THE FEDERAL CONVENTION.

Otago Witness, Issue 1934, 19 March 1891, Page 15

THE FEDERAL CONVENTION.

(Pbb Pbess Association) Sydney, March 13. Much amusement was created at the convention yesterday on receipt of a telegram "from the people of Warrnambool, urging the claims of that town to be selected as the capital of federation. The result of the debate shows that all the delegates except Mr Munro and Mr Deakin are virtually unanimous on the question of State rights. The Herald, in commenting on the attitude of New Zealand, says : — " It is useless for that colony to dream of avoiding federation and securing free commercial intercourse with Australia. Federation and reciprocity must go together." It urges New Zealand to join, and points oat it will be a vain hope to suppose that « federal tariff will contain any "favoured nation " clauses. Sir S. Griffith, vice-president, took the chair at the convention this morning while Sir H. In doing so Sir Harry offered the delegates his unqualified congratulations on the sense of public duty whioh had characterised their speeches. They, had not assembled to name the federal oity or to describe a federal tariff, but they were there to frame a scheme of constitution for federal government. That was the only objeot to which they could give their consideration. He was gratified at the adherence given to that objeot, and wonld endeavour to deal with it in the light of the instructive debate whioh they had bad. He was sorry to hear one or two of the Western Australian delegates express a kind of reserve as to the intentions of that oolony to enter the federation, Something ought to be said as to the sacrifices made by the larger colonies, ad well as by the smaller. He would briefly state the position that New South Wales occupied towards the convention. If by any chance disaster came to pass, that she was unable to join the federation, she could as well afford to stand alone as any other colony in the group. New South Wales had a much greater degree of private wealth than any other colony. If divided among the inhabitants, it would give £363 to each person, while the wealth of the United Kingdom would only give £249, France £248. America £240. To crown all, they only had the responsibility of guarding 700 miles of coast line out of 8500 miles. Therefore, if his colony had to pursue a course of separate nationhood, it would be able to hold its own. There were sacrifices which, if not made in the case of a small population, could not be made in a large state. It must not be understood there was any zeal lacking in connection with federation ; but it must be entered on by tbe will of the people, and be inalienable. The rights of both great and small must be secured. What was a Government ? It was a contrivance to proteot the liberties of the people, enforce law and order, and repress crime. The true coarse was to oall upon the people for the payment of the taxation necessary to carry on the Government. He was opposed to the imposition of any burden upon the people except for this purpose. In these colonies we had institutions of Government as perfect as any part of the world. He would not even admit that the Government of England was more perfect, and certainly he would not admit that the American was as perfect. It might be said, why seek to make a change? They sought to create another Government because the time had arrived when however satisfactory separate Governments might be they were not adequate. That was why a larger form of Government was proposed. He woald show how these Governments coald not work oat their destiny, and that the progress and enterprise of the country demanded that they should take defence. They must know he was one of those who thought that no single unit of the human family should be employed as a soldier unless absolutely necessary. It was the worst use they could devote a man to. It was a delusion to suppose that because they were surrounded by a peaceful sea they were not open to aggression in time of war. There were plenty of wolves to find the lambs by muddied stream. They were never likely to suffer from the forms df war known to their forefathers, but it was more than likely they would be subjected to other forms of aggression. Napoleon said that the Chinese, once masters of European arts, would conquer the world. He firmly believed that that marvellous nation was awakening to all its powers for purposes of war which its immense population gave it. Aggression on their part, he thought, would not be by attaok on our seaboard, but stealthily effecting a lodgment in some thinly-peopled part. It was almost certain any warfare they might suffer from wonld take that form. He thought this question of defence was for the smaller colonies alone. Let them think bow much was at stake. | Many other colonies had greater coast lines to defend. Among some parties in the United Kingdom the opinion was held that none of the revenue of England should be used for colonial defence. The essential condition of