SOLDIERS' LIABILITIES.

Otago Witness, Issue 3275, 20 December 1916, Page 23

SOLDIERS' LIABILITIES.

HON. MR ALLEN INTERVIEWED. OUTLINES OE GOVERNMENT SCHEME. A deputation representing the Otago Pattriotio and General Wetiaro Association waited on the Hon. Mr Allen, Acting Prime Minis-tcr and Minister of Defence, on the 12th inst. at the Grand Hotel, to bring betore linn the position 01 men the war who have financial obligations. The members of the deputation were the Mayor of Dunedin (Mr J. J. (Jlark), the Hon. J. T. Paul, Mr J. Loudon, and Colonel Stoneham. Mr C. E. Statham. M.P., and Mr T. K. Sidoy, M.P., were aiso present. The Mayor stated the case for the deputation. The association was prepared to do for the men called up compulsorily what it had done for the men who had voluntarily given their services. It was found that many of the men had financial responsibilities, and if they went it simply meant ruin to them. He instanced the case of a man with a salary of £3OO, a wife, and one child. Ho had a mortgage of £SCO and other dobt-3 running into £IOO. It was obviou; lie could not get as much it of Irs pay as a private as he was getting at the present time. Another man who had offered had built up a small business and had only £SO owing on his plant. Pie had purchased a house and shop, which he was paying off at the rate of 30s a week. that man went he could not keep up the claims upon him. If men like those went away under present conditions they would lose everything. It was surely right that when they returned their property should still bo available for them, and that all they would loso was what they might have paid off in the year they were away; that their insurances policies should be kept good, and that something should be done for them in the way of remitting rates and taxes. An extension of the Moratorium Act might meet the case, or the Government might make a grant, as it was doing at Home, to assist men to keep their property together till they came back. He asked that the Government would take the matter into its consideraion and formulate a scheme to help these men.

Colonel Stoneham said the Military Service Boards were exempting men for financial obligations. This meant that these men were being exempted while other men were called upon to go.

The Hon. Mr Paul said the association wanted tho Government to recognise- the fairness, the decency, of placing these men's burdens on the shoulders of tho State. Of course, tho State would have to make itself liable for a very largo sum of money. Mr J. Loudon thought if a man was called up tho Public Trustee, under a board to be appointed, should take charge of his estate and see it did not suffer in his absence. THE MINISTER'S REPLY.

The Hon. Mr Allen, in reply, said he hoard the deputation with every sympathy, became he knew the difficulties that had faced them. There wore also d.faculties that had faced the Government, probably before the association was confronted with them. He 'wished to make it plain that tho Government, in fixing the pay and allowances of soldiers, had only one course to pursue, and that was to fix the pay for, approximately, the lowest paid labour in the country. They could not fix it at £3OO or £SOO a year; they could only fix it at the lowest rate. Therefore, they arranged that the private should receive 35s a week, and in this connection ho wished to draw attention to tho very great difference there was between tho pay of the private in England and tho pay of the private in New Zealand, because they were face to face there earlier than New Zealand with the problems of separation allowance for wife and children and charges respecting rent, insurance, hens on furniture, and so on. Up to a month ago, enlistment in this dominion was voluntary, and it might therefore bo assumed that tho men who had volunteered fnlt they could make arrangements to enable them to go away, certainly with sacrifice, and great sacrifice, but such sacrifice as they could make without serious detriment to thcse_ they were leaving behind. When compulsion was introduced, a different ' condition of things prevailed, and as Minister of Defence he had advised tho Government that they were bound to take theso new conditions into consideration. Ho wanted to let the public know tho position of a private, a single man, regarding pay. A single man with, no dependents received 35s a week; lie had his board and lodging found for him, worth, say, 20s a week, and ho had his clothing and boots provided, worth, say, 7s 6d a week. A married man, with wife and ono child, drew 35s a week; 7a a week for separation allowance, and 5s 3d for the child l , or 47s 3d a week in cash for himself, his wife, and child.. In addition, that man received his board and lodging (20s), and clothing and boots (7s 6d). or "a total of £3 14s 9d a week, equal to £194 a year. Iho man whose case was quoted by tho deputation was, therefore, making a big sacrifice in giving up £3OO and reoeiving £194. If a man had a widowed mother, of whom he was the solo support, she would receive 7s a week. With regard to tho widowed mother, ho recognised that tho definition of "sole support?' was inadequate, and only a few days ago Cabinet had agreed to alter it, and now a widowed mother, if she was only partially dependent on tho soldier, would be able to receive a separation allowance to this extent, that if she had £250 of capital in a savings bank or elsewhere, it would not be counted against her, and she would still receivo the separation allowance. if she had, from any source, 7s a week of income the separation allowance of 7s would still be availablo to her, and with this income tho widowed mother of a labouring man would not bo in a bad position. He thought it would be conceded, too, that, with his pay and allowances, tho ordinary labouring man was not in a bad position. There wero cases,_ however, where labouring men might be in a losing position, and certainly where men of the middle class, rcoeiving £3OO or £4OO a year, were badly off, •■specially if they had liabilities with regard to rent, insurance, and so on. This matter was under consideration long beforo coniI ulsion came- into force, but when compulsion was resorted to tho Government had

to do something, and ho was prepared to recommend the Government to make provision for those cases so far as rent, insurance, and various other items were concerned. For some time lie had had in his possession tho basis of a proposal to submit to the Government, but it had been held over to allow of consultation with the Military Servico Boards, which had been summoned to meet in Wellington on the 15th to discuss this and other questions. 110 hoped that, as a result of this conference, a definite proposal would be submitted to Cabinet.

