THE EDUCATION BILL.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume I, Issue 138, 17 July 1914, Page 7

THE EDUCATION BILL.

A MASTERLY MEASURE. APPLAUDED BY THE OPPOSITION, STATE FIRE INSURANCE. [From our own Parliamentary Reporter.!; " '„* WELLINGTON, July 16.- ; The House has at last settled down to work in real earnest, and, although ' , the session is as yet only in its infancy, '.v already the great policy measures of the Government are beginning to -make their appearance. The first of them was before the House this evening when the Hon. Jas. Allen's Education -Bill ' w was brought down by Governor's Mes-- '- sage, and read a first time. - •■- The appearance of the measure corneas a considerable surprise, but the Bill * was none the less made welcome. - It is certainly a "revolutionary ■* and if it passes into law, as it almost .-< assuredly will, it will completely trans?-- ',*■ form the whole education system-, of ; the Dominion. Prominent members of - -J the Opposition heartily congratulated the Minister on his able summing up of the-provisions of the Bill:' Hhf speech occupied just over an hour. and,a-cpiar- ' - ter, and was a masterly, explanation, of one of the most important measures ~j whieh Parliament has been called ~iipon to consider for many a day.-- •«■. <- ! u j-g The afternoon sitting was devoted to ;,.-*•<£ a long discussion on the annual- report - .„"-* of the State Fire Insurance Depart-- „*£j ment, tabled' by, the Hon. F. V M,> B. '- Fisher. The chief burden of the. Opposition complaint was that the GoVjern- / --;-i jttenthad: not made it compulsory for" . [ people who had borrowed money the State Advances Departmenktd; ia- ' £ sure their property in the Government office. In this contention they were * heartily supported by one Government ? member, Mr A. Harris (Waitemata), ;| The feature of the discussion was a very spirited clash between Mr Hind- -~ marsh and the Prime Minister on the subject of the Government's method-osL.v:|jJ acquiring estates for closer The member for, Wellington South' re- :% peated his old charge that the Govern- ~> ment favours its friendv an* supporters v * when lands are being purchased. Mr Massey's reply was nothing if not'Vigofouß and effective. The charge was not only refuted, it was "blown out of the water.'' ' . After the, Education Bill had ;- been put to rest for the- even- a, ing, Mr Hanan got the opportunity, for which he had been waiting all day, -;:■ to propose the first reading of his Bill k for the abolition" of party Government. The measure is an interesting one, but t ? it was'overshadowed by the big Bui \; which preceded it. A of the - Bill has already appeared m THE SUJN. IMPOBTANT CHANGES PROPOSEX*. , vj IProm our own Parliamentary Beporter.j; \ % £ WELLINGTON, July 16. ~ * % The most important measure. intro- : r' duced so far this session is the Educa? tion Bill, which was brought ; dowji by ,y t Governor's Message .this evening- : -',4 Mr Wilford (Hutt) asked, in view ef t :?- their being no Superannuation ,BiH this - year, whether the Minister would include in the Bill a clause dealing with the three year period over which the present superannuation was based. Mr Allen said he hoped to see this included in next year's EducationJJill. The main proposals in the measure were sufficiently important for him to explain them to the House. Certain re- c. commendations of the BoyarCommission . on Education and of the Education ->* Committee had been adopted. ; -"^ COUNCIL OF EDUCATION 4: The most important proposal In the *e£ Bill was /the setting up of a Couseit of Education. In this he had.not the commission, nor the cpmmittee.. It had seemed to him that both" secondary"- 33 and primary women teachers shouid bft.-v-Jl represented on the council. cil would be constituted as followsc — a% The Director of Education, who shall tie, chairman; the Assistant Director of Education, who shall be chairman in the r "- absence of the director; one other officer ~ of the Education Department appointed ,- '- by the Minister; two members elected by the members of the Education Boards in the North Island; and two members elected by the members of the Education Boards in the South Island; - - cue member, elected by certificated male _** teachers of public schools in the NorthInland, and and one member elected by certificated male teachers of publie schools in the South Island; one member, elected by the male teachers in secondary and technical schools; one , < member,, elected by certificated women, teachers of public schools in theJCorth -- island, one member elected by certificat- *-* ed women teachers of publie schools in - - the South Island; one member, elected by the women teachers of secondary' and 7 '-■ technical' schools; one member of the \ University of New Zealand, appointed '">! by the Senate; and three members "ap- \-. pointed by the Minister, namely, two to --"' represent industrial interests (on of ~ ; - whom shall represent agriculture), and - '.(*> one (a woman) to represent the inter- " '$ ests of -the>vMcation of girls. There' ?' would be council, which would be* ? *&s^^ ( a l i3visory body. The members would j_ salary. DISTRICT COUNCILS. - ' There was another departure. The council would meet once a year, but there would be occasions when district matters had to be attended to. For this purpose he proposed to ask the House to set up from time to time district councils, which would consist of five members. These would consist of the Director of Education, one representative of the Education Board, one ■representative' of the teasers, the «Miior school inspector of the district, - - and one or more representatives apI pointed bv the Minister. Au hon. member: Would those be set iir- temporarily? "The Minister: They would be appointed from time to time as they wore required to deal with matters pertaining - to a district. In answer to another question the Minister explained that the Director of Education would be the pre- r sent "Inspector-General of Schools, \he latter position was to be done away with, and a Directorship of Education and Assistant-Directorship set up to cor-respond-with the Inspector-Generalship and Assistant Inspector-Generalship as at present. DISTRICTS TO BE ENLARGED. The commission represented that the . . « urban areas should be divided into four <.£

