EVENING- SITTING.

Southland Times, 23 December 1868, Page 6

EVENING- SITTING.

Dr Monckton gave Notices of Motion for next morning's sitting, for extension of telegraph wires to Eiverton, and also, relative to payment of honorarium to country members. EAST ROAD. Mr Dalbymple, in introducing the motion standing in his name, — " That this Council specially recommends, in terms of clause 36, of the ' Southland Waste Lands Act, 1665,' that a grant of land, not less than ten thousand acres (10,000 acres), be made for defraying the cost of road works in the Eastern District," — said he had brought this subject on earlier than he intended to have done, but that, as a matter of justice to the Eastern District while the land was so liberally dealt with, or rather given away, he thought it should have a share. He did not intend to say much in advocacy of the motion. The roads were in a very bad condition, as everyone knew, notwithstanding what had been done. Mr Johnston would second the motion pro forma. The Pbovincial Teeasueeb would ask Mr Dalrymple — seeing the vague terms of the motion — how much more than 10,000 acres of land he would like to have set apart for the purpose indicated ? Mr Abmstbong must oppose the motion. He thought to press the same would be madness ; if carried, it would materially endanger our prospects of getting the land for railways. Mr Hately thought it had better be left to the Eoad Engineer to give a report on the requirements of the district, and the Council could act in accordance. Mr Eoss thought the Council, in entertaining the motion, was just wasting time. He found that land could only be allocated for public works, of which the preliminary steps had been taken. Certainly this was not the case in this instance. The particular work was not even specified for which the grant was required, and there were no contracts out, so that it could not be said there was any work in progress. Mr Johnstone suggested to the mover the propriety of withdrawing the motion for the present. Mr Peaeson said he was glad for once to have secured the co-operation of an energetic member like the member for Oreti. It would be remembered that he (Mr Pearson) had, in a previous session, asked for money for the Eastern Eoad, and had obtained a vote for the same ; a small instalment had been paid of the vote, and the remainder he (Mr P.) considered was a claim for all time. The £10,000 asked for, or rather the 10,000 acres were, without doubt, due to the Eastern Eoad. Mr Dalbymple would withdraw his motion. WESTERN DISTRICT. Mr Daniel asked leave to withdraw his motion — " That this Council recommends, in terms of clause 36, of the ' Southland Waste Lands Act, 1865 ' that grant of land, not exceeding 10,000 acres, be made for the public works in the Western District of this Province." Leave was .granted, and the Council proceeded to the Orders of the day. ORETI RAILWAY. Mr Basstian, in asking the question — " What steps the Government means to adopt with regard to the offer of Mr Patterson for the supervision of the Oreti Eailway," thought it was necessary that the correspondence between the Provincial Government and the Engineer (Mr Patterson) should be read to the Council. The correspondence having been read. Mr Basstian said the sum asked by Mr Patterson £1,200, appeared to him a very large one, and he could not understand how it could be necessary to pay such an amount as that. In reviewing the items of payments already made to Mr Patterson, he (Mr Basstian) found that £1,072 had been paid to him on account of the Winton line, and he would aßk what did Mr Patterson do for this ? The answer was he had sent down a young surveyor who had been at work on the line for about three weeks, and he (Mr Patterson) had himself devoted three days to it. £600 had been paid for a preliminary survey of the line from Winton northward, and he (Mr B.) understood that survey was useless. He wished to know had the Government the original plans prepared by Mr Patterson, or simply copies of them, because if they had not the originals, he could not understand what the money had been paid for. He considered in the state of the line, and as there were no engineering difficulties to be overcome, our Eoad Engineer (Mr Dawson) was fully competent to undertake the supervision of the work while in progress. The Pbovincial Teeasueeb said in reply that the Government had come to no decision on the matter. It was a subject for consideration, and if the Council decided that it was desirable to employ Mr Patterson, the amount could be provided for in the usual way when appropriation was made. The present Mauager of Permanent Way, Mr Conyers had stated to him (the Provincial Treasurer) that it would cost at least £900 for the inspection and super-