the functions of the Government were to defend individual citizens ia the undisturbed possession of their property. The cost ought to be raised in the best possible manner, and a Federal Government which possessed tbe confidence of all should be powerful enough to do the necessary work. The Federal Government would have to construct a tariff and conduct intercommunication between the colonies. That did not necessarily mean they would take over the railways, but they must regulate them. They would have to undertake intercourse with the world, and would have power and influence in this respect which no single colony could ever hope for. They would have to take charge of manifold interests centring in the ocean which surrounded them. They would have to carry with them all the higher things of nationalism. They would have to protect the colonies one from another which was no light task. A constitution could never be framed that did not commend itself to the free people of Australia. They ought never to lose sight of this fact. He was not prepared to accept a transcript of the Ameiican Constitution. He believed they could do better by adhering to the British Constitution. The American Senate and the Senate they sought to create here were evidently two entirely different bodies. He related his experience of the American constitution during a visit to Washington in 1882, and showed that the business of the Senate was conducted in absolute secrecy. They did not want a body like that, nor were they about to create a Senate to carry out and execute measures. They sought to create a dignified Upper Chamber on the model of the British constitution, and if they found they could not do that exactly they must resort to some device to supply that Conservatism which he held the Senate must possess. Its members must be those whose probity and character bad been fully tried. The success of .any constitution must depend on the good faith and self-restraint of those who worked ib. If they expected to make a constitution wilh rp"{rictions they would make a great mistake. Referring to past speeches, he fully admitted that the smaller colonies desired special consideration, but it could not be done with due regard to tbe larger colonies. With

Sydney, March 13.

respect to giving power to both Houses to deali with bills imposing taxation, he could sot dis-'l guise the fact that if this were done it. l would lead to great trouble and mischief. 11 Such a course would not ba in accordance with the usage of constitutional government for a | hundred years past. The whole tendency had been to wrest from those with no responsibility and to give to those with it this very power. Dealing with the notion that the Ministry should represent the various colonies, he wished to show how utterly inconsistent with party Government it would work. He instanced the coarse taken by the Sovereign in forming a Ministry. The man selected must be absolutely free to choose whom he pleases ; and were he compelled to take colleagues of whom he had no knowledge, no man of high spirit would accept office. Supposing the Government were responsible to both Houses, and supposing the Senate passed a want of confidence and the House vetoed the confidence, how would that Ministry be responsible to anybody? With regard to the construction of the Senate, surely giving Western Australia the dame representation as New South Wales was avast concession. He would not object to meeting the smaller colonies by giving them larger representation in the House, but was not prepared to make an anomalous constitution merely to meet Western Australia, and if she could not see her way to join without making sacrifices she was not prepared for, she must await her chance to come into the federation. Regarding the opinion that the time was not ripe for federation, he demanded those holding that opinion to say when the time would be ripe. If they missed the present opportunity, the difficulties in the way would be much increased. They might eventually have a civil war. They must either join hands or hold them out in defiance of each other. They could only have harmony by entertaining compromises whioh were not deadly to principles. He asked them not to trust too much in the resolutions when they went into committee. They had served their purposes for debate, and he would suggest that the wisest practical course would be as soon as possible to agree on the vital provisions of a bill as to the construction of the Parliament and executive and the relations of the smaller states. If they could once agree on these provisions tbe committee could frame the necessary measure in 24 hours. He had no time to refer to the ungracious idea of republicanism that had been launched among them. There was no reason to change their form of government when there was no complaint to make. He ventured to say tbe Queen would receive a grander reception if she visited America than any man or woman in tbe world. She had disclosed a genius for government, close