LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume I, Issue 121, 27 June 1914, Page 10

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

!THE NEW APPOINTMENTS.

; A SPIRITED DEBATE.

; PRIME MINISTER'S TRIUMPH.

'JTrfon our own Parliamentary Reporter.]

r WELLINGTON, June 26. The chief feature in the debate on the Imprest Supply Bill, in fact the ,only part' of the debate in which any--real interest was taken, was that devoted to Question of the reform of the Legislative Council, and the forthcoming ap- . of members by the Government.; The discussion dragged over jnanyl hours, being taken in instalments ks tfye Bill passed through its various stages. Sir Joseph Ward asked the Prime Minister to tell the House what he inWded to do with regard to the Upper House. The Rt. Hon. W. F. Massey replied that he was .making certain appoint*, mAn t.a to the Cotincil, and he would announce next week how many appointments he would make and who his iacminees would be. ;IS THERE A MANDATE? . Sir Joseph Ward asked Mr Massey if ie taught he had a mandate from the tiountify to reform the Legislative Council. When the present Government > was returned to the House it was in a minority of three. If the Prime Minister claimed to have a mandate, then it *was mandate from a minority of the toeopte. Government members: W;ho the Snandate? . Sir Joseph Ward: I don't have it*—'(laughter)—and you didn't have it at jthe time of the election. You are where you are because one or two members broke their pledges to their constituents. He was proceeding to speak further srhen he was stopped by the Speaker's belL The Prime Minister said that when he faceil the House after the last election piere were 41 members pledged to turn |he Ward, Government out of office. Two bf these, the members for Otaki and Grey Lynn, broke their pledges in this yespect. : Sir Joseph Ward: Do you say they Vere pledged to you personally ? 3Htr Massey: No; to their constituents. Sir Joseph Ward: They say they were toot.

Mr Massey went on to give the history of the divisions which followed the last election, and which resulted in his teturn to power. There was nothing wrong about the way the divisions had been taken. Sir Joseph Ward: But you didn't fiave a mandate before that. THE COUNTRY'S VERDICT.

Mr Massey: There can be no question of the verdict of the country. The country was against the hon. gentleman. In accordance with the pledges of members returned last election, I say we have a -- mandate from the country for the reform of the Legislative Council. The great number of the jjeople of the country are in favour of our policy. Mr I*. M. Isitt (Christchurch North): How do you know that? Mr Massey: Because they returned 41 members pledged to us. Mr Isitt: That is not why you are there. , -Mr Massey Vent on ,io refer to the Result of the Otaki election. Sir Joseph Ward: Your candidate lost that election.

A BREEZE. Mr Massey: Where was your candidate? (Laughter). The right hon. member would have been better to have left that subject alone. Dealing with the question of appointments to the [Upper House, he said that all the time were in power the Liberals never Appointed one man who was politically opposed to them. Mr J. Colvin (Buller): We didn't Appoint rejects. Mr Massey: The hon. gentleman had better say nothing, because only last veek I had a deputation to ask me to appoint him to the Council. As a matter of fact, the supporters of four (ttlferent candidates have approached me to' make the same appointment. Opposition members: Name therti. Mr Massey: No. Members: Name them; it is only fair. Mr Colvin (heatedly): This is. the first I have ever heard of it. 1 * I never ftsked the deputation to make silch a jcequest.

Mr Massey: I don't say so f6r one momenta I don't think it was sb. • Sir Joseph Ward: Who are the four? —Mr Massey: I won't name them.

Mr R. M'Callum (Wairau): They Jprobably belong to your party. Mr Massey: No; in no case were the Reputations concerned with supporters &£ mine. Mr Colvin: I want to make it public that no man had any mandate from me to ask for such an appointmdiit. Mr Massey: I never said so. The deputation were some of your own personal friends and supporters. Hon. members had better not push me too far.

Mr Colvin: I'll drag vou as far as I like.

REFORM FROM WITHIN

Tfce Prime Minister said that the Government appointed members to the tipper House, not because they were on their side, but because tljev were representative men. That was the policy the Government would always stick The Leade* of the Opposition : had- asked Why the House of Representatives had not been given an opportunity to express itself on the question of Council Ireform. Such a question showed his ignorance of all constitutional- practice. Whenever a Chamber to be : re-* formed, the proposal was brought before that Chamber, itself. If the House Representatives was to be reformed, Jxow would members like to ha\yj .the proposals for reform brought in from the Council? Surely reform must always come from within? > Mr G. W. Forbes (Hurunui): What about Lloyd George and the House of Lords? '

The Prime Minister: Lloyd Georgs did not reform the House of Lords. Mr Forbes: He considerably modified some of its powers. Mr Massey: That's a different story.' THE GOVERNMENT MAJORITY.

Later in the afternoon/ on the motion to go into Committee of Ways and Means, Sir Joseph Ward returned to the Subject. He said the Prime Minister jELeclared that he came back after the last election with a majority. That was legitimate claim to make. In Grey Lynn there was a Reform candidate, but he was beaten. Therefore the

member for Grey Lynn was not returned as a supporter of his. That is beyond all question. Mr Massey: lie was certainly no supporter of yours. Sir Joseph Ward: That doesn't concern me. I am not tlie Prime Minister, asking the Governor to make appointments to the Council in order to bring about a great constitutional change. The member for Otaki was also not returned as a supporter of the right hon. gentleman. He had a candidate there also who was beaten. Nor was the hon. member for Wanganui returned as his supporter. The Reform candidates were beaten in all these electorates. I think I have proved beyond doubt that the right hon. gentleman came back with a minority. CONSULT THE PEOPLE. I What I say is that the people of the country have a right to be consulted before such a constitutional change is carried out, because a clear majority of the country did not vote for it at the last election. I deny the right absolutely for any Government, whoever they may be, to attempt to effect a great constitutional reform by appointing nominees to the Second Chamber unless the people have given them a mandate to carry out that reform. What would happen, for instance, if the House of Representatives were to carry a large increase in. the graduated land tax in the next two years? When the Council Reform Bill is carried, it will not take effect until after the session of 1915. At the next election the people might return a Housq with a majority which would treble ithev land tax, but it would be defeated by a majority in the Upper House, created without the mandate of the people. FRUSTRATING POPULAR WILL. Sir Joseph Ward was interrupted by the dinner adjournment. Resuming in the evening, he said that* the change contemplated by the Government was against the best interests of the country. If a Liberal Government wished to do the best for the people of the country in the matter of land settlement it would have its hands tied for seven years through the large number of appointments now to be made. It was his idea that this was behind the whole affair; the Government was taking steps to frustrate the will of the people after the next election. The new nominees were presumably instructed in what they had to do before they went to the Council. So far as he himself was concerned, he had never asked one of them to make a pledge, and he had never asked a single one of them to support a Government Bill. He knew that they had certain definite duties to perform, and he allowed them to deal with any of his Bills according to their consciences and. what they thought best. OPPOSED TO REFORM. The Prime Minister said that Sir Joseph Ward seemed to be bitterly opposed to reform of the Upper House. He must be behind the times. He had argued that the Government had no mandate from the people, and that they had not been returned with a majority. Opposition members: That is a fact. Mr Massey: Well, we-were elected with a majority over the right hon. gentleman and his following. When he brought down the proposals on which the Reform Bill was founded, five supporters of the Liberals voted for it. Was not that a mandate in favour of the Bill?

Mr G. W. Forbes (Hurunui): It was not a mandate from the people. Mr Massey: How is the Government to get a mandate except throught the people's elected representatives. Sir . Joseph Ward: But you declared yourself in favour Of the elective principle, and now you propose to nominate a great batch—an extraordinary argument.

Mr Massey, continuing, said that the gradxiated land tax argument was a very extraordinary one. The intentions attributed to him by Sir Joseph Ward had never come into his mind, nor was he aware that the Opposition had made any proposals for such an increase. It was himself who had increased the tax.

Sir Joseph Ward: Your increase was a-baby compared to mine. Mr Massey: I am not prepared to admit that. (Derisive Opposition laughter.) The subdivision of land during his administration had constituted a record, and this was primarily due to his increase in the land tax. MAJORITY NECESSARY, The Government required a majority in the Upper House to carry its proposals, and there was not a majority there now. Opposition members: How do you know? Mr Massey: By the results of the divisions of last year. He could not say at present how many Councillors he would need to appoint in order to get his majority. An hon. membei: Don't overdo it. Mr Massey said that after he had made his appointments the Council would we brought up to a strength of forty. / An hpn. member: Then you intend to make twelve appointments? Mr Massey: I can't say how many members I shall appoint. There may be 38 members or there may be 41. Mr G. Witty (Riccarton): Can't you squeeze in another one. Mr Massey: Perhaps the hon. member will be coming to me to get me to keep a place for him until after the next election. (Laughter). Mr Witty: Not just yet. Mr T. M. Wilford (Hutt): Don't you think that the whole thing has outlived its usefulness? Mr D. H. Guthrie (Oroua): Like some hon. members. Mr Wilford: That is what you said in 1891.

Opposition members: He has changed his mind.

Mr Massey: I know members who have changed their minds not since 1891, but since 1913. (Laughter). Mr Wilford: He's referring to Fisher.

Mr Fisher: Now your foot's coming off the soft pedal. (Laughter). IS THE GOVERNMENT, SERIOUS? Mr G. W. Russell asked if the Government was really serious in desiring reform of the Legislative Council. When they came into power in 1912 the Council reform was one of the planks in their platform, and practically all they had done was to go to the Council and say: "Will you kindly commit barakm." Now they proposed to do the same thing for the third time and to put in a majority of twelve or thirteen to carry the bill. The effect would be that this majority of their supporters would be an effective brake on all progressive legislation after next election. The Bill should have been introduced in the House of Representatives. He knew of no constitutional i-ule or precedent which wOuld have forbidden such action. The Bill was defeated last year by only one vote, and when the division was taken many members were absent, including the Hons. Hardy and Earnshaw, two of the present Government's most recent ap-

pointees. He submitted that the Government now had a majority in the Council, and did not need to make any fresh appointments. Mr Massey: That is not so.

Mr Russell: Well, give the Council as it is at present constituted another chance, and if it throws out the Bill for the third time then you can make these appointments. TWO RUMOURS. Mr Russell went on to refer to tlve report published in an Auckland Reform newspaper to the effect that Mr Wilkinson, a Reform candidate for the Bay of Islands, had been offered a seat in "the Council, but 4hat all the pressure brought to bear ;oft him had failed to get him to accept it. It was also rumoured that a similar offer had been made to Mr D. Buick, the present member for Palmerston; North. Mr js£assey: Ask Mr Buick about it. Mr Russell,: UnfoTtunately he is not here at present-. Opposition members: deny it. • " Mr Russqll: •* We can .be prettyv sure their naifies "were on the list.' Mr Massey: No one has seen that list but v myself. ■ (-Laughter.) - - ■ - Mr Russell: I don't 'envy Irim his possession of it. - I am told it contains four hundred names. (Loud laughter.) THE RUMOURS DENIED. The Hon. ,Jas. Allen" said , t that the previous speaker had once been a' member of a Ministry-which had ield office for a short term.' Cpuld. his .Ministry get its legislatiQiil in Upper House? Were they faced there by a hostile majority? Russell thought about that he would find the answer to his owri ; qiiestion about the necessity for these, appointments. As for the" stories with regard to Messrs Wilkinson and Buick, well, he often wondered where - the hott. member got his facts. -v Mr Russell: I quote your budget sometimes. (Laughter.) Mr Alien said that a position in the Council had been offered neither to Mr Wilkinson nor to Mr Buick. ■••Mr Russell: Were their names on the list?

•Mr Allen continued that Mr Russell had had,a good deal to say about the appointment of members for seven years, but he had not told the House that last year the Government introduced a Bill to reduce the term to three years. The Bill was defeated in the Council and never became law. Sir Joseph Ward: Why don't you make these appointments for one year and get your Bill carried? Mr Wilford: Did you ever vote for the abolition of the Council? Mr Allen: I believe I did once. Mr Wilford: On September 16, 1911? Mr Allen: I'll explain. I was so disgusted with these seven-year appointments that I thought it would be better to see the whole thing ended rather than go on in the same way.