NEW PLYMOUTH HARBOUR BOARD BILL.

Taranaki Herald, Volume XXXV, Issue 7113, 10 July 1886, Page 1 (Supplement)

NEW PLYMOUTH HARBOUR BOARD BILL.

Mr. SAMUEL, in moving the second reading of the New Plymouth Harbour Board Bill, said that he did not intend to delay tho Houso long, for his attention had been repeatedly drawn to the fact that only something over two hours remained for the purpose of dealing with this and three other local Bills that afternoon ; but it would bo necessary for him to make some explanation to show the necessity for this Bill. The Local Bills Committee of tho House had gone into tho meiits of this question, and had taken evidence at great length both for and against the Bill, and had given a report which would save him and save the Houso much time that otherwise would have had to bo devoted to the matter. That Committee had reported that — " The existing harbour works at New Plymouth afford accommodation for large vessols in moderate weather and at or near high water, and that the amount stated in the Bill — namely, £GO,OOO, is necessary to pro\ido acccmod'ation for such vessels in all states of the tide and weather." That report affirmed the necessity of this further loan of £00,000, authority for the raising of which was sought in this measure. Tho haibour works at New Plymouth, as most honotnable members were aware, consisted of a breakwater which now extended to a length of 1,800 ft., and afforded accommodation for four hours every tide to vessels of the class of tho " Wakatipu " — that was to say, vessels drawing 19ft. or 20ft. of water, which were now employed by tho Union Company in the intercolonial trado ; and vessels of this class now called at New Plymouth, making it the last port of call between New Zealand and Sydney. A great quantity of produce, principally butter, had been exported from Taranaki to Sydney for some time past, and it was now growing into a regular trade. But it was found, in tho words of the report, that in order "to provide accommodation for such vessels in all states of tides and weather," it is necessary to borrow and expend a further sum of £00,000. Hence this Bill. The woiks had been carried out, so far, in a most substantial manner. The Marino Engineer, Mr. Blackett, in his evidence before the Committee, gave very convincing evidence of this, and no evidence whatever had been adduced on the other side. In fact, it was admitted on all sides that it would bo difficult to find more substantial or moro reallycreditable works than the present works at Moturoa. The trade had very largely increased latch', and, though there were attempts made to show that the trade w as not likely to be such as to warrant further expenditure, all figures which might be cited in support of this wero thoroughly inapplicable, for the clear and conclusiie reason that these works had not as yot been carried out to such an extent as to prove remunerative. In fact, the harbour was very much in the position of railways that had not been completely constructed, and which, therefore, could not give a fair return for the expenditure. Weie he, then, asking the Houso to affiim the desirability of constructing these works, it would be necessary for him to go into far gieater particulars ; but, as he merely asked the House to give authority to the ratepayers themselves to decide whether or not to raise another loan for the carrjing-on of these works to apajablo point, he did not think it would be necessai\ for him to trouble the Houso with figuies. Estimates taken before the Committee had clearly shown the necessity for expending this fuither £00,000 in order to utilize the money which had been already so well expended. Although some years since it appeared to a Committeo of the House that the works had not then been carried on in such a manner as to givo a fair return on tho money expended, that was not the case at the present time. Not only had the expectations of Sir John Coode been realized as to the amount of work that would be done, but they had actually at this time 45ft. more of breakwater than Sir John Coodo expected they would get. During the last four years the work had been carried on so economically and efficiently that tho money which had been to a certain extent uselessly expended previously had been more than recovered, so to speak, by the extra economy since manifested, and the care and attention bestowed upon tho work. Ho would now move the second reading of tho Bill. Sir R. STOUT said he was a member of the Local Bills Committee that considered this Bill, and the Committeo recommended the passing of tho Bill. Personally, he would vote for the second reading of the Bill ; but he thought that one provision insisted on by tho Local Bills Committeo should also be insisted on by the House — namely, that, if the new loan was raised, there should be a rato raised at once, so that tho interest on the new loan should be paid out of thac rate. The reason, for that was that, from what had taken place in tho Taranaki District, thero was a danger of rates coming on tho people in two or three years of such a character that he did not see. how the small settlers in the district would bo able to bear the burden cast upon them. He thought it was a pity, in years gone by, that such a work as the New Plymouth Harbour, which should bo the harbour of refuge on tho West Coast, was not constructed by prison labour, which might have relieved tho district of grave responsibility. Ho thought that tho burdens cast on the settlers of Taranaki would be very grievous ; and, as this Bill proposed to cut out what was practically the richest part of the district, although it would remain liablo for the rates for tho previous loan, the burden would como with still greater weight on the remainder of tho Taranaki District. However, if the ratepayers were willing to face the burden and impose tho taxes necessary at once, ho did not think the House would refuse them that power, because it was remitted to tho ratepayers to deal with the matter themselves. On the assumption that the clause ho referred to would be inserted in Committee, he would suppoit the second reading of tho Bill. Major ATKINSON asked the Premier if ho would entertain tho idea of still taking over tho 25 per cent, of tho Land Fund, and employing prison labour there. Sir R. STOUT did not think they could undertake to tako over tho Harbour Board. No doubt, if prison labour could be spared, they might assist the Board. Ho was only expressing his opinion that it was a pity it had not been done in the past.

Major ATKINSON said it was the present he wished to consider. Could tho Premier hold out any hope ? Sir R. STOUT would not liko to give an answer off-hand. Major ATKINSON said, then would the Premier entertain it ? Sir R. STOUT would consider it. Colonel TRIMBLE said that, notwithstanding what ho considered to be the very favourable remarks of the Premier — that was, favourable to himself and the position he assumed — he would be obliged to opposo tho Bill on its second reading. It would bo necessary, in order to do so with anything like effect, to inform the House, first, of tho history of this measure, and, secondly, of the manner in which tho district was to bo rated, and the burden that was to be imposed upon it. It was in tho year 1574 that the idea seemed first to have occurred to certain politicians that it would bo a good stroke of business to get the land revenue of the district for the purpose of a harbour. Now, at that time there was literally no land revenue available in Taranaki. There was no Crown land available at that time in the province, and when Parliament voted one-fouith of the land revenue for harbour purposes it was voting what was at that time considered to be almost worthless. In fact, it was very liko the proposition that had been put before the House in tho Bill as it was now proposed — that was, that a largo district of country was included in the schedule which had no present value as land revenue or for the purpose of taxation, which had been put in, not because of its present value, but because it might possibly at some future time have a considerable value. The Provincial Government of Taranaki had power, under tho Act of 1874, to appropriate onefourth of the land revenue for harbour purposes, and it at onco did so, by an ordinance passed in 1875. Power was taken, when there was literally no land revenue whatever, to raise a loan of £350,000 ; and, in order to provide security for the loan, it was proposed to hand over the 25 per cent, of land revenue — ■which at that time amounted to nothing at all — and to imposo a tax upon tho unimproved value of tho land of the district. A rating area was formed, and a tax was to bo levied not exceeding 2d. in the pound on tho value to sell. Buildings, erections, and improvements wore to be exempted. In 1576 and 1877 there was a continuous agitation in favour of proceeding with tho works. He took an opportunity, at as early a date as that, to point out tho great burden that would necessarily fall upon the ratepayers, in tho absence of a land revenue. But of course ho was then contradicted, as ho had been lately, with regard to his calculations : they were all v, rong ; nothing but a rnero trifling tax could possibly be raised ; and so on. This happened in 1577. When the Board came to negotiate with the Bank of New Zealand for raising the loan of £350,000, and when the bank authoiities had considered the question more minutely, they at once declined to havo anything to do with tho loan unless the Board came to this House and obtained its consent to reduce the loan to £200,000 — which was the utmost that by any possibility could be screwed out of the province — and make the chargo upon the land a fixed rating amount, so that the people would know at once what they were doing. A Bill was introduced and passed which reduced the borrowing power to £200,000, and fixed the taxing power at Is. in the pound on the annual value. Now, it was said that this Is. in the pound on the annual value was tho basis on which taxation must necessarily bo levied at the present time. He was not going at any length to show that that was an erroneous idea, because under "Tho Eating Act, 1882," the rato of Is. given as security for any loan was to be treated as a Jd. rate upon tho capital value. It had been said, he knew, that tho express wording of " The Harbours Act, 1877,"fixed the amount at Is. without change ; but tho valuations now in existence for the whole of Taranaki County were taken upon the Government valuation, and there was no other valuation; and tho Harbour Act of 1877 stated expressly that it was tho valuation for the district recognized by tho authorities of tho district that was to bo taken as the valuation upon which rates are to bo levied. That being tho case, the real burden was Is. 3d. in tho pound for that loan of £200,000. The honourable gentleman said that the money had been well expended. He (Colonel Trimble) was not here to criticise tho mere mechanical work of tho breakwater, but would remind the House that tho plans of Sir John Coode, which he said must be completed in order to make a good harbour, were estimated at £750,000. So that whilst the honourable gentleman saya that £00,000 was only necessary to completo this work, Sir John Coodo who, he (Colonel Trimble) apprehended, was a much better authority, said it would take threo times £2G0,000 to complete the work. Then, it was said that trade had gone to tho placo, and in Committee it was stated that tho rates of freight had been greatly reduced owing to this breakwater. Now, tho facts wero these : Some years ago a Harbour Board was appointed at Waitara. That Board got a small sum of money by way of loan to complete certain works there. Four years ago, long before anything could be landed at the breakwater at New Plymouth, tho rates of freight from Onehunga to Waitara, which meant really New Plymouth, wero reduced from 255, and 30s. to 12s. Gd. So that tho statement that tho freights had been reduced on account of tho breakwater was a pure romance, and had no foundation whatever. The honourable gentleman said that the trade at New Plymouth was considerable, and was greatly increasing. Let tho House, then, take tho testimony on tho subject. In tho testimony given before tho Committee by tho Chairman of tho Board it was stated that tho imports last year amounted to 8,592 tons, and tho exports were 2,092 tons — that was to say, the total of tho imports and exports at tho New Plymouth breakwater amounted to something over 10,000 tons. Now, what was tho trade during tho last year, up to the 30th April, at tho Township of Waitara? Instead of 10,600 tons, with an cxpendituro of £200,000, tho trade at Waitara, with an expenditure of £19,000, was 14,000 ; so that tho trade of tho placo was not going to Now Plymouth, as had been contended, but was continued at the Port of Waitara. Then, it was stated in Comrnitteo by tho Chairman and tho engineor of tho Board that neither of them could tell tho quantity of cattle exported