attention to business, and a clear foresight never attained by any other monarch. No wellregulated mind ever anticipated the far future, but if the time came when it was necessary to sever the connection with the mother country it would come in spite of the loyalty of the chief men, but never at the ravings of any individuals. He asked the delegates to do their utmost by dose attention, mutual respect, forbearance, and a desire for compromise, I and it was possible to bring about the object they had met for. Sir H. Parkes concluded amidst applause. Mr J. P. Abbott (Speaker of the Lower House of New South Wales) was appointed chairman of committee, and, on the motion of Sir H. Parkes, the convention went into committee. The committee took into consideration clause 1, providing—" That the powers, privileges, and territorial rights of the several existing colonies shall remain intact, except in respect of such surrenders as may be agreed upon as necessary and incidental to the power and authority of the Federal Government." Mr J. M. M'Crossan (Queensland) began the discussion. He thought the colonies had powers and privileges which would not agree with a federal constitution. The first thing required would be to assimilate the constitutions of the various colonies with the federal constitution. The introduction of a clause directing that no new states should be created without the consent of colonies interested would be sufficient guarantee of territorial rights. The question of providing a constitution for the various colonies gave rise to a discussion concerniog nominee Houses. Sir George Grey strongly opposed nominee chambers. There would not be true freedom while such institutions existed. He wished to sea such a constitution as would leave New Zealand a loophole to come in when she thoroughly understood the subject. Sir F. Jennings thought the Federal Parliament should not have power to dictate the alteration of the constitution of any colony. He could not see why if a colony desired a nominee house it should not have it. Mr Cookburn wished to see the abolicion of nominee houses. Sir P. C. Bray (South Australia) disagreed with the idea that Sir G. Grey's views about nominee chambers were not appropriate to the occasion, and expressed a belief that if the people and Parliament of New Zealand strongly desired to abolish the nominee House, the other colonies would support them to the utmost. Mr Kingston suggested that they should take the resolutions as a framework, and such other information as the convention may deem fit before they sent for a draughtsman. Clause 1 was earned, and it was decided that resolution 3 should be taken before No. 2. This provides — "That the power and authority to impose customs duties should be exclusively lodged with the Federal Government and Parliament subject to such disposal of the revenue hence derived as shall be agreed upon." Mr Deakin moved to amend this by the insertion of the words " and excise " after the word " customs." Progress was reported, and leave given to sib again on Monday. March 16. Mr Deakin withdrew his amendment to clause 3, proposed on Friday, in favour of the following addition by Mr Gordon (South Australia) : — That the customs duties imposed by the federal colonies on goods imported from places outside such colonies be uniform and fixed by the Federal Government; also, that such excise duties as are agreed upon shall be similarly fixed. That trade between the colonies be absolutely free. That bounties ff>r manufactures and productions be offered only by the Federal Government, those paid by the several colonies being withdrawn. That on railway Hues between two or more federated colonies a uniform tariff shall .prevail. That the expenses of the Federated Government be apportioned to the various colonies on the basis of population. In speaking to his amendment Mr Gordon traversed Mr M'Millan's figures, and condemned the system on which it wag proposed to collect the co3t of a Federal Government by handing over customs entirely to that government. - He suggested that the colonies should pay tbe amount required. If the Federal Government were to collect customs, deduct the cost oE federal administration, and hand the balance to the colonies, the system wonld prove too cosily, and in eomo cases mean laying up money which the oolonies might require. Ib would be rnucb

