DEFENCE EXPENDITURE COMMISSION.

Otago Witness, Issue 3348, 15 May 1918, Page 23

DEFENCE EXPENDITURE COMMISSION.

COLONEL TATE'S EVIDENCE. WELLINGTON, May 6. Before tho Defence Expenditure Commission to-day, Colonel R. N. Tato, Adjutant-general, who in civil life is a solicitor, stated that ho had had no war service. He did not think thero was too much centralisation in General Headquarters. There was at the present some scope for tho fullest exercise of initiative by the district staff commanders. When asked whether in his opinion thero were too many officers, especially of the civilian type, temporarily doing military duty, Colonel Tato said that officers of the civilian type were necessary, as there were very few regular stair officers available. He questioned if tho number could bo reduced.

•The Chairman questioned tho necessity of employing soldiers in the Base Records Department. Why was it necessary for ail those clerks to wear uniforms?

Colonel Tate: The pay J 3 for the work, not for the position. Witness went on to say that it would possibly bo cheaper to employ a purely civil clerical staff, but it was not considered practicable. It was a matter of policy that returned and unfit soldiers should be employed. Pie did not think there were too many men in uniform knocking around. Preference was always given to returned soldiers in filling positions in the department, and these were performing their duties satisfactorily. The salaries, he thought, wero fair, with the exception of those of lieutenants and sub-lieutenants, who should at least be paid the minimum rate for a lieutenant in the New Zealand Permanent Force —viz., £250, or 13s 8d per day—or be granted married allowance. Colonel Valintine gayo an account of the measures taken to combat cerebro-spinal meningitis when it was most virulent at I'rcntham Camp in 1915. When the Trcntham Camp was broken up the epidemic ceased. The steps taken since—the inhalation treatment and the segregation of recruits in a camp other than Trcntham during tho winter months—had been very successful. In winter there was a greater risk of catarrhal diseaso among recruits, and catarrhal diseases predisposed men to cerebro-spinal infection. He did not consider this segregation necessary now. There was no epidemio of disease. Lrieutenant-general Mackgiil said the recruits most liable to infection were hardy young men from tho country, who had lived an open-air life, and had-not faced any danger of infection. "When the Tauherenikau Camp was established for recruits everything was kept very primitive, and the men lived always in the open air. This camp, although for recruits only, was the healthiest of all.

Regimental Sergeant Beanland said he served abroad for three years, and was sent back to Now Zealand after a special course of instruction in England. He was with the Irish Guards for seven weeks, and learned their system. He and 29 others sent to New Zealand •were put on the quartermaster-general'!* staff, but had not been asked to introduce the methods learned m England. Under the battalion system followed in the Irish Guards many less men were required to carry on the quartermaster's work than were employed for a similar number of men at Trentham. He said that Trentham had no time for returned soldiers. g May 7.

Major Gribben, Director of Financial Services, gave further evidenco to-day before the Defence Expenditure Commission. Differential allowances were, he said, made by the Cabinet on tho recommendation of Colonel Gibbon.

Mr T. S. Ronaldson, chairman of the Soldiers' Financial Assistance Board, stated that when the board was satisfied that thero was hardship it could givo relief up to_ £3 per week additional to any wage received, but it had to bo subject to an allotment of 3s 6d per day. For a woman without a child whose husband went to the front that meant £llß 12s a year; £SO a year was the minimum for a woman to feed and clothe herself. The board took into consideration the pre-war earnings of a soldier and the consequent state of living of his wife. It did not take into consideration tho personal earnings of a wife in poor circumstances. If a man were killed the board kept up the help until tho women received a pension. Up to tho end of April tho Minister had approved ci giants in 5191 cases at an annual expenditure of £164,240. After reviewing cases consequent on increased separation allowances made in January, reductions were made totalling £58,810 per annum. There was no overlapping between the board and the patriotic societies.

B. C. Warnes, recalled, dealing with the expense at tho Base Records Office, said he was unable to see the necessity for a deputy director. He complained that trained business men were at tho dictation of inexperienced men. In some caises wearers of uniform drew far larger salaries than those in civilian " clothes occupying higher and more responsible positions or doing tho same work much better.