a ltliovigh they said a very large quantity was going from New Plymouth. Those who knew anything of the trade- knew that this was all nonsense. There was not a largo trade there. But look at Waitara, which had been no expense to the country. In 18S2 2,905 head of cattle were exported ; in 1883, 4.054 ; in 1884, 5,G58 ; in 1885, 4,414 alive and 4,473 dead. The cattle trade at Waitara had therefore risen, between ISB2 and ISBS, from 2,900 to 8,900. Then, with regard to sheep : In 1882 there were exported 14,716; in ISB3, 2-1,404; in 18S4, 31,611 ; in ISBS, 40,804 alive and 17,151 dead. So that there was an increase of this trade between ISB2 and 1885 from 14,700 to 57,900— an enormous increase, notwithstanding the fact that those gentlemen asserted that the trade at Waitara was going down, aiid that at New Plymouth it was increasing. He need not go into tho question of horses, because they formed a small part of the trade, and the average was affected by peculiar circumstances. Some mention had been made of tho rating area, and it had been pointed out that tho Bill of 1877 fixed the rating area, following the lines of tho Provincial Ordinance of 1875. At tho New Plymouth end of the province an arbitrary line was drawn from tho entrance of the Mokau River, and carried due cast to the then boundary of tho province. It then canio down by that boundary to a certain point which he need not particularly describe, and proceeded thence by tho Waingongoro River to the sea. He wished to draw particular attention to this, because it bore specially on the present proceedings. At tho timo that boundary was fixed there were in the then Provincial Council of Taranaki threo representatives from what was known as the Patea District. He had it from the three gentlemen who were then representatives in the Provincial Council that the reason why the district south of Waingongoro River was exempted from taxation was, that they threatened to oppose the Bill if their district was not exempted ; but that, if it was exempted, they would vote for the Bill. There was a remarkable parallel between the action of .thoso gentlemen, and the action at the present time of tho honourable member who represented the Patea District in the House. If the district from the Waingongoro to Opunake had been included in tho Bill, they had it, on tho testimony of that gentleman before the Committee, that the honourable gentleman would have opposed the Bill ; and his opposition would ha\e been fatal to it. The gentlemen who wore representatives from the Patea District in the Taranaki Provincial Council in the year 1875 got their district exempted in order to buy off their opposition, and -the Harbour Board of New Plymouth was now buying off the opposition of the member for the district by excluding another portion of that district from the rating area. Now, what was tho testimony before the Committee with regard to that rating area ? Every w itness stated that the portion of the district which had been excluded got as much benefit from the harbour works as the part of the district

included in the rating area. There was no difference of opinion on that point ; but this was a curious part of it, that all the witnesses agreed that tho present trade went to Waitara, so far as cattle were concerned ; and ho had shown that, as far as goods were concerned, the same thing applied, because, notwithstanding the facilities of tho New Plymouth breakwater, the goods imported into Waitara wero considerably larger in volume than those imported into New Plymouth. So that, both in exports and impoits, tho value of tho trade at Waitara was infinitely greater than that at New Plymouth : and, as he had shown, tho ono was a huge burden to tho country, while the other did not cost the colony one penny. Then, with regard to the rating area, it was said that it was a very moderate thing to tax this district in order to pay for the loan of £200,000, because the valuation of tho district was large ; and Timaru was held up as an example to illustrate the position. lie would, however, ask the Houso to consider tho difference between tho two places. Tho valuation of tho land held in private hands in the District of Taranaki as set forth in the Bill now before tho Houso was £1,117,000. Here he would liko to explain to honourable members of the Committee who might happen to bo present the difference between tho testimony of the Chairman of tho Harbour Board and himself on this point. Tho Chairman put the valuation at £1,G00,000, but he arrived at it in this way : Tho valuation of tho district was £1,117,000 for land held in privato hands, but there had been no valuation since 1882 of the quantity of Crown and Native lands subject to rating, and, the amount not having been ascertained for tho now taxation, tho total amount appeared greater than it actually was, from this circumstanco : that almost the whole of the Maori lands wero hold under len.se, and would produce nothing except under tho now valuation ; while a large quantity of Crown lands which used to yield rates were disposed of and wero now valued as private lands. The Chairman, therefore, gave the valuation twice over — first, as included in private lands, and then using them to swell the total \aluation. Ho took it that £200,000 would cover the total taxable area of Crown and Nativo lands — making tho total of tho taxablo property £1,317,000. And what was tho taxable propcity of Timaru? Nearly £7,000,000. Now Plymouth, with a debt of £260,000, was to levy a rate on £1,317,000 ; while Timaru, with a debt of £200,000, had £7,000,000 to levy a rate on. The ono was a burden to a pigmy, while the other was a very small burden to a man. Now, liQ-wanted to know why this area was taken up. Ho had given ono reason — a reason avowed beforo the Committee — that, to buy off opposition in 1875, they oxcluded tho District of Patea ; and now they threw out tho land between tho Stony River and tho Waingongoro, as it was under tho old Bill. There was no rhyme or reason in anything of that sort. It was a monstrous injustice that the Waimate Plains, of the value of half a million, should bo cut out of tho district, as well as Crown lands to a largo extent. 110 would now show how the people of the district had been hoodwinked over tho matter. The Chairman of the Board and the Mayor of tho borough were sent round to persuade pcoplo to bo taxed. They went to Ilawera, held a public mooting, and gavo tho pcoplo a most glowing account of the advantages to be gained by shipping butter from there to Sydney, and they took a vote as to whether those people would

