WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 12.

Otago Witness, Issue 2579, 19 August 1903, Page 34

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 12.

In the Lsgislative Council on Wednesday the Waimate Racecourse Reserve, Gore Electric Power Empowering, and ChristehurcJ Tramways District Bills were read a second time. A number of alterations were made in committee in the Counties Act Ame-nd-rnent Bill. The Council then adjourned till the 27th inst. in view of the debate in tho other House on the Financial Statement.

COUNTIES BILL.

Ini committee on the Counties Act Amendment Bill the amendments suggested by the Statutes Revision Committee were adopred. Sub-clauses A and B of clause- 3, providing for a 3d raie in outlying districts and' l^d in- other parts of a county were struck out. In lieu thereof sub-clauses ware substituted for a 3d rate in counties where "there are no roads or town districts, and in counties where there are roads and town districts a 3d rate in outlying districts, and l£d in all other parts of a county. A ne-w clause was inserted providing for making a separate rate by special ordci in addition to or in lieu of a general rate, but both together not to exceed the maximum of the general rate stated.

Clatise 5, " Control of billiard rooms," was amended by the elimination of the hour of olesing. The bill was reported as amended.

In (he- House of Representative's on Wednesday the Sneaker announced that :q tin poll to decide' whether liquoi should be sok\ at Bellamy's 76 members of both Houses had voted in favour of Galling liquor and 31 against. A number of local bills were read a first time, and the rest of the afternoon was taken up with replies to questions. At the evening sitting tho bill for validating the Bruce local option poll, voided by the S.M. on petition, came up for its second reading. The discussion took an unexpected turn when Mr Duthie moved that the debate be adjourned for a fortnight, and that in the meantime the Government should bring down a bill providing for taking a fresh poll, with a proviEO that the clause of the Licensing Act by which one-half of the electors must vote before a poll is valid should be inoperative. The Premier insisted on regarding this as a want of confidence motion, and, of course, on a division on parly lines the amendment was defeated by 45 to 25. It wae then proposed to adjourn tho debate, but though this course war- supported by the Premier the House, Tiy 35 to 31, defeated that amendment, and a few minutes later negatived the second reading by 36 to 20. The Bruce local opticn poll is therefore not to be validated.

REPLIES TO QUESTIONS. In reply to questions, Ministers s.'a'ed. that the Government recognised that tho coupon system in trading required regulating, and tlio matter was under consideration; that Government could not fco its way to legislate in tho direction >f enabling insurance companies to place surp' us moneys to their credit in the Pest Offics £n\ 'ngs Banks of the colony ; that Ihe Labour Department w not aware that t he-re is any unusual number of men out of employment

at this season ; that, under tho Postal Con

mention rulps, the New Zealand (4o\ eminent l'itd no power to prevent the canvass through tho New Zealand post offices for sub-crin-tions to German lotteries; that there was uo intention to introduce legislation to give Crown tenants wine representation on the land boarc'a of the- colony: thaf when sterilising plants lud ba-e-n erected at tho BlulF and Auckland imported bones woxild not be- allowed to be> landed at any oilier port, in the colony.

VALIDATING THE BRUCE LOCAL OPTION POLL.

Mr JAMES ALLEN moved the second reading of the Bruce Licensing Poll Validation Bill. Ho eaid by bringing this bill forward he did not raise any question of license or no-liconse. The measure simply asked the House to give a three-fifths nnjority of the people in Bruce licensing district the right to express at the local

opUon poll their wishes on the licensing

question. He briefly rolitrd the cirenm- . stances leading up to the Bruce- poll being

