FRIDAY, JUNE 26.

Otago Witness, Issue 1949, 2 July 1891, Page 17

FRIDAY, JUNE 26.

In the House of Representatives this afternoon,

Mr D. PINKERTON resumed the debate on the Financial Statement. He said he rose to address the House with some diffidence after the old warriors that had spoken on both sides of the House. Before commencing he desired to say he agreed with the proposals brought down by the Government, as he thought they had made an honest attempt to place the' burden of taxation on the shoulders of those able to bear- it. They had for years been promised that the property tax should be repealed, but this was the first attempt made to repeal it. Reference had been made to Mr Ward during the debate as being at one time a strong supporter of the property tax. but he would convince the House that the contrary was the case, and he quoted from a speech made by Mr Ward in Hanßard to the effect that he was opposed to the property tax for a number of reasons some of which were that it would stop capital fromcoming to the colony and Btop it from remaining in the coloay. He (Mr Pinkerton) therefore contended that the Post-master-General b>id been uiifa'rly blamed in this mat.' er. Thpy had been told that instead of introducing pfnny postage the Government should bave reduced taxation on the uecessarieß of life, but as oue of the iudustrial classes he thought it better to have a proper system of taxation introduced which would provide for the £ ettletnent of the land. A great deal had been made of reducing the duty on tea and sugar, and no doubt that was very desirable, but he thought a better plan was to revise the customs tariff on some systematic plan, and they could afford to wait a year or two for a reduction on those necessaries of life. He took some exception to the proposed graduated tax, and he should prefer to see an inorease of the graduation on the unimproved value. He agreed with the principle of taxing invested capital instead cf taxing a man's energies. Mr Bi-yce had stated in his sp j aeh that nothing should be done to stop the flow of capital to tho colony, and he thoroughly agreed with that, as it was what the present Government were doing. They wished to attract capital to the soil. He was sorry to see Mr Macarthur display suoh vindiotiveness as he had shown during his speech, and he cornbatted several statements made by the member for Kangitikei. Referring to Mr Bcobie Maekeuzie'a Bpeech he said Ifc waa a very good oratorical display, but had no depth of argument. As to what that hon. gentlemaa said about) large estates, he (Mr PinkertoD) said that if those estates were broken up, sorely the more revenue would bo re ceived from them, owing to the number of families tbat would own them 4 They were treated to some alarming statements about capital leaving the country, but it seemed