have themselves included in the rating area. The meeting was small, and the number of voters there was smaller, and, as reported in the newspapers, the resolution was carried, ten persons voting for it, and seven against it. And, when he had suggested that that was a very small number to represent a large and valuable district like the riding and borough of Hawera, one of the deputation said, "There were more than ten ; I counted them myself and there were eleven." Eleven persons were to bind the whole district, including the borough, to be taxed by the New Plymouth Board ! To show how ridiculous that was, as as soon as ever the meetings -were over the framework of a Bill was concocted, the Hawera County was included in the rating area; and what then happened? Why, the honourable momber_for Egmont had an interview with the Board and the whole thing was thiown overboard ; and, in consequence of that, a new rating area was formed, throwing out not only the new district which it had been proposed to put in, but that rich part of the old chstiict, which was worth, so far as private lands were concerned, over half a million of money. Then immediately a strong feeling of discontent arose at the New Plymouth end of the district, and the people there said, quite naturally, " Why should we have to pay and these others be exempt?" Then a hurried meeting of the Board was held, and it was decided to again put in the other part of the district. Then new difficulties arose, but he had then left the district, and the first he had heard of them was before the Local Bills Committee of that House. The public knew nothing about thib — it was a secret arrangement. Even the representative of the district most concerned knew nothing about it, and he wanted to call the attention of the House to this point : There must be a redistribution of seats, and one district included, that of Ngaere, mu4 necessarily be in his electorate, and he must therefore say it was very friendly and very kindly of those whoso action lie had been referring to to arrange these things in that way. But they had done it, and if tho Houso confirmed it, it would be done permanently. But he did not believe the House would confirm it. He believed the House would reject the Bill altogether, as unnecessary and unjust. It had been said over and over again, in the Committee and elsewhere, that Waitara was a poor harbour that could not do the trade of tho district, and could not possibly do the Sydney trade which there had been so much talk about. Now, he had received the previous day the following certificate by tho captains of two steamers trading regularly to Waitara : — "We are of opinion tho s.s. 'Clansman,' of the Northern Steamship Company's fleet, of COO tons, 12 feet draught, her steaming capabilities arc 13 knots — capablo of accommodating between 100 and 130 passengers on a voyago from Waitara to Sydney — could enter the Waitara River at spring tides with perfect safety for trading betw een tho two ports named. "Robert Daniels, " Master s.s. ' Stafla.' "Pinelly Me Arthur, "Master s.s. 'Gairloch.' " Waitara, 28th June, ISSG." This Sydney trade could be done in a very few vessels. Only two shipments of butter had been sent direct from Taranaki to Sydney, one of 1,200 kegs, and the other of about 1,000 kegs. This was all that so much had been said about in the Committee and elsewhere. Of the last shipment, a great deal could not be put on board owing to the rough weather. The following telegram, lately received from Waitara, would explain what had become of it : — " ' Gairloch ' left here yesterday morning, taking 350 kegs butter, for Sydney via Auckland, short-shipped per ' Wakatipu.' " It had been said that tho butter trade concentered at New Plymouth, but that was a complete mistake, for more than a third of all the butter sent from the district was shipped from Waitara. No mention of that was made to tho Committee. And tho valuation of the cxporC was purely mythical. The whole butter export of New Zealand last year was a littlo over £100,000, and the deputation claimed that Taranaki contributed £71,000 of that. It might havo been thought that they had the exafct figures, but really their figures on this point were just as loose as tho other figures put before the Committee, and would not bear examination. There was another point. Some eighteen months ago the new engineer, Mr. McGregor, had proposed that the strong parapet which Sir John Coodo had proposed should bo put on the outer edge of the outer end of the breakwater, and which was estimated to cost £13,900, should be dispensed with, and that, instead, the money should bo devoted to building two wharves inside the breakwater. The Board considered this so excellent a proposal that, on tho strength of it, they gave Mr. McGregor a valuable appointment as consulting engineer. Mr. SAMUEL.— No. Colonel THIMBLE said yes, and he thought lie knew moro about harbour matters than the honourable member. He was speaking of the consulting engineor, and not of the gentleman in chargo of tho works, who was an overseer, and not an onginccr, though a good practical man. But boforo the Committee neither of tho members of tho deputation knew anything about this proposal, and seemed surprised when it was mentioned to them. Hero was a most material and important proposal, which had led to tho appointment of the engineer, ignored by both I llow was it he (Colonel Trimble) knew about it, living in the country and only learning of Harbour matters from the newspapers ; and thesa-two men, whoso business it was to be conversant with every point of tho Board's aflaiis, knew nothing and could tell tho Committee nothing at all about it ? And now with regard to tho burden. Tho honourable gentleman who introduced the Bill gave evidence before the Committee — nnd hero he would liko to say that this was tho fust timo any one connected with tho Board had really faced this question. No doubt his honourable friend had made his calculations from the figures of the Chairman of the Board, but he put them in as practical a way as possible, so that they could bo understood. The honourable gentleman's figures were these : — Liabilities — £ £ Old loan, per annum . . 14,000 Now loan 3,000

Income — £ £ Net ordinary revenue . . 2 , 500 Reserves 1,000 Land Fund 4,500 Interest on deposits . . . . 1 , 500 9,500 Deficiency 7,500 Deficiency to be met by rate of Is. per £ pound on old rating area . . . . 0 , 000 To be met by rating under new loans 1 , 500 And he added, "It will not be long before reserves bring in £2,000." These figures I have now to analyse. The amount of net revenue, including last year's resen es. was £443. Now, the Chairman of the Board acknowledged that most of that £443 was a complete mjth, because it included dues levied on the Board's own material and stores imported, and it therefore went into one account as revenue and into another account as part of the cost of tho woik. Then, there seems to be a debit balance against the Government for harbour dues ; but the Government never paid harbour dues, so that could not be counted. But, even assuming that it could, he wanted to know with what face the honourable gentleman could say that a net revenue of £443, at the very outside, would in one year jump to £2,500 of net revenue. They said that one way they hoped to do it by was by a stroke of business with the Government in the shape of handling Government goods, and goods that passed over the railway, by means of which they would make a profit. But that was puiely a matter of guess, and nothing more ; but that brought a net revenue of £443 into an asset to meet this liability of £2,500. Now as to land fund. The honoiuable gentleman set down £4,500, and the department, £4,040. He would take it at tho amount put dowii by the honourable member. And then ns to the accuracy of the item for endowment. He (Colonel Trimble) had stated that the revenue from the endowments of the Board last }-ear was only a few pounds, quite a nominal amount. The honourable gentleman set it down at once that £1,000 would be got from endowments. He stated that in tho capital value of the assets of the Board £IG,OOO was set down. That was the value of their endowments, and the honourable gentleman said, quite coolly, that it would be a very moderate amount indeed to say that .6 percent, on that was the income. But when he was asked what tho present income was he said that it was virtuallj* nothing ; so that hero, again, nothing of a revenue was to be converted into a revenue of £1,000 a year. Let him tell the history of one of those endowments which was to produce this wonderful amount. Before the loan was raised a portion of the Land Fund was appropriated to a certain reclamation — he thought about a couple of acres. Ho was speaking now from memory when he said that it was reclaimed at a cost of £4,600. From that day to this it had never produced one penny-piece of income. It was waste ground, and might be waste ground for many years to come. And this was set down as their most valuable endowment. They had property worth £16,000 — property of the nominal value of £16,000 — out of which the honourable gentleman had at once got £1,000 a year, though they had hitherto not got twopence from tho great bulk of it. Then ho put down £1,500 of interest upon the amount of accumulated Land Fund. Now, what was this Land Fund ? This very year they had to pa3 f out of it £14,000. Another year would swallow it up. In two years the whole of it would be swallowed up by paying interest and sinking fund on the old loan. Yet this was to produce £1,500 a year. By this means the honourable gentleman got £9,500 to pay £17,000, and he said tho amount of deficiency would be got by rating. Ho (Colonel Trimble) would show how untrustworthy these figures were. According to tho statement of the Chairman of the Board, which was grossly exaggerated — he did not say wilfully, but tho Chairman did not understand it — the valuation of the larger areas was about two millions. Now, if the tax was to be Is. — and tho honourable gentleman maintained that it was only to be Is. — that would only produce £5,000 ; but the honourable gentleman set it down at £0,000. There was another sample of tho mode in which these calculations wero made. I will now show the account as amended : — Annual liability £17,000 Income — Dues and reserves (last year, £443) say . . . . £500 Land Fund .. .. 4,500 5,000 Deficiency 12,000 A rate on old rating area — In privato hands .. ..1,626,000 Crown and Native lands, say 474,000 2,100,000 Annual value, say £103,000, at Is 5,200 Special tax on new rating area 3,000 5.250 Loss to creditors on first loan .. 3,750 Now, when they deducted the errors which he had shown, the public creditor would be £3,750 a year short of his interest. And that must como in about two years. It must do so, because these figures of the honourable gentleman were purely imaginary. Not one of them was woith a snap of the fingers, as he hnd shown them ; but the expenditure was ceitain. Then, in all those calculations, this again was overlooked: they had not put down a single penny-piece for keeping the works in repair. There was nothing for dredging, though it was unquestionable, whoever might deny it, that where tho " Gairloch" could sail a few months ago she could not sail now. So that the sand was silting up, and ho thought there was a gentleman in the House who could say that whilst he was on board her nose went twice into tho sand. Mr. BALLANCE was not aware of it. Colonel THIMBLE said the captain reported that. Mr. BALLANCE said it was through tho weather, and not through the sand-bank. Colonel TRIMBLE said, there was nothing whatever in the calculations made by any of these gentlemen for keeping up tho woiks, nor for dredging out the haibour and keeping the sand down. At the present timo they wero

working in son en or eight feet of sand at tho entrance to it, and had to dredge it out before they could put a block down. Well, then, ho maintained that the figures put before them were uttcrlj' untrustworthy — utterly value. pss. There was another point. They said that tho land would be quickly settled, and that theie would bo a largo revenue from it. But what did Mr. McKerrow say ? He was asked tins: —

"Do you anticipate any large increase in the value of land owing to the New Plymouth Harbour? — No ; not in tho immediate futuio.

" How is that ? — Tt is a nature of a country that wants a good deal of woik to break it into shape. I do not think the harbour will havo any immediate effect on it.

" Can you inform tho Committee as to ■whether much of this land (back land) c:\n be settled quickly? — It is sold in very small portions.

" So that to got it into market and raise a tax from it to assist in the payment of the loan would take a considerable number of yeais? — Yes ; it would be very poor as a rating district for a long time. " It has been alleged that the rates at present are 4s. 4d., 4s. 9d., and ss. 2d., aceouhng to different localities, and this Bill would impose an extra rate of Is. If this is borne out, do you not think that such a heavy rate would be dctiimental to settlement ?—lt? — It would retard it ; and I should think it would certainly depreciate the value of propoity." Now with regaul to the taxation. It was shown to tho Committee that in contain districts the amount of rate now leviable was 2}d. in the pound, besides the rat? for chaiitablc aid. That would be 3b. Oil. upon the annual Milne. Now, he had shown, ho hoped, eonclushely that the tax for which they were liable upon old loan was Is. 3d. in the pound ; and under this new lo.m it would be Is., which would bo 2^;. 3d., and that added to the 3s. 9d. would make Gs. in the pound, besides the charitable aid. Then they were told that out of butter, above all things, they were to pay all this and make fortunes. And this was glibly said by people who lived in the town, and who knew nothing of the process of making butter, or tho piobabilitieV of glutting the market. Ho had sold good \butter at sd. a pound in Taranaki. Who was going to make a for tune out of that? Fnepence a pound was tho standard price of butter in that district some time ago, and they were told that they weio going to make fortunes out of it I And upon that statement they were asked to provide tins additional accommodation. He now wanted to say one or two things about the Bill itself. Clause 4 stated that the Board might use the capital of the loan in paying the first year's interest. There was £3,000 relegated as a future burden. Then, they were told that it was going to be left to the latepayevs. Now, he must toll the House how that would necessarily work. The ratepayers were divided into districts, but the owner ci a quarter-acre section in a deserted township had his vote, and might havo one m every rating district withm the area. He not only had a vote in the district in which he resided, but wherever he had a piece of property, if it was onl} r the size of a person's hand, if it was rated, he could have his vote. Now, in order to utilize the votes of people who lived in the towns and owned small sections in the country, they had most ingeniously arranged that the elections should take place on different days, at the option of tho Chairman ; so that, by a skilful manipulation of the thing — by a sort of hocuspocus — the owners of small sections all over the district — in Stratford, with a population of perhaps a couple of hundred people and an area of twelve hundred acres, in Inglewood with a population of only three hundred on an acreage of one hundred and seventy acres — could absolutely outweigh tho people of the district. But, in addition to that, there was this : the expenditure was in the town and the taxation in the country ; and the town would go as one man for the taxation on account of the grist which they thought it would bring to their mill. That was a fact which must not bo overlooked. In the country organization was very slow, very difficult, and very expensive. Tho richer people of tho town would have all the benefit of close proximity in their organization. In the country all was difficulty and expense, and the want of organization and habit of oiganization. So that tho united town against the country, even with a small proportion of it on the side of tho town, must necessarily win in any election. And this was all calculated in this Bill, and the arrangements wero so made that facilities would bo given to those people to use their votes at the poll. Ho wished now to allude to the repoit of the Committee, and then he would be done. The Houso must have noticed that the honourable gentleman treated this very gingerly. He did not tell them anything about tho recommendations or opinions of tho Committee, nor did he tell them that ho was preparing clauses to meet tho views of the Committee. Not he. He did not tell them, for instance, that the Committee said " that tho additional burden that will be cast upon tho district for paying interest on the loan will bo very heavy, considering the burdens for the existing harbour loan." He did not tell the House anything about that, or the position of the Committee in reference to that point. And how nicely and gingerly he passed o\er the circumstance that the Committee drew attention to tho fact that the rating district had been repeatedly altered apparently without rhyme or reason. He did not call attention to tho fact that the Committee lecommondcd that, if tho Bill passed, thcic should be a clause introduced insisting on the late being levied, before anything should be done towaids laising the loan. These wero matters upon which the honourable member was carefully and judiciously silent. Where were the clauses and piovisions that were to meet the views of the Committee. Smely they should have been placed on the table of tho House or in the pigeon-holes of honourable members, so that the people in the district might have known something ns to what was to be their fate. Then, look at the petitions that had come to the House in reference to this Bill. The House had leccived a large number of petitions against the Bill, and, more than that, he had received letters from chairmen of meetings at Ngacio and Stony River protesting against tho unjust lating area, and piotesting •against the Bill piocccding. The honourable member for Egmonl, too, had received a similar protest from tho chairman of a meeting at

