A PAINFUL SCENE IN THE HOUSE.

Otago Witness, Issue 2331, 3 November 1898, Page 23

A PAINFUL SCENE IN THE HOUSE.

RC MEMBER SUSPENDED FOR A WEEK.

(Fbom Our Own Cobbespondint.) WELLINGTON, October 28. Shortly after 2 o'clock this morning, while 'the House was in Committee on the Mining Bill, Mr R. M'Kenzie, the member for Motueka, commenced to discuss the clauses of the bill at some length, to the evident irritation of those members who were anxious to get the bill through, and to get home. Mr M'Kenzie proceeded to criticise Mr O'Regan's attitude towards the bill, and after these criticisms had continued for some time Mr O'Regan interjected that Mr M'Kenzie wa& not responsible for what he said. Several members cried, " Order," and the Chairman of Committees (Mr Guinness) at once called upon Mr O'Regan to withdraw the words. Mr M'Kenzie, however, interfered, and said: "I move that the words be taken down." Mr Guinness then put the question to the Committee whether it was their pleasure that the words be taken down or not, the response "being a chorus of " Noes." Mr Guinness then said he would not take down the words. Mr M'Kenzie persisted in demanding that the words be taken down. Mr Guinness said: "Will you resume youx seat ? " \ Mr M'Kenzie: "No, sir; I will not. (Cries of " Chair, chair.") \ Mr Guinness : "If the honourable member •will not resume his Beat, it will be my duty to report him to the Speaker." j A Member: "Quite time, too." Mr O'Re.qan : "I withdraw the words " (referring to his reference to Mr M'Kenzie at the commencement of the scene). Mr M'Kenzie: "I will not allow him to "withdraw the word?. I move that they be taken down, or I will have to report the matter to the Speaker." Mr Guinness: "The hon. member must ,espect mv ruling." Mr M'Kenzie: "I will not." Mr Guinness: "You must withdraw that." Mr M'Kenzie : "I will withdraw it, then ; tout I will ask you to report your ruling <o the Speaker." Mr Guinness : "I can't allow these unseemly interruptions to go further." Mr M'Kenzie: "I still ask that the words be taken down, and reported to the Speaker." Mr Guinness: "I hope the hon. member ■will not make me report him to the Speaker." Mr M'Kenzie: "You will find you are mistaken. I moved that certain words used by Mr O'Regan be taken down." A Member: "The Chairman has ruled en that." Mr M'Kenzie: "It is not a question of ruling. The Chairman must report the words to the Spenker. I move that the words be taken down." ' , Mr Guinness: "If you move that aerain, T must report the matter to the Speaker. I have eiven the member every latitude." Mr M'Kenzie: "I moved a certain motion that the words be taken down." Mr Seddon here interfered, and said: t " After your ruling, Mr Chairman, something must be done. OrrTer must be observed in . 'this House. I must ask you to report the matter to the Speaker." At this stage it appeared as though Mr M'Kenzie would let the matter drop. Mr Guinness said: "I do not think the hon. member would further transgress, and I am prepared to overlook what has happened. ' The bill was then proceeded with ; but a few minutes later Mr M'Kenzie again rose, and moved to report progress. Ho urged, as one reason for reporting progress, that the chairman's ruling was not in accordance with the St-mding Orders. Mr Guinness then said: "I deem it my duty to report the hon. member to the Speaker." Mr M'Kenzie: "That is just what I want. I do not object." ' Mr Guinness: "I must name the hon. member for not obeying the chair." Mr Guinness then sent for the Speaker, and on the arrival of Sir Maurice O'Rorke, Mr Guinness said : "I rejrret that it is mv duty to rfnort that Mr R. M'Kenzie. the member for Motueka. during; the progress of the proceedings in Committee, has disobeyed the ruling of the chair on more than one occasion by questioning mv decision in connection with a mntter concerning which I was called upon to rule — namely, a certain expression by the member for the Buller, wlrch I called upon liim to withdraw, and he did so. Mr M'Kenzie. however, insisted that the words ba taken down. I put the question to the House, and ascertained that they did not desire it. The member continued^ to question ■my rulinsr. and as be still persisted nfter I had warned him, it became my painful duty to report the matter to you." The Speaker said : " I deeply regret what has occurred. There is but one course, and that is for the leader of the House, without debate, to carry out his duty, and to move + hat the hon. member be suspended for at least one week." The Premier : "Itis a painful duty that I have to perform ; but the chair must be obeyed. I might ask, however, that the suspension might be for 24- hours. The House might moderate its views, as there are certain circumstances." The Speaker : " The rule says not exceeding one week, which is generally regarded as the full week, but if the member expresses contrition I will limit it to 24- hours— that is, if he does so in a manner that exhibits true contrition." Mr M'Kenzie : " Can I say nothing in selfdefence?" The Speaker: "Unless you express contrition." Mr M'Kenzie: "May I not say anything?" The Speaker : " The question is that Mr R. M'Kenzie be suspended for one week." The motion was declared to be carried. Mr M'Kenzie: "Can I explain?" The Speaker: "No." Mr R. M'Kenzie : " I will not be suspended for 2A minutes." The Speaker : " The hon. member must retire." Mr M'Kenzie then withdrew, and the House proceeded with the bill. Later on, just before the House adjourned, Mr Seddon again referred to what he called " the painful episode," .-.nd said there were circumstances which he hoped then, and hoped still, might be taken into consideration. He asked the Speaker if he could not make some suggestion so that, whilst upholding the dignity of the House, the matter might be reconsidered when tho (louse met in the afternoon. He thought perlaps they might review the matter and pass a, less severe sentence owing to circumstances and the period of the session. The Speaker said that as one of the oldest members of the House, notwithstanding his desire to vindicate the dignity of Parliament, he was not dis£osed to press harshly on a brother member. • the Premier could assure him that the member desired to make due amends, he for