to him that was similar to the cry they always heard about our credit failing in London when a Liberal Government was in power. He hoped hey would continue to hear those threats. Thftv were similar to those made in France after SSKSS-tanw". People thought that the country was going to be ruined owing to the large indemnity required by Germany, but the. peasantry, and small landed proprietors, brought In their savings and offered them to the Government, and the result was France was able to meet all her engagements. Supposing capital did leave the colony, they still had the country left, as well as the means tor providing more tiapital. He, however, had no fear of capital leaving the country. He did not agree with what had been said about the manner the Government dealt with the sinking fund, and considered the money should certainly be spent on the prosecution of public works which would keep the people in the country. What the Government wanted to do was to raise the same amount of revenue by their proposals as was now realised, only. they wished to make the taxation fall more equitably on the shoulders of all concerned. As regards the exodus of the people from the colony, of which so muoh had been made by the previous speaker, the reason of that exodus was because they could not get work in the colony ; and that was surely not to be deprecated, The hon. gentleman, however, had twitted the Government with driving people out of the country, and yet with giving work to the unemployed. If that was the case they oould not be driving people away. He contended that the present party in power were doing their utmost to deal with the evils of absenteeism, Mr Duthie had complained of polioe officers being punished because they did their duty during the late strike. He (Mr Pinkerton) could not say what took place in Wellington, but having some experience of unionism in Dunedin,he ceuld safely say that in some instances the polioe were assisted in keeping order by the strikers themselves. He admired Captain Russell for'his candid opinions about the sacredness of property. He respected property, too, but he did not believe in the property of the working men being taken from them because they were too poor to assist themselves. , In conclusion, he wished to say the proposals of the Government would receive his hearty support. Mr KELLY' (Invercargill) said he wonld not have risen but for a statement of Mr Soobie Mackenzie to the effect that the appointment of Ranger Campbell was a shameful one. He detailed the circumstances conneoted with the ease in which Campbell appeared in the Supreme Court, and said the foot of Sir B. Stout having offered Campbell a sum of money to withdraw from the case proved that his (Campbell's) character was not so bad as Mr Mackenzie had itated it to be. The whole thing was got up in order to make a serious charge against the Minister for Lands. He went on to refer to the banquet given to Mr Spence at Invercargill, which ha a^egoft had been instituted for the purpose o£ allowing' Mr Spence to make certain charges against the Minister for Lands, which, according to the propheoy of the Opposition press, were to prove the downfall of the Ministry. He made some serious allegations against Mr Spence's administration as Commissioner of Crown Lands, and said when all- these things were known, was it to be wondered at that the Minister for Lands acteTl towards Mr Spence as he had done? Referring to Mr Duthie's remarks about sub-contracting, he (Mr Kelly) asserted that the woiking men in Southland 1 had been robbed wholesale by sub-contractors. Great fault had been found with Mr Ward for having reduced postage, as being in the interests of capitalists ; but he did not think that consideration entered into the question at all, At any rate, Mr Ward had treated his own men as no capitalists had done. He .heartily supported the suggestion to Increase the graduated tax on estates over 100,000 acres. , He also supported the tax on totalisatora, ~as people who invested in that direction could afford to pay such an impost. Mr MACKINTOSH thought the Government had given unmistakable proof of their retrenchment professions since they took office. He defended Mr J. M'Kenzie's action in appointing Banger Campbell, who had been unjustly treated by the late Government. The colony from end to end, he asserted, agreed with the present Ministry simply because they were straightforward and fulfilled their promises. He denied that the proposed land tax was the property tax by another name, although at first sight it might seem so ; and he was glad to see that farmers were to get some relief under the proposed taxation. The Government had commenced well by abolishing the property tax and imposing an income tax, which was a fair and just one. He denounced large estates as being very injurious to the colony, and he hoped that 'there woujd not be a large estate left in seven years' time. As regarded the unemployed difficulty, the Government could assist the unemployed by purchasing suitable land on which the men could be put— not obscure bush land, bnt the more open portions of the country, | where they could get extra work to maintain their families in their own neighbourhood.

Mr TAYLOR said Mr Bryee had twitted the Premier with bringing down a catching and taking policy; bat at any rate it was a policy that the country approved of. He thought Mr Bryce would have had more tact than to make Bach a statement. The country demanded that the financial proposals of the Government should have a fair trial. If they proved a failure, ,then, no doubt, the leader of the Opposition would take the Premier's place ; but his opinion was that the policy would succeed with the country. It was well known that the Government possessed the Jargest majority that any Government had for the last 50 years.— (Mr Habkness: That's not true). "Not true. Well you prick a card."- He referred to the attack made on the Government by M,r Scobie Mackenzie, and said that hon. gentleman was opposing now, but in former sessions he had wriggled about, he would not say like a worm, as that might be unparliamentary. He believed conscientiously that the Government were doing their best to benefit the great bulk of the people in the colony, and strongly approved of the Government policy. -Mr W. L. RBBS skid the debate now going on was one of considerable moment to the colony, as this was the first Parliament elected on no-borrowing principles, and it was also the first time, so far as he could recollect, when a Ministry was in office with a sufficient majority at its back to carry out its policy— a majority consisting of men some of whom were prepared to go further than Ministers, and some not prepared to go so far. He referred to the efforts recently made by Sir George Grey in Australia to benefit the people, and alluded to his standing almost alone at the Federal Convention to advocate what he considered the rights of the people. The present discussion so far as it bad gone had not risen to the occasion— if he might say so— especially when so great a change was impending as an alteration in the inoidence of taxation. He believed the vast bulk of the people of tiie colony were averse to the property tax, and if an election took place to-morrow a still larger majority would be returned against that tax. The crucial difference between the two taxes was that the land tax was to be levied on land,

