HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Otago Witness, Issue 3832, 23 August 1927, Page 28

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

WELLINGTON, August lb. The House met at 2.30 p.m. FINANCIAL DEBATE. The debate on the Financial Statement was resumed by Mr J. R. Hamilton (Awarua), who devoted a great deal of his speech to land matters and land values. He contended that much depended on the price of the produce from the land. New Zealand could only obtain world parity prices, and was doing so in some respects, but our butter was not getting within 20s per cwt of the Danish, which, the experts were agreed, was no better than the New Zealand product. Some people advocated cutting up large estates, but he pointed out that this, in many cases, was due to fallacious ideas. The mere cutting up of an estate added anything from £lO an acre upward. The critics complained of borrowing, yet those critics might be found at the same time holding out their hands for loan moneys. Almost all the dairy factories in New Zealand were on a co-operative basis, and the logical corollary was co-operative marketing, which had proved beneficial in the apple and honey industries. Expenditure on irrigation should be investigated, as it was not giving commensurate value. The Forestry Department needed a shake up, as its repressive royalty charges were stifling the sawmilling operations. Mr W. J. Jordan (Manakau), commenting on Mr Hamilton’s complaints of the burdens on the farming industry, said the blame lay with the banking institutions, which were taking so much of New Zealand's earnings in interest and other charges imposed on its economic operations. He declared that conditions under tiie present Government were growing increasttigly lamentable in Wellington. Mr T. W. Rhodes (Thames) urged the issue of bonds for a rural cred.t system and the provision of more funds for the State Advances Department to enable the farming industry’ to be developed. Secondary industries should also receive encouragement. Referring specially to Onakaka ironworks, he said he hoped efforts would be made to get these going on a paying basis. If this could not be done it would be a better course to close down and let the mens’ energies be devoted in other and more profitable directions.

Mr R. W. Smith (Waimarino) pointed out that while the National Debt was mounting up the country’s earning power was not showing an appreciable increase. Too great a proportion of expenditure in the past had been on non-productive works. He cited cases where many thousands of pounds had been spent on making roads alongside the railways to compete with the cream of the traffic—the passenger section of it. The expenditure on nuhlic works, declared Mr Smith, had been reckless and had produced no useful results. Local bodies had caught the spending infection also, the effect being to add very seriously to the rate burden

of the people in the small centres of 1 population. This sort of thing must be stopped, and he was glad to see that the Government was setting up the board to supervise local body borrowing and to. see that ratepayers received some value for the money raised. Touching on unemployment, Mr Smith contended that it was degrading to the country that it should permit a position to arise in which contributions should be' received from Chinamen towards the provision of relief work for unemployed white men. Referring to the difficulties of the timber industry, he pleaded that an added duty should be placed on imported timber anti wallboard. If this protection were not afforded sawmills would have to go under. Mr K. S. Williams (Minister of Public Works) said that the competition of the main highways with the railways must he admitted, but the people required these roads, and there was no doubt they had come to stay. The Local Bodies’ Loans Board was, he felt, likely to do a great deal of good, but there was no I standard system that could be adopted for road making, as the conditions varied to such an extent in different districts. The Government was doing all it could to use New Zealand timber in its works, but it was not always practicable to obtain suitable timber. Touching on the farmers’ financial difficulties, he pointed out that the genesis of the trouble was to be found in the large extra amount of freezing work space called for in the early days of the war. The sooner a great portion of this was written off the better it would be. The country had more thafi £26,000.000 invested in motor vehicles. If even £6,000,000 of that sum had been spent on top-dressing in the last few years the farmers would be in a much better position. There were also £12,000,000 or £13,000,000 more charged against land in the shape of local body loans. Motor vehicles were useful, but he considered a great many motor car owners used them wastefully for pleasure when their time could be more usefully employed on their farms or in their businesses. The cessation of bush felling in recent years had added to the unem" ployed army. He hardly knew how these men were to be fitted" in, but possibly some could be employed planting lands which had been found useless for any other purpose. As to deteriorated land, the only way to deal with this problem was to let it be occupied in larger areas till brought into workable condition, when it might be usable in smaller areas again. At present over 10,000 men were employed on public works, but how far could the department go in taking on new men? It was necessary to safeguard the permanent men in the department. The expenditure on-, various public buildings was being kept down to the lowest possible level in view of the conditions prevailing to-day. Mr E. J. Howard (Christchurch South) said that the amount on the Estimates for public buildings was not too large, at least not that £50,000 for school Buildings. . Many of our schools were out of

