THE FEDERAL CONVENTION.

Otago Witness, Issue 2251, 22 April 1897, Page 16

THE FEDERAL CONVENTION.

Adelaide, April 13.

The greater portion of the morning was occupied with the wording of the money clause. After the Committee by 27 to 21 had decided to substitute " Ssnate " for the more awkward " States assembly," the battle of the States commsneed. Mr Reid (Sydney) strongly opposed the Senate having equal power in matters of finance. With the Senate constituted as proposed such a system of equal power would be fraught with disaster. Tha Lower House mußt be master of finance.

Sir G. Turner supported Mr Reid, who had, he said, raised the crux of the whole question. He believed the Committee had made a mistake in conceding equal representation, and he dared not go back to Victoria and submit such a proposal to the people. He urged the small Stites to assist by not giving the Senate equal power over money bilh. If they were not prepared to accept what was called the 1891 compromise, then federation was an impossibility. "

Sir J. Downer thought thej only asked for what were their legitimate rights. Small colonies had gone far enough, and he would not personally be prepared to make any farther concessions to large States. — (A Member, ironically: "How far have you gone 7") Sir J. Djwner replied that they had gone further than ths small States in America and Switzerland.

Mr Wi?e (Sydney) said although incomprehensible to him, there was undoubtedly a strongly ingrained popular prejudice amongst the people of Victoria against the Second Chamber, no matter how constituted, having power to deal with money oi'il?. The alarms expressed by either side were groundless The smaller States had absolute safety against excessive oppression by absenting themselves from tbe Senate, which would require a third of the senators to be present to cirrv a measure.-. i Mr Kingston (Adelaide) thought if that ' were so they migbt as well remain and out-

vot3 the others. He intended, even at the risk of separating himself from h,'s colleagues, to support Mr Reid. He bslieved they should stick closely to the 1891 compromise. He was not prepared to imperil federation by attempting to destroy a compromise which would result in federation. Sir John Forrest advocited equal powers just as he bad done in 1891. He did not accept the compromise arrived at on that occasion. He was quite agreeable that all

money oilla ot importance snould oe initiated in the Lower House, but the Senate should have the right of amending a taxation bill. If Sir G. Turner and Mr Reid would not have federation except on their terms, then they had better federate themselves* for the other States would have none of it.

Mr Higgins (Victoria) regarded the pOßition as dangerous. The smaller States outnumbering the larger States in the Convention could do what they liked with bills, but he warned them they could not obtain federation by such means. He appealed to them to exercise their tremendous powers wisely and with care.

Both Messrs Holder (South Australia) and Douglas (Tasmania) stated that if Mr Reid's idea was adopted neither of their colonies would federate.

Mr O'Connor (Sydney) was quite willing to give the greatest power to the smaller States consistent with "responsible government. The objection to equal powers was that the bulk of the people would refuse to be dominated by the smaller section in the matter of expenditure.

Mr M'Millan (Sydney), in a conciliatory speech, said the thought of giving co-ordinate power did not destroy the finance and the supremacy which the Lower House possessed by its power of initiation. He would not refuse to give tha Senate tde right in a proper and dignified way of telling them how far they had gone and how far they should SO- _ .. .

Mr Daakin, in a strong speech, urged the acceptance of the qualifying 1 powers which experience proved to be necessary for the transaction of public business. He thought it quits unlikely that the bulk of the Lower House would accede to anything which would be unjust to the bulk of the taxpayers, and, therefore, ie waa not necessary to give the Senate power by which a minority might upset the decision of the majprity.

The Convention decided to continue its sittings each evening. It is almost; certain to sit on holidays except on Good Friday.

April 14.

The debate en Mr Reid's proposal to amend the clause by disallowing tha Senate tn amend money bills was continued last night.

Mr Carruthers (Sydney) said he had changed his mind since his speech on the resolutions. The bill not having provision for deadlocks, he was compelled to vote against t-qual representation, wtiich would not permit ;,be will of the paople being dominant.

Mr Isaacs (Victoria) considered that more concessions had been mado than the justice of the cas<» demanded. It was absurd to give the 153,000 people in Westralia equal representation in the Senate with N«w South Wales, with its population of 1,300,000. Mr Isaacs further said that if they rsj acted the amendment federation would not be yet. One House must dominate in finance, otherwise responsible Government could not live.

