DUNEDIN PRESBYTERY.

Otago Witness, Issue 2151, 16 May 1895, Page 36

DUNEDIN PRESBYTERY.

A pro rt nata moefcinj of the Dunedin Presbjtery was held in First Church on Tuesday morning, and attended by the Rtvs. J. SI. Fraser (moderator fro tern.), R. It. M. Sutherland, J. M. M'Kerrow, I. Jolly, A. Don, I. K. M'lutyee, D. Dutton, A. M. Finluywi), ministers ; Messrs D. Law, A. Cameron, W. Hutton, J. G. Sawell, D. A. M 4 Nicoll, and F. Marshall, elders. The circular calling the meeting, which was read, stated that the meeting was called to co isider an application from Port Chalmors for moderation iv a call. The. Rev. Mr Fincayson, as moderator of the Pott Chalmers session, introduced Captain Thomson and Mr C. R Bossence, commis«ioners from the ooDgreg»tion, requestiug moderation in a call. The minutes of a congregational meeting held on the 6th May were read by Captain Thomson, showing that the folio wing business was done :— ♦'Proposed : * That this meeting agree to give a unaiiimoua oall to the minister who shall have the majority of votes.' As an amendment it wbs moved : * That this matter be de'ayed until nexb meeting.' The amendment was lost; and the motion carried by a large majority, Proposed : • That this congregation do now take 6teps in the regular order of procedure to call a pastor to flli the vacancy in tbi» church.' Carried unanimously. Proposed : ' That a call be- given to the Rev. John Kilpatrick, of (Warepa, to the pastoral charge of this congregation.' A'soprcpDfed: • That a call be given to the Rev. John Anderson Gardiner, of the Bluff, to the pastoral charge of this congregation.' It was al«o moved : ' That application be made to the prcsbj tery to grant moderation in a call to a pastor for this church.' The la«t motion was lost, and on a vote being tak« n' 96 members and 84 adherents voted for the Rsv. Mr Gardiner, and 76 members aud 9 adbe-ents for the Rev. Mr Kilpatrick. Mr Neil Murray dissented, and Mr David Law adhered to the dissent." Captain Thomson said a very large majority of tre congregation hRd gone in the one direction, and for that retison he was prepared to follow in the same way, aud to support the name wh'en had received tho largest number of votes. He folt it was his duty to do this, and While they had all made it a matter of prayer, he folt sure that though their prayers might not have been answered as they asked, they were answered in God's way. He (the speaker) was willing to bow to the decision of the inn jority of the congreg«t ; on. Mr Bos?ence referred to the desire which had IoB« existed in tbe church to secure the services of Mr Gardiner. Two and a-half years ago he preached with much acceptance, drawing to the church nis ny who bad not previously attended any place of worship. His influence on the youth of the phce was shown by the remnrk of « police officer, who said that he had not seen any boys about the streets for two Sunday uighis, and when at last Mr Gardiner left the place he was presented with an address and a jmrfe of sovereigns, wbirh showed the estimation in which ho was held by the people. As tothe recent meeting in the church, it was the largest he' had seen in the building on a week day. They had organised, aB ptople did who supported a goo 1 c«use,nnd those who supported Mr Kilpatrick had their motions all prepared, while thote who favoured Mr Gardiner were in the same position. —(Mr N. Murray : " Only 15 minutes before the meeting.") The evening be r ore the meeting Mr Murray went to an elder and told him that he had been deppted by a certain member to sreond Mr Kilpatrick's nomination, and yet Mr Murray now said " 15 minutes befom the meeting." On looking into tbe figures be found that 260 were accounted for at tbe mf eting, and be was told that there were 21 who voted against the motion that the minority Bhould fall ia with the majority. The meeting committed themselves to the majority, and he could not see bow they could do otherwise without stultif j ing themselves, and he wbs confident they wore cot likely to do that. He bnd heard since the meeting that some members of the church had remarked that although they did not get the man they wanted, they would be loyal to the man who was coming. Mr Gardiner's preaching had been conducive to the benefit of tho church and the good of the place, and tome respectable and reputable people who went to no church had said to him they were pleast-d Mr Gardiner was coming, while one man sa ; d : •• It was he that brought me to church, and I thank God for it." The Cieek (the Rev. Mr Fiulayson) said he Lad received a petition from some of the elders as follows : — To the Moderator and Members of the Presbytery of Dunedin. Reverend Sirs,— We, the undersigned, members of the Ki»k Session of the Presbyterian Church of Port; Chalmers, for the glory of God and the good of our church, do prayei fully and humbly approach you by petition, requesting that you will take into serious consideration the following matters of which we here complain and givebuch declaration of your judgment in respect to same as may tend to promote the glory of God and the good of our church :— First, we direct your attention to the minutes of a congregational meeting held in our church on Monday, May 6, 1895, from which you will see Low that meeting was permitted to pass bo far Jjc-yon >ts legitimate purpose, which was (as per annul. nc ment from the pulpit) "to ascettain whether the congregation was prepared to call a .pastor " ; that it did further, in the face of remonstrance agaiast the proceedings, proceed to determine who that pastor is to be, and to ask your court to'grant moderation in a call to this person. Wo therefore protest against this finding as being contrary to the spirit and letter of the Order of Procedure as laid down for aur guidance in the book called ' H The Practice of the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland " ; and further, because we, feeling fully assured that that book did not warrant this meeting de%ling with any part of the business which in the Order of Procedure takes place when under moderation, we were not prepared ac we would have been to take part in the election of a pastor. We likewise do further complain that those present were ptrmitted to commit themselves to any pastor to take charge of our souls without being duly solemnised by sermon, and the sense of the responsibility of such action being deepened in their conscience by the •terms of the form of call being read to them Ibefore voting. Feeling assured that you will give tnrse matters that attention their importance call.-, for,— We are, &c., David Law, tfEiL Murray, Peter Sutherland. Andrew Davidson, William JHeneiaus, William Stewart, D. M'Callum, George Crawford. The Rev. Mr Sutherland asked how many ciders there wore. Captain Thomson : Thirteen. It was deeded to hear the petitionera, the majority of whom were present. Mt Law s»id he took exception io the mcc!;- . ing because the congregation were allowed to muUrfttand that they were there to vote for a »2in ; ster. Wh*t he and a good many more understood was that they were to go to the presbytery for an open call. A gr«-afc many on Mr Kilpatriok's side wore nob at the meeting, and consequently that gentleman's aupporterstvere at a serioui disadvantage when the voting came on. He protested against the matter hziog brought to a. point that night. In his locality there were three memberi who wonld fcave been at the church if they had known the

vote was to be taken, and others at Sawyera' Bay Wuuld also h^ve been present, so that the voting did not represent the feeling of the congregation. Tho meeting was the rowdiest he was ever at in-ths ohuron in hi 3 life. Ho waa sircy to etc it. It wu so rowdy that some of tiio Indies had to go out ; t'iey could uot Dtand the voice. There were at the meeting people ! b"l> inking to other churches, so th*t ha did not know how the 21 who voted against the first motion had been counted. As far as the petition was concerned, he would like to say th»t tho eight elders who signed it were dirtctly [ opposed to Mr Gu-diiier. Captain Thomson, another elder, moved that Mr Kilpatrick should be tbtir minister ; Mr Reid, another member of the 6e**ion, said nothing ; and Mr Tait and Mr Bossenre were the only two who were in favour oi Mr Gardiner. [The thiitsenth member of the session is absent from the colony.] For himself, be did not see how he could possibly st under Mr Gardiner's ministry, and there were others who, if Mr Gardiner went to the church, wool 1 have to res : gn their connection with it. If the vote were taken again he believed it would be in the opposite direction. Mr Murray, in a lengthy speech, said he believed that if they had auother meeting to teat the uumbers tbo result would come out the other w»y. They were satisfied that a wrong ! remit had been obtained, and if the presbytery could see their way ti give them an opportunity of testing the matter on a level and fair footing ho was hopeful that the result would be different, and a calamity averred such as they had not had in their church in all their previous experience. If, after this, they should prove to bo still in the minority, they did not wish it to be understood that all oppoHfcion would bo »t an end. On the contrary, it was contemplated by some to resi-t at the next stage. The Rev. Mr Suthkhlanb : There is no need to go iato that ju*b now. Mr Murray concluded by saying he hoped the pretbytery would find a means whereby the matter could be settled without breaking up the church, because that issue rested on this^ question. Messrs Crawford, Sutherland, and Stewart also epoke. Mr Tait, member of session, was given permission to speak. He would like to put it to Mr Law and his friends whether they did not understand what the meeting was called for. He could lead evidence to show that they were perfeotly well aware of the object of the meeting. For iustauce, these gentlemen, at the meeting of the session, before the congregational meeting was held, pointed oub that ie was absolutely necessary tb.it the communion roll should be ievifed aud made up to date in order to be available for the meeting. They distinctly understood then what the object of the meeting was, and Mr Btssence etruck the nail on the head when he said tbab these gentlemen had arrange d, not a day before but five or six days before, who were to propose and second Mr Kilpatrick at that niteting. Now they came and said it was a catch vote. It was unfair of hem. Legally speaking, he thought they had no standing at the presbytery's meeting, as the congregation had not had an opportunity of appointing commissioners to deal with the matter. As far as he knew, very few of the congregation knew anything at all about Mr Law and the other gentlemen who were with bim. being at the presbytery. At anyrate, he contended that it was clearly understood that the congregation were to 6eStle the matter, as had been done at Knox Church and the North Dunedin Church recently, and it was only when these gentlemen found that th«y were in a minority that they hoped by gaining time to g«t a majority on their side. It waa said by some of them at the first meeting of the set sion to consider the matter that if they did not get their own way it would result in the breaking up of the church. The Rev. Mr Sutherland asked what was the membership of the church. Captain Thomson j Two hundred and sixtyeight. Mr Law remarked that the communion roll hal not been revised for years, and now nobody knew how it was. It was decided to hear the commissioners in reply. Captain Thomson said it was well known — there was no denying the fact — that the meeting on the 6oh was to be a trial of streng h between the supporters of the two candidates. If thf y were to begiu de novo they would not have a larger meeting than they had. He believed Mr Kilpatrick would have nothing to do with them now, so that Mr Gardiner's support would be larger than ever.— (" Question.") If the meeting was in any way unpleasant, Mr Murray was the cause of it all. He kept the floor nearly all the evening, and led things iuto a ino3t confused Btate, Wut whether purposely or not he (the speaker) would not say. As to the vote, it was taken in an orderly way, and there could be no mistake about the numbers. Mr Bissence endorsed all that Captain TLomeon had said. It had been stated that there were a large number of members abs«nt, and he would like to say in reply to that tbab there were 268 members oh the church roll. Thirty of these were absentees, which left 238 The voting showed there were 172 present, aiid how, then, could it be said the number was inconsiderable ? As Captain Thomson had said, everybody knew about the meeting, and he was astounded to hear Mr Murray say that people did not know about it. Although eight elders signed the petition that did not nae&n that a large number of the congregation were of the same mind. The elders, he held, did not represent the people, which was proved' by tbe vote that was taken. The Clerk ('he Rev. Mr Fialaygon) said the presbytery had now heard the two sides of the question, and he wished to call attcution to some statements iv the petition which he considered rather btcong. "In the face of remonstrance against the proceedings the meeting proceeded to determine who the pastor is to be." He thought he made it clear at the meeting that although the meeting was an important one it was not the final meeting, but a preliminary one to find out bbc mind of the congregation. " Those present were permitted tn commit tbenwolves to any pastor." He thought that wa<i too strong. Although tho meeting waa no doubt; in that direction, yet that did' not exclude any name from being brought before the presbjkjry when the presbybery meb to moderate in a call. All the meeting did was to express their mind at the time, and- they did express their n>iod that Mr Gardiner should be called. They did that most distinctly, bub that did not exclude any further acfc'on being taken by those of a different mind, notwithstanding the mo'iou carried at the beginning of the met.ting. The^e was a very keen feeling in Fort Chalmers* over the matter, and those who were opposed to the resolution that was carried, had a fesling that they were bsing forced into a pasition that they were unprepared to go into ; but he did not think it would do for the r presbytery to adop*> the petition or to carry oat what the petition meant. It would mean that the prcbytery would have to obliterate the meeting aud let the congregfttion commence at tbe beginning again. That nould be going over the same ground for no purpose.

He would like to say, too, that although there was a certain amount of misunderstanding in the mepti >g it was uot rowdy. The.c was, no doubt, very lively fteling, and &0:n.3 very lively expivsiions of opinion were utcerod, bub still the nutting waa not iovdy. fc Tue Rev. Mr Sothbuland moved— "Thab tho prejbjtvry grant moderation in an opeu call, aud meet for this purpose in Port Chalmers Church on Tuesday, 28 b. inafc., at halfpast 7 p m., the moderator (the Rev. D. Boriie) to preside and preach." At that westing tho full strnigth of Mr Gardiner's voters and the Buppoiters of any other nnme that might be proposed could be th<r.\ aud the matter finally and, he liop^d, ami mbly settled. It would serve no good purpose to go over the same ground again. He trusted the question would be set' led peacefully. " Ble«ed is the peacemaker"; and he hoped that bit siing would rest in abundance upon the heads of all in this chinch The Rev. Mr Ddtton seconded the motion, saying that b^fch aides had been fairly put before the presbytery. In answer to the Moderator, Mr Murray said the object of the petitioners wag simply to lay bet ore the presbytery the faots the petition contained. The motion was put and carried unanimously.