date and insanitary, and lie said to those who would cut down the building vote, “'For God’s sake don’t touch the vote for school buildings.” Mr T. D. Burnett (Temuka) discussed the high pastoral country in the South Island which he described as a great asset to the State, and which he also said had been bung-led and blundered with until within the last few years. The Dominion was suffering because of the depreciated carrying capacity as a result of this neglect. He quoted figures to show how seriously the sheep had diminished. The improved tenure instituted by the present Government had, however, brought about a new spirit of hope amongst the settlers who were rapidly improving their position. The adjournment of the debate was moved by Mr F. N. Bartram (Grey Lynn), and the House rose at 11.25 p.m. WELLINGTON, August 17. The House met at 2.30 p.m. FINANCIAL DEBATE. The debate on the Budget was resumed by Mr F. N. Bartram (Grey Lynn), who said that the Government’s financial proposals must of necessity open up a discussion of the whole of the Government’s activities. It had been asserted that outside the Ministry there were no six members who knew anything about finance. That assertion was generous, so far as the Ministry was concerned, but very ungenerous so far as many of the members outside of the Ministry were concerned. There had been a singular lack of lucidity on the part of the so-called financial experts, and on the part of the Government’s apologists. For instance, there had been a lack of lucidity in connection with the loan that had been made to the Broadcasting Company. The Government lent £15,000 at 8 per cent, on a security which was tantamount to a second mortgage. Mr Bartram produced a Gazette notice, dealing with the Broadcasting Company’s loan, and said the Government’s action had been neither expedient nor wise. The decision of the Government to squander £1,000,000 on warlike preparations at Singapore was unwise. The Government did not show any indication of economy on warlike expenditure. No matter what else suffered, money must be wasted on defence matters, which did not defend.

1925, out of every £lOO spent we spent £33 16s on war costs, £22 on other debts, £l5 2s on education, £5 12s on health, £5 8s on pensions, £3 18s on miscellaneous expenditure, and £l4 6s on departmental expenditure. So the expenditure due to war purposes was twice as large as the expenditure on education, six times as great as the amount, paid for old age pensions, and six times as large as the amount appropriated for the Health Department. Air C. E. MacMillan (Tauranga) devoted a considerable portion of his speech to the troubles of the primary producers, and strongly advocated the retention of the compulsory clauses in the Dairy Produce Control Act, He wanted cheaper fertilisers for the farmers, and declared

that bush-sick land could be cured if the question were tackled systematically. He urged that the Scientific Research Board be asked to investigate this problem. Mr C. E. Bellringer (Taranaki) commented on the comparative mildness of the Labour Party’s speeches. There was now nothing particularly “red” about them. They were, in fact, the pinkest of the pink. This change he attributed to a realisation that their extreme policy was not being accepted by the people in the country. He advocated a fairer adjust-

ment of taxation, so that all classes would bear their fair share of the burden. He was opposed to dairy control, and he urged the cutting up of large holdings of first-class lands held by comparatively few owners in the Dominion. Even if we lost £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 on soldier settlements, we had every reason to congratulate ourselves on the fact that our repatriation work had been so successful. He was satisfied, from all the evidence before them, that prosperity was returning to the Dominion, and that a new spirit of hope was taking possession of the people, who were still prepared to trust the Government.

When the House resumed at 7.30 p.m. the debate was continued by Mr J. M'Combs (Lyttelton), who said that the present Government had come into power on the cry of non-borrowing, and to put a stop to borrowing, yet in the last two years it had borrowed the huge sum of £22,000,000. The Government had last year brought down legislation to control local body borrowing, but what was needed was a loan board to control Government borrowing and expenditure. The Prime Minister had condemned local bodies building roads which would last 10 years but which would not be paid for under years ; yet the Government was building wooden schools and furnishing them out of 60year loans. But what sort of assets would these schools and furniture be at the termination of the loans? The Government was not conforming to the principles which it had laid down for the control of local bodies. Mr V. H. Potter (Roskill) defended the grant towards the Singapore base on the ground that our surest defence was the British Navy, and the opinions of experts on this subject must be accepted. He had no faith in the Geneva or otherpeace conferences. Tire only safe thing to do was to be prepared for war. One gun was more effective in action than a thousand tongues. Mr Potter defended the Government’s actions in purchasing land for returned soldiers, as the public would never have supported confiscation in this connection, and neither did the soldiers ask for it. 1 Mr T. Forsyth (Wellington East) defended the Government's financial policy, and advocated further preference for British goods.

