THE LAND BILL,

Otago Witness, Issue 2744, 17 October 1906, Page 14

THE LAND BILL,

THE DEBATE COMMENCED.

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WELLINGTON, October 9. When the House met at 7.30 this evening all the galleries were crowded in anticipation of an interesting debate on the land question. The ladies' gallery was particularly crowded, numbers having to stand. Lady Plunket and the Hon. Kathleen Plunket occupied seats in Mr Speaker's gallery. There was an unusually large gathering of Legislative Councillors, and the three public galleries and the press gallery were also crowded. The Gisborne contingent of members, who had been away at the unveiling of the Captain Cook memorial made their appearance at about 20 minutes to 8 o'clock. Meantime the House marked time with the Parapara clause in the Mining Act Amendment Bill until Mr M'Nab could get his full audience. This bill was good-humouredly stonewalled by Mr Roderick M'Kenzie, but at 8 p.m. Mr M'Gowan, who was in charge of the bill, moved to report progress. This having been done, the Speaker took the chair, and the House at once began to discuss whether or not members should Bb allowed to speak for an hour or- only for* half an hour on the Land BilL The moverof the second reading of a bill is entitled to speak for an hour, whilst other members are limited to half an hour. The Leader of the Opposition had previously suggested that the time should be extended to one hour. Sir Joseph Ward now proposed that Mr Massey be allowed one hour on condition that he (Sir Joseph) was allowed an hour in which to reply to him. Mr Thos. Mackenzie objected to invidious distinctions being made.

" Let us all

Mr Herries supported him. come in," he said.

Mr Massey agreed, and Messrs Major and R. M'Kenzie supported this contention. The latter raised a laugh by stating 'that the whole wisdom of the country was not concentrated in the Premier, the Leader of the Opposition, and the Minister of Lands. Two of these (Sir Joseph Ward and Mr Masse}*) were worn out. — (Laughter),—and an opportunity should be given to let the new members shed some light on the subject. He thought they should be allowed two hours, and, as for himself, he should be allowed a week. — (Laughter). After some discussion the Premier said he would be content with half an hour.

Mt Flatman objected to hour speeches. They would only have, he said, the same twaddle over and over again. "Mr Major: Speak for yourself.—(Laughter.)

Mr Flatman: Never mind; I am speaking to the country. — (Renewed laughter.) At half-past 8 the House, amid a buzz of conversation, divided on an amendment by Mr Alison that all should have an hour. This was defeated, but only by seven votes, the numbers being- 40 to 33. The result was received with applause. Many of the Government freeholders voted with the Opposition. Eventually it -was decided that the Leader of the Opposition should allowed hour. This point having been settled, Mr M'Nab. at 20 minutes to 9, plunged into •n explanation of his much-amended bill.

MR M'NAB'S SPEECH.

The Minister of Lands said that in moving the second readin-g of the bill he had not only got to explain the provisions of the bill ac it originally came down to the House, but also to explain the provisions that were introduced into it in the Lands Committee. On the occasion of the financial debate he had outlined the Government policy in regard to the land question, and when the biil came down from the Government it had followed very closely on tho bines that had been indicated in his speech on the Financial Statement. It was not his intention now to make remarks of a general nature regarding the policy of ihe measure. A very great deal of new matter had been added to it, and he would go straight on to an explanation of the details of the measure. He would deal first with the clauses that had been put into the bill dealing with operations in regard to the private Lands of the colony. The subject of the limitation of private holdings of land was not a new question to this Legislature. The belief in some form of limitation of the aggregation of properties wae fairly general. The Leader of the Opposition had expressed a similar opinion, and the Farmers' Unions ef the colony appeared to consider that a limitation ought to be imposed, at any rate in regard to the aggregation of properties where the- freehold had been ghen to Crown tenants. The Government proposed to pu\ a limitation upon everybody — not to impose a limitation on Crown tenants only, but on those who may in the past have had the freehold. They think that the limitation should be imposed upon all alike, and they have selected the figure of £50,000 as being in their opinion about a fair limitation. The Minister explained the machinery of the bilL He said that he felt confident, after having consulted the officers of the Valuation Department. that whatever changes had been made by sale or tieath in the list of surplus estates "already quoted to hon. members, these changes have been more than made up by the increased number of those that came under the list owing to increased values, and the increased values of those that are already on the list. Therefore, any modification that hon. members had to impose upon the list that was placed upon the table went rather to increase the area of the lands and increase the value of the lands that would be affected. After that excess estate list had been gazetted no further person cou ; d be put on the roll. It was not intended that the list ahould remain open, and people whoso property increased over the value of £50,000 would be placed on the list «s their properties reached that limit. The list would only be opened in the future if the Legislature of the country decides that shall be done. Then owners would have a period of 10 yearo before the Minister of Lands of the day took steps to dispose of the excess. That would operate as an inducement to the men whose names appeared on the list to dispose of their properties fairly early in the period of 10 years, became the man who holds on to his property up! to tho end would not get tho opportunity to get his name off the list, and bo freed from the threat of forced reduction. The Minister explained the working of tho clause in detail. "The reason." he said, " why we ask for power for the Minister to step in and make a selection is this : If we did not give that power, there would be a tendency amongst the land-owners to stand by and not realise their properties at «U; and the last thins tbs <s©vergaje J a.t