At 10 p.m. progress was reported.

If Mr ReM's proposal to amend the clause of the Constitution by 4 disallowing the Senate t6 " amend money billa bad been defeated, the end of the larger States would be gained by carrying an amendment by striking out equal representation in the Senate, so that while the Senate may have power to amend money bills the small States would find themselves with a minority in the representation.

On the Convention resuming this morning,

Mr Barton continued the discussion. He said to give the Senate the right to amend taxation bills was equivalent to the right of amending appropriation, because an amendment of taxation must necessarily compel the Government to rearrange the appropriation proposals. Why, if, as Sir J. Forrest said, there was not a single thing Westralia could gain by federating, should he seek by holding the balance of power in the Convention to make it impossible for the colonies who desired federation to gain it 1 He accused Sir J. Forrest of forcing the Convention to consider certain clauses out of their proper order when he knew that there would be little chance of his colony accepting any scheme of federation. Like Artemuß Ward, he was quke willing to sacrifice his wife's relations, commencing with his mother-in-law. The Westralian delegates were going back with the knowledge that, while their colony was apathetic in regard to federation, their votes were nsed injuriously to those who desired federation.

Mr Brown (Tasmania) threw in his weight with the larger colonies. He could not see how responsible government could exist, or how federation could be brought about, if the amendment was not carried. He reserved the right of reconsidering hia decision if it was found later that tha people of the smaller Stateß objected to the amendment, bat he did not feel called upon at present to take a step that would wreck federation.

Mr Lewis (Tasmania) followed the example of Mr Brown. He thought it was a fittiDG; time for the small States to show their sincerity in desiring to bring about Federation.

Sir J. Forrest explained that Westralia had not come to the Convention in a playful mannir. Ho thought Mr Barton's assertion was unwarrantable. He believed though Westralia would have to make sacrifices she

was prepared to throw ia her lot with the rest of Australia.

A division was then taken, and resulted infavour of Mr Raid's amendment by 25 to 23.

Had Sir J. Forrest forced a division last night he would have defeated Mr Reid. The delay, however, gave the astute eastern politician an opportunity to deal with the waverers from Tasmania and South Australia.

The rest of the afternoon was occupied with a discussion as to the form in which laws imposing taxation and customs and excise duties should be submitted. It was decided that the three subjects should be dealt with in separate bills.

Consideration of the money bills finished last night without any further amendment of importance.

An unsuccessful effort was made to make consideration of the Senate's suggestions as to money bills compulsory on the parb of the House Committee.

They then proceeded to deal with the bill from the commencement. The clause in the Governor-general's salary was amended so as to read that the salary shall be LIO.OOO unless otherwise enacted by the Federal Parliament, nor shall the salary be altered during the Governor's continuance in office.

The Oonveution decided to sit on Saturday and Eister Monday.

An effort was made to reduce the number of senators to a minimum of three, with an increase in numbers according to population. This attempt to clip the wings of the small States gave rise to an animated debate. Mr - Carruthers (Sydney) hotly objected to any constitution which would thwart the rule of the majority. Ha would prefer to wreck federation rather than permit the majority • hoiog placed under the heel of the minority, especially in view ot there being no means of referring the dispute to the final appeal of the people. Mr Isaacs (Victoria) was of opinion that the abandonment of equal representation would make federation impossible, as the smaller States would not accept it. They should so arrange the powers of the Senate that it could not possibly dominate the large States. Both himself and Sir G. Turner intended 'to lake steps to get a provision for settling deadlocks, which would make a majority of the people dominant. With such a proviso he would concede equal representation.

On a division this afternoon the amendment destroying equal representation in the Senate found only four supporters. There is no doubt the bulk voted for the retention of the principle on the understanding that a safety valve to protect the majority against the minority will be introduced in the biil. The clauses relating to the machinery of the Senate passed without vital amendment. The clause relating to the Housa is now under discussion.

April 1U

At; the eveniog sitting on Thursday, Mr Holder (Adelaide) sought to hare woman's suffrage included in the qualification for elector?. South Australia and New Zealand were quoted as Btriking examples of the success of the reform, but the Convention v/ould have none of it, especially as only two colonies out of seven hsd made the experiment. They rejected the amendment by two to one. South Australia contended warmly against the Federal Parliament having power to disfranchise Australian women by not adopting adult suffrage in thefederation. An amendment to prevent this contingency was carried. A large number of machinery clauses got through with purely minor amendments, the Convention rising at midnight.

April 17.

The whole morning was occupied in dificußsing the clauses dealing with the vaoation of: seats by members occupying offices of profit. When the clauses dealing with the adoption of Standing Orders were under consideration Sir J. Abbott cited the case of stone-throwing in the New South Wales Assembly, and Parliament having no power of punishment, wished to amend the clause so as to give parliamentary orders the force of law over breaches occuriDg within its walls. Mr Barton thought the power suggested altogether too wide, and Sir J. Abbott withdrew the amendment.

A lengthy discussion ensued on the question of giving Parliament control over post and telegraphs. Mr Holder (Adelaide) moved to leave these services with the States. Local lines were, he contended, purely domestic concerns. Mr Deakin (Victoria) thought the federalising of thepost and telegraphs would bring about almost immediately a reduction ia postal charges and cable rates, with better services to the people. Mr Holder's amendment was. lost by 30 to 5.

When the question of controlling S fcateinsurance when extending its businsssinto a neighbouring State came on, Mr Glynn (Adelaide) said he believed the New Zealand Government were doing business in Australia. Me Deakin (Victoria) interjected that New Zealand did not do business in Australia, but there were policy holders in the Australian, colonies who merely paid premiums through the Bank of New Zealand. The clause was amended by giving the Federal Parliament power over insurance, except over Stats insurance, so long as that insurance does not

extend beyond the State in which it originates.

It was proposed to give power to deal with industrial disputes', extending beyond the limits of any one State. Mr Kingston, in supporting the proposal, referred to the example of New Zealand with regard to conciliation. Mr Seddon had recently told him that by means of the tribunal one million pounds had been laved to tbe oolony. Objection was taken to dictating to States in local disputes whose effects might be felt in neighbouring States without a dispute actually occurring in those States. The arbitration clause was rejected by 22 to 12.

After the 10 o'clock adjournment, that fruitful source of dispute in years past between the three large ooldnies over riparian lights cropped up. South Australia is anxious to have the navigation of the Rivers Murray, Darling, and Murrumbidgee placed under federal control, while New South Wales wanted to see the olause stiuck out. Mr Reid said that so far as the Murray was concerned he was with the South Australians in their demands, but not with regard to the other rivers, which did not flow through other States.

April 18.

The debate on the riparian r/ghts question wai continued last night. Mr Kingston hoped the Convention would not teparate before settling once for all what bad been a constant caned of friction. It seemed as if South Australia's protests on the question had been quietly pigeon-holed by New South Wales. Mr Reid said none of tbe rivers except the Murray flowed through South Australia, and tbe claim practically meant tbe annexation of New South Wales as a catchment area for South Australia. The latter colony had no more to do with the Murrumbidgee and Darling than Fij J , and oever wguJh have. New South Wales had to pay for c earing these rivers for the benefit of Soutr Australia, which had not offered to share me coßt/ ljew~ South Wales^ was not prepa-ed to give up control of internal rivers ; nor was she prepared to give the federation control of the Murray for navigation purposes. Eventually the section giving the federation control of the mere was atruck out by 26 to 10, and a new clause- Inserted giving rhe federation control of the Murray from where it forms the boundary of Victoria and N<-w South Wales to the sea.

Sir J. Downer, in a bitter speech, said South Australia had been treated wowe than if she had been an enemy rather than a friend

The House sits on Monday, when finance will be discussed. An effort will be made to finish on Wednesday night.

April 19.

At the Federal Convention the question of bounties raised a long discussion. The bill provides that bounties granted by States cease when uniform duties come into effect. It was contended that on the passage of this bill existing contracts should of course be recognised, but no new bounties should bs offered except by the States taking the risk of having to abrogate them when the new tariff was imposed. Mr Holder (Adelaide) failed to see how federation could impose bounties in order to, say, develop the beet industry in Victoria and South Australia, or the Bugar industry in New South Wales or Queensland. In either case the bounties would be used to develop certain States at tho expense of the others. The opinion was expressed that tbe bounty gystem was inimical to intercolonial freetrade. Mr Deakin thought it an unwarrantable limitation of State power in prohibiting a State from doing what it could to introduce its export? into tbe markets of the world always provided such action did not infringe on free. Intercourse between the coloniea. Mr Rsid opposed the system of giving one colony advantage over another which might object to bounties apart from the unquestionable effect the system would

have on local markets. It it was intended to hand over fiscal control to the Federation they could not permit the colonieß to play fiscal experiments amongst themselves.

A proposal was made to protect bounties established before the 31st March last. Mr Isaacs (Victoria) moved — " That protection should exist up to the date of the establishment of the Commonwealth." Mr Barton objected bee int,e the colonies migat pile up bounties for an indefinite period before the date of the operation of the Commonwealth. Such a course might seriously interfere with the prime advantage of federation by intercolonial Freetwde. The committee got thoroughly confused over the subject, and the legal members were at variance one with another. The clause passed without amendment, on -the nnderstandicg that it will be recommitted later.

Mr M'Miilan made a long speech introducing the financial clauses. Mr Holder (Adelaide) said he saw a terrible risk to small colonies unless the federal treasurer's hands were tied. He was noc satisfied with the power of the Senate and the small representation they would have in the Lower House. He thought a certain sum should be absolutely returned to the States rai her than risk the solvency of the States by leaving the federal treasnrerfree to make such alow tariff as would cripple them. Sir G. Turner thought the great difficulty in the way was that most of the colonieß derived tbeir revenue from a protective tariff, while New South Wales was Freetrade. He estimated that the half million required would be provided for the Federal Government. They must take care that tbe State treaiurers for a certain number of years had' the full amount returned them equal to what they would give up when federation takes place. They must have a definite proposal. He preferred the bill on the point rather than leave it to the Federal Parliament If they had to make' *np the money required by direct texation there would be great difficulty in getting the people to accept federation in New Sooth Wales, for a few years would increase her revenue largely and consequently would pay over more to f edoration ; but the amount collected would gradually diminish as she ceased to import and took supplies from tbe neighbouring colonies or manufactured for herself, so that the amount contriouted through the customs to federation would gradually adjust itself to that of the other colonies. He was prepared to hand over the customs, post, telegraphs, and the administration of the public debt. He wished the surplus to be returned by a fixed percentage. Although he would like to see it returned par capita, it would not be fair to New South Wales or Westralia for the present. Mr Reid said he found that the difference on a capita basis was so enormous that, taking tbe average consumption of New South Wales during the past three years, she would leave the revenus with the Commonwealth, after getting a share back on the per capita basis sufficient to pay the whole expense of the Commonwealth. This was calculated on the present Victorian tariff, therefore it was impossible to apply a par capita basis from the beginning. He could not go back to New South Wales and ask the people to accept such a financial system. He would never be a party to loading the new Commonwealth with L 141,000,000 of debt, representing L 5.500,000. 500,000 in interest, while the States retained the railways and bad the net profits from that source (amounting to L 2,800,000) to play with as they liked. The suggestion made by Mr Rdd that four Colonial Treasurers confer and endeavour to form a scheme was then agreed to. The committee then went on with the clauses dealing with the Executive and executive government.

Sidney, April 18.

Mr Lyne, while on a short visit to Sydney, was interviewed with regard to the Federal

] Convention. He Baid the bill as il at present i Btands is not likely to prove acceptable to the large colonies He takes strong objection to the two Honses having equal representation. In the case of a crisis at any time the three smaller States would have a majority, and the Senate be in a position to ; dominate Parliament. His view is that the large States are giving up the right of selfgovernment, and Bhould secure themselves against the smaller States acting together and overpowering them. Hobart, April 17. The local newspapers take a gloomy view of federation. They state that there is no possibility of Tasmania joining the Union ' with the finances in the hands of New South Wales and Victoria. The three Taßmanian delegates who voted with the large States , are stigmatised as " traitors to State rights." \