"GERMAN" TALK.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume I, Issue 196, 23 September 1914, Page 11

"GERMAN" TALK.

DISPARAGING REMARKS.

TO MEMBER FOR AVON. DISORDER IN THE HOUSE. [From our own Parliamentary Reporter.] WELLINGTON, September 22. The House of Representatives was thrown into a heated discussion this afternoon when the Attorney-General (Hon. A. L. Herdman) referred to the member for Avon (Mr G. W. Russell) in terms which caused the latter to enter an emphatic protest. The incident arose when -Mr Russell strongly criticised the Government for its ineptitude to deal with the war risks question. The, Attorney-General, in reply ,- characterised Mr Russell's speech . as malignant, irrelevant, and full of party. It was evident that in the innermost recesses of his heart the member for Avon would sooner see the Germans overrun Europe than the present Government remain on the Treasury benches. Mi Russell drew the attention of the Speaker to these words. "They are a most outrageous attack on my loyalty and my honour," said Mr Russell, "and I ask you to protect me.'' Mr Speaker: That is a personal explanation, and not a matter for a point of order.

Mr Russell: Under the circumstances, sir, when the words are so outrageous, may I not call immediate attention to them?"

Mr Speaker: Will the Minister explain what he-paid. J Mr Herdman: I said, sir, judging from the extraordinary expression of views which we Rave had from the member for Avon, that in the innermost recesses op his heart, he would no doubt sooner see the Germans overrun Europe than see the present party remain on the Treasury benches. That is my personal opinion.

Mr Russell: Well, sir, I move that the words be taken down.

v The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House that the words be taken down?

Members here gave a fairly loud chorus of "ayes," and the clerk of the House proceeded to enter up the words officially. The Prime Minister, who had not been present for some minutes, then entered the chamber.

The .Speaker .intimated that it was usual in these cases for the Leader of the House to move as to what course should be pursued.

EXTRAORDINARY POSITION. "It is a most extraordinary position," said Mr Massey. "I was not in the House at the time, but I think it is ridiculous. Has the House actually assented to the words being taken down?"

Mr Speaker: Yes.' I followed the usual course, and asked for the pleasure of the House, and it was given. An Opposition member (to the Prime Minister): You should have been in your place. k Mr Massey: Under the circumstances I must move that no further action be taken.

Mr Eussell said it was a nice thing for the Prime Minister, who had not been in his place when the War Risks Bill, which was a most important measure, was being considered, to come into t\)e House smiling and treat the Minister's statement as a joke. The words used were an outrageous attack on him. It was a blackguardly statement to make. (Loud cries of protest.) At the direction of the Speaker, Mr Russell withdrew the words. He then went on to say that no member of the IGovernmerit had any right to make such a statement about him, and thus brand himself and his children for all time. He challenged the Minister to repeat the statement outside.

Mr Herdman: Would you say outside what you said a moment ago! Mr Russell: I never questioned the hon. gentleman's patriotism, but I did challenge Ms ability, as I have every, right to do. The statement regarding me was the foulest ever made regarding any member of this House. (Hear, hear.) When it was made, the Minister of Railways was sitting in his place, smiling, and shortly afterwards the Prime Minister came in with a smile and a grin on his face. Mr Massey: Oh, I protest against this. Mr G. W. Forbes (Hurunui): It is quite true, quite true! (Disorder.) CAUTION ADVISED. The Speaker: I hope members will say nothing they will be sorry for afterwards. Mr Russell said it was quite true that he wished to see the Ministry turned, out of office. He thought it was a blot on the history 'of the He had very good reasons for thinking so, and he would bring them forward at the proper time. Mr A. M; Myers (Auckland East) expressed regret that such an incident had occurred. Surely the incident could be closed in the best way by the Attor-ney-General withdrawing his statement, and expressing his regret. Mr Massey: Was there any provocation for it? Mr Herdman: Of course there was. (Loud Opposition dissent.) Mr Myers said that the Minister had every right to say that the member for Avon might think in his own heart that the Government should be turned out of office, but he stepped over the bounds when he brought in the German allusion. (Hear, hear.) Mr G. W. Forbes (Hurunui) said that a very serious statement had been made against an hon. member, and the Prime Minister treated it as a joke. Mr Massey: That is not. so.

Mr Forbes: There is no use your saying that. When the words were repeated to him he said, "I do not think they are out of order." Is that his conception of decency? They would be out of 'order if they were said in the street. The Prime Minister forgets that he is. more than the leader of the Reform Party, and everything he does is for party gain. (Great disorder.) The Government, Mr Forbes continued, had forced them into an election, knowing that the Opposition was on weak ground. As soon as a member of the Opposition uttered a word against the Government, his loyalty Avas impugned. Patriotism was not a preserve of the Government. He sympathised heartily with Mr Russell's resentment. That the division bell had not rung once since the war started was a sufficient proof that the Opposition had maintained the party truce. The whole trouble arose because the Government was angry that there should be such a vigorous critic of their policy as Mr Russell,