Stratford. Were these not to bo considered ? Were the views and wishes of tho people of the district never to be taken into account ? In 1577 they had no opportunity of their views being made known. All the members from the district were rowing in the same boat; and when ho came to Wellington that year to oppose tho Bill he was not even informed that ho might appear before tho Committeo and state his case. This was tho first opportunity that tho settlers had had of placing before the Houso the merits, or rather the dements, of the schemo of harbour -making and scheme of taxation which had been propounded, and ho did hope that honourable members would apply themselves to tho matter with the view of doing justico to tho hard-working and struggling settlers of the country. Tho townspeople could look after themsehes very well, but it was not so easy for the countiy people to do so. Ono thing was quite certain, that if tho country progressed the town must do so also, but tho tow n could not progress unless the country forced it on. And then with regard to tho expendituie. It was thought the expenditure of this mono}- in the town would do it immense good ; but experience showed the contrary. In 1577, when the Bill was passed, a Town Councillor of New Plymouth got up and said how nice it would be for New Plymouth to have £40,000 a year spent in it for h\e years, and how much good it would do to the place. Tho same remark was echoed everywhere. But what was the fact? The Township of New Plymouth had two hundred fewer people in it now than it had fivo years ago ; so that tho expenditure of £10,000 a ) ear for five yeais had taken place, and the prosperity of the town had not increased. That was a very remarkable fact. The newspapcis tried to account for it by saying that the people had gone out into the suburbs — that they had been crushed out of the town, in fact; but the truth was that tho Electoral District of New Plymouth had decreased. It was only in the country, where tho people minded their work and worked hard, that the population had increased and was rapidly increasing. The expenditure of the £2C0,000 had done no good to the town ; and he did not believe that the proposed expenditure, if it were agreed to, would benefit the town as was expected by the townspeople. It would bring in a few extia mouths leady to take in somo of the < o ooA things which might be going; but, just as the town was now in a worse state than when the expenditure commenced, so it would be in a woiae state than it was now in when tin-, expenditure was o\er. He begged to move, That the Bill bo read a second time that day six months. Major ATKINbON said that the speech which tho House had just hcaid was, to his mind, a \eiy liiteiesUng one, and a decidedly able one, and, knowing the \eiy strong feeling that the hououiablo gentleman had upon this subject, he must say also that it appeared to him to he a vtiy mcdeiateone; but,ashodiffeied\eiy mateiiall) fiom the lior.ouiable gentleman, he desired, as shouly as possible, to place his mows on the subject before the Ilou^o, and to give his leason-, for suppoiting the Bill. First, ho would reft. r to tho statement last made by the honourable «i.ntleman, with regaid to the town being nnxious for the expenditure. He hardly thought that the honourable gentleman was fair in lcpiesentnig that the town simply desired the expenditure of the mono}-. At any rate, the honourable member would, he knew, acquit him of suppoiting the Bill simply on account of the expenditure ; and ho might add that, if he believed that that was the only object, or the chief object, or the principal pait of tho object, no one would be stronger in opposition to the measure than ho should be. 2STow, he wanted to give, first of all, his reasons for suppoiting the Bill. When the Bill was first piopoacd ho was in doubt, and had to consider seriously the position that he should take up in regard to it, and it was not until he looked into the question caiefully that he saw his way, as a country settler, to suppoit the Bill. And he wanted the House distinctly to understand that he had iio interest in the town, and that his whole interest was that of a countiy settler who lived within the area which was now included in the rating district, and who would have this extra burden put upon him. He had looked at the matter from that point of view ; and the position was that there was a breakwater complete 1 to a ceitain point by which the people ot Taranaki weie connected with the Union Company's steamers at certain times of the tide on many days in the year on which it would have been impossible to communicate with them unless the breakwater were in existence. Generally speaking, they now managed to catch the tide, and he had seen steamers there on days on which, in years gone by, it would have been impossible for them to havo come in. They would havo had to go by, and they would not have been seen even in the offing. He had had unfortunate experience of that sort of thing himself. That was the prefect position: and he hal to consLler that he was now liable to a possible Is. rate in case the Land Fund failed. That was Is. on the annual value. He differed entirely from tho honourable gentleman when he talked about the rate being Is. 3d. in the pound, and he might explain that the difference between them was this : Under the original Act it was authorized that a rate might be levied, but not to exceed Is. in the pound on annual value. Then the Rating Act of 1882 changed tho annual value into the capital value, and it set out that Jd. in tho pound on the capital value should be taken to be equivalent to Is. in the pouund on the annual value. It appeared that in some districts the change was equivalent to the rate being raised to Is. 3d., and that was how it was that tho honourablo gentleman arrived at the conclusion that the rate in the Taranaki Harbour District was now Is. 3d. instead of Is. ; but he (Major Atkinson) dissented from that altogether. He know very well that in his own district, speaking of his own property, the rating was lessened by the imposition of |d. on tho capital value, and that they would not have to pay a rate of Is. 3d. in the pound, but Is. When it was said that they were liable to a rate of Is. 3d. in the pound it should be said that they were liable because the Act said that they should be liable to Is. — 5 per cent, on tho capital valuo — and the Act of 188J substituted ]d. in ' the pound on capital valuo for Is. in the pound annual value. Then, he had arrived at this point : that tho country ratepayers were subject to a rate of Is. in tho pound for the breakwater in its present position. Now, it was no doubt the case that Waitara was a good little poit, and there was no doubt that it did a great deal of the trade at the present time ; but it failed entirely, and would continue to do so, in putting the farmers of Taranaki into communication with the other provinces by means of the boats which traded up and down the coast. In other words, the Union Company's steamers invariably called at the breakwater, but they never called at Waitara; and that, to his mind, was of great importance. It was quite true that tho trade at the present time was done largely by way of Waitara. The figures of the honourable member for Waitara showed that, and he did not pretend to dispute them ; but it was quite worth the extra risk of taxation to securo the

regular calling at New Plymouth of the steamers which traded to Auckland and tho southern ports. They wero told that tho "Clansman" went to Waitara, and that that was quite sufficient ; and so it would be if you had plenty of time, but it would be much beDter to havo tho Union steamers calling every week, giving regular communication with tho outer world. Further than that, in his opinion, it was a great thing for the district to havo tho Sydney steameis calling at New Plymouth. Tho Sydney steamer, tho " Wakatipu," had called there twice ; and when tho money proposed to bo raised under this Bill had been spent it would bo possible to accommodate her at the breakwater at any state of the tide. At present these steamers wero not able to go alongside the breakwater at all states of the tide ; there was not quite depth enough of water. " Tho Wakatipu " could only go alongside at high water, and could only stop alongside for a short time. Then, he would say that, as a settler, he had to consider whether ho desired that the works should stop, and that boats should have only tho present accommodation ; or whether ho would bo prepared to run the risk, or tho certainty — for ho was quite willing to take tho certainty — of tho extra rate in order to build the wharf, which they wero advised could bo built to accommodate, not only the whole of tho coastal steamers, at all times of tho tide, but also to accommodate tho "Wakatipu " or tho Sydney steamers going from Wellington to Sydney. Being now liable to the present rate, ho had said to himself that ho would rather face tho certainty of paying an extra lOd. or Is. rate — although ho did not think it would long remain at that, as the district would largely expand. He was willing to run the risk of that in order to have proper accommodation provided for the steamers, rather than pay half tho rate and have, as at present, but half accommodation. That was a matter that no doubt practical men would disagreo upon, and his honourable friend would not run that risk, but would prefer to see the works stopped, the district allowed to develop from Waitara, and then presently to go on with tho work. There was a good deal to be said for that view ; but, looking at it as a country settler, ho had come to tho conclusion that ho would rather run the risk of the extra, rate, and get tho extra accommodation. Then, his honourable friend said that he had it from the members of tho old Provincial Council that the reason why Hawera had been excluded from the boundary was that the three members would have opposed it if it had been so taken. He had not the least doubt that had tho district been extended to the south those members would have opposed it ; but that would not have made the least difference, for they would have been but three against the rest of the Council, and there would have been no difficulty in carrying it whether they approved of it or not. He thought his honourable friend had hardly done justice to tho Council in saying that they only voted this district south of the Waiorongomai out because i£ they had not done so three honourable members would have opposed it, for the opposition would havo been prectically useless. The real reason why it had been left out was, that it was shown that the Waitara was a very handy little river, that they were practically getting their supplies from that, and therefore ought not in fairness to bo charged for a harbour that they wero not using. These arguments were met by the Council excluding that district, and that was the reason for its exclusion. The House should understand that Hawera had never been included in the district. There was a vagueness about tho statement in regard to this point. It %\as only said that Hawera— Waimatc were excluded, but Hawera had never been included in the district. The members of tho Harbour Board had said that the people of Hawera would only be too delighted to come in and rato themselves and join the rest of tho district, and they sent there and held a meeting ; but it was noi: a representative meeting. He had no doubt that the residents there were not the least likely, under the present circumstances, to come within the rating district for the purpose of imposing burdens upon themselves in this respect. Then came tho question, Why should Waimate be excluded ? He would say why he took tho view that it ought to be excluded. He held that in all these Harbour Board Bills — and he had tried to impress that upon tho Board — the land nearest tho harbour, which wa3 receiving the greatest benefit, ought to pay the largest proportion towards the cost — that there ought to be a differential rate. The Harbour Board had met that to some extent and had imposed only a certain amount upon that district. Ho did not want to go back to old days, but he might say that great discontent was caused in years gone by. The Waimate Riding had been subject to this rate, and the people did not like it. They always contended that they were not drawing much from New Plymouth, and that their source of supply was rather Hawera or Wellington than Auckland. It was quite true that they used Waitara for cattle ; but their chief business was with Hawera, and, when it came to a question of putting further burdens upon them, they said that surely they were burdened sufficiently already, as with all the rest of the district they were liable for rating for the £200,000, and it seemed to them only fair and reasonable that this extra £00,000 should not be put upon them, but upon tho districts more directly interested. Well, that seemed to bo a very fair reason, and ho was not prepared to say that tho Waimato Riding benefited to anything like the same extent as other districts. Supposing it got, as it could get, its goods lauded at cither Waitara or New Plymouth at tho same rate — coming through New Plymouth there would bo forty miles to bring them by rail, and coming through Waitara there would be only eighteen miles to bring them by rail ; so that honourable gentlemen would sec, bearing in mind that tho district was liable to be charged for tho £200,000, the district had somo claim for differential rating, and this would bo effected by tho other district being charged with the extra £00,000. He had no idea of striking out the Hawera Plains. No doubt there were people there who would vote either way. Ho had been assured by members of the Harbour Board that the people there would bo only too glad to bo rated ; but ho was bound to protect their interests m this matter, and not to see burdens put upon them which seemed to bo unfair. As he had explained, for this harbour he was willing to subject his property to the exUa rating, and the same rating ho was prepared to put upon himself it seemed to him fair to put upon his neighbours if, when the Bill was passed, they approved of it. He understood there were over two thousand voters in tho country districts, as against fivo hundred voters in the town. Thoso figures had been given to him as received from the Registrar-General. Whether they were correct or not he did not know, but he had no doubt the honouiable member in charge of tho Bill would be able to say whether they were or were not. An Hon. Member. — Grossly inaccurate. Major ATKINSON.— At any rate, they would be got accurately ; and he was certain that his honourable friend had no idea at all of swamping the country voters by tho town voters, and,