of the country wants is that the Minister shall be called in to interfere at all. The power of the Minister to step in and select a portion from that man's property is the punitive clause we have in the bill, and its object ie to insure the disposal of the land for the benefit of the owner. When the Minister comes to dispose of the land, he could sell it under practically the old deferred-payment system, and by that means it is ensured that with reasonable facilities for paying off the money the best price that could be got in the markets of the colony would be secured." Mr M'Nab touched upon the mortgage and bequest clauses of the bill, and also on the £15,000 limit to be imposed on purchasers. There had been a difficulty in separating the second and third class from first class land. He said all these difficulties had melted away under the limitation which placed a limit of value, because if the colony had true values the value ought to make all other things equal. That clause did not prevent any person getting property through a will or intestacy. In regard to mortgages, he said that if the Government had excluded a mortgagee frpm the operation of the bill it might as well have dropped the measure, as before a man purchased a property he would simply get a mortgage over the property. Then the intending vendor had to put himself only in the position of mortgagor in default, and the mortgagee would sell through the registrar of the Supreme Court and buy in as mortgagee, because that is the form that all sales would take. The amendments made by the committee were in effect as follows: — First of all, in the one case of a mortgage where the owner of £50,000 of land was selling and registering a mortgage for the baiance of the unpaid mortgage money, that mortgage did not carry with it the power of sale through the registrar of the Supreme Court to the mortgage provision. The other provision was that mortgages that had been executed before the coming into operation of this act were to be excluded from its operations. Under the next proviso to section 15, when a mortgagee sold and bought through the registrar of the Supreme Court, he was to be allowed to have -two years during which time his title could be registered on the records of the colony. That provided him with time to sell. Under a new sub-clause added to the clause by the Lands Committee there was a general provision to protect a person who had contracted to buy in good faith prior to the operation of the bill. The reason why city lands had not been included was that the result would be that the banking corporations, for instance, would be unable to open branches in all the towns, cities, and boroughs of the colony, because in two or three of the large cities they would, utilige the whole of their maximum The same remark applied to insurance companies and to people carrying on business as merchants, and that class of work.

An Hon. Member: Why not apply it to the farmer?