vision ofthe line in progress to Winton ; this would be exclusive of th© sum required by Mr Patterson. Mr Conyers thought it would be necessary to employ at least three inspectors, and £300 each would not be an excessive remuneration for tho work. He (Mr B.) might remark that the Colonial Secretary, on the part of the General Government, might insist on the appointment of an engineer at the expense of the Province to overlook the work and to report thereon. Without giving satisfaction to the General Government any one could see it would be impossible for us properly to carry the work through, and in all probability the Colonial Secretary would be satisfied with Mr Patterson's report as he possessed the confidence of the Government. We should thus save the expense of a second man. As regarded Mr Basstian's question about the plans, the Province had not got the original, plans, for the reason that it was considered that mounted copies would be more useful and durable, and Mr Dundas concurred in this opinion. As to whether the survey from Winton northward was a good survey or no, he (Mr B.) could not say, not having travelled over the line. Mr Caldeb wished the motion standing in name of the Provincial Treasurer to be now put. The Pbovincial Tbeasubeb moved the suspension of standing order No. 27, " That the question as to the propriety ofthe employment of an Engineer on the Winton contract might be considered." Mr Abmstbong seconded, and the motion was carried. The Pbovincial Tbeasubeb moved, "That a sum of £1,500 for inspection of ( railway works be appropriated at the next meeting of Council." Mr Abmstbong seconded. He thought that although the £1,200 asked by Mr Patterson appeared large, it might not in reality be too much to pay. He thought 10 per cent, was actually paid on contracts. Mr Conyers had told them in addition to Mr Patterson's remuneration they would have to spend £900 more for inspection. It would be remembered that Mr Patterson received £60 per month on the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill Eailway, and the Council had voted that. One argument for the employment of Mr Patterson was that he had prepared the specifications, and consequently would understand more of the work. Another was the General Government approved of Mr Patterson, and employed | him. He thought it could be easily seen that our present officers would not be able to do the work. There was Mr Conyers — a superior man without a doubt — but he would have bis hands full. The arrival of plant at the BJuff would find him employment in its bestowal, and the superintendence of the smaller contract would fall on him. Mr Johnstton — Does the £,1500 include the £900 referred to ? The Pbovincial Tbeasubeb — Yes. Mr Caldeb would oppose the motion. If Government could not see their way to the completion of a small undertaking like the one in hand without incurring the large expense in supervision which the motion contemplated, he thought they were unfit to deal with the matter at all. He (Mr Calder) did not believe in enveloping an ordinary transaction in so much of mystery, in conjuring up difficulties for I the sole purpose apparently of creating a necessity for an outlay. Where were the difficulties ? They were not even as great as in the construction of an ordinary road. To talk of special difficulty was ridiculous. Engineering as such, was not required, the Hue was laid off and constructed. In reference to the money already spent, he (Mr C.) must say j there was a grave responsibility resting somewhere or other — the expenditure on the Winton line had been very large — and £600 paid for the Northern survey, of which it appeared the Government knew actually nothing. He must say the truth ought to have been enquired into, considering the rumours which bad been afloat- Satisfacti on on this point would at least have had this worth, that it would have given us some data on which to judge as to the value and efficiency of Mr Patterson. He hoped the Council would ° pause before giving the Government power to spend money as they proposed to do. £1000 had been voted to Mr Patterson for plans, and dust had been thrown in the eyes ofthe people. Engineering difficulties had been made to cover all kinds of expenditure, and for the £1000 plan, we had got what wa3 perhaps not worth ,£SOO. Indeed rumour says the old plans were used after all with but slight alteration ; he (Mr C.) would like to know if this were so. Our own surveyor was certainly as competent to perform the work for which we paid £600, as the young man who did it. Indeed, it may be fairly asked whether auy one else would not have done it better. We have a Chief Surveyor. Why eonld not his services have been availed of. Again the £1000 voted to Mr Patterson was to have covered all. Why i was the £72 tacked on ? The Pbovincial Tbeasubeb explained that the £72 was partly for Mr Patterson's travelling expenses hither, and the balance for expenses relative to the Eastern line, and on the occasion of opening the tenders. Mr Caldeb resumed. What are the drawings in possession of the Government ? They are the plans to be signed by the contractors. If to £1000 already from Mr Pan. rson, we add £1500 now proposed, we have the sum of £2500, being 14 per oent on the value of the completion, a; id this upon a work of which twothii-*i~ is already done. If we need an engineer, local assistance equal to the occasion is to be had, or Mr Balfour's services may be obtained, while whatever we might pay Mr Patterson, he would not actually supervise the work. Under all the circumstances, he thought we ought not to pay so large a sum. And if the completion ofthe railway be a : matter of so much difficulty a_ to need all the supervision and engineering skill

that it had been attempted to show was necessary in such case, he (Mr C.) could not vote for its completion. Dr Hodgkinson rose to order. He thought the Council should have passed the vote for the land first, and until that was done, discussion on details was wasting time. It would be better to postpone the question of expenses until to-morrow, and to deal with the land to-night ; and would therefore propose, as an amendment to the Provincial Treasurer's motion — " That the further ! consideration be adjourned until tomorrow morning." Mr Johnston seconded the amend*, ment. Mr M'Clube would in the meantime suggest the examination of Mr Conyers. The amendment for adjournment of the question was then put and carried. The Pbovincial Tbeasubeb, in bringing before the Council the motion standing in his name, as follows : — " That this Council specially recommends, in terms of clause 36, of the ' Southland Waste Lands Act, 1865,' that a grant of land, not exceeding 25,000 acres, be made for railway works in Southland," — said the motion was in itself so explicit as to relieve him ofthe necessity of saying much in introducing it. (Mr Blacklock here read the correspondence between the Superintendent of Southland and the Colonial Secretary, and also, correspondence with Mr Patterson.) It would be seen that Mr Patterson had estimated the cost of completion at £27,200, this with the allowance to cover interest would make a total of £30,000, so that it would be seem that we were in a position to complete the work at a much less cost than was anticipated. Mr Abmstbong, in seconding the motion, said this was the only mode by which the* railway could be completed. Unless this motion was passed, he felt that the Government could not continue to hold office. The hon member for Invercargill — Mr Calder — had stated they were unfit for their position. Mr Caldeb explained. Mr Johnston regretted that nothing was said in the motion about the state of the Province. He wanted to know how the interest was to be paid ; there was no laud selling, and nobody to buy. Would not the contractors put their land in the market at a less price than the Government, and thus stay the sales that might arise ? He thought the railway must be finished, but could not see his way to finishing it now. If we cannot pay our interest our condition with the General Government will be a very unpleasant one. He doubted whether the General Government could accede to the recommendation if made. He would oppose the motion. Mr Dalbymple read some extracts from the proceedings ofthe House of Assembly, and said we were drifting to destruction. Mr Howell would not support the motion. Mr M'Clube thought that as our land was at present yielding nothing — or but 2d per acre — we could not do better with it than to finish the work. He would have hon. member's remember that £13,000 had been paid for plant ; that, and the freight thereon with interest on the same would swell up. The question had been so often gone into that all that remained for him — Mr M'Clure — to say now was that our burden would be increased if the railroad were not completed. Dr Hodgkinson said the Council having affirmed the principle of payment in land this was now the only course by which the matter could be completed. After three years handling of this matter to shelve it now would be foolish. After the negotiations so long protracted with the General Government — refusal to complete when it is now in our power j would be a very strange course. The Council had sanctioned the sending for plant, and was therefore committed to finish the work. It was a pity the engineering question had been started. The Speakeb would remind the House that carrying the motion would not increase our debt, but really tend to lessen it. Mr Daniel did not believe in factious opposition to Government measures. He would, when possible, strengthen the hands of Government. He was, it was well known, no railway man in the abstract, and in the discussion on the probable expenses of completing the line, he had lost somewhat of confidence in his idea of the propriety at present of finishing the Eailway. He would not say he should vote against the motion, but for the present he hesitated to support it. It was always pleasanter to deal with matters which one could cordially support. Still the question must be settled. He would like to ask why had the original twenty thousand had been altered to twenty-five thousand acres ? The Pbovincial Tbeasubeb — To include the new portion on the Bluff line. Mr Clebke said some cash would be needed at once for freight ; the Government reports were meagre. Mr Peaeson said he had been reminded during the discussion of one of JEsop's fables, from which he would draw a moral, and the Council could make the application. The fable was that of a mouse and a frog, wbo on the edge of a swamp, armed with bulrushes, fell to mortal conflict. A kite hovering over the scene of action while the combatants were engaged, at one fell swoop carried off both. The moral ofthe fable is ' Eactions do breed mischief in a State.' The application — take our own while we can, lest it should be taken from vs — Macauley says — " Mutual divisions proceeding from party animosities," are oft times the surest precusors of foreign aggression. Mr Clarke had said we should need to make a good many cash payments before the 31st of present month. He (Mr P.) would warn that Council that if we had not what # we wanted before the end of the year we should very likely not get it at all. In all probability in the next '

u-enerai Assembly tbe whole or tbe Ift&A funds of the Middle Island would be confiscated to pay war expenses. The advantages of this line are apparent not merely as opening up so much country* but as benefiting other districts. There is for instance, the bringing down of lime so much required in the Eastern District, and which cannot be had without the railway. Then there are the coalfields, and it has been satisfactorily; proved that the coal discovered/ in proximity to the line of rail is superior toNewcastle. This coal, whatever be its true value, is valueless except at the sea* board. To get it then to the sea cheap is the matter we have to consider ; this eto only be done by a railroad. The line once made could be leased for * term for as much as would pay the entire, official expenditure of the ProyiDCe. THe member for Oreti says " How abolit 'Eoads'if we spend this on railways." Well, unless the railway is made the road as far as Winton cannot be. comr pleted. On a great many grouulsywe, are bound to complete, the railroad. ., Members of the Council. now opposing, the completion know well they vrevel returned to the Council on the "Bailway;:. ticket." To have raised any other. cm or to have opposed this at the time would , have been for them to have lost their eleci tion. Where was their consisterLcy? There.. was, however, now no possibility .of avoiding the completion. The. 7 line, might have been constructed by leasing long ago. He (Mr Pearson) was, in a position to prove this, but the squatters opposed, and now they are, opposing tbe demand of the settlers for roads, by endeavoring to destroy the only chance he has of getting the materials; there had been blunders in railroad: making in the Province, as in ofchej; things. Mr Patterson had altered specifU cations, and thus a demand for compensation had arisen. He (Mr P.) had that confidence in the intelligence of ; , the, members of that Council to be assured that the opportunity of executing .so^ important a public work for so' small ft sum being presented it would not be allowed to slip. , : j; Y. Mr Pbatt referred to the debt of the. Province and the interest. Mr Caldeb said he approached the subject with a good deal of diffidence. Debt had been talked of, and with some it seemed as if they had but one idea, and that, debt. Every man must see there is no such thing as the debt of Southland, because in the session beforo last, the debts of the whole colony were consolidated. The public creditor knows no province, no individuality of debt. Southland, without doubt, is able to bear its quota of this debt. Something had. been said aboufc leasing the line — that is the Bluff Harbor and Invercargill line.; It was well known that Mr Holmes opposed the leasing of this line, and he (Mr Holmes) instigated the appointment of a Select Committee of the Assembly? to report on the condition and prospects* of Southland. He (Mr C.) need not tell: fchem that the result wbs that comparison of assets with liabilities showed ; Soiith* land to be in a first rate position ; there. had been extravagance, but after all, ther work remained, and it was a reproductive work, and part of a colonial scheme. -If an adverse vote were arrived at on this r question, the Council would*, stultifyf itself, having affirmed the principle,. of railways, sanctioned the order of plant, and called for tenders for completion df-; the line. V' Mr Pbatt moved an adjournment of', the debate. ix y Mr Johnston seconded. Dr Hodg_onson opposed the adjourn- j ment; we had no right to stultify ourselves as we should by passing the resolution for adjournment. The PsoviNcrAL Tbeasubeb reminded the Council that freight must be paid on the plant whether the plant was used or not. 7 ,- ... ;..; -.:.-< After a few words from Mr DANtEfc, who proposed a slight amendment of the <.a original motion, which was agreed to by the mover, the amendment was put- and lost. :.•■.■.,,.:■;;.■; The original motion was then put with the following result : — ■-:-- .: ;.-y Ayes, 13— -Messrs Daniel, Eoss, vLon-s,: guet, Hately, Pratt, Monckton, Calder 1 , . Pearson, Blacklock, Armstrong, M'Clure, Hodgkinson and Howell. ,--. Noes, 4-r-Dalrymple, Basstian, Johnson and Clerke. \ Mr Peabson's motion, relative. to ; : amendment of Executive Ordinance, was made an Order of the Day for next i sitting. -Aa a\Aaa The House adiourned at :12.20 P.m.: