a vote of thanks to Colonel Trimble. The speaker bad told them many truths, and he was pleased to have listened to him. Mr. J. O. George seconded the ! motion, which was oarried unanimously, amidst cried of "no confidence,". The meeting then dispersed,