Mr H. M. Campbell (Hawke’s Bay) congratulated the Minister of Finance upon coming out with a surplus, considering the lean year through which we had passed. He regretted that the Budget did not promise a reduction of taxation. Instead of prosecuting the East Coast railway he thought it w'ould be more profitable to lay down a good motor road. As the matter stood he did not think the railway would pay axle grease. Mr D. S. Reid (Waikato) advocated a tyre tax on motors, as the users of roads were not now paying a fair share to maintain the roads. He defended the Government against the charges of neglect of the returned soldiers. No soldiers in the world had been better treated and for his part he would be willing to devote another £1,000,000 to this purpose. Sir George Hunter (Waipawa) made an appeal to the Government on behalf of a number of soldier settlers in Hawke's Bay, and for better facilities for dental treatment for settlers in the backblocks. The adjournment of the debate was moved by Mr J. S. Dickson (Parnell). PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BILLS. In reply to Mr G. W. Forbes (Hurunui), who asked with special reference to the Daylight Saving Bill, the Prime Minister said he would have to consider what facilities could be given private members to get their Bills through. There were several in a somewhat similar position to the Daylight Saving Bill, and while he understood the Government could grant facilities it was a question how those facilities should be given. He would advise members interested later on. The House .ose at 11.50 p.m. WELLINGTON, August 13. The House met at 2.30 p.m. FINANCIAL DEBATE.

At the conclusion of the formal business, the debate on the Budget was resumed by Mr W. D. Lysnar Gisborne), who proceeded to criticise the administration of the Meat Board. He said the board claimed to have secured a reduction in freights, which, it claimed, conferred great advantages on the farmers. He maintained that the freight contract entered into by the board was a distinct disadvantage to the producers, because it eliminated competition. It was this contract which shut out the farmers’ steamer, the Admiral Codrington, from the New Zealand trade. That steamer could make two trips per year and reap a profit of £20,000 per trip. That meant she was earning 20 per cent, on the boom price at which she was bought—and that without any back cargo, which shipping influences prevented her getting. With these freights she could have earned nearly 100 per cent. That showed what high freights were being earned by the shipping companies, and it was these high freights which were keeping up the price of British goods. He congratulated the Minister of Finance on the simplicity and the lucidity of the Budget. At the same time he regretted the necessity for a continuation of borrowing. He recognised the necessity for development and in this connection he denounced the neglect in pushing on with the East Coast railway. That was a necessity, but new stations at Wellington, Christchurch, and Auckland were luxuries. These works would not cause an extra ton of goods to be handled, but the line to Gisborne would open up new areas of country and great avenues of traffic.

Sir John Luke (Wellington North) said that when he was in England some years ago he made inquiries amongst people who should know regarding the usefulness of the Meat Board, and he was pleased to say he had heard nothing but the highest ecomiums regarding the usefulness of the board. He congratulated the board cn carrying out a very difficult task. He believed in agricultural education and agricultural colleges, but he implored the Government not to overstep itself in the matter of expenditure in this connection. Discussing the Budget he referred to the repeated surpluses during the past few years. Out of those surpluses we made contributions to the Public Works Fund of £14,300,000, and upon that fact the Government was to be congratulated. It needed a stout heart to face the difficulties of our present situation —difficulties which were not of our own making, but

which arose out of circmstances over which we had no control. . PRIME MINISTER’S SPEECH.

Mr J. G. Coates (Prime Minister), who rose at 4.20 p.m., said he was very pleased with the tone of the debate so far as it had gone. Members had not been extravagant in their demands, notwithstanding the pressure which he knew was behind them for district requirements. It was quite evident the feeling of the House was that the Budget was a clear and concise statement of the country’s finance, and the Minister well deserved the many commendations he had received during the course of the debate. The Leader of the Opposition, whose absence from the House they all regretted, had complained that the Government's policy was barren, and had urged that the finances should be organised for carrying on national works for the repayment of the national debt. Mr Holland had not suggested how this was to be done. He (Mr Coates) agreed that for local purposes the country should depend on its own resources, but to attempt to complete railways, hydroelectric power, and similar works out of local funds, would be absurd. Local wealth could not be organised to do that, because we had not wealth enough. We must borrow outside the country for such purposes, but we should apply commercial principles to such loans and set aside sinking funds that would secure their repayment. It had been said that there were too many motor cars in the country, and that the farmers had too many motor cars. He contended it was not possible for the Government to control the activities of individuals, and the Government was not going to try. There was too much of that