declared void, and laid stress on the point that the magistrate, in giving a decision which upset the poll, said he did so with reluctance. Tne magistrate -bad no discretionary power in regard to irregularities at the booths. The irregularities at Bruce consisted in one polling "booth having been closed for a quarter of an hour when it should have been kept open, and in the officials having allowed more than one voter to enter the inner compartments at the same time. As a matter of fact, the result of the poll was nofc affected by these irregulaiities, but the magistrate had r.o discretionary power. It was contended that there was no precedent for legislation of this kind, but he urged that it was immaterial whether or not there was a precedent. Whether the case was going to the Privy Council or not, he asked whether it was right that the people of his district should be left in a state of unrest and suspense because of the mistake of the officials at the polling booths. His bill was simply to make clear what ought to have been made clear in previous legislation. He s-aw no reason why they should not have retrospective legislation on a question of this kind, where the will of the people was affected. ThrcefiftbG of the people of Bruce had voted for prohibition, had elected a no-license committee, and had the other day petitioned Parliament for validation of tha poll, and legal effect should be given to their wishes.

Mr M'LACHLAjST seconded the motion

Mr R. M'KENZIE raised a point of order, contending that the bill should first bo sent to the Local Bills Committee to see whether it was a local or public bill.

Mr JAMES ALLEN said the injury was done under a public act, and he quoted instances to show that although only a small area was= affected an amending bill was treated as a public measure when such was the case.

The SPEAKER ruled that the bill was a public bill, since it really amounted to mi amendment-, of the act vl 1895. which appeared to have made no provision for meeting such cases as arose in Newtoivn, Bruce, etc

Mr SEDDON 6aid he had an, open mind on the question, and did hof rise to oppose the bill, but simply to do his duty. He felt sure no member of the House would do anything to violate the secrecy of the ballot. In the Bruce case it had been admitted and proved that the secrecy of the 1)81101 had been violated. The poll had not been declared void ou mere technicalities, for tho question of the violation of the secrecy of the ballot was also involved, and it was on the whole of these grounds that the magistrate had declared the poll void. He contended that this was both retrospective and retroactive legislation. If that wcrp not so the bill would be of no service whatever. The House should be in possession of complete evidence before it took the grave and extraordinary step of validating the poll. He went on to ivad ;he concluding portion of the magistrate's decision, in which he referred to what had taken place in the inner compartments of the booths and the consequent interference with the secrecy of the ballot. He (Mr Seddon) believed in having the will of the people carried out, but when it came to interfering with the secrecy of the twllot he asked members to pause. He understood the matter was still b?fore the law courts, and if the Hous-a passed the bill in these circumstances ib would be taking a grave responsibility on itself. If the Hou.=e decided to unset the decision of the magistrate it was only a question of degree whether dec.'sicns of Hid Supreme Court and Appeal Court might not be upset ou =ome occa-s-on. His sympathies \verc« with the majority, and but for iJie negligence of officials the will of the people would have, prevailed.' He would severely puuish negligence of this kind, but he wou'd not agree to validate the illegal acts of returning officers in the election of members of tho Hau«o. If violation of tno nocrccy of the ballot c-ould be proved, the courts invariably refund to validate tho election, aud why should the-ro he a distinction in other elections 9 In conclusion, he eaitl ho was prepared to listen to both .sides of the question with an open mind.

Mr BEDFORD accused the Premier of being :i re-preEentalivo m the House of the Liquor party. On the question of secrecy the result of the poll had net Ik en affected. In the election of members, polls could not be up»et because of individual violations of secrpcv. Thus the Jaw legulating the locul option poll was unjust tinr 1 anomaiou<!. In regard to there being no precedent the Premier knew he was on un=afo ground, for lus own Government interfered wit'i tb.e law for the purpose of doing what th° Hoiue considered suk-Untial jiL-tice. That precedent was in connection with l-cn^ing, and wan on all fours practically with the present ca«e. But even if tlioro was no precedent, that should not <"-ake it wrong to give justice now. Ho did not thitik the Premier wanted to do justice. The intention of the law had been stultified. Mr Seddon "-5 arguments were trivial in comparison wilji the declared Will of t!ie people. Mr SEDDON: Why do you object to a second ballot?

Mr BEDFORD: Because, on account of b. clauss in the act, the ljcople could now be thwarted by the Liquor party hy tlioir followers abstaining from voting. Besides, tho Premier had never given them a chance of a bC(G-nd poll.

