N. Z. PARLIAMENT.

Otago Witness, Issue 1957, 27 August 1891, Page 12

N. Z. PARLIAMENT.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 19.

The Legislative Council had an unusually long sitting to-day. A petition from Lieu-tenant-Colonel Macdonnell was referred to the favourable consideration of the Government. The discussion on the report of a committee that the Shop Hours Bill be not proceeded with was adjourned. The amendments of the House in the Trustees Bill were not agreed to The Post and Telegraph Officers' Classification, Distillation and Customs, and Exoise Duties Bills were read a second time after some discussion,

DISTILLATION BILL. The Hon. P. BUCKLEY moved the second reading of the Distillation Bill, which he explained was devised to encourage wine growing in the colony. The Hon. Dr GRACE remarked that the bill appeared to him a measure to foster the manufacture of bad wise. The only industry which was successful in the colony was that carried on in Hawke's Bay by a party of Frenchmen who used alcohol to fortify, their wine because the public would persist in drinking new wine ; and they, therefore, were compelled to put sugar and alcohol into their grape juice to the iajary of the people of the colony. i The Hon. J. FULTON opposed the bill, which had been brought down solely in the interests of a Wanganui wine grower.

The Hon. Dr POLLEN considered that the Legislature should give wine growers an opportunity of proving that the bill was necessary. The Hon. W. H. REYNOLDS had ascertained that it was necessary for wine growers to fortify their product with alcohol, and, therefore, he should support the motion. His only objection was that the bill might open a way to illegal distillation. The Hon. Mr STEVENS expressed t a hope that the bill, which was similar to a measure brought down last year, would be allowed to pass. ■ The Hon. Mr BOWEN thought that it was quite possible to make good wholesome wine without being fortified. He was apprehensive that if passed the bill would open up the way to illegal distillation. The Hon. Mr PEACOCK would be in favour of the bill if clause 8 were expunged.

The Hon. Mr BARNICOAT expressed a hope that the bill would be passed, if only that it might open np another local industry. The motion for the second reading was carried on the voices.

TOBACCO MANUFAOTUEB.

The Hon. P. BUCKLEY moved the second second reading of the Customs and Excise Duties Bill, which he explained was designed to foster growing the tobacco plant within the colony. The Hon. Mr PHARAZYN failed to see why the colony should be called upon to pay a large subsidy yearly in order to foster an industry which, to say the least of it, was a very questionable one. As a Freetrader he objected to the bill, and would support an amendment, if such were proposed, that the bill be read a second time that day six months. The Hon. Mr STEVENS criticised the bill adversely, and referred to the fact that whilst in Victoria 2,000,0001b of tobacco were grown every year, with few exceptions it had been grown by Chinamen, Europeans from some cause or other not having been, up to the present, successful. It appeared to him that this continual interference with the natural course of events was like endeavouring to make water run up a hill. The Hon. Dr GRACE! said the question the Council had to consider was whether they were prepared to protect an' industry at the expense of a large number of persons who were compelled to sink vast : sums of money in keeping up stocks of tobacco. He should vote against the second reading. The second reading was agreed to by 13 to 11.

In the House of Representatives, after the telegraph office olosed this moming, the Land and Income Assessment Bill was passed. Yesterday afternoon- the report of the Petitions Committee on G. W. Ell's case was adopted after discussion. The report of the committee on the New Plymouth Harbour Board loans opened up the whole question of the colony taking over the liabilities of the harbour boards, and after discussion the matter was adjourned. Replies to questions occupied the remainder of the sitting. In the evening a considerable amount of business was transaoted. The Loans to Local Bodies Bill, providing for making advances to make roads to open up lands, was read a second time. The Council's amendments in the Track Bill were agreed to; bat two of the alterations made in the Auctioneers Bill were disapproved of. The Lunatics Act Amendment Bill, after being amended in committee, Marriage Act Amendment Bill and Consolidated Stock Bill were passed. The Mining Bill was considered in committee and progress reported.

LAND AND INCOME ASSESSMENT BILL.

After the Telegraph Office closed, The Hon. J. BALLANCE twitted the Opposition with taking a doleful view of the results that would ensue from the operation of the Government polioy, and with being unable to show that a land and income tax was wrong. He denied that the banks were being let off, and said that they would actually pay more under the new taxes than they did under the property tax, while they also paid stamp duties upon their notes, and would come under the graduated tax upon land on which their city offices stood. He claimed that the new system would give an enormous relief to the small and middle class farmers. It was intended iot only, for revenue purposes, but also to relieve the springs of industry and to encourage bona fide settlers. His polioy was "New Zealand for New Zealaoders," and he had not muoh regard for those who were continually threatening to shake the dust of the colony off their feet, and were sending their sons and their capital to the Argentine. Threats of that kind should only harden up those who sought to make New Zealand a desirable place for its own inhabitant?, aud sbape its policy so as to suit its own people. He challenged the Opposition to name any one industry that would languish because of the Government policy, The wide distribution of property which was to be brought about would tend to make property more secure than ever, rather than destroy the rights of property, as bad been asserted. He admitted that the taxation of improvements above £3000 was a blot on the system, and that he would have preferred to. have exempted improvements altogether. He hoped enough revenue would be raised to enable this to be done next year. Though amendments most be made, the policy was one which would secure confidence, and he predicted that when the time came for the Government to leave office the verdict of the country would be favourable. The bill was then passed by 30 to 14. HBPLIE9 TO QUESTIONS.

Replying to Mr Reeves ilnangahaa), The Hon. J. G. WARD said the Government would make careful inquiries in the direction of eradicating the disease known as fool brood in bees.

