THE LICENSING BILL.

Poverty Bay Herald, Volume XXXI, Issue 10186, 21 October 1904, Page 3

THE LICENSING BILL.

IN COMMITTEE IN THE COUNCIL. (From our Parliamentary Reporter.) WELLINGTON, this day. Tlie Wellington Racing Club's meeting interfered with the progress of tlie Licensing Bill yesterday afternoon, a number ikof members being absent, and the Bill oeing as a consequence only fifth on tho ordtr paper. It was reached some 20 minutes before the dinner adjournment, when the clause relating to prohibited persons was discussed. Tlie Hon. J. Rigg, while he admitted that the cltuse was a step m the right direction, "questioned whether the present law was successful. Prohibited persons were able to get as much liquor as t-liey liked so long as they had money enough to buy it with. The method was for a prohibited person to hire a »roxy to buy liquor for him. He was doubtful whether it would ever be possible to prevent a prohibited person from getting drink. Perhaps the identification system of photographic distribution might solve the problem. The Hon. G. Jones said that publicans wero nob properly notified as to who were the prohibited persons, and he thought they could not be. He deprecated'- the suggested photographic system, and regarded the suggestion as an indication that the only cure for the evil was the abolition of liquor. A defence of prohibition orders as a power for good was set up by the Attor-ney-General. He proposed to amend the clauw by extending the prohibition still further, m order that a prohibited person may not be permitted to obtain liquor from railway refreshment rooms. He would also amend the section m other ways. He did nob agree with the Hon. G. Jones' views. How were- they going to prevent prohibited persons obtaining liquor unless they made stringent restricjons ? The Hon. G. Jones : Abolish it. The Attorney-General : Impossible ; ib will always exist, and you can't abolish it. The Hon. G. Jones rejoined that the failure of this colony to regulate the drink traffic was evidence of the impossibility of controlling it, andl that therefore abolition was the only cure. The Attorney -General then moved to amend that section of the clause which provides "that the fact of a prohibited' person drinking liquor or having it m his possession shall be evidence of his having committed a breach of the law," and inserting "being found" before "drinking." This was agreed, to. Colonel Pitt then moved that the provision regarding prohibition orders should also extendi to railway refreshment rooms as well- as hotels. The Hon. C. 0. Bowen pointed) out tliat an authoritative statement had been made to the country to the effect that the sale ! of liquor at these rooms wouldi be abolished. The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. Mr Feldwick then moved to amend the clause by the addition of a sub-clause providing thab a person who applies for a prohibition order against himself can have it granted 1 otherwise than m an open Court. The amendment received warm support, andl was agreed to. Another amendment was moved by the Hon. H. Feldwick. that when any person has "been thrice convicted of drunkenness within six months the magistrate may forthwith by "his own initiative issue a prohibition order against him. This amendment, was also agreed to, and the clause as amended was passed. A definition of gambling and unlawful games was asked for by the Hons. F. Arkwright andl E. C. J- Stevens when clam-e 47 (prohibiting gambling and unlawful games on licensed premises was reached. Mr Stevens said that the definition should bo very carefully defined: He had it on good authority that euchre and whist were lawful games, while poker was unlawful. As to bridge whist, it was hard to say what it was, but people should not be left to discover whether a game was lawful or unlawful merely by th*P decision of a Cowrt. He urged l thai the Legislature should dlefine which were unlawful games, and pointed out that as fttn-tan and pakopako had been so defined m explicit terms there was no reason why the other unlawful games' should not- be defined. N | The Hon. F. Arkwright moved- to strike out "gambling" from the. clause, leaving out unlawful games'. , This course the Attorney-General was 1 inclined to adopt if the last speaker would move his amendment so as to substitute gaming for gambling. He d.d not know whether there was any difference between the two, and he contended that certain gam«s were declared unlawful m the Gaming and Lotteries Act. It would be rather a difficult task to name all the unlawful games individually, as a number of them might nob be known. There was quite sufficient m that Act to enable the Court to decide whether any 'particular game was lawful or not. The Hon. C. C. Bowen imagined that the word gambling .had been put m the clause Tti ordler that dfcingerous gamblers might not liave the opportunity of operating m a public-house, which was a public place, and open to every sort of character. This reflection he considered suggested another argument against the absurdity of treating clubs as if they were hotels, whereas they were really on the same footing as private houses. The amendment was lost^by 19 to 11. At clause 48, making persons other than the licensee who actually supply liquor liable m certain offences, the Hon. C. C. Louisson moved to add harboring constablos and permitting gambling and drunkenness to the list of offences. He urged that his amendment was desirable as the liability of these offences if committed by a servant should, rest with the servant, *The amendment was ultimately withdrawn. The clauses concerning supplying liquor to Maoris for consumption off the premises, the use of injurious materials, and the limitation of proceedings were passed unaltered. Clause 52, consideration for landlord's consent to transfer void, was also passed with verbal amendment. THE CLUB CLAUSES. When clause 53, making clubs liable to certain provisions of the new Licensing Act, Mas reached, the Hon. George Jones moved that clubs be not allowed to serve liquor at all on Sundays, "even to that bona fide humbug, the traveller." Members of clubs objected very strongly to having their clubs ranked) as public-houses, •and said if the Bill passed as drafted at present there would be many -resignations from thc&lder members. The clubs were carried on, so far as senior clubs were concerned, more by the subscriptions of members than by the sales of liquor. The same thing applied' m a modified degree to junior clubs. Tbe clauses hadi been pub m the Bill at the request of the trade, or, at. any rate, of the public-house-keeper. There were 20,000 club members, to whom tho club clauses wouldi be very irritable. He moved to amend the clanse, which provides that the closing hours of the clubs shall coincide with those of publio houses, by permitting clubs to remain open from 6 a.m. to midnight, except on Sundays. He would! net, however, object to 11 p.m. being substituted for midnight. The AttorneyGeiwral' said that if the amendment, were carried it would place the Council hi a very invidious, position, as tihe amendment was so constructed as to cut out tho prohibition against gambling m clubs. He was not surprised that tho hotel keepers wanted the "clubs closed, as they had to pay fees- and rents while tho clubs soldi liquor after they themselves had to olose. The Hon. F. Arkwright, while he admitted that there might be objection m some cases to allowing clubs to remain open for the sale of liquor on Sundays or when the hotels are closed, bub he thought it was very unfair and unreasonable to prevent club members playing a game of cards or billiards after 11 o'clock. The Hon. G. Jones failed to see much difference between an hotel and a club, and inquired why, if the profits on the sale of liquors were so rtnall, the clubs troubled to sell liquor at all. Referring to Mr George's prophecy regarding the alienation of club members' votes, he thought that the loss of the 20,000 clubbists would gain the support of a more than compensating number of others. Much hadi been said of the working men's clubs, bub he liad received a letter from a life member of the Wellington Working Men's Club, who had stated tliat when the hours of closing hotels was- reduced there was a very, large influx into the ranks of the club members, who increased from 800 to 1000, when the list was closed. The writer of the letter had gone, on to state that members paid no attention to anything but the bar. With them ib had been bar first and bar last. If an official tried to pub down drunkenness ho iucurred the hostility of the committee, and was eventually expelled. The sight m tlie club when .the hotels were closed was one to be seen, but the spectacle on Sundays was the worst of all. Old members of the club had openly regretted that *he club had been begun, for instead of fulfilling its original promise of being a potential moral agency it had degenerated verj far indeed. The Hon. J. Rigg dteprecated the holding up of the Weuingiton Working Men's Club as an awful example. The people who complained! of its conduct were people who knew nothing about it. The letter quoted by the last speaker was quite obviously the work of a man with a grievance, who to vent his spleen had written a letter wliich no self-respecting man Mould write. H*_Jiad belonged to the club for many years. It was very well conducted indeed. With respect to the clause ho saw no proper cause for it. The real reason for its introduction was a desire to influence the votes of club members by applying to them the no-liquor no-licenso principle of the famous clause 9. to lead them not/ to vote no-license. Yet ho was sure iti would fail, for the same reason as clause 9 had failed. The Hou. G. Jones returned' to the charge again concerning the letter about the Wellington Club; The letter had been written by a man with a heart, a man with some feeling. ■ The fact was • '■."■ • • ■

people were becoming so used to drunkenness tliat the pity of it was lost upon them. Mr Rigg had himself admitted that ho liad seen drunkenness m the clubs. High class or low class, tho clubs were all drinking shops. The Hon. S. George roso to a point oi order, and asked whether Mr Jones should not lay the letter on the table or disclose the name of the writer. "It will remain m my pocket," said 1 Mr Jones. The Chairman of Committees : The letter is injudicious and unparliamentary. The Hon. S. George said he would accept any amendment regarding closing. Ho was prepared to accept 10 o'clock, or the hour at which hotels closed m the district. The Hon. T. K. Mac Donald said no • member of the House had a right to stigmatise clubs as drinking shops, as the Hon. JQnes had done. His statement was absolutely wrong, m his opinion it was the greatest tactical blunder the Government had ever made to interfere with the personal comfort and privileges of 20,000 1 male adults m this country. One year I from now would not cure the position, and the next general election the political folly of so acting towards these clubmen would be discovered. Why should men who had built houses for themselves be told that they could, nob drink m their own houses at any tune of tho day or night ! Clubmen did not entice the public to some m and drink. The Government had no right to interfere with the liberty of the subjert. Tho Hon. Col. Pitt said) that it had beeiii said by lion, mem.be.rs that the Bill had been introduced by tho Government at the instigation of tho trade, and by other members to favor the prohiMtionists. He referred to the Act of 1881 w.KMI charters were introduced to deal with the bogus clubs that sprang up. As to working men's clubs, they hod' so increased m number and membership as to make it imperative that the sale of liquor should be regulated. It was only proposed m this clause that the clubs were subjected to the same regulations regarding the sale of liquor as at hotels. In other respects there were no restrictions. The clubs could be kept open until 5 m the morning if iit was so desired. He asked 1 members to vote for the clause as it stood. The Hon. E. C. J. Stevens said that the clause did not remove any of the regulations regarding inspection of clubs by policemen, which he regarded as offensive, and which liad existed since--1881. The Hon. Col. Pitt said that the provisions regarding gaming and the sale of •liquor ruled, but did not authorise the police to come m to inspect the club. No one expected the inspector-appointed! by the Colonial Secretary would do so. On a division being taken the vote was 17 to lj& m favor of the clause remaining as it stood, tlie vote of Mahuta. wliich was given with some diffidence, carrying the scale, Tlie Hon. J. Rigg wished to amend sub-section 3 of clause 53, so as to allow of the Ashburton Club carrying on the sales of liquor until the result of the next licensing election, instead of as provided! by a special subclause m the Bill having their charter suspended from July 1, 1905. This was lost by 24 votes to 10. The Hon. 0. C. Louisson moved to strike out the proviso that a club charter may be cancelled on the Colonial Secretary beiug satisfied that, gambling, or the playing of an unlawful game is permitted. He argued that the playing of a game of euchre for sixpence by two members might render a club's charter liable to cancellation. Tlie Hon. Col. Pitt said that it was being askedl .that it should not be declared an offence, m clubs what was called an offence m licensed) houses. He hoped the sub-section would be retained. The sub-section was retained on the voices. The whole clause (53) was then put as amended and the clause was retained by 18 to 13. Progress was then reported and the , Council rose ab 11.45.