,?v or five education districts, and the countiy into eight or nine. Under existing conditions it was almost impossible for a teacher in some districts, especially .the West Coast of the South Island, to . find a career, and it was in order that a teacher might have an opportunity of further advancement and satisfying his ambitions for progress that the dis- " triets were made larger. The change "'"■ would also probably lead to economy. It was a difficult problem to divide up the country. He had made certain divisions in the Bill which would be referred to the Education Committee. THE EDUCATION BOARDS. - An alteration was made in the constitution of the boards. Now the boards » were elected by the school committees. Ihere had been a good deal of dissatisfaction in some-places with the present ; method of election; some districts fancied that the suburban areas had too much representation and power, and [" , seme imagined the same with regard,to " the urban areas. It was proposed to » '. tave two or three processes of election. " It was proposed, to divide" the country ''into urban and suburban districts. Boroughs of ~8000 and neighbouring parts -would be included in an urban district, . irad would form a permanent ward, having power to elect to the Education "" Board two members £or every 60,000. " For the suburban areas the system of j 'ward would continue, and it was pro- ** posed to divide them into three and .give tfiem a representation of two mem- _• bers; that would mean six members for the suburban areas, and for the urban . districts, so*far as the present popula<j ' fion was concerned,.there would be more J than four, some having six. The Educa- ; -tion Boards tvould be elected as they * ' ■yvere'now, but power was given to allow ,-.urban areas,, if they so desired, to join .together in-one urban school district. *lf they did, it was proposed that the bchool committee should be elected upon ' fhe municipal franchise, and, in that ' . case, the Education Board also. , FUNDS. -".« There was to be an improved method -of keeping accounts, a special classification being necessary in regard to building, funds, etc. The. funds to be sup'tl. plied to education boards would depend »/ to a large extent on.whether they agree £ the suggestion with regard to inspec- •- ( "tors. The inspectors were to be brought 'into closer touch with the national headi Hon. members might say 5 .that meant centralisation, but it left ]' , them to do the work they were now '\ -."doing, and they would be paid by the 'Crown and classified by the Crown, if ' .the inspectors were taken over by the r" -Crown the Education Board would, be *•""» 'relieved of an expenditure of about f ~£2%QOQ a year. It was proposed to .„ ' 'deprive the boards of the whole of that ; ;f20,000. Instead of paying the boards '' the sum of 12/- per; head, the Government would give;thein 11/-. That left \ "them with an -excess of''£tCT,o'oo: With it was proposed .that they would; V* pay oveii to the committees, on the (\ '' average, an extra 64% per head, which '\ <"3nrould mean approximately £4OOO. Another portion of the/: £IO,OOO would be : -devoted to the very,'impdrtant work of t . drainage and sanitation. The boards '- would be granted £SOOO a year to carry - put this work. This, with the-£4OOO f 'to be devoted to the committees, made \ S9OOO, leaving £IOOO which would be de^ ], ' toother purposes. C- , TO BENEFIT THE TEACHERS. -~ '. The Bill contained many proposals : - 'for the improvement of. the lot. of the -■t ieachers. (Hear; hear.) It was pro,jjosed to assist them, after they had spent some time in the service, to travel, '." ( and so''gain wider experience. Special g; ," Schools would be provided for backward t~ ' Children, and model schools, and trairij&> .' ing schools would be established, so jf shat teachers with insufficient training fp. Should have-thW opportunity of "brush%i. Ibg up" and becoming thoroughly effi? |fe. &ent. Provision was also made for the. W*/ t*stablishmeHt of kindergarten;schools*. K , :i" SCHOLARSHIPS. Ilk' - n The-question of scholarships had also, Wi fceceived attention. In dealing with §p v |his problem he had Keen guided by the pC of the Educational Inm- dkitute, the inspectors and others, M »$ a Tesult, the system had been greatly f&' Amplified. There was nothing in the £,' fiill dealing with scholarships of the t\ TTniversity of New Zealand. These % ' irould be fully dealt with in a UniverU ■ «ty Senate Bill to be brought down at §£, iffcannflirr time. F- / TECHNICAL EDUCATION.

& The matter of technical education was also fully dealt with in the Bill, and a very important change had been made in the monetary, provision for «ich schools. Schools had been granted O- capitation on their class attendance, / -varying according to classification, from '-. isd to 9d*per pupil. It was found / tfcat the 9d was very rarely required, £ *rhile the 14d was often insufficient. He uL ijwrefore proposed that the minimum £\ ,- jrturald be raised from ljd to 2d, and ?--'' tte maximum decreased from 9d to Bd. | : . "- £his would put the smaller and poorer *■' . Khools in a much better position.. p" SYSTEM-OP INSPECTOR'S. % , -He now came, the Minister continued, iv to the vexed question of inspectors. No £"'• doubt there would be a good deal of dif- £ ferenee of opinion regarding the pro-.- '*~ posals made in the Bill with regard to ibis question. It was proposed to bring A the inspectors into closer touch with the Department. (Hear hear.) The I changes were very important indeed, $ and no doubt the House would like to know his reasons for adopting them. ~ He was at first averse to making the l~ changes he now proposed, but the %. " arguments in favour of them were i P'§i so strong that he had no course Wf' but to adopt them. The first reason §&>.•* was that there would be great Bf saving; so great, indeed, that he hoped WL to be able to provide the proposed in-BgkC/crjeases-in'the inspectors' salaries withany increased cost. (Hear, hear.) "" }~&t present some of the inspectors work'v ed under the various boards and some «&, , under the Department. This was very fc" unsatisfactory and led to a great deal of unnecessary overlapping. (Hear, §f£'\ hoar.). Under the new system this fjp- . would be quite obviated. Another ggf~' .argument in favour of bringing the K£'.' Whole of the inspectors under one conEf'- trol.was the necessity for the adoption PT ', 0 f a uniform standard throughout the fh : Dominion for efficiency and competency F* and'certificates. One of the first diffi- '{ >' culties he had met with when he took fy - office was the great difference in the f ' standard set by;the inspectors in different districts. Of eowrse; it was only ~~ natural that some of the inspectors 1 , anxious for the reputation of their distiicts, should issue a large number of certificates, and the result had been that. boys and girls were being put up to the *■ secondary schools who were not fit to receive training. In some districts too niany certificates had been issued. So long as the inspectors were working under the boards it would be impossible to get this uniform standard, which was £ M urgently needed. % TEACHERS' SALARIES, : Then there was the question of a DoSl minion scale of salaries for teachers, P» which also depended on the change of \t the inspectorial system. Before they Mold have a Dominion rale of salaries

they must have some means of grading the teachers on a uniform basis. This could not be done unless the inspectors were under one control, and measured all the teachers by the same standard. At present the Department was able to classify teachers with regard to certain attainments, but such qualifications as teaching efficiency, etc., could not be taken into account by the Departmc-nt until there was a uniform system of inspection. It would thus be seen that a number of large, important, and muchr.eeded reforms depended entirely on the making of a change in the inspection* system, ■■■■/■

TRANSFER OF TEACHERS. Another difficult problem was the transfer of teachers* from one district to anqther, and,yet another was the reduction of salaries simultaneously with a reduction of grade. Last year the period over which attendances were taken before a teacher's salary could be reduced was increased from two years to three years, but he had not thought that sufficient. (Hear, hear.) The Bill now proposed to reduce no teacher's salary on the ground of a reduction in grade, unless he refused to accept a transfer to another school. (Applause.) He did not propose that the Education Department should take over the transfer Expenses of the teachers; that would be left to the boards. PROVIDING NEW SCHOOLS. For many years past it had been left to an officer in the lands or some other department, to say whether a new school in a certain district was required. That was not right. If the inspectors were centralised the Department would obtain unbiased reports as to the needs of a district, for they would not be at the mercy of the boards. The Minister added that he had gone fairly fully into the reasons for the centralisation of the system of inspection, 'and he hoped that they would commend themselves to the House. (Hear, hear.) FINANCIAL QUESTION.

Coming to technical 'education, the • Minister said that the Bill provided for the *teac,hers in technical'schools to come under /the Appeal Board, a privilege which they did not now* have. He proposed to ask in this Bill to provide for voluntary contributions to primary,' secondary, and technical schools, and later on in the University Bill. The univer sities. contributions in money, land, apparatus, or material would be subsidised. Money, land, and apparatus would be subsidised £1 for £l, and in respect to bequests, the subsidy would be 10/- for £1 up to £SOO. * SALARIES. The salaries question was then explained by the Minister. They proposed to give an extra capitation to secondary schools, and as a quid\ pro quo, the Government was going to ask the boards of" governors of these schools to pay at least the minimum salaries contained in the bill. For instance, the principal of a male school should not be paid less than £4OO per year, and of a girls' school £300; and it was also proposed that no teacher in. a secondary school should receive less than £l5O per annum. The total salaries paid in any secondary school was not to be less than an average of £l2 10/- per head of the attendance. GRADING TEACHERS.

As for the salaries of public school teachers, the Minister went on to say that these were to be increased by £lO, £2O, £3O, and in some cases by £4O per annum. He hoped that the proposals would have the support of members of the House. (Hear, hear.) In grade 1 the maximum salary would be £l4O instead of £l2O. There would be a proportionate increase of salaries in other grades. The salaries and grades of head teachers were in one part. of the schedule, and those of assistants in another part. The salaries of head teachers were increased to the extent of from £lO to £4O. In grade 7 there was an increase frond £4OO to £440. Provision was made for a gradual increase of staffs. It was proposed to put in assistants, instead off pupilteachers, as opportunities offered.

THE INSPECTOES. There were to be from two to five chief inspectors, their salaries ranging from £565 to £625. For the time being there would be also assistant inspectors, starting at £365 and going up to £435. There were to be special inspectors for special work> like agriculture and things of that kind. Some of the inspectors would be women.

OTHER PROVISIONS. So far as secondary schools were concerned, the increased capitation would amount to £7OOO. Liberal provision would be made with regard to libraries, which would have to be subsidised by the boards. ;Last year's Bill cost £29,000; even increments and salaries cost £12,000. The raising of the minimum salaries meant.over £2OOO, and the increase of salaries of secondary assistants at high schools meant £2220, allowances- to probationers £I6OO, and so on. The Act of 1913, when in full operation, meant" an increased cost of £4ljooo. Under the Bill of this year, when it came into full operation, the extra expenditure would be £62,000; the total under the two Acts and the present Bill would be £150,000. He had spared no pains in preparing the Bill, and he wished to recognise the monumental work that had been done by officers of the Department. Every detail had been studied, and he hoped that the House would put the Bill on the Statute Book. The Minister was loudly applaudedjm concluding his speech.

THE DISCUSSION. NOT A PARTY MEASURE. Mr G. W. Russell (Avon) said that the measure was entitled to be considered apart from party lines. The first thing that struck him was that the scheme meant embarking on a system of centralisation. He agreed with the reduction of the school districts from 13 to 9. They were too small at present, and in "the future it might be found necessary to enlarge them still further. It seemed, however, a pity that the counties were to have a small modicum: of consideration. Considering the benefits sought to be obtained £150,000 extra expenditure was not out of the way, but it was to be regretted that the Minister had not seen his way to have a Dominion scale of salaries for the teachers. The Bill should not be hurried, and an. analysis should be prepared explaining exactly the changes to be made. Teachers were not properly paid at present, as was- shown by the fact that there were 3027 women teachers to 1717 men. THE BILL COMMENDED. Mr J. A. Hanan (Invercargill) said he welcomed the Bill, inasmuch as it contained reforms which he had advocated for some time. The one feature which he welcomed particularly was that the Dominion was to have a national system of grading of teachers. It was curious to see how the progress of time brought changes. Some years