Mr J. A. MILLAR said no injustice wza hung done to tho people. The pol ■uas ULeu m an iiregnlar nwjiner, &ud was

therefore invalid. What eort of a precedent

would they be laying down in overriding a decision of a magistrate? He would vote <-in favour of a bill providing- fcr a second poll in. Bruce, Newtown, and Chalmers, with a clause that it shall not bs necessary for half of the electors to vote. The injustice done in Chalmers was greater in some caces. The action of licensing committees was a standing disgraoa to them, and he referred particularly to Dunedin. He thought anomalies and defects in the licensing law should be dealt with, this ses6ion. He hoped the Premier would bring down a bill dealing with, the whole mattei, and he hoped Mr Seddon would pay no attention to either the prohibitionists or publicans, but would bring down a fair measure to put the licensing law on a clear and equitable basis.

Mr ELL said the Temperance party simply wanted this question settled fairly at the polls. Mr BARBER would support the bill for want of a better way of dealing with the difficulty.

The Hon. Mr M'GOWAN opposed tho

bill, which he urged set up a dangerous precedent in that it would override the decision of a magistrate by act of Parliament.

Mr VILE did .not support the bill because ho thought it should have dealt with other similar eases as well, and that it should hare been brought clown by the Government

Mr W. FRASER said that if a measure had been introduced providing for a second poll ifc would have had his eupport, but he could not agree to support a bill the object of which was to validate certain breaches of the law. He had an objection, on principle

to that class of legislation. The Hon. C. H. MILLS opposed -the bill on the ground that if it became law it would 1 have a prejudicial effect ©n. Miy case that might be brought forward in regard to the same matte? later on. i Mr TANNER supported the bill, os he considered the people of Bruco had a right to have their clearly expressed wishes given effect to. ! Mr MOSS supported the bill. i Mr MASSEY thought a way out of the | difficulty was by a second poll, in wnich caee the necessity for one-half of the electors voting could be done away with. Mr BENNET supported the measure

Mr MANDER preferred a second poll, but he would support the Bill in order to put matters right. Mr DUTHIE moved a>3 an amendment — " That the second reading of the bill be po&tponed for a fortnight, and that the Government be asked to bring down a bill providing for a second poll with the least possible delay, the clause for half of tho electors to vote to be inoperative." Mr KIRKBRIDE seconded the amendment as a. protest against the Government uot bringing down amending licencing legislation. Mr FLATMAX said he would support a bill providing for a second poll. Mr SEDDON asked members to parse before passing anything so extraordinary as Mr Duthie's amendment, which he regarded as a motion of no-confidence. He had moved his amendment to give the Government a slap in the face-. To have this sprung upon the Government was unfair, and it was impossible for him to accept it. He _ had been a member of the House for 25 sessions, and he had never met with such a proposal. A search of the records of the House of Commons and other self-governing colonies would not reveal a similar ease. It wa3 not the way to instruct the Government as to what legislation it phould bring in, and Mr Duthie must see there was no justification for such a course. The last time he went through the Bruce electorate a deputation of prohibitionists waited on him and asked for a fresh poll, and subsequently they apked foi the poll to be validated. He believed tlioy were afraid of the decision of the Fri\y Council. The matter uas now before the courts. Mr JAMES ALT.EX: B.uce i= net. Mr BARBER did not think the ameudmojit was a reflection on the Government. .Sir J. G. WARD spoke- in justification of tho action of Mr Seddon in regarding the motion as one of no-confidencs, and said that Mr James Allen, knowing he could not carry the second reading of Im bill, was prepared to support Mr Dutlue's amendment and give the Government a nplenditl smack in the face. The whole business of the House would have to be stopped to carry tho amendment into effect if it was carried. If the Government accepted such an amendment they would not be fit to continue in the responsible positions they occupied Mr ELL said that at lunch time that day

lie had suggested to Mr Seddon that he should take tho course now proposed by Mr Duthio. but he had declined to do so. Mi- M'XAB said the reason for moving the

amendment war that a great many members

of the Opposition had opposed tho bill and many Government supporters were in favour

of it. If the Premier accepted such an amendment ho would not be fit to occupy

the position he did. Regarding the bill itself, he thought that when a poll had Ijpph declared void provision should bo made for

a fresh poll not only in Bruce, but in Chalmers and Newtown. Mi- BUDDO said lii« sympathies were in the direction of a fresh poll being allowed in all c.i-t\, in which licencing polls had been uy-.et ou t-dmtal lncsularitiea.