The Hon. Mr M'Nab: Under the bill the farmer can go into any city or borough and there is no limit on his purchasing land »«»;W» * city. It would prevent competition among merchants and among business men in the colony, and that is all in the interests of the farmers, and I am sorry to see that numbers — not numbere of members of the Chamber, but numbers of people in different parts of the colony — are making out that this exclusion of the lands of cities or of the boroughs is against the interests of the people of the country districts. It is exactly to their interest, liecause if you were to bring all under this exclusion the result would be that you would prevent the competition in business where these people have to go and get their goods and properties insured, and the result would be that in the end it would come to press unduly on the people of the country districts. Coming to the renewable lease, the Minister said that the rent for the second term of 66 years wae to be fixed by valuation where the tenant was represented and the Crown was represented. In , ascertaining the new rent, first of all the fee simple of the land was to be valued. Then the substantial improvements of a permanent character had also to be valued, and then t.he fair yearly rental had got to be ascertained for the second term. It could not be laid down that anything like 4 per cent, or 5 per cent, on the capital value was to be the new rent. If the rate of interest was 2 per cent., then the values of land would rise correspondingly, and if the rate had been fixed at 4 per cent, the result would be that the tenant could not possibly take the land. That was why the rent for the second term was not now laid down. It must be determined by the conditions prevailing at the end of the term. Under the provisions of the bill a renewable lease tenant might pay up to 90 ppr cent, of the value of the land, and then his rent would be reduced to one-tenth. When tho bill had been passing through the Lands Committee that provision had been extended to the 999 years' lease. When 50 per cent, is paid all the restrictive covenants of the lease were to be done away with, except tho one covenant of paying rept, and the conditions of residence. If this is placed on the Statute Book, said the Minister, when the money paid is up to 50 per cent, tho tenant has no longer to consult the Land Board of the district as to what person he may transfer to. Anyone who is able to make the declaration and reside on the land can himself become a purchaser. He has no longer to consult the Land Board as to the rotation of crops on his property, and the check against a tenant making bad use of the land is that he has got so much of his own money invested, and that money is not returned to him until nearly the end of the period. It is my intention when the bill is in committee to ask the committee to extend the benefit that a tenant under the renewable lease has, and I am giving notice now that when the bill is in committee I intend to ask this extension of the privjpges that are given to the tenant under the renewable lease — that is, when he has paid any sum of over 50 per cent., say. 90 per cent., in the event of conditions arising which make it difficult for him to .meet even his small rent that is then due. the Land for Settlements j Board will be able to pay his rent, for a certain length of time to be fixed, out of the money that it has to his credit in tho Land for Settlements Fund. The result will be that h<» may be ablr> to tide over (iv<? or 10 years of depression, so far a* he l* personally concprnod, and the land would not be forfeited for non-payment of ront =o long as there wa« money standing to his credit to be paid into the Consolidated Fund. The result of that would be that in time of calamity he could rost on his oars for many yoars, the rent being paid all the time without one penny of logs to th& countrvj and then f

' times came again to him, he could pay off that money. I think that members will find that with this added on to the 999 years' lease, that form of lease will become 1 very attractive to the tenants of the colony. I would go futher, and say that if this 999 1 years' lease with this provision had been amongst the proposals which the Govern- , ment put before the country at the last general election there would not have been nearly so many men come to this House pledged to the freehold. I say it is infinitely better for the tenants to adopt this plan, and I have no hesitation in saying that if these proposals had been put before the electors of the colony at the last general election there would have been no uncertainty at all ; in fact, there is none. j As to what is going to be done in respect to this clause when it gets into Committee of the House, there is an impression abroad ! that it would never be possible on account j of the special conditions in the Auckland ! district to make the renewable lease attractive to the settlers in that part of the colony. I venture to say that the renewt able lease can be made infinitely more . attractive to the people of Auckland than by giving the absolute sale of the freehold. , The Auckland people were always crying out about their lands being poor. I don't thi ik the 'ands of Auckland are poor at | all. It is the inability of the people at the present time to ascertain the true method of cultivating and of utilising those lands that makes the great bulk of the lands in that part of the country seem poor. The 1 position in regard to the renewable lease section is this: That in 66 years the quality of the land is known, and we can to-day mako any sacrifice we like because at the end of 66 years the colony will be more than recouped, and it is the intention of the Government to act upon that scheme. I do not hesitate to say we would rather give them the land 10, 20, or more years 1 rent free, under this renewable system, knowing that at the end of the term the ' colony would be more than recouped the J expenditure. I would put them on these . lands and give them such facilities as ' would make the system infinitely more at- ' tractive than dumping them on the land 1 as the colony is doing at the present time, 1 giving them very little access in the way of roads to their properties. The Minister added that even if he added on to the Auckland lands all the lands of the co!ony t that were not selected at all, and all the lands that were surveyed but not selected, and all the lands that were unsurveyed and are possibly available for settlement, even ; that, added on to the Auckland lands would ! not make an area equal to what there was t in Otago at the present time. In conclusion, he reverted to the endowment pro- | posals. The proposal of the Government, I he eaid, is that all the lands of the colony 1 that are not disposed under the bill, or are I not being selected under the tenures of the deferred-payment system, the occupation with the right of purchase system, the lease in perpetuity, and the perpetual renewable lease, the whole lot of them should be put by as an annual endowment. The provij sions for that endowment are contained in I clause 3. In clause ♦ the optional syatem j is still maintained in regard to land hereafter purchased from the Natives. I stated when last speaflcing on the question that that would amount to half a million acr^s. That is about the acreage that will •be dealt with under the optional 6ystem. I In the optional system, ac the bill comes back from committee, there is the option between the occupation with the right of purchase and tho renewal lease, the old cash system, and the lease in perpetuity dropping out. The Minister concluded with a brief reference to the endowment proposals, cut short by the expiration of his hour.