ago he had supported a Bill brought in by a private member which provided for the centralisation of the inspectors. That was thrown out by a large majority. He was glad to see that the Minister had come round to his way of thinking in this matter. The Minister was going to have some trouble in reducing the number of education boards from 13 to 9, but the whole of education must be looked at from a broad, national point of view. He hoped that all members of the House would rise to the occasion aud assist in this direction. (Hear, hear.) A FEW QUESTIONS.

Mr T. H. Davey (Chriatchuxch East) asked the Minister whether a child in a Catholic school, who gained a scholarship, could not be permitted to go on with his or her education at the ordinary secondary schools. In reply to Mr McCallum, the Minister explained that the Nelson and Marlborough districts were combined to form the Nelson district, and the Grey and Westland districts were included in Canterbury. The Bill was read a first time at 9.25 p.m.

SOME OF THE PROVISIONS. THE SCALE OF SALARltife. In addition to the changes outlined in the Minister's speech, the Bill contains the following interesting particulars: —The education boards are to be. reduced from 13, to 9, resulting in the abolition of the Marlborough,.Grey, Westland and Wanganui boards. • The following will be the new education districts: — North Auckland (chief town, Auckland). Waikato (chief town, Hamilton). Egmont (chief town, Wanganui). Wellington (chief town, Wellington). Hawke's Bay (chief town, Napier). Nelson (including the counties of Sounds, Marlborough, Awatere, Kaikoura, Collingwood, Takaka, Waimea, Buller, Murchison, and Inangahua, and including all boroughs and town districts therein (chief town, Nelson). Canterbury (being the counties of Grey, Westland, Amuri, Cheviot, Waipara, Tawera, Ashley, Kowai, Rangiora, Oxford, Eyre, Malvern, Paparua, Halswell; Akaroa, Wairiwa, Waimairi, Heathcote, Mount Herbert, Springs, Ellesmere, Selwyn, Ashburton, Geraldine, Levels, Mackenzie, and Chatham Islands, including all boroughs and town districts therein (chief town, Christchurch). Otago (being the counties of Waimate, Vincent, Waitaki, Waihemo, Waikouaiti, Taieri, Tuapeka, Bruce, Peninsula, and Maniototo, including all boroughs and town districts therein (chief town, Dunedin). Southland (being the counties of Clutha, Lake Fiord, Wallace, Southland, Stewart Island, including all borough and town districts" therein (chief town, Invercargill). INSPECTOR'S CONDITIONS. The salaries and conditions of the school inspectors under the Bill are much improved. The following grades under the centralisation idea are provided: — Minimum Maximum Grade. salary. salary. Chief inspector . . £565 .. £625 Senior inspector . . 49.0 .. 550 Inspector . . «... 440 .. 485 Assistant inspector 365 .. 425

The following grade numbers are proposed:—(a) There shall be not less than two, nor more than five chief inspectors; (b) there shall be not less than, nine nor .more than fifteen' senior inspectors, o#e of whom, shall be resident in each education district;, (c) the number of other inspectors shall be as the Governor may see fit; (d) some of the inspectors shall be women. An annual increment of ; £ls is proposed for inspectors of all grades. ELECTION OF EDUCATION BOARDS For the purpose of the election of members of education boards the education districts are divided into: (1) rural and urban areas; (2) urban school districts. In the case of the firstnamed the election is to be by members of the schools committees in the education district. In the case of uiiban school districts, such as ihe big centres, the municipal franchise is to be adopted. . SALARIES. The following new grades of salaries" are struck under the Bill for primary school teachers: — Head Teachers. Annual Grade. Minimum. Maximum. Increment. I. .. . . £IOO .. £l4O .'. £lO II 140 .. 190 .. 10 111. .. 200 ... 250 .. 10 . IV. .. 260 . . 310 .. 10 V 320 .. 360 .. 10 VI. .. 370 .. 400 .. 10 VII. . . 410 . . 446 . . 10 Assistants. Annual Grade. Minimum. Maximum, increment. 1 .. . . £IOO .. £l2O .. £lO 2 . i .. 120 .. 140 .. 10 3 . . . . 150 .. 180 .. 10 4 . . . . 190 .. > 220 .. 10 -.5 . . . . 230 . . 250 .. 10 6 . . . . 260 . . 280 . . 10 7 ~ . . 290 .. 310 .. 10