Referring to the matter of undue hardship, tho Minister said that, on this ground, men were now being exempted from ser-

vice who would bo available for servico at the front if provision were made against undue hardship, and in order to get these men ho was prepared to submit proposals, which were in concrete form already, to make somo provision, at any rate, for men who would otherwise be exempted because of undue hardship. He thought that when the scheme was placed before Cabinet it would meet a great many of tho difficulties that had arisen, owing especially to the bringing in of the compulsory clauses of the Act.

On the question of firms and business, ho wished to say they had not neglected these matters, which had been under consideration for some time They had been in communication with the Farmers' Unions —ho did not know that they had been in close touch with the businesses m the cities, which wore more difficult to get at—and he was pleased to be able to say that in almost every district .the Farmers' Unions and the local farmers had a rough-and-ready organisation in existence under which the farmers themselves were letting away their neighbouring farmers, taking over their farms to manage them in their absence. That system wanted extending, and certain proposals wero almost _ in concrete form. With regard to farm labour, it was a difficult problem, and the boards wero being called together in order to communicate to them that there wero certain industries which were essential —as essential as tho fighting at tho front. The men must be fed and clothed, and certain classes of labour wero more important if retained in tho country than if thoy wero sent away. There was tho coal mining for one, as it was the basis of many industries. Also, there was the woollen industry, a great producing industry. Tho meat, butter, and cheese industries were also essential, not onjy to feed our own people, but tho people of tho Mother Country and tho army. The businesses in a city was a much more difficult problem to solve, and the Government would be glad to receive suggestions for its solution. The question of utilising the labour of the for home service had been occupying his mind for Eomc time, and ho had before him proposals prepared by the department with regard to the matter. It would be realised, however, that one had to tread very carefully when dealing with a tremendous subject like the commandeering of tho whole of the populace and tho labour of tho country and placing it where the Government thought it ought to be placed. One might take a horse to the water, but one could not make him drink ; and he would like to know from the Labour people whether they were prepared to discuss with tho Government a problem of that kind. At any rate, it was too big a problem for him to face until Mr Massey and Sir Joseph Ward came back, but it was well to remember it was a problem that was. being faced in tho Homo Country at the present time to some extent. Germany was facing it, and if we were to win this war wo might have to face it too. It was, ho repeated, a big question, and it depended largely on the willingness of tho Labour organisations throughout the country to fall into line with it or not. He would like to hear what the Labour people had to say about it. The Hon. Mr Paul had suggested that the Government should take tho whale of the people of the country for servico at home at soldiers' pay, with the allowances and grants made to soldiers at tho front. With regard to tho conscription of wealth, he was in accord with Mr Paul, en general principles, that wealth, especially the wealth created owing to the war, ought to be taxed. He would not say the whole of it ought to be conscripted, because such a question would, have to come before Cabinet, and must wait until the return of the Prime Minister 'and the Minister of Finance. There had already been a considerable conscription of wealth, including a tax of 45 per cent, on war profits. Reverting to the question of businesses, he said, as Mr Loudon had pointed out, men who had built up businesses were called up by the ballot. Those men might be examined by the Military Service. Boaid if their case was one of unduo hardship, but here again came in the question that ho might want them more urgently at the front, and that ho might have to do something to help th?m ro keep their businesses together. A p.opofial of that nature was embodied in th. 1 proposals ho hoped to have discussed on the 15tn snst., and which, shortly after that, he hoped to place before Cabinet. As for the suggestion that the Public Trustee might deal with the problem, it seemed to him if was one that would have to bo met in tho way they wero meeting the farmers' difficulties—that was, by local organisations. As to the cost of living, it might bo that a great statesman would yet arise who would prevent the cost of living increasing in war time, but such a man had not arisen yet. He would like it understood that tho Government was doing something, at any rate, to prevent an undue rise in tho cost of living. To show their difficulty ho would givo an instance of what had happened. They knew the country was threatened with a rise in tho price of butter. They wero determined that butter should not rise—indeed, thoy were satisfied the price ought to be reduced, and the action they took kept down tho price. Then, of course, they wero at once up against the producer of butter. Ho did not know whether they had pleased tho community generally or not, but did tho best they could under the circumstances. Respecting the question of wheat and flour and bread, immediately an incroaso was threatened in tho prico of bread the Hon. Mr MacDonald brought down a proposal to take the duty off flour, and that was done. It was honed that would steady tho price of broad, and that there would'bo no rise. Ho desired to say to (hose who produced bread that it was in their own interests to take every care and not to allow a rise in the price of bread. Tho question of (ho duty on wheat was not yet settled. A conference was being called in Wellington with respect to tho question, and if anything was decided there it might also have a steadying effect on tho price of bread. But when they came to this question of wheat thoy were up against

the problem of whether the country wanted its wheat to bo grown on its own lands or imported. If tho former, they must sec to it that their farmers did not make a loss, but a reasonable profit for their work. Thoy could not compel a farmer to sow wheat, and they could not expect him to bo patriotic enough to sow it at a loss. f Mr Louclou : Unless you guarantee him a fixed price. The Hon. Mr Allen said ho was not goins into the question of a fixed prico, because that would probably be discussed at the conference. With regard to meat, when the new price was fixed tho condition was that tho local price was not to be raised. He understood that in somo localities there had been a rise, and the method by which it was made, so ho heard, was that instead of actually raising tho prico the butchers were charging something for delivery. He considered that was rather getting round the agreement como to, and no doubt tho Hon. Mr MacDonald would have tho matter under consideration. Ho thought tho country would agree with him, therefore, thai the Government had not neglected this very serious problem of tho cost of living.

Tho deputation thanked tho Minister for his reply to their requests.