.better to pay the contribution adjudged by the /Federal Parliament; j Sir J. O. Bray (South Australia) deprecated 'adding anything to the resolutions suggested. < A committee should be immediately appointed to consider the different questions proposed to be dealt with in' committee. Sir S. W. Griffith coincided with Sir J. C, Bray, but thought that the resolutions should first of all be passed as a basis for the sub-com-mittee's deliberations; Mr Gordon willingly withdrew his amendment, but could not agree that matters of national policy should be left to the determination of a committee. After a loDg discussion, Mr Deakin moved the insertion after the words " Customs duties " of " excise on goods subject to Customs duties." Sir T. M'llraith said uniform excise was unfair, as in some cases it wonld oppress one country, when not another. Take for instance sugar countries like Queensland whioh would be almost entirely affected. He quite agreed that the Federal Parliament must have power in its hands, but he believed there should be a limitation so as to impose excise duties only on artioles produced in all the colonies. Mr Deakin's amendment was then put and carried. Mr Gordon moved a further amendment— " That power to offer bounties be exclusively lodged with the Federal Government and Parliament," which was carried. Mr Deakin said he had intended to move a further amendment, but contented himself by saying, with regard to the fiscal policy, that the question of the moment was whether 12^ pet cent, duty was to be imposed in Tasmania, 15 in Queensland, 20 or 25 in South Australia, and a still higher tariff for Victoria. Thelatter's tariff had been gradually built up, and only during the past two years had they enjoyed a high rate. Farther industries were springing up yearly, and he hoped the Fiscal Committee would pay attention to these points. Colonies with high tariffs stood in a peculiar position, and they required to have great consideration. The arguments applied with equal force to all the colonies. It would be necessary, before a satisfactory solution was arrived at, that the smaller colonies should not be required to incur a loss for some years to come. He hoped that the infant industries of Australia woald be pro* tecbed. The resolution as amended was agreed to. Resolution No. 2 (with reference to trade intercourse) and No. 4 (with reference to defence) were carried without amendment. The second half of the resolutions with reference to framing a federal constitution was then oonsidered. Resolution No. 1, dealing with the constitution of the Houses of Parliament. Mr Cockburn moved that the words "one third " be struck out, and the word " periodical " inserted, making the resolution provide for the periodical retirement of members, &c. — Carried. A long discussion ensued on an amendment by Mr Downer to omit the words " and amending " in the sentence " and to possess the sole ipower of originating and amending all bills appropriating revenue or imposing taxation." The proposed omission raised the question of the powers of the Senate over money bills. Mr Cookbnrn said there woald be no federation at all if the amendment was not carried. , Sir H. Farkes interjected the remark that if the amendment were carried it woald only mean federation between South and West Australia. Mr Forrest having expressed approval of the amendment, Mr Wrixon moved — "That the Senate have equal power with the House of Representatives in respect to all bills except money bills, bills dealing with duties of customs and 'excise, annual appropriation bills, and these it shall be i entitled to reject, but not to amend. 2. That the act. of union shall. provide that it shall not be lawful to include in the Annual Appropriation Bill any matter or thing other than votes of supply for the, ordinary service of the year." Mr M'Millan did not think the smaller states were likely to interfere with appropriation bills, for the ordinary expenditure of the year, but there ought to be some mode of dealing with bills outside of ordinary appropriation bills which might be rejected by either House. Mr Munro hoped that the mandate given by that Parliament would not permit smaller states to ride roughshod over their neighbours. The proposal . was that Viotoria and New South Wales should have two votes against four in the Senate. He wanted to know whether 900,000 people were to be allowed ;to rale two millions. The proposal was monstrous. Western Australia and Tasmania would have double the voting power of New South Wales. He did not care what the power of the Lower Honse was if the Upper House had the right of veto. He thought nothing was more out of the question than the proposal to give the smaller colonies power of imposing taxation. They must limit the power. What was wanted was a federation which would carry on as well as the respective colonies were doing at present. If they were going to form a constitution which wonld be unjust, they might as well stop now, and go no further. He would give the small colonies every protection, but would not go in the opposite direction. Mr Munro's speech was vigorously and fervently delivered. Sir T. M'llwraith remarked that if every one of the delegates were to follow the example set by Mr Munro, the prospect of federation being accomplished would be very dismal. He believed equal power should be given to the Sonate, as both chambers in reality represented the people. He thought the greatest difficulty would be experienced in getting people to agree as to the terms of constitution. Personally he was certain his constituents would not easily agree with the scheme proposed. They ought to try and frame something to suit the ideas of the various people. Captain Russell said that Mr Munro had shown more warmth than light. He thought that if that gentleman had gone into | tbe matter carefully he would have found that the sacrifice would be nothing at all. It was by adopting a spirit of compromise and not by showing warmth because we could not get all we wanted that federation would be accomplished. Mr Downer regretted that any member should say that unless his particular views were given effect to federation would not take place. He ventured to say that even Mr Munro's opinion was not that of the whole people of Victoria. March 17. The most serious note of discord yet struok at ' the convention was sounded yesterday by the i Premier of Victoria, and the discussion waxed dangerously hot. Lieutenant-colonel Smith upheld his colleague, while Sir T. M'llwraith led the opponents. Captain Russell endeavoured to pacify the delegates, regrettiDg that the conference bad not adjourned at the usual hour, and given members a chance of cooling down. Daring the early part of the afternoon the business proceeded quietly, and it was only as the closing hour approached that the air became sultry. The Hon. B. Barton (New South Wales) resumed the discussion on Mr Downer's amendment giving powers to the Senate to reject — either in whole or part — appropriation and taxation bills, and on Mr Wrixon's farther

amendifiest. It was not proposed to hare a Senate such as the American Senate, Ifc was not to be framed on the lines of -the American Senate, which had powers very much larger than was proposed to ba given here. There was nothing un-English about tbe proposed constitution when they sought to confer the fullest measure o( representation instead of seeking to curtail it. If too much power were given to the Senate it would tend to exalt the State idea over the national idea, and vice versa. Sir G. Grey said they were told that they would only be required to provide for a Federal Parliament, and that their powers would end at that, while in point of foot the various colonies were left under their present constitutions, it meant nothing more nor less than that they were forbidden to give Australasia a constitution aui ted to the states. If they bad no power to do this, they had been deprived, of the most essential power. Apparently they bad -not sufficient confidence in one another, or the greatness of duty to which they had been called would undoubtedly prompt them to give support to tbose who gave full powers to the Senate, which he believed would be composed of men of sufficient nobility of character to make their powers for public good. Mr Flayford thought it was quite a mistake to suppose Mr Downer intended responsible government should be tbe system when he proposed his amendment. What he believed he meant to imply was that jbhe Swiss system should be followed. He (Mr Flayford; contended it was impossible to make > ..the Ministry responsible to the House if they had two 'equal Chambers. It would not work with responsible Government. He did not think taking the power from the Senate over money bills was taking a very great power from the Senate. When they went to the bottom of the whold thing they would still find that the Senate . dictated to the Lower House, as all bills mast go before the Upper Chamber. He was in favour of granting the Senate the right of making suggestions in reference to bills. A very serious point to be considered' was the method of the election of tbe Senate. He favoured senators being elected by the Legislature and net by the people. There would be a difficulty perhaps where they had nominee Chambers, but the colonies had power to alter - their own constitutions in this direction. If elected by the people they might well work with one House, because one Chamber would simply be a reflex of the other. If elected by State Legislatures they might well give less power, bat if elected by the people 'they must give fujler power* ' If they gave tbe Senate the right to reject any money bills, surely with the majority they would have in the Senate, the smallercolonies would be sufficiently protected. If the convention were prepared to go the whole length, there was much to commend in the Swiss constitution, but he thought the country - was not prepared for that system. He would prefer to ccc the constitution framed on lines which were well known to them. Sir S. Griffith (Queensland) feared they were working at cross purposes. They h . been going on the assumption that a deadlook would ocour. He pointed oat that deadlocks . only occurred in Australia where .the Upper House assumed powers it did not possess. They never occurred where the Chamber bad power. , He himself was inclined to think the power of absolute rejeotion was more dangerous than the power of amendment. Mr Maorossan (Queensland) felt that there was no fear of New South Wales and Viotoria combining to injure the smaller states. The , Government should not be selected so. that .each, . oolony