Second Lieutenant Haydon, Company Sergeant-major Donnelly, Sergeant Carter, Quartermaster-sergeant Gray-burn, special instructors eent out for instructional purposes, attended at tho request of the commission. Their evidenco was to tho effect that they wero given no opportunity of making use here of the experience gained at Home. They wero of opinion that the system of training hero could bo improved by tho knowledge of men liko themselves, just back from the front. Sergeant Grayburn expressed the opinion that the Trentham camp was entirely overstaffed, and high officers wero doing work that could be done by corporals and privates. Tho rationing system at Trcntham was out of date.

May 8. Captain D. O. W. Cossgrove, Director of Recruiting, stated before the Defence Expenditure Commission to-day that he did not think any of tho 227 employees under him could be reduced at present. 'Referring to the methods of bringing men

to tho colours after their names had been drawn in tho ballot, the chairman asked: Aro tho clergy essential? Witness: They are accepted as such. Tho Chairman: Are school teachers exempted? Witness: They arc not regarded as essential. They have not taken advanatgo of the right to appeal. The Chairman; .And Roman Catholic clergy and theological students and others? Witness: They can apply to the Minister for a certificate, which is accepted b-v tho Military Service Board as sufficient evidenco of their being essential, and tho appeals of such men aro adjourned sine die. The board need not necessarily adjourn such an appeal sine die. Its jurisdiction is not interfered with by the Minister's certificate. Captain Cossgrove went on to say he did not consider that there was any overlapping between hia work and that of tho group commanders in tho districts except under very special circumstances, nor was there too much centralisation in Wellington. He did not agree with tho estimate submitted to the commission that it ccst the department over £13.000 as a minimum in about a year to send out notices to 84.000 men drawn in the ballot. Tho Chairman asked : In a case in which a man has been called in the ballot, and asks for leave for an urgent matter, such as finishing harvesting, do you insist on his proceeding to camp until the Military Service Board is ready to hear his appeal? Captain Cossgrove replied: The man must go to camp. May 9. Before the Defence Expenditure Commission to-day, H. E". Manning, builder and contractor, Wellington, said he considered there was a combine in Wellington for running tho whole fitting cut of the transports. Tho Minister was right out to see the thing to the bottom. Most of tho Government goods had been supplied by a certain Wellington firm, which had been making a very good thing out of it. Witness alleged that there was somo waste of timber ordered for troopship work. Lieutenant-colonel T. W. M'Donald, of tho General Staff, Wellington military district, was also examined. Ho emphasised tho fact that both partly-trained Territorials and untrained civilians wero put on the same level of training, and that a Territorial with several years' training was squadded with wholly untrained men, and told that lie must forget all ho had previously learned. He gave details to show" that, exclusive of bombing and other practice, tho training of New Zealand Territorial men in camp need be only 44 days. He estimated tho loss which resulted from unnecessary time taken up by training in New Zealand was: Territorials £326,400, civilians £173,600, making a total of £500,000. The loss to the community by reason of these men being taken from productive labour he estimated at £500,000, making a total loss per annum of £1.000,000, or a total dinoo tho war began of £3,000,000. He contended that the establishment of camps was excessive. Witness submitted a schedule showing a loss of over £2,000,000 which the country had suffered through lack of organisation, combination, and supervision in New Zealand only. There was waste of ammunition used by the Cadets, who were supplied with cartridges costing £8 per 10CO, instead of cartridges costing 255. When he made a suggestion once he was told to mind his own business, aiid other suggestions wero ignored. May 10. Giving evidence before the Expenditure Commission to clay, Major-Ueneral Robin, Commandant, said there was no necessity for allowing a longer period between the date of the ballot and tho actual calling into camp of men who had had considerable Terrifcorial training. The Samoan main body and the earlier reinforcements practically depleted the Territorial force of all eligible men 20 years of age and over. It was due to this that the Siamoan force main body and the first reinforcements were able to proceed without preliminary training. Tho Territorial scheme was introduced in 1911, and ib required seven years to become fully established or automatic in its action. The present war thus fell upon the scheme 3jt years before it was fully developed, but, even so, it had right well proved its value. A considerable portion of the expenditure of the Territorial scheme had been in provisions, drill halls, offices, field guns, rifles, equipment, etc. When tho war broke out these supplies had been drawn on, and had resulted in tho. Expeditionary Force being able to leave completely equipped. Territorial training was not ignored when lads went into expeditionary camps. An analysis would show that it was they who had principally gained officer and n.c.o ranks. It was never contended, however, that Territorial training was sufficient to fit men for actual service in the field. Tho system was based o'i the timo that could be spared from civilian life, not on what was considered sufficient by military advisers; based, in fact, on the principle that it would be better to have half a loaf than none. Unless, therefore, they equipped and trained their men to bo disciplined en route to the front, and enabled them to meet and hold their own with the enemy, and to be in a state at once to go on with special training in England, they would send them to possible death and defeat for want of training. To suggest reducing the period of training in camp hero merely in order to reduce the expenditure at the expense of efficiency was a grave and serious responsibility for the Government or its military advisers to undertake. Training and discipline were essential. Regular authentic reports from abioad supported the system adopted by New Zealand, and although repeated inquiries had been made, thero was so far no evidence of a suggestion sufficiently sound to reduce the period of training in New Zeal'ii;d. It would bo disastrous entirely to suspend the Territorial Force during the war or to altogether cease training cadets and youths until they reached the age of liability under the Military Service Act. Twelve months ago he commenced to draft proposals for the future training of a dominion fo: - ce after tho war. These wero still under construction for consideration by the Government as soon as possible after peace was declared. Tho terms of peace and the experience of tho war must, however, bo a. governing factor in arriving at a decision of actual details to be prepared in conferenco with the returned higher Staff and Territorial officers in whom tho public would have confidence. He was afraid that suggestions made to tho Commission in this respect were tho result of conversation between himself and various officers at a conference held in October, which was attended by O.C.Q'S. and G.S.O'S. Defending the appointment of Imperial officers in New Zealand, witness poinfced-\out" that the forces must of necessity ho 'alike in training and equipment if