STATE FIRE INSURANCE. A PROSPEROUS YEAR. * GOVERNMENT'S POLICY CRITICISED. [From our own Parliamentary Reporter.] WELLINGTON, 'July 16. The afternoon sitting of the House to-day was entirely devoted to a long discussion on the working of the State Fire Insurance Department. The annual report of the manager of the Department was tabled by the Hon. F. M. B. fisher, and the discussion arose on his motion that it be printed. The report shows considerable progress in the business of the office. The year 1913 (the ninth since the establishment of the office) had been the most successful in the history of the Department. The net profits, after appropriating a further sum of £2014 9/6 to the reserve for unearned premiums, amounted to £15,443 10/2, as against £14,023 12/9 for 1912. The total accumulated profit at the end of the year was £41,904, and the net income, including interest on investments, was £61,280 13/9 The net premiums income was £59,417 11/2, as against £54,380* 2/7 for 1912, an increase of £5037 8/7. The net losses were £27,975 3/3> as compared with £25,1,11 9/5 for 1912, the ratio to the premium income being 47.08 per cent, and 46.17' per cent, respectively. At the close of 1913 the reserve, funds amounted to £65,671 16/10, as against £48,213 7/2 for the previous year. The investments stood at the close of the year at £44,250, as compared with i, £87,000 for 1912, The office has now. [wiped off its balance-sheet all liabiii-

ties on the capital account, and is supported entirely by an excellent reserve fund, accumulated solely by its own efforts of over £65,600, The danger of ever calling upon the Government for assistance may. safely be said to be exceedingly remote. SEEKING INFORMATION. Mr T. M. Wilford (Hutt) said that earlier in the session he had placed a question on the Order. Paper asking whether payments other than salaries had beeu made to officers of the State Fire Department. The reply was that the payments had been authorised by the Minister-in-Charge. He now wanted to know the amount of these payments, and if it was not a fact that a sum of three figures had been paid to one officer. Would it not be better, if these officers were underpaid,-to increase their salaries than to pay them sums which Parliament knew nothing about, for they were not included in the Estimates. Mr T. H. Davey (Christchurch East) asked whether it was a fact that there txisted a compact between the State office and the other insurance companies. "STARVING" THE DEPARTMENT. Mr G. ■ V. Pearce (Patea>) * challenged a statement made by Mr Wilford at Hawera that the Hon. James Allen had deliberately tried to starve the Slate office in order to" bolster up the big insurance companies. He said that the farmers had summed Mr Wilford's staterr.eht up for what it was worth. Mr Wilford rose in personal explanation and said he had been misrepresented. He explained that he had read a notice of motion in his name on last year's Order Paper, which was never answered. It asked what amount of business had been lost to the State Fire Office through the Massey Government's change of policy regarding the business between that office and the Advances Department He had then quoted the* circulars issued by the Ward' and Massey Governments The first made it necessary for borrowers to insure with the State, Dut the MasseyGovernment. said that borrowers "may" insure in the State office. That had resulted in loss of business;-' He would stand to the statements he had 'made, because he had proved them and could do so again. ENCOURAGING THE COMPANIES.

Mr G.- Witty (.Riecarton), said that last session he asked the Minister for a return showing the number of people who had borrowed money from the State and who had not. insured with the State Department. He had never received this return, which showed that there were people in receipt of financial aid from the State who did not do their insurance business with the State. They should be compelled to do so, but the Government would not take this action. Why? Because their friends were connected with the big companies. (Loud Government laughter.) The Government was doing nothing to help the Department, but was playing into the hands of the .wealthy private companies. (Renewed laughter.) A CRUEL STEPFATHER. Mr G. Forbes (Hurunui), as one of the "flying squadron," defended the statements of himself and his colleagues to the effect that the business of the State Fire Insurance Department had suffered as a result of the Government's policy, and quoted figures in support of the contention. The action of the Minister of Finance resulted in the starving of such Departments as that under review, and if the, Minister had the welfare of the Department at heart he would do ihis best to increase its profits so that those doing business with it would get the benefit of reduced premiums. The Government could not be expected to foster Departments instituted by the Liberals. The fate of these Departments .reminded him of the handing over of a child to a cruel step-father. (Loud laughter.)