Sir R. RUSSELL said the action of the Government in making this a no-con-fidence tmotion was essentially wrong. Whenever any question had been raised in the House which did not suit the members of the Government, in order to get its own way against a majority of the members, it declared it a no-cenfidence motion. If ifc was only to prevent litigation this question should be settled, and the Premier should accept the advice of Mr Millar and settlethe licensing difficulties straight away. Mr SEDDON: The advice is good, but an. instruction from the Opposition is quiteanother matter.

Sir W. R. RUSSELL said it was the duty of tho House to insist on licensing legislation being brought down. Why should they be afraid to face the task of putting licensinglegislation on a proper footing 1 ?

The Hon. W. HALL-JONES said there was only one way to take this amendment, and that was as a no-confidence motion. The people of Bruce were against a econd poll, and Mr Duthie was. by his amendment, asking the House to force on thepeople of Bruce something that they did nofr want. He admitted that they bad to deal with the licensing law, and those matters* would receive attention, but not at tho dictation of the Ooposition.

Mr REMINGTON opposed the amendment. Mr VILE hoped the experience of to-night-would force the hands of the Government to bring in licensing legislation.

At 12.20 Mr Ditthie'a amendment wa». negatived by 45 to 25. The following »is the division list: — For the Amendment (25). — Messrs Aitken, J_ Allen, Bedford. Bollard, Buchanan. Dulhie,. Ell, "W. Fraser, Harding, Haidy, Herdman, Herri es, Kirkbride. Lansr, Lethbridge. Lewis, Mandcr, Massey, Moss. Raid, Rhodes, Russell,, J. C. Thomson. J. W. Thdmson, Vile.Against the Amendment (450- — Messrs E. Gv Allen. Arnold, Barber, Baume, Bonnet, Buddo,. Carroll, Colvin, Davey. Dnnrnn, Field, Fisher, Flatman. Graham, Hall, Hall-Jones, Eanan,. Hogg, Houston, Jenninesf Kidd, Lourenson^ Maior, M'O-ow?n. R. M'Kenzie. MTjaehlon,. M-frob, Millar. Mills, O'Meara,, Ppratn. Pete, Ranjineton. Rutherford, Serldon. Sidev, Smith,. Steward. Symes, Tanner, Ward, Willis, Witheford, Witty, Wood. Mr R. M'KENZIE then moved the adjournment of the de-bate. Mr JAMES ALLEN hoped this coursewould not be adopted. He regretted thafe the Government had made this a party question, and had refused to assist him to obtain justice for his constituents. Mr SEDDON replied that Mr Allen had voted for the adjournment of the debateby voting for Mr Duthic's amendment. The member for Bruce had not his heart in the bill, and he only brought it forward to ulease some of his constituents. In sup■port of the. adjournment, Mr Seddon said until the courts had finally dealt with theseoasea it would be unwise for the Houselo interfere. As soon as the opportunity arose the Government would seize- it. An Electoral Bill dealing with this question was already prepared. Mr BAUME said if the discussion on the bill had done no other good it had shown, the Premier tho absolute necessity of bringing forward some licensing legislation. After further debate, Mr SEDDON said he would give Mr Allen another opportunity of going on with the bill. Ho did not wish to take advantage of the position^ Mr JAMES ALLEN acknowledged that there was a majority in the House against the bill. If ho could not gd his bill through he desired to get the next best thing. Would the Premier bring in abill to provide for a second poll in all these cases, and leave out the provision that half of the electors on the roll must record theirvotes in order to make the poli 1 effective? Mr SEDDON said that after he had madethe lion, gentleman an offer in respect to his bill he did not want it ; he wanted some* thing eke. The motion for the adjournment of thedebatc was lost by 35 to 31. Without further debate Mr JAMESALLEN" at 1.5 a.m. replied on the motion, for the second reading. He expressed his willingness to take an instruction to convert the bill into a bill to allow a. secono. poll ii all these cases. Would the Government accept that? The House was not doing itsduty if it did not legislate in these cases, and the House had a right to look for a lead from the Government. The Premier, as leader of the Assembly that made the law* of the colony, could not allow a continuance of the staito of thing"? iihai now existed! in Newtown and Bruce. He would abandon his bill if the Premier would bring down a> bill to provide for a second poll.