Iready, and they could not stop people buying motor cars.' A factor which was hampering the farmers more than motor cans was the local rating. The position was that the users of roads should pay for them, and they were not doing it. The taxation was about £3 per car, but the cost of upkeep on the main highways was £6 per car, and who was paying that extra £3.' Clearly, the rural districts were being asked to pay for a better class of road than they required for themselves, and the Government would later on bring down proposals which, he hoped, would give the primary producers some relief in this respect. He agreed that on e of the best ways to overcome the present agricultural difficulties was by means of cheap fertilisers, and he urged lending institutions to subsidise farmers in procuring fertilisers because there was no better way of overtaking deterioration, and there could not be too big a supply of cheap fertilisers. The Government had been blamed for not providing sufficient money for farmers. It had put legislation on the Statute Book setting up a Rural Credits Board. That board was now functioning, and appplications were receiving every consideration. The scheme had vet to be completed by further legislation, and he hoped that, as they would finish it oft, the rural credits scheme would be of some real service to the farming community. He defended the Government's railway policy in subsidising non-paying branch railways, because that was putting them on a commercial basis. This expenditure was most critically scrutinised by the Treasury. There was no waste under this system, and the Government was going on with the policy because it believed that it was sound, and that it would come out all right. With regard to the administration of loan moneys, he would never consent to the board supervising pi lie works expenditure, but he did not object t. criticism. There might be as much examination as they liked, but the allocation of the Public Works Fund was purely a matter of Government policy. The case was different with local bodies, and it would have been better if we had had a local bodies loan control board 20 years ago, for there undoubtedly had been much local body expenditure which had been unwise. The complaint had been made that insufficient New Zealand coal was used on our railways, but the Government was making investigations r.s to how our brown coals could be made serviceable for that purpose. There was no doubt this coal could be carbonised, but it was all a question of price, and they were no awaiting the economic reSults. He defended • loan of £15,000 to the Broadcasting Company on the ground that that loan insured a vastly more powerful station, which would enable them to communicate with the whole of the Pacific. What was a cheaper way than the Government becoming responsible for the whole wireless outfit. since no one knew exactly what was going to happen to wireless? In liscussing our trade relations with the Empire and the rest of the world, it was cessary always to remember that before Great Britain could release herself from her war entanglements other countries, which had no sucli entanglements, had been seeking to capture her markets, but it was quite wrong to suppose that Britain was down and out. She was making a marvellous industrial recovery, in spite of strikes or lockouts, or whatever they might be called, anil her export trade was now in value within 15 per cent, of her pre-war outfit.

V. hen the House resumed at 7.30 p.m., the Prime Minister continued his speecn, stating that just as British trade was recovering rapidly so the position ,f British shipping was improving, being now 67 per tent. of the world’s shipping as compared with 62 per cent, in 1913. Britain was certainly the greatest foreign trading country in the world, and it was extraordinary how such a little country could more than hold her own. He had dealt with this subject because Britain's position had been questioned bv the member for Auckland Central, and he welcomed that criticism because it was encouraging to see that a member of the Labour Barty, and the Labour Party generally, were taking a keen interest in the development of trade, because our prosperity depended to a great extent on the prosperity of Britain’s people. They had faced great difficulties, and had made great efforts to pay off huge war debts, and it, was cur duty to help them in their strugg;;. It should not always be a case of buying in the cheapest market, but of buying m the market of greatest interest to us, and be believed the people of the Dominion generally would adopt that policy. Coming to the Question of agricultural education, be said the Government s idea in setting up agricultural colleges was to enable farmers tj get the best possible results at the least possible cost. At the Massey College they had commenced on quite new lines, and were calling to their aid the best in practical knowledge to manage the. college. He asked farmers and the public to exercise patience and not to expect expensive *esuits all at once. But the foundations had been laid, and he was confident that the college would be of great benefit to the country. The Government’s policy, which he had been able only briefly to outline, was designed to promote the best interest of all classes, and no effort would be spared to give sympathetic and practical effect to that nolicy. Mr 11. Holland (Christchurch North) said that the bulk of the criticism of the Government had l>ccn from members who denounced it for increasing the National Debt, while at the same time they inconsistently censured it for not borrowing enough.