GIVE AND TAKE. Mr L. M. Isitt (Christchurch North) asserted that the statement that the business of the Department had been increased by the action of the Minister of Finance in making insurance with the Department optional instead of compulsory, was absurd. It had been stated that the business of the' Farmers' Mutual Insurance Association had suffered. What; had that to do with Parliament? Would the association lend money to struggling farmers as the State did? No. Well, if the State did so much for the farmers, why should the farmers not do so much in repayment of their obligation to the country. THE DEPARTMENT'S FUNCTIONS. Mr W. H. D. Bell (Wellington Suburbs) said that most of the previous speakers had missed the point. State Departments did not exist for the purpose of earning profits. The only excuse for State enterprise was to prevent the people from being' exploited by monopolies. He had agreed with the institution of the State' Fire Insurance Department at the time, because the rates were very'high, and had been kept high by the private companies operating in the Dominion. But surely it was not the object of the Department to cut rates until other offices had to go out of business. ' Mr J. Payne .(Grey Lynn) : Why not? Mr Bell: Because the insurance companies have as much right to live as the hon. gentleman, so long as they do not charge extortionate rates. The Department does not exist to kill the companies. . Mr Payne: Why not? Mr Bell: If• those are the hon. member's political morals I shall never be able to convince him. He went on to say that he had seen hundreds of insurances go through on properties' on which money had been borrowed and he did not remember a single case where there was any stipulation as to which opice insurance should be effected in. He was sure it was not the usual practice.

Mr Isitt: Yes it is. Mr Bell:. Well, I have never seen such a stipulation made. Mr Isitt: There might be no written stipulation," but the borrower is told. Mr Bell doubted it. If private companies did not need to be bolstered up in this way, he continued, there was no need for the State Department to be so bolstered up. He was not supporting private monopolies, but he was opposed to a State monopoly. ORIGIN OF THE OFFICE. Sir Joseph "Ward said that some members seemed to have forgotten the reasons for the origin of the State Office. One of the reasons was that fire rates were often fixed beyond New Zealand. He wanted to remind the House that on the establishment of the State Office the local companies 1 educed their premiums by 33 1-3 per cent. More than that, they decided not to accept reinsurances from the State Office, nor would they give insurance to it. Under such conditions, any other office but a State establishment would have gone down. The companies did their best to make the State Office unsuccessful, for they foreshadowed that if it were successful here it would probably be established in other countries. If the stipulation had not been made that borrowers from the State would insure in the

State, the State office would, in his opinion, have gone down. As- it was, it had. a death struggle for five or six years. It certainly would be unfair to insist upon borrowers from the State insuring in the State if they could get cheaper insurance elsewhere. From the time the State Office was established it had fought for as much business as it could get. He had never anticipated that the State Office would supersede the private offices. The State Fire Office had already saved the people of this country £1,500,000 in premiums. It would be better for the private companies to recognise the State Office as a-competing concern, and not one established to drive them out. Mr J. Payne (Grey Lynn) said that if by the investment of a few thousand pounds the State could get the profits i from a business now run \>j a private [monopoly it should have no hesitation. It was no scheme of confiscation. A GOVEENMENT MEMBER'S SUPPORT. Mr A. Harris (Waitemata) agreed with Opposition members in their denunciation of the policy of the Government in making it optional for mortgagors to give their fire insurance to outside offices. An hon. member: Be careful. Within the last two years, Mr Harris continued, the New Zealand Insurance Company refused to accept the cover of the SfSate Fire Office on a certain Auckland property. 4fc Mr T. Buxton (Temuka) supported the view that when the State was finding the money for a mortgage it should have the insurance business. '' POLITICAL. DISHONESTY.'» Mr A. H. Hindnrarsh (Wellington South) referred to the political dishonesty of the Minister of Finance. When the House complained last year about the treatment of the, State Itisufance Office he had the political opacity, to tell members that it was illUgal to have a provision compelling a mortgagor to insure with the State. He also hinted that he had an opinion to that effect. He (Mr Hindnrarsh) challenged him to produce the opinion", and he said he would do so later on. The Minister of Finance was guilty of an untrue statement. ' The Speaker: The hon. member must withdraw that statement. Mr Hihdmarsh: I will withdraw fi untrue statement,"'but the Minister was misleading the House. Perhaps I might impute it to his ignorance. .__ I wonder when'he was suffering from this ignorance he did not read the'opinion, which I don't believe he ever had. He certainly told this House that he could not insist upon this provision being inserted in- a mortgage deed. When the Minister of Finance does a thing like that I don't know what to say about the dignity of Parliament and the political honesty of the Government we are always hearing so much about.