pure and simple ; and the income tax, not on the value of a man's property, but on the value which he receives as income, and.'out of which he would have to pay it. Mr Bryce had spoken of the income tax as immoral, but he (Mr Rees) would like to know whether any taxation was palatable. Nobody liked to be taxed, bnt while they had to meet the interest of millions of borrowed money, mainly spent by the gentlemen composing the present Opposition, they were bound to provide means of paying it.' The first duty of a statesman (and he was glad to find the Premier recognised this) was to meet the public engagements, and . he hoped the time was far distant, notwithstanding Mr Fortesoue's article in - the " Nineteenth Century," when this colony would for a single moment entertain the idea of refusing to pay her just debts. After referring at great length to the Native land question, he strongly condemned the administration of the late Government, which he said were the " continuous" Ministry. He asserted that the country was now undergoing a reaction from a long financial debauch. That party bad apted most unconstitutionally in many ways, and' their last official act had been to make a number of appointments to .the Legislative Council, including the late Premier himself, in utter defiance of constitutional practice, and in total disregard of their own promises. That party had now disappeared, but the wrecks of it remained, and he thought an epitaph should be written of its demise, which occurred on the 23rd January, owing to a mortal wound received at the ballot box on the sth December last. He defended the income tax, quoting extensively from various sources in its favour, and he denied that the tax was either oppressive or immoral, as had been argued against it. He personally wished to see all improvements exempted from taxation, but he was pledged te his constituents to bring taxation to bear on all incomes derived from New Zealand, whether in this country, or in England. The present' Financial Statement was, in his opinion, the only one for the last 20 years that was calculated to advance the financial condition of the country. The rest were merely Financial Statements. He was convinced that the only solution of the differences between labour and capital was in a partnership between labour and capital on a proper system of economics — a system in which each man shall prosper, but not prosper at the cost of his fellows— a levelling up and not a levelling down, He prophesied that if the measure he sketched and the Government programme were carried out it would result in a' period of great prosperity to the colony, and men who had left our shores would speedily return. Already the English press was with them, and had begun to "boom" New Zealand, although it had ,been prognosticated that in the event of the Liberal party attaining to power it would oast a blight on the colony. Mr T. MACKENZIE (Clutha) said they had just listened to a very long and very load speech, which he might . almost say signified nothing and was full of sound and fury. The previous speaker had not hesitated to denounce the " continuous " Ministry, nor had he refrained from casting slander on the present leader of the Opposition, a gentleman of whom Sir G. Grey had spoken with much more generosity than had characterised Mr Rees. Sir G. Grey had publicly stated in the House that in Mr Bryce's action at Parihaka his hands were unstained with blood, and no slur was oast on his name by his action. Mr Rees had stated that this was the first Parliament elected on what he might call equal h*nes,meaning,no doubt, one-man>one-vote, but he would remind the House ,that Mr Rees himself was elected from the City .of Auckland by men who had three votes. He denied that the property tax was the chief political question at the late election, as stated by Mr Rees. Why, the whole country was in a state of excitement owing to unionism, and people cared nothing for the property tax. Mr Rees had twitted the Opposition with not having quoted a single authority against the income tax, bnt what authorities had he (Mr Rees) quoted from ? Why, from Chancellors of the Exchequer, who were compelled by force of circumstances to maintain the income tax, which was justly called a war tax. He quoted from John Stuart Mill, Adam Smith, and others adverse to the income tax, the latter asserting that the tax was the greatest blot on our political economy, and the former that merchants and traders continually evaded the income tax by false returns. He (Mr Mackenzie) contended that the income tax wherever it had been practised had proved to be an abomination. Referring to the Financial Statement, the sentiment of it was good, bnt sentiment woald not carry on the affairs of the colony, and when they remembered the political history of the Premier they must take his opinion of the change in taxation with considerable caution. The Pre* mier had gome into office on a former occasion with the assertion that he would sweep away the property tax. but after three years of office, which left the colony in a greater mess finally than it had ever been in before, Mr Ballance and his colleagues actually proposed to increase the property tax to, a greater extent than had ever been dreamed of by the so-called Tory party ; and a similar thing would happen in the present case. He altogether failed to see where the Government's estimated revenue . from income tax was to come ; and as for the graduated land tax, which was estimated to | yield £0.1,000, several owners of land had inI formed him that the proposed tax would suit them ! perfectly. As for the large estates, what wonld happen £ Why, they would simply he split up, and so escape taxation. His opinion also was that the proposed taxation would not be such a kind gift to the poor farmers, who would not save a single shilling under it. The only farmers who would benefit by it would be those in affluent circumstances. The whole policy, as far as changing the incidence of taxation was concerned, was bunkum, and he should not be at all surprised to hear the Premier say even this session, as he had said before, that the circumstances of the colony would not warrant any change of taxation. In that case he would appeal to the Liberal party to support him in such a contingency. He complained of men in the country being refused work by the Government unless they proceeded to towns to swell the ranks of the unemployed; and yet the ; Government made a great point of finding | employment for men of this kind near their [ own homes. That was the reason why the unemployed difficulty was so prevalent, as men in the country had no chance of getting work on railways or other public works One of the Premier's great professions was that he was going to reach absentees, and he would not allow them to live in London without being taxed doubly. He quoted from a speech made by Mr Ballance to that effect, which he would tell the House was greeted with applause from all true Liberals. He also quoted from a list of absentees, and said one of- the largest of these gentlemen paid £204 under the old tax, but under the new he would only pay £191, and yet the Premier promised his constituents these men should pay double. He had selected the last name on the list of absentees as another example, a gentleman possessing 10,878 acres. Under the old tax he paid £87 18a, bat under the new