one (but he placed himself in the hands of the House) would be prepared to aocept it. The rule in question had been on the Standing Order 3 for six years, but had never previously been enforced. It was a painful occasion for the officers of the House — the Chairman of Committees and himself (the Speaker). The Premier said he was not at the moment prepared to give the assurance the Speaker had asked for, but he felt sure the episode would be eventually settled as the Speaker wished. There were circumstances (The Speaker, interrupting : " I hope you will not attempt to justify what was done.") Mr Seddon said he had no intention to do so. "If the member," ; Air Seddon proceeded, 4> was in a position to understand (he would put it that way) , he was ' quite sure the necessary apology would be tendered." The Speaker: "1 would like to hear the opinion of the House on this aide,' | pointing to the Opposition benches. Mr Scobie Mackenzie said he did not see how anything could be done until the resolution they had , just passed had been rescinded. The Speaker agreed to this, and said he felt that if it was to be done the sooner the better. The Premier thought the matter should be reviewed when , the House met in the afternoon. He believed ■ those on tl-e other side of the House would , agree to that course. Mr Scobie Mackenzie ' pointed out that the rescinding of the motion might imply that no offence had been com- j mitted. The rescinding would have to be ac- j companied by some recognition that an offence j had been committed, or the House would be \ stultified. The Premier concurred with this, j and the Speaker remarked that an apology i must be made. The House then adjourned, j When the House met this afternoon Mr j M'Kenzie was not in his seat. After questions and formal business had been disposed of, Captain Russell said that he understood that it had been agreed that the question should be reviewed that afternoon, with the view, if possible, of mitigating the sentence. He hoped the question would now be finally settled. The matter should not be allowed to drag on, but whatever was to be done should be done at once. He had hoped that Mr M'Kenzie would Jiave appeared in his place, and have expressed his regret. Unfortunately, they had not seen him in his place that afternoon, and he (Captain "Russell) understood the member's resignation had been tendered to the Speaker. He did not desire that the member should do anything but submit himself to the House, but it ought to be announced whether the member had tendered his resignation. Mr Seddon said he had thought the member for Motueka would be available at 2.30, and that was the reason he had asked for a postponement till then. There were circumstances connected with the matter that might enable a better solution of the difficulty to be made if the matter were held over till Monday. Mr Taylor: "Has the member resigned?" Mr Seddon : " No." The Speaker said he could answer that question. After the incident the member for Motueka came to him intimating his intention of resigning. Mr M'Kenzie had offered him a document which he held in his hand at the time. He (the Speaker) told him he could not receive hi 3 resignation in that way, but that if he waited on him in the morning he could present the resignation. Mr M'Kenzie, however, pressed the document upon him, and he took it. This forenoon a messenger waited upon him, and he (the Speaker) surrendered the document unopened to that person as one whom he thought had a right to take it. Mr Rolleston: "Did the messenger come from Mr M'Kenzie? " The Speaker: "I suppose so." Mr Smith called attention to the fact that very different treatment was being meted out to different members of the House. When his colleague, Mr Taylor, was censured, no one was more severe on him than the Premier. The Speaker said this was the first case of suspension since the rule was made. Mr Smith : " There are other penalties members feel as keenly as suspension." Mr Seddon said the general feeling of the House was that he had not done his duty in not moving that Mr Taylor be suspended. Mr Smith said the two cases were entirely different. The Premier would not even give his colleague, Mr Taylor, a chance to explain his utterance or withdraw it. He insisted upon the words being taken down and the member dealt with. Mr Scobie Mackenzie said he wished to ask a question, simply for information, and in the interest of the whole House. Was there any special time of the day or night in which Mr Speaker was competent to receive a letter conveying the resignation of a member? The law as it stood said that a member vacated his seat when he addressed a letter to the j Speaker by writing under his hand. " I I understand you to say," he continued, addressing the Speaker, " that the member for Motueka put a letter in your hands, announcing at the time that it was his resignation, and that you refused to accept it, on the ground that it was not the proper time. Is i that so? " *" The Speaker : "Place." Mr Scobie Mackenzie*. "What place ?" The Speaker: "He met me in the passage, and I said this was not the proper place to tender his resignation. It is not the proper place to come to me with a resignation whea I am going from this room to my rcom, or from my room to this room." Mr Scobie Mackenzie continued that lie anked the question because of an occurrence that took place a year or two a<jo, when the question was whether a member's resignation j dated from the time a letter to the Speaker j had been placed in the post office. It was only for information he asked the question. Mr Taylor: "Can I ask the Premier without notice ? " 1 The Speaker: ""Efts.' 11