if it was found that ho had any such intention, then he would assist tho honourable member for Taranaki in seeing that tho country voters wero not swamped by what ho termed 'tho " bogus voting for the paper townships." Now, all he had said did not affect the difficulty of where to draw the line. There was the great difficulty. If one was excluded, then it was said, Why not another ? and so on. That, he admitted at once, was tho weakness of his case. It was difficult to draw tho lino; but he had endeavoured to draw it, and, like most people who interfered between contending parties, was likely to go to tho wall in consequence. Ho had received all sorts of telegrams from all parts of the district. In one case the request was to support the Bill ; but generally he was requested not to support the Bill unless Hawera and Waimato were included in tho district : but he had taken his stand as a country settler desirous of doing the best he could for his district. He had received a telegram from Stratford, which was in his district, about thirty miles from new Plymouth. A public meeting had been hold there, and they decided that they did not wish tho Bill to pass. Telegrams to the same effect were received from Hawera and Stony River. At Stony River it was stated that they wished to be included in the Opunaki District. Ho had taken what seemed to him a fair course. Tho principle on which ho had gone was this : he had looked as far as ho was ablo to see what districts really drained into tho harbour, and had included those districts. Tho difficulty in drawing the line ho admitted; but he had drawn it as , fairly as ho could, and was prepared to' support it, for the reasons he had given. Then, the honourable gentleman told them about tho desperate amount of rating that would come upon the district. This appeared to him an exceedingly weak point with the opponents in this matter. He would liko the House to consider what the rating meant, because he looked at it in a very different light from what other honourable gentlemen apparently did. Ho had lived in tho district for the last thirty years. The district, unfortunately, never had any Land Fund to make roads, and the residents had alwajs been obliged to put their hands in their pockets to make roads, and it had therefore always been what was called a high-rating district. Tho rate had ne\er been less than Is., and it had been 3 s. 6d. Since the three-faithings rate could be imposed tho rate had generally been in the pound, and the road-dibtrict rate, at any rato in his district, had always been -]d. Then, how did they get this six-shillings rate ? Tho road district levied a rate of Jd. in tho pound — that was estimated at Is. 3d. Then the county levied a rate of Jd. — also estimated at Is. 3d. Then tho road district decided to take advantage of tho Roads and Bridges Construction Act for the improvement of their propertios, and they put on another three-farthings rate* But these rates were put on for tho improvement of their own land. He did.not.look upon them as being tho same as the property-tax imposed by tho General Government — they were voluntarily imposed for the improvement of their own properties. Ho could not look upon these rates as some honourable gentlemen did, but regarded rates for road purposes as trade expenses which must be undertaken in order to raise the value of their properties. They got these three three-farthing, rates, and estimated them, not at Is., as he thought they ought to be, but at Is. 3d. each. -Then they get tho other shilling, or, as the honourable gentleman called it, Is. 3d., for the harbour loan ; and in order to make up the six shillings they called these rates one-and-threepenny rates, and the present loan they estimated at a shilling rate. This, ho submitted, was a very exaggerated way of putting it. He contended that what they had to look at was not local rates for their own roads at all, for if they did not like to have roads they need not pay for them ; but they thought it better to pay for them than to go along with tho old mudruts. What they had to consider was whether they would go on with the present rato of Is., or Is. 3d., as it was called, with the harbour unfinished, or bo liable for another shilling and have tho harbour completed so that such ships as tho " Wakatipu " could come in at any time of the tide. One word with regard to tho decroase in tho town district. Now, he doubted very much whether the electorate had decreased. That might seem a curious thing to say, but ho would like to call tho honourable gentleman's attention to the fact that his electorate also had apparently decreased. The same cause applied to the town as to the district of his honourable friend. When tho colony was divided into electorates when the last Representation Act was passed it had to be done upon estimate. The census had not been taken for some considerable time before, and it had to be estimated. His honourable friend knew for a fact that his own district had very considerably grown since the last census. How wero they to account for tho fact also that it showed less this year than four or five years ago ? 'The reason was that the Registrar-General was wrong in- his estimate. He (Major Atkinson) thought the same thing had occurred in the electcttttrtc of the Town of Now Plymouth. Ho was puzzled for some time, because when ho looked at tho town he had not the least doubt that it had increased also. There were also several little suburbs in which people who would otherwise live in the town now resided ; so that reduced the population of the borough. To his mind, it was really not a matter worth considering, because he looked at it from the broad point of view — was it really dcsirablo that they should bo put in regular communication with the rest of tho colony at this extra charge. His reply was Yes. Then ho would refer to the point with regard to the sand. The local jealousy was a \cry unfortunate thing, indeed. If the " Gairloch " happened to ran by Waitara, and went to Now Plymouth, the New Plymouth people said, " Look at Waitara ; it is no good at all. The ' Gairloch ' had to como on here." On tho other hand, if the " Gairloch " went to tho breakwater and could not land, it was supposed that the sand stopped her — that she ran her nose into tho sand, and could not get alongside. The truth was, these wero local jealousies which ho did not think would weigh much with tho House. Ho had taken great pains to inquire of competent authorities, and the question was asked at the Oommittco whether there was any real fear of this sand blocking up tho harbour. All competoViirauthori ties agreed that there was no f oar whatever. The Marine Engineer made a statement before tho Committeo that, in his opinion, the sand was not a matter for any serious consideration whatever. Then, tho honourable gentleman said this was the first time that the merits of this harbour had ever been before tho House. The honourable gentleman had entirely forgotten the celebrated Committeo known as Mr. Wright's Committee, when the nouso was going to take over the harbour, or rather to stop all the works. Then all tho merits of tho scheme wero gone into thoioughly. All sorts of evidence was called, and on the report coming up the case was stated to the House ; and tho House almost unanimously determined to leavo tho work to proceed as a .satisfactory work. Now, tho only doubt he had about this Bill aroso