Mr W. Downie Stewart (Minister of Finance) said it was impossible ' >r him to reply to all of the 50 speeches which had been delivered during the course of the debate. For instance, one member

said there were too many ..harks in Hauraki Gull, but the Government could not bo expected to look after the sharks in the sea. They had enough to do to look after the land-sharks. One of the subjects mentioned during the debate w. s the position of the Advances Department, and he had been asked to state whr* the position was. No doubt members wc being bombarded by applicants, but he understood in some eases that as many as six members visited the departmmt on the same day in the interests of the same applicant, as well as the app.icant himself. They were now dealing with housing applications for June of last year, and with settlers applications of August of last year. Further, in 1924 they had 7000 applicants for £9,500,000, "ut in 1927 there were .uly 4500 applicants for £4,900,000. The experience of the department was that there were emptv houses in 30 towns, and in view of this it was necessary for the department to pursue a cautious policy. He did not know why those houses had come back on to the department’s hands, but possibly it as a case of unemployment, or that the second mortgagee was forcing the occupants out. As the matter stood, the department would have to consider whether it would not be better to help people to finance into older houses than to encourage the building of new houses. With regard to rural advances, there had been no delay or holding up of applications for want of money. Of £500.000 put into this fund only about £lOO,OOO had been paid out, and they were urging people to get their mort .s completed so that they could issue rural credit bonds against the completed mortgages. The scheme for intermediate credits was a complicated one, and the Government was seeking to find a way by which 'he scheme, when put into operation, would be of real benefit to the settlers. Reports received by him indicated that the rural bonds would be most favourably received, and would be readily sought after on the St .°? k . Exchanges. He traversed the criticism levelled against the Government by Mr M Combs last night, contei ding that his statements were wide of the' mark, and were calculated tc disparage the position of the Dominion. Instead of doing that he would have thought Mr M'Combs would have felt a pride in the fact that New Zealand’s position i.i the British money market was so good. The Government had been blamed for raising the rate of interest under the Advances Department, but the fact had been overlooked that together with the increase in the rate of interest the term of the loan had been extended, so that under this arrangement many of the borrowers were benefiting. It was absurd to say that the Government had r..ised the rate of interest at the dictation of tlm large financial institutions. Sir Joseph Ward had suggested that Australia was making better efforts to pay off her debt than we were, and he mentioned the fact that she had arranged a sinking fund on a debt of BSOO.OOOiOOO. As a matter of fact her sinking fund was on more than £300,000,C00, and it covered the whole of the Commonwealth debt, but for some reason Sir Joseph suggested that we were not carrying out" a similar scheme, and, in fact, at one stage lie suggested we had no sinking fund. The position had frequently been explained, ! but a brief restatement might be neces-’ sary. Under the Public Debt Extinction Act, 1910, provision was made for the repayment of the public debt bv a sinking fund, which had to accumulate at compound interest for 75 years. This scheme was regarded as satisfactory at the time, but experience had shown certain disadvantages attached to it. it meant that a huge sinking* fund was accumulating, which would all fall due at a specified date and involve a vast scheme of realisation. Moreover, apart from the surplus revenue there was no moneyavailable to redeem loans that matured in the interim, so as to enable the Treasury to take advantage of any favourable offers of buying stock below par before maturity loans had to be renewed from time to time. Although there were actuallysinking funds in existence to redeem them, this _ meant a loss through unnecessarily loading the loans with two or three charges. The problem of debt reduction had, of course, been greatly accentuated by the big increase in the National Debt during and since the war period. While the usual sinking fund was a quite suitable and sound method of repaying a relatively small and specific loan it was now clearly seen to be impracticable as a method for reducing the public debt The Repayment of Public Debt Act. 1925, I was designed to overcome these difficulties, and to obviate the weakness of the Public Debt Extinction Act. It was modelled exactly on the British system, and was almost an exact copy of the Australian National Debt Sinking Fund Act, 1923. In a speech made last November in London the Prime Minister of Australia explained the working of their sinking fund, which provided, as ours did. for a half per cent, every year cut of the Consolidated Fund on the' debt which fell under this scheme. The sinking fund was used to repurchase loans on the market, and the stock was then cancelled, but the .interest on the cancelled stock was continued at fixed rates and paid into the sinking fund to represent the accumulated interest that would have accrued had no reduction taken place. As in Australia, so in New Zealand, the fund had chiefly been used for the redemption of the war debt as a debt against which no tangible assets had been -created. The accumulated sinking fund was thus ineluded in the redemption fund amounting to £11,250.000. and also on the amount of £13,500.000 advanced out of the Consolidated Fund for the settlement of discharged soldiers. The interest earned on these capital sums enabled us to redeem the debt with a lesser charge on the tax-