Tho motion for the second reading wasnegatived by 36 to 20 and the bill thus killed.

[The division list on the motion. for thasecond reading was telegraphed as follows : —

For the BJI (20).— Messrs Aitken, I. Allen, Arnold, Barber, Bedford. Ell. Haiiaa, Having, Kirkbr'de, Laures'-on, Marnier, Masspy, Mess, Reid, Remington. Rhodes, Sidey, J. C. Thomson, and J. W. ThomEon. [Only 19 names are accounted for.]

Against the Bill (36).— Messrs Baume. Buddo, Buchanan, Carroll, Colvin, Dayey, Duncan, Field, Fisher, Flatman, "W. Fraser, Graham, Kail, Hall-Jones, Hogc:, Houston, Jennings, Kidd, Huior, M'Gowan, M'Xab, Mills, O'Mcara-, Parata, Kussell, Rutherford. Sed'lon, Smith, Stewaid, Symes, Vile, Ward, TVulis, WitheEord, Witty, and Wood.

No inns \kpt2 lccorcWl. SECONDARY SCHOOL ENDOWMENTS. A return laid befoic tho llousc shows tho

income from endowments derived by the TarioTis secondary schools in the colony. The •total income from endowments of Auckland -Grammar School last year was £1467 ; "Wellington College, £2793; Napier High. School, £1246; Nelson College, £1002; Christ's College Grammar School, £2626; ■Ckristchurch Boys' High School, £2671; -Christchurch Girls' High School, £534; Timaru High School, £1568; Otago High Schools, £2756. In the matter of endowments per head on the roll, Nelson 'College, Auckland Grammar School, and Christ-, church Girls' High School are all under £4 ■per head, while the Thames High School has over £16, Christ's Colkge Grammar "School over £127 Christchurch Boys' Eigh School. Ashburton High School, and Otago High Schools over £13. and Timaru High School over £15 per head. The average of all tho secondary schools of the colony is a fraction under £7 10s per head: SALE OF LIQUOH AT BELLAMY'S.

The poll of members of both Houses of Parliament on the question whether liquor shall continue to be sold in Bellamy's resulted in 76 votes being cast in favour of the continuance of the sale of liquor and 31 against. The votes in the Legislative Council were 34 for liquor and 4 agairat. In the House of Representatives th& vote 3 were 42 for liquor and 27 against.

THE FATE OF A SURPLUS.

' Mr Aitken to-day asked for information as to what had become of the proceeds of the Maori Carnival, held in Wellington in March, 1900. He said the proeeecte were to go to the .patriotic funds. The Premier, in reply, said: — " The proceeds of the carnival were lodged with the Public Trustee on October 6, 1900. I3iey remain there."

A GUNPOWDER MANUFACTORY.

Mr E. G. Alien to-day askc-d if the GoTernment would consider the. question of establishing & gunpowder manufactory in the colony. The Premier replied that there was a company in the colony formed for the purpose of manufacturing explosives. He understood an application had been made in this connection for a reserjeo at Iteborah Bay, near Port Chalmers, on which to erect works. If the company approached the Government their application would receive favourable consideration. The Government Tvould be happy to render -assistance.