from what had fallen from tho Premier. Tho honourable gentleman had held out a hope — if he might not use a stronger term — that the Government were prepared to take this harbour over. Sir R. STOUT.— No. Major ATKINSON.— WeII, the honourablo gentleman should explain. Ho had made him (Major Atkinson) quite cheerful. Sir R. STOUT explained that what ho said was, that he regretted that in the past prison labour had not been used in the construction of this work. Of course it was quite a question now whether tho Government should not aid in some way by giving prison labour, but tho Harbour Board would be still constituted, and would havo to look after its loans. Ho never dreamt of the Government taking over tho Harbour Board with its liabilities. Major ATKINSON said his hopes fell to the ground. The honourable gentleman saw his way, probably, to give them somo assistance. No doubt ho would support the Bill heartily. Sir R. STOUT would support the second reading. Major ATKINSON wanted more than that. No doubt, after assisting them to get the money, the honourable gentleman would provide them with labour at a cheap rate to go on with the work. lie thought that was a very satisfactory state of things, and they would take an early opportunity of waiting upon the honourable gentleman to see how far they could get him to persuade his colleagues to be of the same mind as himself on this matter. Ho trusted the Jlouso would f,eo its way to read the Bill a second timo, and they would see how it came out of Committee. He had no doubt that they would, in tho meantime, wait on tho Premier and get such a schemo under way that tho honoiuablo member for Taranaki would withdraw his opposition before the Bill got to its final stage. Mr. UURSTHOUSE regretted extremely that he considered it his duty, in the interests of a class of people with whom he was intimately associated for the last foity odd ycais, to oppose this Bill. The people of Taranaki were peculiar. They wero "zealous for good works." They had been extremely zealous in the prosecution of this work. From his earliest days ho had had it instilled into his mind that it was absolutely essential, before New Plymouth could obtain that position to which she was entitled, that she must have a harbour; and now the Piemier had told them that, in his opinion, it was necessary that tho colony should contribute towards tho construction of this work, to mako it a harbour of refuge. It appeared quite evident to any one who had taken an interest in the construction of this work that it would be necessary to expend not less than £750,000 to mako it a harbour of refuge. He did not like to question the opinion expressed by so eminent an engineer as Sir John Coode, but he very much questioned whether the expenditure of even £750,000 would make the New Plymouth Harbour a harbour of refuge in the senso in which that term was generally used. Any one who had lived on that coast for a number of years, and watched carefully the powerful seas that set in to tho northward of Capo Egmont, must bo impressed with the fact that with any reasonable expenditure, less than many millions, no harbour of refuge could be made there for any except extremely powerful steam vessels. lie had taken especial interest in this Bill for two or three reasons. In tho first place, Taranaki was endeared to him by tho fact that tho early years of his life wore spent there — that he was intimately acquainted and connected with a great many praiseworthy ratepayers in that district. Secondly, ho was a member of the Local Bills Committee, which took a great amount of interest and trouble in discussing the merits of this Bill, and also took an exceptional amount of evidenco on both sides. The evidence proved conclusively to him two or three very important facts. It proved conclusively that, if this Bill wero passed, tho rates which would bo necessarily levied to meet the annual_charges upon the expenditure to be mado and that which had been made would be very oppressive to the settlers there — that it would be absolutely impossible for them to meet their liabilities. Ho had been fortunate in living in a district where the rates had not amounted to more than one-fourth or one-fifth of what would be necessary to meet the liabilities of this Board should this Bill become law. lie said, as a practical man, that even with a single Yd. rate, at tho present price of agricultural produce it was extremely difficult for the agriculturist to live. Now, they had it in evidence, and it was not disputed, that in some localities proposed to be rated by this Bill tho rates were enormous already. The rates wero described by the Chairman of the Taranaki County Council in this way : lie said thcro was a Jd. county rate, Jd. special rate, under tho Roads and Bridges Construction Act ; Jd. Road Board rate ; Road Board special rate, under tho Roads and Bridges Construction Act for district roads ; and thoro was, in the not far distant future, £d. for hospitals and charitable institutions. These were the ordinary rates tj which tho settlers were subject at the present timo. Let the House look at what this proposed rato meant, in addition to the present enormous rates for road-making purposes, which, by tho way, tho honourable member for Egmont did not think should be called rates becauso tho settlers voluntarily took them upon themselves. The logical conclusion of the honourable gentleman's argument was that the more rates tho settlers took upon themselves the better for them. That was a very cheerful prospect. Tho honourable gentleman used to tell tho House, when ho was Colonial Treasurer, that we had only commenced to rato ourselves. Well, if the honourablo gentleman hold such doctrines it would make him (Mr. Hursthouso) very doubtful as to voting to put tho honourablo gentleman back on tho Treasury benches a«ain. Now, what was to be obtained by tho "construction of this harbour ? Ho had lived in that district for twenty-five years, and ho had lived for fourteen years in tho Provincial District of Nelson, where they had abundance of harbours and no Harbour Boards and no harbour rates, and' ho ventured to think that tho benefit!, to bo derived from this harbour wero very much over-estimated by the residents of New Plymouth. He believed that they had now, at Waitara and Opunako, and at tho mouth of tho Patoa River, facilities for getting their, produco to a large .shipping port equally as cheaply as the people of Nelson and Marlborough could. It was shown in evidenco that produco could now be taken as cheaply from Waitara to Sydney as it could bo direct by tho Union Steam Shipping Company's steamers if there was any produce to send. It was true that it would have to bo sent by sailn" ship and not by steamer, but ho did not know that that mattered much to tho exporters of butter and carrots. When tho Chairman oi tho Harbour Board was asked what additional products could bo exported from this garden of New Zealand where the faimeis were ready to tax themselves to tho extent of from 2s. 9d.to3s. od. in tho pound, that gentleman suggested carrots. Ho was not aware that there was such a demand for carrots in Sydnoy, but ho would take it for granted

that ie was so, and would merely point out that carrots were a produce which would travel much better in a cool, sailing ship, than in a hot steamer, for they did not like a high temperature. One of the groat advantages to be gained by the construction of this harbour was that the dairymen of Taranaki would bo able to export their butter to Sydney at a slightly loss cost than they could at present ; but that had not been pro\oJ. On tho contrary, it was proved that by transhipment from Waitara to Auckland, or from New Plymouth to Wellington, they could got their produce to Sydney at tho same rato as id wa-> now taken by tho "Wakatipu " from New Plymouth. Ho therefore failed to see where tho great advantages in that respect wore to come in. Then, there was another great consideration, that when the railway from Wellington to New Plymouth was completed — and they wore told on good authority that that would come to pass by September next — the dair\mon of Taranaki could send their produce by railway to Wellington, and have it transhipped into the steamer for Sydney as cheaply as they could send it direct by tho " Wakatipu." Ho had been struck with one idea which appeared to have grafted itself on the minds of all the witnesses who had been brought to give evidence before the Committee in favour of the completion of the work. It was that it would gne facilities for the trade in butter between New Plymouth and Sydney. Now, that was really only a temporary market. The honourable member for Taranaki pointed out that a few r years ago the average price of butter in New Plymouth was ,kl. a pound, but there was no doubt that dming the last two 3'cars he would find that it had risen to about Sd. a pound. At all events, the price averaged fiom 7d. to 10d., and the average might be taken at, say, S.}d. a pound. There was very little doubt that the demand for this commodity in Sydney at the present time was owing to the drought that had existed in that colony for the past few years, but no ono could have any doubt that, as soon as more favourable weather set in, the people of that colony could produce all the butter they required for their consumption. Another thing, also, should be taken into consideration, and that was that the New South Wales Government were at the present moment apparently inclined to impose a duty on butter imported into that colony, and of course that would tend materially to check the trade. There could be no question about it that tho market for the dairy produce of New Plymouth would be found in England or some other place, and not in Sydney ; and he was satisfied that the market in Sydney at the present time was only a temporary one, and would cease as soon as ever more favourable weather set in in that colony. It was for these reasons that these good people were determined to tax themselves to so high an extent. There was another reason also for that, and it was that extraordinary provision in the Harbour Board Act of 1877 that 25 per cent, of the Land Fund in the district was to go to the Harbour Board, to be expended only in interest and sinking fund on the loan. If that provision had not been put m the Act these harbour works would have ceased long ago. He was perfectly certain that if the powers given in tho Act to raise rates had only been exercised for the purpose of creating a big shipping port, and if the people had been called upon to pay the heavy taxation which it involved, they would have recognized that they wero paying too high a price for this harbour. He had heard it stated, and on very good authority, that Oamaru had been almost ruined by tho enormous rates which had been imposed upon it for the construction o£ its harbour, coming as they did upon other rates ; and he must say that the difference in trade between Oamaiu and New Plymouth must lead to the conclusion that tho same would be the result in the latter place. The export from New Plymouth in tho way of live-stock was no doubt very considerable ; but of land-produce there was very little, and tho facilities which tho place had for shipping live-stock to Auckland were as great as existed in any other part of New Zealand. lie would now go on to describe what to him appeared a very unjust proposal in this Bill. The honourable member for Egmont and the honourable member for Taranaki were to be complimented on the [very pleasant way in which they opposed each other. They were as bitterly opposed to one another on this question as any two members could possibly be, and yet they had displayed a most commendable amount Jof consideration each other. However, he was now going to endeavour to show that the? honourablo member for Egmont made out an extremely bad case. That honourable member told tho Committee that ho was placed in an extremely,. unpleasant [position, because he was sure to offend either ono part of his district or another, and then the honourable gentleman, only a few minutes ago, said to the House that he had to draw the lino somewhere with regard to the rating limits. They found that the honourable gentleman had drawn that line at a point a little north of Opunake, excluding a largo] and influential portion of his own constituency — excluding a most magnificent portion of Ins electorate — property which at no distant period fetched £14 and £15 an acre at public auction, when tho deferred-payment land was eagerly bought up ; and which, from personal knowledge, he could say was tho most magnificent grazing land in tho colony. He had as much knowledge of this land as any man in tho j colony, having lived within a few miles of it for a considerable number of years ; and, knowing every tree and stone in it, ho could say that the honourablo gentleman had excluded a district which, if any portion of that part of the colony was capable of bearing taxation, was tho part. Ho would support the Bill if tho honourable gentleman in charge of it would exclude from tho rating area the whole of tho property to tho north of tho Waiwakaioßivcr. Ho was satisfied that botli the honourablo member for Egmont and the honourable member for Now Plymouth were convinced in their own minds, if they dare admit it, that tho whole of tho settlement north of tho Waiwakaio had just as much right to exemption from tho rating area as tho Waimate Plains. Major ATKINSON.— I do not admit that at all. Mr. IIURSTIIOUSE.— WeII, some honourable gentlemen would not admit even the truth. It was admitted before the Committeo that nearly the whole of the produce from tho district north of the Waiwakaio River was exported from tho Port of Waitara, that twothirds of the goods consumed by the settlers there were imported into the Port of Waitara, and, further than that, that a large proportion of tho coals used in Now Plymouth wero imported into Waitara. And yet thoso pooplo living north of tho Waiwakaio, who would derive very little benefit from tho New Plymouth Harbour, wore to bo taxed with a tax extremely hard to bear ; whilst the settlors on tho Waimate Plains, who would derive a great benefit, wero to go fioe of taxation, and for no other reason than that this was tho particular point at which the honourable member for Egmont had determined to draw the line of tho rating district. But ho appealed to tho honourable member's senso of justico and fairness whether it was right to tax the settlers north of Waitara,