Replying to Mr Earnshaw, The Hon. W. P. REEVES said he proposed to commuoioate with the edaoation boirda in

the colony to see how boards would be prepared to accept school books supplied by the Education department. As soon as he received their replies he would be in a position to say what could be done in this direction.

Replying to Mr Cam cross,

The Hon. Mr SEDDON said he should confer with the Railway Commissioners as to the desirability of making further reductions on the freight charges on lime used by farmers as manure. He believed further reductions could be made. The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. LOANS TO LOCAL BODIES.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCE moved the second reading of tho Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill to enable the Government to lend money to local bodies in the colony for making roads through unsold land, the sum not to exceed £50,000 in any one yearT The money advanced to local bodies was to be refunded from the proceeds of lands, and 5 per cent, was to be charged for it.

The Hon. Mr BRYOB said the bill seemed to him to be fictitious and unreal on the face of it. The expenditure contemplated by- the bill was expenditure for loan and not the land fund. The process intended for recouping it was also perfectly unsound, and could noV be carried out.' He asserted that money borrowed under this bill could never be returned except from ordinary revenue.

The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON agreed with the last speaker as to the scope of this bill. It was Bimply a pretence of repayment of the money that would be advanced to those local authorities.

Mr MACARTHUR had always advocated that roads should be made through land before it was sold, and the cost of such roads should be added to the price of the land. If this addition were made to the bill it would be mach more satisfactory, otherwise they would have to go on the London market and raise a loan to extinguish the debt which was increasing under this bill.

The Hon. T. FERGUS thought the intention of this bill was good, as it was in the dheefion of enabling settlers to make roads and bridges through the country. He should propose some amendments in committee.

Mr RHODES thought the bill gave the Minister of Lands power to spend £50,000 where he pleased, and in any member's constituency that he chose. He objected to such a power being exercised without the control of the House.

Mr BUCHANAN sympathised with the proposal to open up the country by roads and bridges, but he thought the bill would put too much power in the hands of any Government. > Sir JOHN HALL said this bill proposed a permanent appropriation of £50,000 a-year to be spent by the Minister of Lands, and that was a proposal he objected to. The 5 per cent, interest proposed was too high, and the 4 per cent, sufficient, especially with the guarantee of the colony. The Hon. G. P. RICHARDSON said the money was not there to repay the sums to be advanced under the hill, as the land revenue had for the last few years been declining. He was rather surprised that the Government proposed to take a portion of the land fund for repayment of interest on the sums advanced under the bill, and he did not see how they could afford it. They all knew by experience that the land fund could not repay money. Mr MACKINTOSH thought the Government should have some money to advance for the purpose required, although £50,000 might protyably be too much. He knew, as an old colonist, the great necessity that existed for opening up land, and he hoped the bill would pass. ! The Hon. Mr BALLANCB referred to the various objections made to the, bill. As to the amount of interest, lie pointed oat that the Government would borrow at 4 per cent,, and lend the money at 5 (per cent., and have 1 per cent, to go .towards a sinking fund. With respect to Mr Bryce's reminder about the deficit in the land fund, which would be increased when this bill passed, he asked how opening up a block of land would increase the deficit in the land fund. He held that, so far from increasing the deficit, they would reduce it. The Government were not taking anything out of the land fund, but were adding to it, and the more they extended the system, the better it would be for that fund.

XAJNATICS ACT.

The Lunatics Act Amendment Bill was committed.

, Clause 5, empowering a medical officer to send a discharged lunatic not cured to a benevolent institution, was struck out.

Mr W. HUTCHISON (Dunedin) moved a new clause to the effect that a supposed lunatic should be frequently examined, in order that care might be taken that no person should be confined in a lunatic asylum who was not really a lunatic.

The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said this was a dangerous provision to insert in the bill. The Hon. Mr CADMAN hoped the clause would not be pressed, as it was not desirable to insert it in the bill.

After a very lengthy discussion, the clause was lost on the voices.

Mr W. HUTCHISON moved another clause repealing section 139 of the principal act, and inserting instead— that the Governor shall appoint at least six official visitors to each public lunatic asylum in the colony, men of good repute in whom relatives of patients and the public can repose confidence. — Lost on the voices.

MINING BILL.

The Mining Bill was further considered in committee, and the remaining clause passed with the amendments made by the GoldfieWs Committee. New clauses were postponed till next sitting, and progress was reported. The Marriage Act Amendment Bill, Consolidated Stock Bill, and Luna ties Act Amendment Bill were read a third time and passed.

THE COAL MINES BILL.

The Goldfields and Mines Committee have made some important alterations in the Coal Mines Bill, which was reported to the House to-day. They recommend that all applications for a lease for raising coal should be advertised twice in some newspaper circulating in the district. Any amalgamation or consolidation of leases must be sanctioned by a resolution of the House. In the clause binding owners of leases of coal mines to supply railways and ships with coal it is provided that a supply can be demanded only when the mine is being worked ; that it need not be more thaa is necessary for seven days' consumption; and that it need be supplied only during ordinary working hours. The committee further recommend that the three persons who with the Director of Geological Survey, the Surveyor - genera], the Insp* ctiog Engineer of Mines, and the Inspector of Machinery shall constitute the Board of Examiners under the act, shall be required to hold mine managers' certificates. They consider that before a person can obtain a certificate as mine manager he ought to be able to show that he has had 10 years' practical experience in coal working and has been actually employed in the underground workings of a coal mine as a mine manager or deputy mine manager for three yeaw, and persons employing «ny unoertifioated or dJiqnaJifled mine manager or engtaediiver

shall bo liable to a penalty not exceeding £5 for" every day the man is so employed. Any person who has been employed for eight consecutive hours in a mine shall not resume work until after an interval of four hours. There was some discussion by the committee on the clause empowering the Crown to contract with the owner or lessee of a coal mine on private land for the purchase of the land or for the purchase of interests in a mine, and it was considered by some of the committee that this was too great a power to be given without reserve to the Government. A condition has been added that any such transaction must be .sanctioned by a resolution of the House before it can be legal.

THE NEW TAXATION.

A member gives me the following list, which he has compiled, of the amendments and alterations made in the Land and Income Assessment Bill in committee :— (1) A tax oh absentees has been imposed ; (2) an income tax on Crown tenants; (3) exemption of small mortgages ; (4) relief from bursting up graduated taxation upon factories, woollen mills, &c. ; (5) true building societies exempted; (6) graduation made more even ; (7) freeing of all improvements from graduation ; (8) makiug alike the exemptions of , incQfre ;tax. quon'. traders, professions, he. ; (9) improved machinery of clauses ; (10) £500 exemptions graduated upwards (Mr Saunders) ; (11) 10 years' improvement olause greatly bettered; (12) life insurance premiums up to £50 exempted ; ( IS) improved shipping clauses ; (14) banks to pay income tax on mortgages; (15) loan and building societies specially legisI lated for

PETITIONS.

The Waste Lands Committee reported to-day as follows on the petition of A. Stewart and others, Wendon, Ofcago, asking that the control of the education reserves may be taken from the School Commissioners of Qtago and handed over to the local Waste Lands -Board : — That this petition be referred to the Government for consideration.

The Public Petitions Committee (M to Z) recommend that Thomas Quill, whose son .lost his life in Ofcago while in the employ of the Government, be given a gratuity of £50.

CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM.

The Constitutional Reform Committee are framing their report, and it will shortly be presented to Parliament. A complete change in the present system of Government will, it is understood, be recommended.

THURSDAY, AUGUST 20.

In the Legislative Council to-day a number of bills were considered. The River Board, Public Revenue, and Selectors' Land Revaluation Act Continuance Sills were read a second time. The latter was adversely criticised, and referred to the Waste Lands Committee. The Distillation Bill was passed.

SELECTOBS' LAHD REVALUATION BIIL.

The Hon. F. BUCKLEY moved the second reading of the Selectors' Lauds Revaluation Aot Continuance and Amendment Bill, and briefly explained the provisions of ths measure. The Hon. Mr STEVENS pointed out that the late Government introduced a bill which had a far wider scope for the relief of selectors, yet the Legislature in its wisdom rejected it, and still another bill was subssquently introduced having for its object the relief of Crown tenants, which also met with a similar fate. The bill before the Council referred to farm homestead settlements, but he failed to ascertain what class of settlers this designation referred to. He reviewed the provisions of the bill; referring especially to the fourth clause, which provided for a revaluation upon a revaluation. Where, he asked, was this matter of revaluation to end ? The matter required the closest scrutiny of the Waste Lands Committee, to which the bill most be referred.

The Hon. Sir &. S. WHITMORE was afraid that the bill, if passed, would leave a certain class of selectors, namely, pastoral tenants, out in the cold, and he thought, all classes of Grown tenants should be included.

. The Hon. Mr SHRIMSKI regretted be could not oompliment the Government upon the bill. He had opposed former revaluation bills, there* fore he must consistently oppose the present bill. He quoted figures to show the loss the State bad suffered by reductions by the passing of the last Revaluation Bill, which, he believed, had been brought down solely for-eleetioneering purposes. He should oppose the bill, as he believed that persons who were now applying for relief were not entitled to it; and he only regretted that at the present juncture he did not feel himself strong enough to move that the bill be read a second time that day six months. The Hon. G. M'LEAN opposed the bill, which, in his opinion, was not required. He objected strongly to a selector who had obtained revaluation only two years ago being entitled to yet another under the provisions or the present bill. The Hon. Dr POLLEN saw no other thing for it but to insist upon every selector visiting a land office for the purpose of obtaining State land taking his grandmother with him. The bill would have the effect of fostering dummyism. If tha Government tinkered with these Land Bills year after year they mast expect that selectors would come into the Legislature year after year like whipped hounds crying for relief in connection with lands which they had selected with their eyes open. The Hon. Mr BOWEN expressed a hope that the Waste Lands Committee would scrutinise the bill very carefully. The report of the committee would be very anxiously awaited. The Hon. Dr GRACE and Mr FULTON opposed the bill, as some finality in dealing with State tenants must be arrived at. The COLONIAL SECRETARY, having replied, the second readiog was agreed to, and the bill was referred to the Waste Lands Committee.

In the House of Representatives to-day a discussion on the report of the Petitions Committee with reference to the dismissal of Lieutenar-t-colenel Humfrey occupied some considerable time, and questions were postponed to allowed of some private members bills being advanced a stage. A motion to appoint a commission -to deal with alleged grievances which have been brought before the House for some time by petitions was rejected. Mr O'Oonor's motion to establish homes and farms for destitute people was talked out. In the evening the House decided not to insist on its amendments in the Trustees Bill objected to by the Council. Sir George Grey's Law Practitioners Bill has at length been passed, and is even more liberal than he proposed, for if it passes the other chamber the law will be open to females. The Book Purchasers' Protection Bill also passed. Sir George Grey's Friendly Societies Bill, aimed at the Union Steam Ship Company's benefit scheme, then came under consideration in committee. It was discovered that to gain its object the measure must be made retrospective, and it was made retrospective accordingly. Mr Mills failed to get the House to agree to an employer being a member of the committee of any society. The Gaming and Lotteries Bill was under consideration when the Telegraph Office olosed.

LIEUTENANT- COLONEL HUMFBB7, The Pablic Petitions Committee reported on

the petition of Lieutenant-colonel Humfrey, late' Undersecretary for Defence, to the effect that in their opinion the petitioner was most wrongfully retired from the office, bat that his services were dispensed with ou the score of economy. Captain RUSSELL referred at some length to this case, and characterised it as being one of great injustice to the late Undersecretary of Defence. He asserted that that gentleman had been dismissed from the civil service by the present Defence Minister because he remon-v afcrated with Mr Seddon for having ordered that a torpedo man who had been formerly dismissed for drunkenness should be reappointed. Hon. gentlemen, he said, could draw their own in*' ferenoe, but as a matter of fact Lieutenantcolonel Hamfrey was dismissed from office as Undersecretary of Defence the day after he remonstrated against the reinstatement of a torpedo man. The Hon. R. J. SEDDON said the reason why Captain Russell (ex-Defence Minister) had shown so much warmth over this matter was that both he (Captain Rassell) and Lieutenantcolonel Humfrey had placed the House and country in a false position. It was notorious that the late Under- secretary for Defence was a most extravagant officer, and he asserted that he had been dismissed for no other reason than "that of economy. He could also assure the House that the Cabinel. had decided to dispense with Lieutenant-colonel Humfrey's services some days before it had been resolved to reinstate the torpedo man referred to. By dispensing with Lieutenant-colonel Humfrey and appointing Colonel Hume Acting Undersecretary, there was a clear saving* of the salary, pf Under* secretary.. r Lieutenant-colonel Humfrey had received three months' salary ' on being dismissed, and also £800 compensation, and he was now employed' at 10s per day in the Government j buildings, so he failed to see the great injustice | that Lieutenant-colonel Humfrey had suffered: j After referring to the whole case at great length, be said he should allow the House and country to judge between Captain Russell and himself. , < The Hon. T, FERGUS said every statement made by Mr Seddon over this matter only plunged him deeper into the mire, and it was evident that Captain Russell's thrust had told heavily against him. He asserted, notwithstanding the applause that ■ had just followed Mr Seddon's remarks from' the Ministerial supperters, that when Mr Seddon's gross maladministration of his department came to be fully known in the country, people all over the colony would be filled with scorn over the actions of the present Defence Minister. Mr DUNCAN deprecated questions of this kind beiDg allowed to take up the time of the House in this manner to the exclusion of other business. He hoped they would have no more of this kind of thing, otherwise the Opposition would find the other side of the House would have something "to say on it. MrBUCKLAND reminded the House that the present Government party in a former session spent week after week, and month after month, in wilful obstruction ; yet because Captain Russell occupied 15 minutes in referring to a serious'matter,. of , this kind,, which concerned the discipline of the whole defenba force, they were accused of 'obstruction.' He thought it an extraordinary' proceeding that,' a 'man who had' been 'found drtinfe; qn^ fluty should* be not only reinitiated by tfie Defence Minister, but actually promoted afterwards. ■-. Captain RUSSEWJ said it was a very carious' thing if Lieutenant -colonel Humfrey's dismissal were reospmended.bjr ,$e Cabinet that, the Premier sajg he knew nothing, about it. , The Hon. Mr BALLANOB said he had no recollection of saving so; • " / Captain RUSSELL Accepted- that, but said his informant was Lieutenant-colonel Humfrey, who had authorised him to say the Premier told him he knew nothing about his dismissal. He (Captain Russell) had also been informed, on good authority, that four Ministers had stated, they "knew* nothing' about Lieu,t.colonel Humphrey's dismissal. * Mr Seddon had charged him (Captain Russell)* with having spent £23,000: unauthorised by Parliament; although he' credited*- him with 'being only responsible for two-th'irds'of, it. J He.'sbpnld like to ask the Premier, however, what share he had in authorising £17,000. for thei Stark purchase in Auckland ; and also *£60,000 i for village settlements, which Mr Ballanoe had spent without the authority of Parliament. : , The House would fiad there wece no real reductions made in the Defence department at all, and he was firmly convinced that if Lieutenant-colonel Humfrey had been ordered to make 'any redactions be would have done so. If Mr Seddon had given his late'underseoratary an opportunity of assisting him in effecting economy- he would have done so, as he (Captain Russell) had found that he was a useful and valuable officer. The Hon. Mr SEDDON said with respect to Captain Russell's statements that four Ministers had stated they were not consulted about Lieutenant-colonel Humfrey's dismissal,he could refer him to the Cabinet minutes on the matter. In each case the Minister in charge of each department had submitted to the Cabinet the names of officers whom they recommended for dismissal. That being so, was it right for Captain Russell to state that the Premier had informed Lieutenant-oolonel Humfrey that he knew nothing about his dismissal. The report was finally ordered to be laid on the table. RATING OF ATHEN2EUMS, LIBRARIES, ETC. With reference to the proposed exemption of athenaeums, libraries, museums, and cognate institutions from rates under the Municipal Corporations Aot, in regard to which a deputation waited on the Premier on Tuesday last. Mr JRoub) Marfcea/the president of the WelliDgtoa Afchenaßum, received the following letter today, from the Premier's private secretary : — " The Premier desires me to inform you that he has given notice for a supplementary order paper of his intention when the Municipal Corporations Bill is in committee to add to clause 9 : • Athenaeums, mechanics' institutes, free libraries, and museums, to be exempt from rating.' " THE INSTITUTE OP SURVEYORS. It was hoped by Mr Richardson that the New Zealand Institute of Surveyors Bill would have been passed without much discussion as a measure to which no serious objection could be taken ; but now that bill is before the Waste j Lands Committee it is meeting with some opposi- J tion, because, as is alleged, it will tend to make the surveyor's profession a cloß9 corporation. Mr Richardson claims, on the other hand, that \ fbe bill will be of great benefit to the public in protecting them from incompetent worft, exces- j sive charges, &c. At this stage of the session the opposition to the measure may have considerable effect in preventing it from becoming law. THE LABOUR BILLS. The Libour Bills Committee of the Legislative Council reported to-day on the petition of the Auckland female printers (which I telegraphed somewhat fully a few days ago) against certain provisions of the Factories Bill as having a tendency to deprive a large number of industrious women of their sole means of livelihood. The committee state that the bill is bow before them, and that the prayer of the

petitioners will receive most careful consideration at the committee's hands. It is anticipated that both this bill and the Shop Hoars Bill will receive a very severe handling in Committee of the Council, if, indeed, they survive j the operation of dissection to which they will assuredly be subject, which is highly problematical. Assuredly the Council will not pass either of these bills nnless after a radical revision, and almost entire remodelling, while it is questionable whether the House will accept such amendments as alone would satisfy the CounoiMconsequently the prospects of these bills are distinctly gloomy. . THE LAW PRACTITIONERS BILL. The bill which Sir George Grey has brought forward for so many years, and which does away with the necessity for the general knowledge examination for candidates for the bar, passed the Lower' House to-night with an important amendment by which women are to' be allowed to practise in the courts of law. This amendment was made' at the suggestion of Mr R. Thompson, of Marsden. He said that it was only just that they Bhould have this right, especially as it was probable that the women would have the franchise. •• It is well known." said Mr Thompson, "that women have just as great debating powers as men, and are as well able to hold their own in court as oat of court/ This remark caused general laughter. Sir George Grey amidst applause announced that he would accept the amendment which eventually -was passed without dissent. Mr Buckland had so much to say about the bill that he was charged with attempting to raise factious opposition. This he flatly denied. He objected strongly to the provision by which people are to be admitted without fee to the bar and to the use of the Supreme Court libraries. At last the bill passed through committee, and was read a third time. On the question that the bill do now pass, Mr Buckland, in order to "Hansardise" his opinion, again entered his protest against' the' provision mentioned. Whilst he was speaking a sensation was caused in the i House by a shock of earthquake, one of the severest felt in Wellington for some years. The i building swayed under its influence during the second or so in which it lasted. Though there was some consternation Mr Buckland was not mtcn affected by the earthquake, and was understood to say that it was an omen of the enormity of the bill they were passing. THE NEW PLYMOUTH HARBOUR BOARD. 1 The member for Egmont (Mr M'Guire) is anxious that the position of the New Plymouth | Board loan shall be fully discussed this session. He does not appear to have very great hope ! that the, report of the committee recommending thai the indebtedness be taken over by the colony will be adopted, but he says that the board will be satisfied if the Government give back to them the endowments, which they took away. If that is done the board will have no further claims on the colony 1 ; Mr E. M. Smith is to leav§ to-morrow for ;New Plymouth, as he intends to consult) the members' of the board, and, if T it is thought 'necessary; call a public meeting of the ratepayers, to be held on SaturI day evening, to consider this subject. STATE RELIEF. The Premier said, in discussing a motion to-day recommending the adoptioifof a .'scheme of land settlement, that he believed "laiia might be set aside for the a ge^ r and/those who are unable to do ordinary work, and who have gone down in the battle of life. Thus some place different from the workhouse might be established to which such people might retire in the evening of their days. The difficulty, Jwwfiverriwas'kff give ,P|feot> to such a plan. It-was necessary that it's^puld be given* effect to,* because there %aS^notßing morir grading to>our:t>iviHBatioh"*than'to^ system of Great Britain, and it is a system that we are approaching < in*/ this 'country. The Government intended to take the subject into serious consideration. -,;• MISCELLANEOUS, . . Al'roundA 1 ' round o# applause wa&givemto^Mr Geoi Fisher to-night when his Book Purchasers' Protection Bill was passed through committee without amendment. t ,< t > j , '-^.,' " V v "l''. : 'J Mr W. Hutchison urges that it is desirable for the Government to appoint a commission to inquire into the internal management and general administration of the lunatic asylums of the colony, and also as to_ the best means of maKDg-'to^oSss'ary T and rr sepSrat«r'provTBi6n "for * harmless- and qniet> patients. ■ ' The address to the Czar from- the House has been engrossed and illuminated, and was laid on the table of the House to-day for the inspection of member's,. ■ ; According to the Premier, Mr J. W, Thomson is responsible fer the initiation of the village settlement scheme. Mr W. Kelly maintains that the scheme was introduced by Sir G. Grey when he brought' the village settlers to Panmure and other places about Auckland. | FRIDAY, AUGUST 21. In the Legislative Council to-day the Post and Telegraph Classification Bill was passed. The Consolidated Stock Bill and the Lunatics Bill were read a second time. The Customs Duties and Excise Bill was considered in committee, and farther consideration postponed. In the House of Representatives tc-cfay morning, after the telegraph office closed, the Gaming and Lotteries Act Amendment Bill was reported with amendments. Sir George Grey's Friendly Societies Bill .was passed, and came up in the Council yesterday with the same gentleman's Law Practitioners Bill, both being read a second time. On the House meeting this afternoon Mr Fish again asked his question regarding the alleged conversation in a railway carriage between Dr Macgregor and Mr W. L. Simpson, the publication of which he admitted was contemptible. The adjournment of the House was moved by MrM.J.S. Mackenzie to protest against such a question being put, and he and other other members' expressed very strong opinions on the point. After further questions had been answered, the Premier proposed his resolution to remove Mr R. C. Hamerton from the office of Public Trustee. Captain Russell moved an amendment to the effect that the proposal was unconstitutional. The debate was continued till the adjournment for dinner, and on resuming it was postponed. The Payment of Members Bill then came on for its seoond reading, the leader of the Opposition moving an adverse amendment. About midnight a division was taken, and Mr Bryce's amendment was rejected by 33 to 24. BBPLIES TO QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Joyce, The Hon. J. BALLANOE said the Government had do power to purchase large estates, bat they hoped to obtain power under the Land Settlement Bill. PAYMEKT OF MEMBERS I The Hon. J. BALLANCE moved the second reading of the Payment of Members Bill. He i said they had for many years what wrb called an houcrariuoi, but the more op'm course would j i have b?en to call it payment of members. The Government were not making in any respect a 1 uew departure by this bill, as for many years

payment of members had prevailed in the other colonies. In Victoria members were paid £300 per annum, and now the same amount was paid in New South Wales. He had long been an advocate for payment of members, and he held that it was a just and proper principle. It had been said that there were long sessions in Victoria, but he found there were not more working days in a Victorian session than our own. It might be asked whether the amount proposed— viz., £240 a year for the House and £150 for the Legislative Council— was adequate, and he would point out that members were certainly put to great -expense by virtue of their position. He held also that £150 was not too much for members of the Legislative Council, as he thought that body should comprise a fair number of, members representing labour. In his opinion £240 was only a fair remuneration for members who had to live in Wellington for the whole session. If members were not fairly paid there would be only one class of members who could afford to come to Parliament; and that would be against the interest of democracy. The Government believed £240 was a fair amount ; but that, of course, would have to be settled by committee of the House. The bill would also prevent the scandal that arose out of two sessions and separate, payment for each session, as it would provide for £240 being paid yearly by monthly payments. He hoped members would not make lengthy speeches on the bill as, of coarse, the chief consideration of the bill would be in committee.

The Hon. Mr BRYCB supposed they should all feel justified in regarding this bill as one of the Government policy measures. The Government had many policies. They had a taxation policy, a labour policy, and a retrenchment policy, and he should call this a fourth one— a policy of lavish kindness to members. The Premier had not defended the bill in any way; He had referred to Victoria, but the sessions there lasted eight or nine months in the year. In that colony £300 a year was paid, but Ministers there were also paid higher than in this colony, and the reason of that was of coarse that the necessities of this colony prevented higher salaries being paid. As to the argument that members were pat to so much expense he pointed out that every member could attend to his own business directly- the' session was over, and did not require £240 a year to meet the expenses he was put to. No one in the colony denied the right of members, to receive a, moderate payment, although many contended that that amount should not be ho large as Jto place them under the head of professional politicians. He held that the £150 at present received was sufficient honorarium as payment for members' services. The reason why such a moderate amount had been paid to Ministers and members hitherto was owing to the necessity for economy, and that was an additional argument why no such increase should be paid as that j proposed. He protested therefore against ' members being paid £90 a year more than they had been receiving. He objected still more to pay £150 a year to members of the Legislative Council, many of whom lived in the city of Wellington and were put to no < expense whatever 'by attendance at Parlia- , ment. The Premier also- proposed to increase! the payment of Legislative Councillors residing out of Wellington by £50 a-year, and he protested against such lavish expenditure. If the r colony -was going to pay its enormous amount of interest they were not justified in flinging away | money in this manner. They were also told that the Government' intended paying large sums of money fyt commissioners who bad , seats. in the House, and he held 'thiV Was-highly* im-' proper. The increase of Ministers' salaries would follow s# a matter 'of bourse, and although Ministers no doubt would tit; first object to such a proposal, it would be forced, on them by their , own supporters.' If Ministerial salaries were in- 1 creased it would be part of; the, Government policy^ but he failed to see" how *it could be i called a.pelioy of retrenchment. - Then they had i the question of Agent-general still dangling., before the eyes or members, which be held should have been decided before now. He should | oppose this' bill in consequence of the necessities j of the country not warranting it, also because he objected to political embracery of every kind, j He'moved— •' That the bill be read a second time that day six months." '

Mr MOORE seconded the amendment. He said he was astonished to find that the present Government, who posed before the country as extreme economists, 'should endeavour to pay members of the House not only this session, but the last short session, higher remuneration than they had ever received before. He hoped the amendment would be carried, as he felt sure the country would be opposed to any inorease in the payment of members.

Mr TANNER said he had been returned to Parliament as one possessing some advanced ideas, bat the bill before the House was altogether too advanced for him. He had advocated strict economy in the public service, and he had not the slightest idea that a measure of this kind would be proposed by the Government. The proposal before the House at the present time came with particularly bad grace, too, in the face of the heavy customs duties on necessaries of life. There was also the condition of the industrial and labour classes in the colony, and these did not warrant such inorease in the payment of membera' salaries. The time was inopportune for a measure of this kind, and he should not support the Government when he thought they were in the wrong, as he did in the present instance. There were many other imoortant questions which the Government said they had no time to bring in this session, and yet they had brought in this bill because it was forced on them by individual followers. He should on this occasion vote against the Government.

Mr TAYLOR did not altogether approve of this bill, but he should vote for the second reading, so that the amount of payment might be fixed in committee.

Mr SAUNDERS would not vote for the second reading or any other stage of this bill. He could hardly have believed that the Government would have betn so unwise as to put not only a whip, but a cord, into the hands of their opponents by bringing in suoh a bill as this. He had never voted for any each inorease as this, and he denied that any improvement would take place in the class of members if this bill were given effect to. They had no right to receive anything more than was absolutely necessary to pay for their board and, lodging while attending the session. He held that they would in that way get a better olass of members than if they held ont; a bait of this kind to professional politicians. There would be nothing more unpopular or discreditable to the House than to pass a bill o£ this kind, and he felt sure if they went back to tha country after passing it they would bring disgrace oo tha country that would discredit greatly the other work done. Sir G. GREY agreed with those who said payment of members was necessary. The question then was what was a proper amount. A proper amount to hia mind was what would bo sufficient to enable a man of the middle class to maintain a wife and family while ha attended to his duties in Parliament. He sLould ask tte Honte to refrain as far as possible from committing itself till the bill got into committee, and if the bill

was proceeded with the amount could then be decided npor.

Mr T MAC KBNZIE (Clutha) thought at the present time they should not support a bill of this kind, as the finances of the country did not warrant it. If the Ministry continued to increase the expenditure as they were doing they would get back to the state of things that prevailed in 1887. If members^were to be remune-; rated afef Sir G. Grey advocated, £240 would not be sufficient for that. He said the present bill was an indication of the reckless expenditure the Government was about to indulge in, and if, they Were not careful they would go back to the< condition of things in 1887, when there was a 1 deficit of nearly £500,000 owing to extravagance.! He should support Mr Bryce's amendment. Mr J. MILLS (Port Chalmers) had no objection to members receiving an honorarium for their expenses, but he should oppose the present, bill, as he considered that whilst they were still retrenching in all directions it was very unbecoming for members to increase their own salaries. A change of this kind should not be made till after the general elections, and if the people approved of it the bill could then be j passed. ! Mr O'CONOR agreed with other members that this bill was brought forward at an unfortunate time, and he thought what was sufficient payment for the last Parliament should be sufficient for the present one. Here was a wretched barren session, and they were going to wind it up by passing a bill of this kind. He hoped the House would reject it. j Mr MACKINTOSH supported the bill. He j was glad they had at last a Parliament in New Zealand worthy of the occasion, who would support the Government in passing a Liberal measure. The payment of £240 a year for members was not too much by any means, and it would be calculated to get a superior olass of men in the House.

Mr REES said if there were regular payment of members, they would be compelled to remain in the House till the work was done, instead of two-thirds of the work being left unfinished as at present was the case. He should support the bill, bat he held himself perfectly free to vote for any snm in committee either for this House or the Council. His opinion was that the mass of the people were in favour of paying those who represented them fair and reasonable expenses to enable them to represent them fairly. Mr MILLS (Waimea-Ficton) said he should have no false modesty over this bill, and would support it in the interests of democratic institutions.

Mr SWAN was entirely opposed to this measure, and thought the £150 they were now receivicg was ample fot even the poorest man to pay his expenses and to carry on the work of the country. His opinion was that the greatest talkers in the House were the smallest workers, and he should propose in committee, that members should be paid at per folio of Hansard. If members exceede'd'tbe, maximum allowed they might be deducted at"; j6s or £10 per page for every page over>th,e!lin)it allowed thesp. This ; was his first session 'anS he was astounded at i the waste of time that occurred in the House. He hoped the bill would be rejected. Mr BARNSHAW as a workingman said he should support this bill. He had told people at several of his meetings that he should support a nfeasure of tneinnd, and had expressed the kopipion that £3tfO : $ year was not too much. In his Own case it wafra question whether he oould go back to his employment after the session as there might probably be a league of employers to ! .prevent his getting employment in consequence 'of the attitude he had taken up in the House. That being so, he could no^live on£Jso a, year, %nd he thought' £3oo wouAft.be tt'jfair remuneration for members. '/The Eremier, .however, had taken,the\?ieec A Qure(ein,proD6i3|no|B24O a year, and he hoped that would be agreed to. I Me MEREDITH thought the bill shonld be I held over so as to come into operation in the r next Parliament. He was an out-and-out supporter of payment of members, bat the present time was', inopportune .for a' measure of, that kind, tit seemed to him inconsistent that whilst ' the Government were effecting retrenchment in I other directions they, should seek to increase the payment of . members, and it was a mistake to I bring in" the oill' at presenV.' Mr BUIOK referred to the statement that be was the originator of this bill, and he gave this an emphatic denial. He had informed his constituents, however, that £150 a year was not haofßoiSisrpiiiymgfrti'fdfbiembera, and'he had promised them he should vote for an increase if i any wewpropoaed. He shonld support the bill in all its stages.' I The Hon. T. FERGUS was amused at the speeches of some Liberal members over this question and the efforts made to set class agaiost class. He claimed to be a more genuine working man than those labour members who had just told the House they specially represented the working classes. • He should like to know what sympathy the Minister for Education, for instance, had ever possessed for the working classes. Why, he had bean told tfcat men on Mr Reeves' station had absolutely at one time refused to work on that station unless Mr Beeves were removed from it. (MrRBBVES: "That is totally untrue.") Well, he had been told so by a working man ; but, of course, he accepted the hon. gentleman's denial. Ho thought that in present state of the finances of the colOHy it would be wise if the second reading of the bill were agreed to for the Government to let the bill stand over for another session, in order that they oould obtain the feeling of the country on it. As to Mr Earnsbaw's statement that because he was a member of Parliament employers of labour would refuse to give him work, he (Mr Fergus) had never heard such a monstrous statement, and he refused to believe it for a single moment. He should vote against this bill, but if they found that the present honorarium prevented any particular class of candidate from obtaining a seat in the House it would be their duty to provide the necessary expenses to enable them to do so. Mr G. HUTCHISON said he should oppose the bill at every stage, as he considered they had no right to aggrandise themselves in the manner that was proposed by the measure brought down by the Government. Mr PINKERTON thoroughly believed in the principle of payment of members. He thought that £240 was not too much for the purpose of remunerating members in attending Parliament. Mr BLAKE was diametrically opposed to the bill, but as he had annexed himself to a certain extent to the Government party, he should vote for the second reading. When the bill got into committee, however, he should refuse to vote at all, and would certainly not vote for £240 a year. Messrs Pratt, Hogg, Houston, Wm. Kelly, Joyce, Hall-Jones, and Carncross supported the second reading

Mr DUTHIB opposed it. The Hon. W. P. REEVES thought it was not fair to separate menubera from their wives and families for three or four months in the year, and those who had tried knew this was a costly experiment. Members also had to pay away considerable sums of money in subscriptions, and the expense of contesticg elections was also very great. He thought, therefore, the time had come for a reasonable return to a higher

rate of payment for members than had prevailed since 1887, bat it woald be for the committee to settle the rate of pay that should be fixed. Referring to Mr Bryoe's remarks, he thought that hon. gentleman had been listening to outside rumours, and had not spoken in a tone that did credit to his position. He wished to Bay that Ministers had no desire to raise their salaries, but were content to wait till circumstances justified their being raised to their former position. As to Mr Fergus' statement about him (Mr Reeves) coming out to the colony with gaiters and hunting crops, he might inform the House that he was born in the colony, and therefore did not come out. Referring to the hon. gentleman's statement that the men on a station refused to work unless he (Mr Reeves) left it, the story was too ridiculous and had no truth in it, as there was only one man there with whom he was not on good terms. He denied Mr Hutchison's contentions that the present bill was dishonest, or that the present Parliament was utder contraot to serve the country for £150 a year. He thought no member who voted for the bill woald be afraid to meet his constituents after doing so. . The amendment i was lost by 33 to 24. The following is the division list :— Fob Mb Bbtob's Amkmd- Agaikst thb Amkmdmbnt (84). mkht (33). Meisri Bryce Meisri Ballanoe Buchanan Buick Dutbie Cadman Fergus OamcroßS Hall Carroll Harkness Daw«on Macarthur Duncan Mackenzie, T Eamshaw M'Guire Fith Meredith .Fisher Hills, J Grey Moore Guinneii Newman Hall-Jones Buodea Hamllo Bichardson Hogg Bolleston Honiton Saunders Hutchison, W Swan Joyce Tanner Kapa Thompson, B Kelly, J Thompion, T Kelly, W Thomson, J W Mackintosh Valentine Mills. O H Wright. Parafca Perceval Plnkerton Bees Beeves, BH J Beeves, W P Seddon Sbera Smith, W O Taylor. PAIRS. ■ Messrs Lawry Messrs Smith, B M Mitchelaon Ward Maokenzie, M J S M'Kenzle, J Wilson O'Connor Hutchison, Q Macdonnld Busiell. Fraser. The second reading was carried by 33 to 22. i Mr G. HUTCHISON explained that he had jpaired with Mr Macdonald, but having inadverjtently remained in the Chamber. He had, 'according to usage, recorded his vote in the .direction in which Mr Macdonald would have yoted, ! On the. question being put that the bill he 'committed on Tuesday, j The Hon. Mr FERGUS moved that the bill foe committed that day three months. — Lost on ifche voices. ! MISCELLANEOUS. ! According to Mr Seddon, true method of providing for the' widows and orphans of those killed in the .public service is to establish an insurance' fund from which relief may be given. \ The Minister of ' Mines is to be asked by Mr R'; Thompson whether, in view of the wide dis* parity 1 between the laboratory assays and the practicarresultß from the battery on the Puhipohi ' silver field, ranging from above llOOoz to the ton by" assay 'down to 340z as the battery yield, be will take steps to obtain a report from some competent expert of wide experience either ia Australia or California as to the proper method'offcreating this ore. • Speaking' of the demands continually made upon .members, Mr T. Mackenzie said that last month the, had . spent £3 10s for postage stamps and £2 10s for telegrams. ' The House 'and Council have agreed upon the amendments made upon the DidtillatiQß BUI, the 11 chief being the extension of licensed vineyard areas from two acres to five. , Mr Swan, in the' House to-night, said : M This is 'my first session here, and •I " have been thoroughly astonished at the enormous waste of time and the loss to the' country ' that goes on in this House," The Premier: 'f Hear, hear." i Acoording to Mr Moore, if the question involved in the Payment of Members Bill, Were placed before the electors of the colony there would be an almost unanimous vote against it. The Goldfielda and Mines Committee have been considering the question of the exaction of tribute and deoided to recommend that the rate of tribute should be half the current rate of wages in the district. .' Mr Bryce is against the proposal to pay mem* bfcrs of the Legislative Council who reside in Wellington, and says it is not more irksome for them to attend Parliament than it is to attend a club.

(Continued on page 18.)