' Mr Taylor: "What I would like to know is whether the messenger sent to withdraw Hie letter came from Mr M'fCenzie, or was he sent by- the Premier 't " Mr Seddon: "Well, sir, the messenger to whom the Speaker gave the document which was supposed to contain the resignation was not sent by the Premier." Mr Taylor : " Was he your messenger ? " No answer from the Premier. Since the foregoing was ■written J Lave learned that it was Mrs Poderick M'Kenzie who sot the resignation from the Speaker, and, I understand, she was accompanied by ; Mr Millar, M.H.E. j The position is an extraordinary one. It appears, if the facts are as stated, that a member may resign his seat, and actually have put his resignation in the hands of the Speaker, ! but that a woman, in the person of his wife, can ?et it withdrawn, apparently, without the , member's knowledge. No doubt, however, ■ the Government need to make strenuous efforts in these times, for with the Tuapeka seat practically lost, ?nd.Mr Hursthouse (Opwofgbion) certain to win Motneka in Mr R. i M'Kenzi9's ?,bsence from the field, the posi1 tion of the narty becomes very critical. Mr , R. M'Kensie, I understand, states that from the time he withdrew from the House in the early hours of the morning, he never enter- | tamed any intention of expressing contrition j for the part he took in the episode. In fact, j he contended he is the aggrieved party, firstly ] because Mr Guinness declined to take a dij vision on his motion that Mr O'Regan's words rbo taken down ; and, secondly, because the j Spenker refused to give him an opportunity i of explaining his actions. He says he does not care peisonally about the occurrence, but he feels that his constituents have been wronged through him, and he intends to take an early opportunity of defending himself and of explaining his attitude to the people. He emphatically denies that there is the slightest truth in the insinuation of Mr O'Regan that he (Ivfr M'Kenzie) did not know this morning what ho was saying. Such an insinuation, he says, is as far as possible from the truth. Immediately the Speaker requested "him to retire this morning he wrote out his resignation and brought it into the Speaker, but Sir Maurice U'Rorke, I am informed, at first refused to accept it. He told Mr M'Kenzie he was excited, and had better come back later on, but as Mr M'Kenzie insisted, Sir Maurice took the resignation and put it in his pocket without opening it. The Premier and other members did their utmost to persuade Mr M'Kenzie not to resign, but to express regret to the House. He, however, absolutely and emphatically declined to do so, ns he himself informed myself and others. October 31. Before calling on the Premier to move that the resolution passed on Thursday last suspending the member for Motueka be rescinded, the SPEAKER said he understood it was the ! desire of the House that the member should be given an opportunity to express his regret. Such an opportunity could be given by the permission of the House. ! The PREMIER, in moving the motion, pointed out that the decision had been arrived at hastily, and the House was now in a better position to calmly consider it. The member for Motueka had been under the impression that he had the right to demand a vote on the question that the words he complained of should be taken down. He had since admitted to him that he had been in the wrong. Mr M'Kenzie was a member who had not an j enemy in the House, and he had no intention of resisting the authority of the chair or disregarding; the House. The SPEAKER said, with a view to maintain the rights and privileges of the House, he would much prefer that tha member for Motueka should now come into the House and make his statement. He (the Speaker] did not think the House desired a humiliating apology, but a frank and manly apology would be received in a generous spirit by j every member of the House, and the matter once and for all settled. J The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON, as the oldest member of the House, concurred with the Speaker's remarks, but considered that instead of rescinding the motion the House should remit the remninder of the sentence. Captain RUSSELL intimated that he intended moving an amendment to the effect that further consideration of the matter be postponed until It is decided whether or not the member for Motueka is still a member of Uvs House. The SPEAKER said he had hoped that the leaders of the House would have fallen in with his suggestion, but as Captain Russell apparently did not, he (the Speaker) would now call for a seconder to the motion. Mr SEDDON" said he would like to accept the suggestion, but had not had an opportunity to see the member for Motueka. The Speaker left the chair for 15 minutes, in which to confer with the member for Motueka. On resuming. The PREMIER moved that the member for Motueka be permitted to attend in his place. This was agreed to. The Serpreant-at-Arms was sent for, and returned with the member for Motueka. He was informed by the Speaker that the House desired to affoTd him an opportunity to make such explanation as he mi^hl think fit with tespect to having disregarded the authority of the chair. Mr R. M'KENZIE explained that whilst moving an amendment to the Mining Bill the member for Buller had made what he (Mr M Kenzie) considered an offensive personal •reflection on him. He bad moved that the words be taken down, and owing to his imperfect knowledge, he had been under the impression that a division could be taken on that motion, and had erroneously persisted in asking for a division. In doing what he had done, he had had no intention of defying or otnwinc discourtesy to the chair, and now

desired to express his regret that he had actec against the ruling of the chair. The SPEAKER asked the member foi Motueka to withdraw, and promised to inform him of the decision of the House. The PREMIER moved—" That the House, having heard the explanation of the member for Motueka, and his expression of regret oi what occurred in Committee, it accepts his apology." Mr DUTHIE seconded the motion, and contended that Mr M'Kenzie should have been allowed to explain before the motion for suspending him was passed. The SPEAKER said he had no option in the matter, as the Standing Order declared that the motion of suspension must be put forthwith. This had been the first time on which the Standing Order had been brought into operation. Mr O'REGAN explained that he had not made an interjection whilst Mr M'Kenzie was speaking in Committee, but he used the words complained of when he rose to sneak. He (Mr O'Regan) had made the remark under great provocation, as the member for Motueka had been making an inaccurate statement regarding him. Others having spoken, Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE considered the punishment meted out to Mr M'Kenzie had been outrageous, and he pointed out that in the excitement caused by the incident the House bad forgotten that there was an alternative punishment provided by the Standing Orders — viz., that an offending member could be dealt with according to ancient usage, which did not include suspension. Others having spoken, and the PREMIER having replied, tho motion was agreed to. The PREMIER moved his motion rescinding tho motion of suspension. Captain RUSSELL moved as an amendment that the House decline to consider Mr Scddon's motion until it is ascertained whether or not the member for Motueka had ceased to be a member of the House by handing a document to the Speaker, which he informed him was his resignation. He said he did not move this as leader or member of the Opposition, and did not ask any member to vote for it unless he agreed with him. He detailed the circumstances under which Mr M'Kenzie had handed his resignation to the Speaker, and said the contention that the resignation could not be recognised until it had boon opened did not hold unless it waa conceded that the Speaker had power not to allow any member to resign by keeping the letter of resignation unopened. If the power of dibcrimination was allowed to the Speaker | the Houfce would be imposing a powfer on the Speaker never contemplated by any Parliament. He contended that the resignation had net been withdrawn by Mr M'Kenzie. His (Captain Russell's) present action had not been animated by party feelings, but he would not be a parly to permitting the Speaker to infringe the Electoral Act of 1893. Mr G. HUTCHISON said as the matter was one which affected the privileges of the j House, Mr Seddon should have brought it up. There vras no reasonable ground for doubt that Mr M'Kenzie had handed in his . resignation. Despite the fact that the Speaker ] did not consider the place and method of handing it in was proper, it was not competent for the Speaker to make an arrange- j ment as to keeping the letter for a period before oponing it, and there was no power to withdraw a resignation. The document handed by Mr M'Kenzie to the Speaker belonged, not to the Speaker, but to the House. The SPEAKER said that when Mr M'Kenzie handed his resignation to him he declined to receive it, but when it was pressed on him, and in order to get past the member for MotueVa, he (the Speaker) had taken the document from him, at the same time stating that he did not take it as his resignation. He told Mr M'Kenzie if he wanted to resign he must see him next morning. Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE said there was one link missing in Captain Russell's case, and that was that the Speaker was not ma position to say what was in the letter. He considered the Speaker had been actuated by humane and reasonable motives, and at this stage of the session it would be better to leave the matter alone. „,.., Mr DUTHIE had no doubt that the proceedings had been irregular, but considered it would be sufficient if a protest was entered. Othe-s having spoken, The PREMIER said the Speaker was well within his rights in keeping the letter unopened. Under the whole circumstances, and knowing what the member for Motueka s feelings had been, his action was not one which should be taken account of. He vindicated the course taken by the Speaker. Captain RUSSELL said in conformity to the very generally-expressed wish he would withdraw his amendment. Leave was granted, and the motion was agreed to without dissent, and communicated to Mr M'lvenzie.