and to exclude those on tho Waimato PlainsWaitara Township ha<l been caiefullv excluded! for what purpose h\d not boon shown. Major ATKIXSON.— Put it in. Mr. HUriSTIIOUSE would like to put it in, but he knew tho honourablo members for New Plymouth and Egmont wanted to carry tho Bill as it was. Ho would put in the Borough of Haw era and half the distiict between thoro and Patca— say, all to tho noith of tho Maniatoto Stream. That would bo a fair rating area, and with that lie would suppoit the Bill : and ho would do s-o if tho district north of the Waiwakaio was excluded. Major ATKINSON.— Try it in Committee. Mr. IIURsriIOUSE was too old a bird to bo caught by chaff. This Bill should not go through without full discussion and its various points being brought prominently before tho House. The honourablo member, in moving the second reading, was extremely brief, for somo cause best known to himself, probably anticipating having to make a long speech in reply to the objections made. The honourablo gentleman led the House to behe\e that there was a prosperous trade between New Plymouth and Sydney — that the " Wakatipu " had been there, and that it was quite a common thing to ship goods direct. If that was the case, what more did they want? If the Union Company was now sending its intercolonial steamers to that far - famed place — " the garden of New Zealand " —ho was very happy indeed to hear it ; and he was told that seventeen hundred kegs of butter at ono time and fourteen bundled at another timo had been shipped by this fast and favourite vessel. That was a step m the ripfht direction ; and, having attained that, he would recommend his honourable friends to hold their hands and stay pioceedmgs for a time. If the Bill did not pass, what happened ? Even then New Plymouth would be in a bettor position than ever before. They had a port at which ver«s big steamers could call. He thought it would be better for tho Taranaki people, instead of going on with this proposal, to buy a steamer of the size of the " Penguin " or " Hawea," which could como into the port in all ordinary weather, and lay it on for Sydney themselves. That would bo better than submitting to this extraordinary proposed taxation. That was a reasonable proposition, which ho commended to tho consideration of the honourable member for New Plymouth. Probably £30,000 would buy a steamer that would take all the export to Sydney. The principal exports were butter and what what was termed " Taranaki wool " — that was, fungus, — and there was a prospective export of carrots. He believed the Harbour Board had some £13,000 in hand, and that would enable them to do a good deal more. As to constructing a jetty inside the breakwater, ho believed it was very necessary — he believed it was so necessary that he would assist to provide it, even if that House was asked to vote the money ; and, after the commendable determination the people there had shown in this matter, he thought it would not be unreasonable for the House to vote £9,000 for a jetty. The Board could then utilize its £48,000 in continuing the breakwater, and he believed, with the very skilful administration of later years, that sum would complete it to such a point that all tho steamers necessary for tho trade of tho district could go thoro in all weathers. Then, the honourable member for New Plymouth said that he was only asking that the ratepayers should bo allowed to decide on the taxation proposals ; but many of the most populous parts of tho district were excluded from the rating district : and ho believed it had been shown in evidence that, consequently, the Town of New Plymouth alone would exercise half tho total voting power, and that, whilst 99 per cent, of the total votes would be recorded in that town, in tho country not more than 50 per cent, of tho votes would bo given, owing to tho inability of many people to get to the poll. All who knew Taranaki knew that in somo parts they had not good roads. Now, tho evidenco before tho Committee showed that if this Bill were passed tho whole of tho rating allowed by tho Act of 1877 and by this Bill must be levied at no distant day. The Land Fund was decreasing year by year, the ordinary harbour revenue was not increasing but rather decreasing, and hence, at an early period, the whole of tho rating would have to be raised to enable the Board to meet its liabilities. His calculations showed him that, with the whole of tho rating allowed by the former Act and this Bill, and with all tho other revenue of the Board from every source, they would have a substantial deficiency of £2,800 a year ; and he warned tho House that, if this Bill was passed, within four or five years of the completion of the works the Board would be insolvent, and the country would be called on to take over its liabilities, or the Board would have to repudiate its debt. In reference to silting, the honourable member for Egmont had quoted the evidence of the Engineer-in-Chief and other exports to show that there was no probability of the harbour silting-up; but Mr. Macgregor, the consulting engineer to the Board, recommended them to begin dredging at once. Whether this dredging was to deepen tho harbour or to roinovo tho sand which had accumulated inside was perhaps not mado so clear as it might be. But the Engineer-in-Chief only gave his own opinion that tho harbour would not bo affected by the sand ; but in the calculations of the Board there was no allowanco whatever for such a contingency as dredging; so, putting it in the most favourable light possible, and assuming that no dredging would bo required, he found that tho revenue would bo £2,500 a year less than tho expenditure with the full rating power exercised. A somewhat strange statement had been made by tho honourable member for Egmont, to the effect that ho was in favour of tho rate bocauso ho boheved in high rating — ho liked it, in fact, becauso he had had to submit to it for a number of years. Tho honourablo member pointed |out that thoro was no Land Fund there to mako roads ; but tho Taranaki people could not have their cako and eat it too. They had 25 per cent, of tho gross — not net — land revenue for the harbour, and therefore they could not havo it to make roads. But tho Taranakians had dono better than that, for, while they had got tho Land Fund to make a harbour, they had got the colony to mako their roads. Tho colony mado what was called " the Mountain Rjad '' — in fact, the whole of tho roads, ho bolieved, from Waitotara to Pukearuhc, thirty miles north of New Plymouth — indeed, almost all the main arterial roads in tho district ; and the military mado a considerable proportion of them before that. Tho honourable member for Egmont therefore was not absolutely correct in saying they had no Land Fund to mako roads with — if they did not havo it in ono wav thov had it in another. There wero several other points ho would havo liked to touch upon ; but, as time pressed, ho would refrain. Tho hour of half-pnst fivoha\ing ariived, Mr. Si?EMv!:ii left tho chair.