would be represented, but free selection , should be allowed. He hoped the proposal, (hat . senators be elected from the body of the people be , abandoned! ' The responsibility of the • Ministry to both Houses was impossible. He thought it would be a mistake to give the small , states a larger number of representatives in the Honse than they were entitled to on a basis of population. . Mr Forrest (Western Australia) said Some- . thing must be done, in the direction of iaoreased , representation to iaduce the small colonies to join the federation. He failed to see a single., case in which Western Australia would be benefited by federation. He thought it would, be a misfortune if the convention failed to frame a. bill whether the colonies; accepted it or not, "' .' , Sir Henry Farkes remarked that his .colony ' was willing to enter the federation, but person- . ally he would not agree to New South Wales joining a federation th&t" was' not truly national or based ou the British constitution. , . The Hon. J. Gordon (South Australia) condemned the remarks which had fallen from Sir , H. Farkes with reference to provincialism, and , he ventured to say that a speech' such as had just been made by that gentleman would not tend to draw the colonies into union. He still thought a loose federation would be better in the interests of the various colonies. ' Sir George Grey said if they would Jeave minor details alone, and take any of the federal constitutions whioh were in existence and trace oat how far they were applicable to the requirements of this country, they wonld be able to build up one of their own. They could do this in a week; Mr M'Millan thought the discussion had gone as far as was possible, and suggested that Messrs '' Downer and Wrixon should withdraw- their amendments, leaving the committee to deal with the matter. The Hon. B. C. Baker (South Australia) believed the people of thd colonies would be much better satisfied with an executive whioh was not controlled by party considerations than with a Ministry holding office under the present form. The Hon. A. J. Thynne (Queensland) suggested . that if either House pasoed the same measure' in two successive sessions which the other House refused to accept, the matter should be referred direct to a vote of the people, and if a majority of the people and states favoured the measure it should become law. Mr Downer thought it would save time if two committees were immediately foimed to consider the resolutions and give effect to the views already expressed by the delegates. They ought to endeavour to conserve the Senate as much as possible. The Senate, he pointed oat, woald be the protection of the liberties of individual colonies. He expressed his approval of the suggestion to have the Senate elected by the various legislatures. Sir Henry Farkes regarded the views' expressed by some of the delegates' as simply monstrous, and he maintained that neither Mr Cockburn (South Australia) nor Mr Forrest (West Australia) had risen to the height of federation. They could only see their own colonies, and could only look for a loose federation. If this latter wero accomplished, he would certainly retire. His object was to have a form of union for Australia. A loose federation he considered a retrograde step, anil a disastrous one. New South Wales had taken a generous course in regard to federation, and made no stipulation. They had placed federation before everything else, and were quite content to leave the fortunes of Australia with regard to the fiscal system in the hands of the Federal Parliament. It wag a' very difficult matter to deal with gentlemen who would only ccc a aueßtion from the part of

the. colony they represented. Unless tbeysought as Australians-witfcout reference to New South Wales, Victoria, or any other mdi-; vidaal colony—to create one Government for Australia, no conclusion would fe« arrived at. Bat despite their efforts to ptevent federation being brought about, it could not be kept in the back ground; it mnofc come sooner or later. English (statesmen had said that the question os imposing taxation should nab with the House of Commooe, and he considered the people of Aubtralia would make a great mistake if they did nob preserve that form of government in full, it being the best obtainable. The sngge fcion that the Senate w»3 to represent, not the people of Australia, hut the large and small states alike, and that it was to have power to deal with money bills was the rook on which many of the delegates had struck. He sincerely hoped some better understanding would be arrived at. After some conversation, Messrs Downer and Wrixon agreed to withdraw their amendments. Mr Downer's first amendment to omit the words "and amending in the sentence " and to possess the sole right of originating afc£ amending all bills appropriating revenue or imposing taxation " was put and carried. Resolution No. 1 of the second half of the resolutions was passed as amended, and the convention adjourned till to-morrow.