OTHER SPEAKERS. Mr E. P. Lee (Oamaru) protested against the waste of time•■ which occurred nearly every day when Departmental papers were laid-on the table. The solution was that the Opposition were perturbed to see paper after paper brought down, and every one showing the continued and increased prosperity of the Dominion. Mr H. G. Ell (Christchurch South)said that if the manager of a private insurance company were to allow business to slip away to other companies, he would promptly hear something from his board of directors. If private insurance companies were so keen after business, why should not the State Fire Insurance Department also keep on the alert. He quoted from a circular stating the objects and Jbusiness of the Department, emphasising the fact that it assisted the Farmers' Mutual Insurance Association by taking over its excess lines. The hon. member for Patea would probably be interested to know that. He emphasised the benefits which the country had obtained from the Departments In the eight years it had been in existence the insurers of the Dominion had been saved £1,500,0G(>, as premiums had been reduced by ! 33 1-3 per cent. More than that, the Department acted as a watchdog, preventing the private companies from increasing their premium rates. i >Mr J. H. Bradney (Auckland West) said that :the institution of the Department had not Tbeen an unmixed blessing. The companies had combined, and instead of their competing for business they had a uniform premium rate. There was no difference to any person in insuring with the State or any of the companies. He was "opposed to State trading enterprises, and objected to the existence of such departments as that being discussed. The Department had not justified its existence. Mr EU: What about the 33 1-3 per cent, reduction? The whole trend of such Socialistic legislation, Mr-Bradney concluded, was to encourage monopolies, and not to destroy them. Mr W. A. Veiteh (Wanganui) said that he could almost admire the wild indiscretions of the hon. member who had preceded him. (Laughter.) He had deplored the fact that competition amongst fire insurance companies was no more. This was not so. The speaker himself knew of a case where the State Department had given a* lower quote than any of the private offices. The discussion was brought to an end by the dinner adjournment. THE ELECTIVE EXECUTIVE. ABOLITION OF PARTY GOVERNMENT. [From our own Parliamentary Reporter.] WELLINGTON, July 17. Mr J. A. Hanan (Invercargill) moved the second reading of the Election of Ministers and Party Government Reform Bill, the provisions of which have been published. He referred to the waste of time and money that occurred through the fights for place and power that occurred under party government. Under the system he proposed 'Ministers would be elected on their individual merits, 1 and they would not have to sink their personal convictions for the sake of party. At present the Prime Minister occupied an autocratic position and he had too great a domination. The people would retain power in their own hands so that the majority bhould decide all things. They'must abolish party government and have Ministers selected. The system he proposed would secure political freedom, individual thought, and independence of action. Parliamentary procedure had been reduced to an utter absurdity, ond public feeling against it was growing stronger every day. Party Government was a fraud and a sham on the people. Under clause 12 of the Bill the House of Representatives could not be dissolved without a resolution of the Chamber. Mr H. G. Ell (Christchurch South) considered that party government called for too many sacrifices on the part of the individual member. It did not secure the most capable administrators. He believed a majority of the electors were in favour of the wpneiple of the Bill, .

Mr W. MeCallum (Wairau) failed to see that any advance-whatever could be made by adopting the measure. Why not ballot for each Minister? Why not give the power of recall? The Bill was not clear enough. The House would act wisely in throwing out the measure. Mr G. J. Anderson (Mataura) saw no difficulty about the election of Ministers as proposed. Men would be elected for well-known qualities, and would be allotted their portfolios accordingly. More Ministers were required to administer the different departments, and sooner or later an addition would have to be made to the present number. Mr Ji McCombs (Lyttelton), Mr A. Harris (Waiteinata), and Mr • J. A. Young (Waikato). spoke in support of the Bill, which was read a second time. The House adjourned at 12,17 a.m.