they wore to co-oporato in field standardisation. It was even more necessary in tho military machine than in the- big business concerns of tho world. He v.-as unablo to release ihoso Imperial officers at present employed in Now Zealand, becauso so far the equivalent in experienced officers had not yet returned to tho dominion to enable this to be done. May 11. Before the Defcnco Expenditure Commission to-day, Mr A. D. Thomson, Assistant Public Service Commissioner, stated that there wero two authorities supplying staffs to the military branch. This was unsatisfactory. Tho Public Service Commissioner had no control over the home service branch. This dual control created dissatisfaction. Military and civilian ofheer3 were working side by side, and the former got extra pay. A soldier was paid, not according to tho work ho did, but according to tho rank ho held. Questioned on tho subject of frauds, witness said there had really been nothing to complain about, apart from a few irregularities in connection with stores. Tho Chairman said that New Zealand was tho only country ho knew of which had passed through the war period without some frauds in connection with military organisation being discovered. Tho contention was made by Major Norton Francis who is in charge of the ,Baso Records, that Lieutenant-colonel P.' W. M'Donald was wrong in his figures as to tho saving that could bo effected by having the base records and war expenses branches under one roof. Ma3.y office men in uniform were unpaid. Tho practice in his department was to employ returned soldiers and unfit men. The Chairman said the point wae that it was inadvisable to keep fit men in jobs until men were available. Major Francis said he did not understand that it was the policy to dischargo returned soldiers because their work could bo done by women. The statement that the women's correspondence branch was notallowed to approach witness as director was contrary to fact. Any sectional head could go to him direct. The Chairman said tho commission had never once been able to trace a case in which the Minister of Defence had interfered with any appointment. May 13. Giving evidence before tho Defence Expenditure Commission, Colonel Adams,Commandant at Feathcrston, and Colonel Potter, Commandant at Trenthara, said they wero anxious to get away to the front, but were refused permission. Both agreed that if they were responsible for the training of the men there would bo healthy emulation between the two camps. The system of transferring men from one camp to another resulted in the employment of a considerable number of men and a great deal of trouble. Tho reason for the transfers was based on medical grounds. Homo service men wero not transferred. Both witnesses were in favour of the battalion system, and said if it was left to them they could carry out the training of tho men if they had the proper instructors.

(Feou Oub Own Corkespond t £NT ) WELLINGTON, May 13.

The Defence Expenditure Commission will probably conclude the hearing': of evidence to-morrow, and the following day the members of the commission will go to Palmerston to prepare the report. Mr'-Peter Barr is itill far too unwell to go, and it ia now possible that he will not even bo able to sign the report when it is prepared.