payers than in Australia. Under our present system the debt would be redeemed m 60 years from its inception instead of at the expiry of 75 years under the old system. In effect the new system meant that the debt would be repaid under the annuity plan after tlje manner of the table mortgage, lhe annual charges would be practically the same, but there would be less interest and more principal paid or repaid each year. This was the essence of the new scheme. It might be of interest to note that the States of Australia in transferring their debts to the Commonwealth had agreed that these would also come under a "similar system of debt reduction. He quoted authorities to show that financial experts were of the opinion that the present practice was the best, and he felt sure, if ‘ < ’* r J° s . e Ph Ward had the opportunity of examining the new system, he would find there was much to recommend it. The Government had been criticised for not proposing a decrease in taxation, and for not decreasing expenditure. There had been very little constructive criticism, and no one had shown them that our taxation could be reduced and our expenditure lowered. He coula reduce the burden of Customs taxation by increasing duties to such an extent as to stop imports, and then claim that taxation had been reduced. The fact that we had revenue of £8,000,000 from Customs did not necessarily mean that our duties were high. So far as the land tax was concerned, the men on top of the scale were paying fairly high, and in othei cases nearly the whole of their revenue tva-s being eaten up in local rates, and it’ lands taxation was to be reviewed this liosition would have to be taken into consideration. Income tax would come up for review when the annual bill came down. Here, again, the people at the top were paying pretty high, and it was wrong to, say that the recent remissions in taxation were all in favour of the rich people. On the general question as to whether the land tax was 1 preferable t° ta i X ’ HS lm P resslon was that the Preferred the land tax while the larger landowners would prefer tax Company taxation could not renewed at this stage because there . S '? a . n ger of loss of revenue, but he was keeping an open mind on the merits' of the contending views regardinc this subject He thanked membS fo? tlw r favourable reception of the Budget Finance mO at IO H ,noved . b * v the Minister of “That lb? n ' ° P ! ning of the debateof Sunni °’‘ Se n d ° S ° into Committee 11 . was then put and carried.

THE ESTIMATES. In the absence of the Chairman r>r r* rt-^Kb^t^^^ o-morrow afternoon. He moved the id 'rim TT ELLINGTON. August 19. J he House met at 2.30 p.m. to-day. THE ESTIMATES. The House then wont into Committeef'CSupply to consider the first item on the departments. 19 ’" 3 f " 1 ’ t! ‘ C Ie S if * la tive Mr J A. Lee (Auckland East) attacked the Government for lending £15,000 t?m< fK ,rOadC m ti,,g Coin Pany. He hoped that this would not mean that special privileges for broadcasting would be given to the Reform Party which were denied to other political parties The Government, which would not advance money for housing, was prepared to lend a private company such a substantial sum as £]:_>,ooo on second mortgage. This was a piece of downright political patronage.

Mr M. A. Veitch (Wanganui) said an alarming feature about this grant was that all might not have been discovered, lhere might be other transactions. Mr W. Nosworthy (PostmasterGeneral) : This is a nasty insinuation. Mr Veitch said it was the only logical conclusion he could come to in view of the Minister's silence on the subject. After further criticism of this loan Mr Nosworthy said the money was lent before he took over the portfolio of PostmasterGeneral. At the same time lie was satisfied the Government was amply secured by the second mortgage ou the land over which the Bank of New Zealand held a first mortgage, and it also held security over the company's debentures. The Government had lent the money in order to secure a broadcasting station of exceptional power iu the capital city of the Dominion, and party funds or political favours had nothing whatever to do with it.

Mr A. M. Samuel (Ohinemuri) urged reconsideration of the scale of licensing fees. The fee for the largest set was 30s and the fee for the smallest crystal set wag just the same. He thought the fees should be graduated according to the value of the receiving set. Mr E. J. Howard (Christchurch South) said that no one had ever beard of the owner of a valuable receiving set being prosecuted. It was only boys with crystal sets who were ever prosecuted, and they never annoyed anyone. In the matter of receiving news from Britain, the Government was not favouring list-eners-in, who were paying, and paying dearly for it. The Minister was all on the side of the company. The fact was the Minister knew nothing at all about wireless. He was merely a rubber stamp in the hands of the company, and he had muddled this department as much as he had muddled Samoa.