tax he would pay only £41. He held that persons drawing incomes from the colony should pay on those incomes, and he also held that large estates should be reduced. The polioy of the Government, in his opinion did not propose to remedy those things. Large estates were an evil to the country, but the people, who at present possessed them held them faithfully and well in accordance with the laws of the country. He would like to see, however, that the holders of these properties should not have power to will them to any one individual. Another matter he wished to refer to was that the present Government came into office pledged to do the Roman Catholics justice. The late Government, as far as he understood, had only one member in favour of granting aid to private schools— that member was the Premier, Sir H. Atkinson. The present Government, on the contrary contained _ five members who were in favour of aid to private schools— viz., Messrs Ballance, Buokley, Ward, Seddon, and M'Kenzie. The Hon. JOHN M'KENZIE : " That is a falsehood." The SPEAKER required the Minister to withdraw the word, and Mr M«Kenzie withdrew it. . ... Mr MACKENZIE (Clutha) accepted the denial, and said his authority was the Otago Daily Times. He was of opinion that a majority of the Cabinet Ministers were in favour of this measure, and if he thought'the finances of the the oolony would stand it, he should be in favour of granting aid to people who fully deserved it. He wanted this question settled, however, and he wanted the country to understand that a majority of the Ministry were in favour of it, but were afraid to give it effect. Would any one say that if a majority of Cabinet Ministers were in favour of the property tax, that that tax would be changed. Certainly not. He considered the present change in the incidence of taxation was not one calculated to bring prosperity to the country, and the poor farmer would not - derive any benefit whatever from it. A deficiency in the revenue would undoubtedly result from this taxation, and would have to be made up through the usual channel — namely, the customs duties, which wonld directly press on the working classes of the colony. The Ministry were placed on the benches to assist the working men of the country, and there was not a single item of their policy that would do it. The Hon. Mr SEDDON rose to explain that neither publicly nor privately was he pledged to support the Private Sohools Bill, and on the last occasion ho voted on the subject he voted against it. The Hon. T. FERGUS said that on the last occasion Mr Seddon did not vote for or against the question, as it was understood he was " hedging " for the Catholic vote. The Hon. Mr SEDDON again rose, and said he was not in the vicinity of the Parliamentary Buildings when the question last came on. Mr HOGG twitted Mr Scobie Mackenzie with having, at Naseby, denounced the property tat, but he understood that was characteristic of the hon. gentleman, as he had supported and opposed both political parties over and over again. He warmly supported the polioy of the Government, but thought the Government would do exceedingly well even to initiate that polioy at present, as it was necessarily a work of time to develop it. The property tax, he considered, was most pernicious, and pressed heavily on the people. As a fact the bulk of taxation hitherto had been imposed on labour, and it was the effort of the present Government to reduce that burden.

Mr HALL-JONES moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday.— Agreed to. The House rose at 1.20 a.m.