The Hon. I>. Buddo was proceeding to show that Mr Russell had done as much as any other member to maintain the trace, when he was interrupted by the dinner adjournment. PR IM EM IN ISTEIT J N TER VEN ES. When the House resumed in the evening the "Prime Minister (Hon. W. F. Ma.ss.ey).,. iiiafle reference to the "regrettable incident" which had occurred during the afternoon. '' 1 want to make a suggestion," he said. "I was out of the House during the latter part of the afternoon, listening to a deputation, and attending to other business, of which members will not seek to know the details. When I came back I found about one-third of the members very angry, and the other third greatly interested. I was told that one hon. gentleman had made a statement, which had been found objectionable by the hon. gentleman to whom it had been addressed. It had been moved that the words be taken down, and the motion was carried without a division. The member who made the statement was not asked to withdraw his words, and had no opportunity of withdrawing, and I suggest that the w*6rds were not Tut tended to be taken seriously. (Lpiid Opposition dissent.) lam not apologising for the Minister who made' the statement, but Ido hot think that the words should have been taken seriously; When I was sitting where the hon. gentleman on the other side now is I was told that we would sell our souls to get into power. Mr Russell: You said that about me. Mr Massey: It was only a quotation. (Loud laughter.) Mr Russell: You said it twice. Mr Massey: But I never asked that the words be taken down. Sir Joseph you used to get wild. <' BURY THE HATCHET!'' . Mr Massey: In this case I never heard either of the speeches, so I think I can take an impartial view. I think that I both the hon. members were to blame. Hon. A. L. Herdman:. That is wrong. I Mr Massey: Wait a mimite. I have ; said things invself I have been sorry for. Mr Herdman: I was not to blame. Mr Massey: Both hon. members had -better'bury the hatchet. We ■ are on the eve of the greatest event in the hisitory of the Dominion. I don't know ■;when the troops are going away, ; but this is no time for bickering and recriminations. I say this in good faith, | because I have been in the same place as the Minister.

Mr Russell: Why didn't he withdraw? -

Mr Massey: 'Well, I suggest that both members should withdraw, and express regret. LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION.

Sir Joseph Ward said he wasliot in the House that afternoon when the very regrettable] incident referred to by the Prime Minister, took place. As one who had been engaged Jin party conflict all his life, and as one who very seldom lost his temper—(Ministerial laughter) ..—he like to say a word. He hardly ever made a very strong statement unless it was necessary, and only once or twice during his parliamentary career had he been asked to withdraw an expression. When he had been asked to do so he did so at once. He would suggest that a reflection having been made, and having a personal application,' the best way out of the difficulty was to have it.withdrawn, so that the resolution could be wiped off the records of the House, and the incident forgotten. If the statement made concerning Mr Russell had been made about any other hon. member he would naturally feel aggrieved, and very properly so. (Hear, hear.) Mr Russell wasii highly respected man. He had been in this country for the best part ,of a lifetime and had brought up a large family. He carried out his duties jas a public man to the utmost of his ability and discharged what was required of him, as an opponent of the Administration, by forcible criticism. It was true that he never made any reflections upon the personal character or reputation of any individual member. (Cheers.) If the Attorney-General had made a statement in the heat of debate Avhieh he knew had no application Mr Massey: It was simply a figure of speech. "IMMORTAL SOULS.": Sir Joseph Ward: But a figure of speech in cold print sometimes, looks bad. The statement about the Prime Minister's soul was all right, because the member who made it considered that he had no soul. If he (Sir Joseph) was accused of selling, his immortal soul he would take no notice of the remarks. He did not know whether he had a soul or not; that was a-figure of speech, but the Attorney-General took a very big risk in what he said. Mr Massey: You never heard such an attack as was made on him. Sir Joseph Ward said he thought that the Prime Minister was out of order in moving the resolution. The AttorneyGeneral should have been given an opportunity of withdrawing his words, and that gentleman would no doubt now see the propriety of doing so. MR SPEAKER WAS ENGAGED.

The Speaker explained, that he happened to be speaking to an officer, ,of the House, and did not hear the words used. When they were repeated.afterwards he did not place a serious construction ou tkem. He looked upon the expression as a figure of speech> : and as an exaggeration, to show that in the opinion of the Attorney-General the hon. member for Avon was anxious to displace the Government. He did no.t take the words seriously at the time, nor did Mr Hindmarsh. Had he thought that the Attorney-General meant what the member for Avon supposed, he certainly would have ordered the withdrawal of the words. While he was speaking on the question, the member for Avon moved that the words be taken /down, and he (the Speaker) had no option but to put the motion under the Standing Orders. The position was one much to be regretted, and an opportunity should certainly be given for the "withdrawal of the words; MR HERDMAN WITHDRAWS.

The Hon. A. L. Herdman: Well, Mr Speaker, I have no desire to keep up |this unfortunate question any longer, and I withdraw the words. (Cheers.) I wish it to be clearly understood that the speech made by the hoii. member for Avon was highly provoking, and I admit frankly and freely that when I was speaking on the second reading of the Bill I spoke with a considerable amount of heat and feeling. I quite recognise what the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition have said, and, in order that this unpleasantness should come to an end, I withdraw the words.

Mr Russell: I wish to say that I cheerfully and unreservedly accept the withdrawal made by the Attorney-General. I would like to say that I did make a speech that was intended to be a vigorous speech from an opposition point of view in regard to the Bill, but I made no reflection whatever personally upon

the honourable gentleman. I reflected ; on the Attorneys-General -\s. ability, but not .on his character or loyalty; ■ I do not mind what; expressions are used regarding my ability or my honesty of purpose. These-are matters the country can judge of, but the honourable gentleman charged me with being malevolent and malignant, and then he used' the hardest words that can be used-regard-ing a man, when he said he believed that in the innermost recesses of my heart I would sooner see the Germans overrun Europe than that the present Government should remain on the Treasury Benches. That is what I objected to. I congratulate him now on the manly and honourable manner in which he has withdrawn the words. I accept the withdrawal cheerfully, and without the slightest hesitation. If I had been guilty of any attack on his character or integ-rity-it would have been a different matter, but the Prime Minister will agree that it is no offence to attack the ability of an honourable gentleman. At the instance of the Speaker, resolutions were then passed that the At-torney-General should have leave to withdraw the words, and that no further action be taken.