Mr M, J. Savage (Auckland West) complained that the Broadcasting Company was putting a censorship on some individuals. but was granting facilities to Ministers of the Crown. There was no public

question on which a Minister could speak that was not political. If anyone who was a representative of the people wanted to speak to the people he sliotild have the same right to do so as a Minister. Mr Howard said that when the Wellington s ation was opened the Leader of the Opposition was not only not invited to speak, but was told there was no room tor him.

Mr Nosworthy : I know nothing about that.

Mr Howard: That is just my complaint. The hon. gentleman knows nothing about it. Continuing, Mr Howard com" plained that the Post Office was beiiw employed to do the dirtv work of the company by prosecuting boys using small sets.

Mr Nosworthy said the real reason beInnd the Labour Party's criticism was that it had no time for broadcasting, because during the recent great strike in Great Britain broadcasting was the only means the people had of knowing what was going on. He had frankly explained the position of the Government and the Broadcasting Company, and some of the insinuations made amounted almost to in-

Mr Veitch asked why, before advancing the £15.000 to the Broadcasting Company, the Minister did not insist on. the company calling up more of itg- capital, and why was it that this particular company headed by a particular gentleman, had been so specially treated. Mr Savage said the assets of the company totalled £20,000. The Bank of NewZealand had advanced £5OOO and the Government had lent £15,000. Where did the shareholders come in ? The discussion was proceeding when the House adjourned at 5.30 p.m? When the House resumed at 7.30 p.m. the discussion on the Estimates was continued by Air AV. S. Glenn (Rangitikei), who advocated more mobile self-contained trains in order to compete more efficiently with the motor traffic.

Mr M. J. Savage asked the Government to make a declaration of its policy on the question of wireless censorship. Was the wireless system of broadcasting to be as open to one political party 'as to an.other party?

Mr R. APKeen (Wellington South) complained that the Radio Record issued by the Broadcasting Company was using its columns to promote political propaganda in the interests of the Government that had been very good to the company. Air I’. Fraser (Wellington Central) drew attention to the vote for the citv librarian for the General Assembly Library. He said the position was advertised at £5OO but the gentleman whom the Government wanted to appoint—an editor of a lieform paper—demanded a salary of £750. and said he would not come for less, lhe vote on last year’s Estimates showed a salary at £5OO, but now they saw that the gentleman was to get £2OO as controller of a Dominion archives and £5O as director of the Turnbull Library, in addition to the £5OO he had demanded, which was, to say the least, a backdoor method of giving one applicant the salary he insisted on getting. Mr W. Nosworthy said the present iccupant of the position was appointed at £SCO a year. lhe decision to set up an archives’ department was made subsequently, and it had nothing to do with the original appointment. Mr H, T. Arinst rong (Christchurch East) said it was quite clear from the qualifications of the other applicants that this man had to be appointed because he was the right colour, and it was quite evident that the appointee knew before his appointment that he was going to receive £750, which, to say the least, was not cricket.

Mr D. G. Sullivan (Avon) said it was becoming the general impression that advertisements for public positions were merely so much camouflage, and the case of the librarian seemed to be a case in point. The instance was so serious that as the Minister in charge of the department admitted, he knew nothing about it, he thought the House was entitled to a statement from the Prime Minister. Mr Nosworthy reiterated his denial that he knew anything of the creation of the office of controller of archives. When the present librarian was appointed, so far as he was aware, the appointment was for £5OO a year. Cabinet made the additional appointment, and any statement to the contrary was not in accordance with fact.

Air Fraser declared that there had been a lack of candour about this appointment. It was quite clear that Dr Schofield »as to be appointed to the position irrespective of the superior librarian claims of other applicants, because he had been a friend of the Reform leaders, and the Reform Party. The House resumed at 10 o’clock, after the supper adjournment, and within a few minutes the first item on the Estimates was agreed to. A FINANCE BILL. The Prime Minister stated that a short Finance Bill would be introduced on Tuesday, ana considered on Thursday. The Bill would deal mostly with the Post Office. The House rose at 10.10 p.m. till 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday.