SIR ROBERT STOUT'S ADDRESS.

Otago Witness, Issue 1858, 1 July 1887, Page 17

SIR ROBERT STOUT'S ADDRESS.

Sir Robert Stout addressed his constituents fit old Knox Chnrch on Monday night. The room was so crowded that large numbers were unable to {gain admission. There were over 700 persons present. Mr J. E. White, mayor of North-East- Valley, occupied fchetshair. The Chaibman brieSy introduced Sir Robert Stout. Sir Robert Stout spoke as follows :—-Mr Chairman and gentleman, I will have to ask you to-night to remember that, considering the vast amount of questions that must necessarily arise at a general election, and that the time is limited, that *U I can hope to do to-night is to deal with only some subjects on which I should like to address you. I will have to leave to future J meetings many of the topics that are worthy of our consideration, and I ask you to remember this in case any of you may go away with the impression " He only touched on so and fio> but what about the other subjeots? rt I cannot, eVen if I had the strength, /speak on aU the subjects that might be considered during this election contest. Now, gentlemen, I prefer to-night to take up the planks of my platform, and I wish to speak first of ,

RETRENCHMENT. (Applause.) I believe the circumstances of the colony demand retrenchment, and I shall prove to you before I have done that we are the firstGovernment that has ever attempted to carry it ■out. — (Applause.) Retrenchment must be viewed in three ways. You may, first, reduce the cost of the services the General Government is called on to perform ; or you may reduce the number of other services ; or, thirdly, you may give less aid to local bodies to carry out their functions. And I need not tell you that these are the only three ways in which you could effect any retrenchment in the expenditure of the General Government. We must remember that the tendency of every country —as its population increases and its civilisation goes forward— is to increase the Government expenditure. On this subject Mr Joseph Oowan, late member of Parliament for Newcastle and one of the ablest Radicals that I believe ever sat in the House of Commons, has pointed this out very effectively. He says this in one of his speeches where he was dealing with the finances of the Government : — "This statement may be accepted without qualification, thafaio system of expenditure has ever yet been devised by which -a country increasing in population and wealth could prevent its expenditure augmenting. It is the same with a nation as with an individual." And in another part he put it thus— that the expenditure^ in England for sanitary works, drainage, water supply, and kindred enterprises, to be paid by local rates, necessitated also, in England, supervision in part of the General Government, though it does not do that here. Then he goes on to point but what might be termed the General Government expenditure incurred for schools and reformatories and for various other purposes, and he winds up by saying: "You may think that this expenditure is wasted ; yet it is a valuable national investment, and it will yield, and indeed is already yielding, a large interest in increased intelligence, in improved' health, in superior stamina, better taste, and better morals of the people. We will gather an abundant dividend from this outlay. We may not live to see the effects of this legislation, but it will bloom and blossom and make the earth glad when we are forgotten." Then he goes on to say — he was speaking in reference to the Tory Government: "My complaint against the Government is not this increased expenditure of the country; that is inevitable from the increasing claims of our complicated civilisation." Now, our population has increased and is now increasing. Its increase in no year of the past— l might say for 10 years—has been less than 15,000. Notwithstanding our depression, our population has increased in some years even to a greater extent than that, and our social requirements are every day increasing. I do not need to remind, not the oldest settlers, but what I may term the older settlers, what the state of things is now in the city of Dunedin as compared with its condition when they came here. When they came here there wasjno water supply ; no paved streets. There werefewschools. There was no telegraph cable, and the telegraph wires were {only being started. A thousand-and-one things the Government are now called on to do for the people, which the people require, but which in those days'had to be done without. Now, if we wish, we cannot go back to what I might term these primitive days. The question really comes to be this: How cheap can we obtain all things that our complicated civilisation requires ? That is the problem we must strive to solve. — (Hear, hear.} Now, when I stood before my constituents in 1884 I said 'I believed the expenses of the Government could be reduced, and I mentioned a sum. I said from £60,000 to £80,000.— (A Voice : " £80,000.") The question is : Has this pledge been kept? I shall show before I am done that this question has been more than fulfilled.— -(" Question," and applause.) Let me say what was the state of things when we took office. This was the state of things: A question was raised in the House in 1883 as to whether it was possible that the expenses of the Government could be reduced. We had a motion then made in the House that the expenses of the Government should be reduced by £50,000; and what was said ? It was said by the Treasurer and it was said by the Government that was then in existence that there could be no reduction whatever in expenditure. In 1884, when the House met, what was the consequence ? There was a large of £150,000 staring it in the face. Well we took office and*required, as any Government would require, some time to get acquainted with the position of the Government, with the requirements of the Government, and with the position of the civil service and all that that necessarily implies. We found that from 1879 down to 1884 there had been various attempts to bring about a reduction in the General Government expenditure. There had been commission after commission. Two of them, if not three, had been sent about to different parts of the colony at great expense. The result in the end was that no retrenchment was effected, and that it appeared that nothing could possibly be done. Nothing had been done, and we found, after considering the matter, that little could be done unless they could proceed on some systematic plan, and that any retrenchment, to be fair or effective, could not be carried out unless it was systematic and proceeded; on some definite lines. We attempted to do that in various ways, and attempted it to some extent by the passing of the Civil Service Act, the provisions of which I explained to the electors some time ago. One of the many provisions in the act was this: that no one was to come into the service, with the exception of experts — of course we should require them from time to time — except he came in as a cadet, and that the evil

which had been rampant in years ■ past, b£ men being taken into the public service simply through patronage and otherwise, was to be got rid of. It was also provided that those I who got into the service were not to be homi1 nated by the Minister of the day) but they were to get ia by competition, — (Applause.) I myself was in favour of nomination by member's of the House, but the Council decided in favour of competition, and that became' law. Then another line which had been laid down dealing with civil servants was this : Not only were they to be entitled to no pensions, for pensions had been abolished some years before, but we provided that they were not to be entitled to a retiring allowance, and were to be deemed three-monthly servants, entitled only to three months' notice. — (Applause.) We also provided that when promotion takes place it was not necessarily to mean that the person promoted to a higher position was to get the salary which had been received by the officer before him. To give ; you an illustration Of how this works, I will take what has happened within the last two or three months. We had a secretary of customs^-a most valuable officer — retiring from the service, i He had been in receipt of £1000 a year ; and instead of appointing a gentleman to his post at once we simply promoted one of them, who only got a salary of, I think, £500 or £550 a year, j By adopting this plan we provide that the civil service can be carried on, we believe, effectively and at a much cheaper rate. 'We also have provided a system of classification ; which provides that instead of their always demanding every year, as some servants do, an increase of pay, that they would be put into a special class, I and until they were taken out of that class j there should be no increase of ' their salaries. In that way we believed we could get some reduction in the expense of our Government service. Now, I am going to give .you a'j contrast, because it was on that I spoke when I spoke of from £60,000 to £80,000. I spoke of j what had been in 1883-4, and I am going to con- I trast the state of things in 1883-4 with 1887-8. I will give you the figures, and you then will be able to see whether the pledge I gave you has been kept, that the Government expenses would be reduced. — (Hear, hear.) Now, gentlemen, let me, however, tell you tbis : that you must never forget that our population has largely increased in the meantime — by something like 50,000, — and that an increase of population necessarily means, and must mean, as every thinking man will at once see, an increase of Government expenditure. But with all that we have the results that I will tell you of and we have been able to do what I promised, 'and something over. Now I' will tell you what the savings have been. I j am taking the estimates of 1883-4, and the estimates that were laid before the House for 1887-88, and I am classifying the services so that it shall not be said, " Oh, it is charged in some other part of the estimates." We show a saving in i the Colonial Secretary's department of £21,789; in the Treasurer's department and in that of land revenue, £81,406 ; in the Justice department, £10,602 ; in the Native department, £5290; in public buildings, £2600; and in defence 1 , £20,245. There is also a small saving in the Legislative department — and I will explain further on what that means —of £343. Altogether we show, notwithstanding the increase of population by 50,000, a saving of a no less sum than £92,266 on this year's estimates.— (Applause.) Now I will come to where there have been increases in the estimates. There have been increases in some departments. There has been an increase^ in the Postal department of £26,846; there has been a slight increase in the Stamps, which includes the Deeds department, of £1500; there has been an increase in the Education vote of £69,000 ; and a small increase in he Mines of over £2000. As to the railways I will speak specially further on, and I shall show you that, considering the additional miles we have opened and what we are carrying, we have saved, taking the mileage rate, no less a sum than £100,000 per annum since we took office. Now let me deal with the Postal department. It has been said that we have an increase of £26,846 in the Postal de- j partment, but you must remember though there is this increase in the expenditure there has been a correspondingly large increase in the revenue ; in fact, the increase in the revenue is £39,874, or £13,000 more than the increase in the expenditure. And to give you some illustration of the growth of the trade in this colony, and to give you some indication also of the growth of the wealth in this colony, and of the enormous increase in the traffic of this colony since 18831884, I will give you some statistics with reference to the Post and Telegraph department which will be sufficient to explain to you the increase of £26,000, even if there had been no increase in the revenue. The number of money order offices open in 1883-84 was 222. Well, in 1886-87 there were 277, or an increase of 55. I will simply have to give you the increases — it will take too long to read what the figures were in the two years ; and I may here inform you that I am quoting the returns compiled by the Secretary of PostOffices.Mr Gray. Therehave been 55 new savings banks opened, 110 new telegraph and telephone offices, and 161 new post offices. The money orders issued have increased during the three years by no less a number than 66,513; the increase of the amounts hafe been £41,603. The increase in the number of money orders paid has been 57,626; the increase in the amounts paid has been £62,981. The number of savings bank deposits, notwithstanding all the depression, have increased by — what do you think ?— 10,380. The amount of increased deposits has been £69,931. The number of withdrawk were 10,777- The amounts withdrawn have been £40,568; savings banks new accounts opened, 12,935; and the amount to the credit' of the depositors, notwithstanding our times of depression, have in the three years increased by no less a sum than £206,228— (applause)— while the increase of interest added to depositors' accounts has been £9778. Look again at the enormous increase in the work done by the Post and Telegraph department -. There have been of telegrams sent an increase of 236,866, and an increase in the value of telegrams of £18,541 of revenue received ; press telegrams have increased by 9030 ; the delayed telegrams have increased by 247,836 ; the number of miles of telegraphic lines opened have been 472, and wire 941 ; the telephone exchanges have doubled, and the subscribers have more than doubled, there being 1250 new subscribers.. Now, I ask you to look at the letters that have now to be dealt with. There has been an increase of letters during the three years of 4,496,185, of postal cards 319,488, of book packets 948,775, of newspapers 1,293,504, and of registered letters 17,781. The miles travelled in the mail service have increased by 683,986, and the funds invested in securities belonging to depositors have increased by £171,784. Now, gentlemen, you cannot expect that aU this additional work can be done without additional expense, and as I have shown you that the increase of the revenue has been actually £39,000, I think 1 have explained the necessary increase in the Post Office department being only £26,000.| And though all this increase has been going on, though we have had to deal with

\ nearly,' 5,000,000 additional letters; and thorfgtt we have had to' deal with all these' sifofej I though we have 161 new post 'offices 1 } the nunrtfer of dur. officers has only increased by 10$. The increase has been not in officers! but it has been' in this : that we have had id subsidise the direct Steam service and the Island service. The most | of the increase has gone in subsidies to the mail vessels. — (Applause.) . An individual here got up and interjeoted & remark. ' ' • ' > ! Sir Robert Stout: If Mr Wilson can bottle 'up his inquisitiveness until I am finished I shall be glad to answer any questions. — (Hear, hear,' and applause.) Gentlemen, there is only one remark more that I wish to. make on this comparative return of the work of the post office, and it is this : Notwithstanding all the additional increase of work, we have been able to do Without the quantity of official cor* respondent which was dealt with in previous years. The amount of the official correspondence has only increased during the three years by 10 letters.— (Applause.) And now, gentlemen, I come to a question . which has excited, great attention, and seems to excite considerable, attention in this place, and that is the question of , „ „ OUB EXPENDITURE ON EDUCATION. (Applause.) You have no conception of what , is really ruling the politics of New Zealand. I can appeal to members of the House, and 1 tell you this : that you know just as much about what takes place in the lobbies of the House as if you w.era living in Fiji.— -(Laughter and , hooting.) There has been a cry raised ; against our education system, and in the lobbies -—

The speaker was here interrupted by loud hooting in the entrance lobby of the building.

Sir Robert Stout: I do hope those men at the door will be quiet, I hope you -will try and get the door shut to prevent the crushing .and crowding* We have heard a great deal about education, and I tell you this : that so far as the Education Act is concerned I shall be no party to amending it in the slightest degree—(applause) — and I care not whether you or any other constituency shall refuse to return me to Parliament, I shall be no party to it. I shall sooner go out of all political life than I shall be a party to touch the education system in one single particular. — (Applause.) • Gentlemen, what do we hear a cry of to-day? We hear a cry in the lobbies of the House. Members after members who are afraid to give utterance to their opinions in the House have come to me and 'said " Oh, you must knock £100^000 off your education." I say you cannot knock £100,000 off your education. I ask you to look at the thing in this way — and you have just the two wayß in which you can look at it. I say this: You have first to consider are' there any schools in' your country districts that you can do without. I know the country districts of this colony very well 1 The disturbance at the door again caused an interruption, which brought the chairman and the Rev. Dr Stuart to their feet to expostulate. Sir Robert, continuing, said that the thing must be looked at in two ways. First it had to be considered whether it was possible to do away with any schools in the country districts ; and second, whether there were too many schools in the towns. He considered that in neither country nor town were there too many schools ; on the contrary, there were hundreds of children in this city who ought to be at school and who were not, and that fact showed one defect in the system in regard to the working of the compulsory clauses of the act. The next thing to be considered was whether the teachers were overpaid.

Great disturbance here occurred at the back of the hall, a number of people insisting on fore* ing their way in. - After vain attempts by the chairman to reßtore order, Sir Robert Stout took his seat, and it was some minutes before it -was possible for 'him to proceed. Sir Robert,' on resuming, said the next question was, Could they reduce the education vote be lessening the salaries of teachers ? There were altogether in this colony at present 2894 teachers, and when he stated what the salaries were the audience would not say they were too well paid.— (Cries of "Oh " and « Order.") Of this number more than a-half, viz,, 1647, got less than 5s 6d per day. There were 968 who had less than £200 a year (between £100 and £200), 215 who got between £200 and £300 a year, 48 between £300 and £400 a year, and only 16 who got between £400 and £483. The average salary paid to teachers 'in. New Zealand was lower by £20 than the average in New South "Wales, and lower by about £30 than the average in Victoria. These were the salaries, and he told them that the whole safety of the primary education system, which meant the safety of the people, depended upon having skilled and trained teachers. — (Applause.) If we had not these it would be better to abolish the system to-morrow. Moreover, with 1 small salaries' there were, especially in the employ of the smaller boards of the colony, a great number of teachers without certificates and unable to pass the simple examination demanded for the E certificate, which was the lowest granted. In one educational district at present— and it was not a large one — there were 95 teachers without certificates. And this was one blot upon our system : that, notwithstanding the time it had been in operation, we had not yet obtained throughout the length and breadth of the colony skilled and trained men able to train our youth. If we were to destroy 'our system we should effectually doit by sapping and undermining it by sending men not properly trained to teach in our schools. The kind of suggestion heard in the lobbies was that children under 7 years of age should not be paid for. — (A Voice : " Quite right.") He said it was quite wrong. At present the compulsory age was from 7 to 13, and it was quite optional for parents to send children under 7to "school. But if we did not pay for them under 7 — and in England they pay for them aa low as 3 — the result would be that some schools in country districts would have to be shut up, and the boards ' would be so reduced in funds as to be unable to carry on the system. The next suggestion was to give no education over the Fourth Standard. — (A* Voice t " Hear, hear.") Ha was ashamed to hear one man in the audience say " Hear." He undertook to .say that if that man had children, and if he had education, he would not confine his children to the Fourth Standard. He (Sir R. Stout) would tell them what it would mean. Would it mean confining the children of the rich to the Fourth Standard ? No fear. Catch them sending -their children out to fight the battle of life with only the Fourth Standard. It • would be the democracy that would be injured. And if they said that • the children of the poor and the working men were to be confined to the Fourth Standard it would, he asserted, create class distinction in this colony, and could not but be most injurious in the future. — (Applause.) There were* many present perhaps who did not require help from the State; but do not let them take suoh a narrow view as that. - He asked ' parents, would they like to see their boys sent out only educated to the Fourth Standard' to do battle in the world with the sons of those whos.9

wealtti enabled' thenV fo'< afford' the* #2t& «w£j Sixth Standards? He said fie and shame updn such.—( Applause.). If they chose to'reStrictthe education system to' the/Fourth Standard they would be destroying the. system and inflicting a 'grievous hi/dry upon ' their children that nowealth 1 and no time catM eyer redeem. .He did not believe the fight in the f uttire was going to be with cannon and muskets; it was gohrff to be an industrial war, and that nation was to be the nation of the future which had got its sons ana daughters thordughly equipped for this war. — (Renewed applause.) « Why was Germany press < ing upon Britain in manuiafcfcftres ? Why was America at enormous expenW establishing kindergarten schools — schools of dttf manufacture, land technical education? In a report.'' received from ! the Education .Bureau of' Washington, the Americans sr.i 1 that the Philadelphia Exhibition had opened their ejfesj and they saw that if their manufactures were to succeed they must hate educated manufacturers, and the only hope of this- was to establish art and technical schools ami bring their population to the highest possible state of perfection, ■ ' And they spared no expense to do' it. Sneers' were heard at our half -million expenditure ipon education, but the city of Boston alone had spent in one year £250,000 more than this colony. Those who had a stake in the colony and an interest in the future of its children would reject at all hazards this cry to destroy and degrade our educational system by confining it to any standard at all. His hope had been — and he had said so year after year — that by pro* perly utilising our reserves, and as 1 the wealth of the colony increased, we should have not only j our primary ochools free, but every high school and university free also.— (Applause.) And our system would not be complete until we had, in addition to primary schools, high schools, and universities, technical schools established to fit our youthful manufacturers for the straggle of j life, and till all these were free and no child was asked what money his father had or required to pay any fees at all, but could enter as his right the university lecture room like the son of the wealthiest man.— (Applause.) Bo strongly did he feel on this subject that he repeated, sooner than listen to dictation upon it from them or any other constituency, he would retire from public life for ever. He should stand by the education system and decline to have it undermined, as long as he could raise his voice, by the rich men of the community — and it was they who sought to destroy it. What had the poor men got by the Public Works policy ? Had it been they who had benefited ? Had it not rather been those who possessed broad acres and properties which had been improved? What did the poor man get in return for the increased taxation but education ? And it was this education vote, forsooth, that was to be reduced ! This was not a question of political party, and he cared not what party succeeded in this election, but he asked them to be true to themselves and show by their votes, insofar as this education question was concerned, that they would stand to it to a man and not allow it to be touched. — (Applause.) He would now touch upon another cry that had been industriously circulated — that of

LEGISLATIVE EXPENDITURE. Now, what about it ? Did he hot say— and he believed it— that the legislative expenditure could be reduced? Long before the cry during the session was raised he had written letters' to the Speaker of the Legislative Council and the Speaker of the House of Representatives. He told them that when the Government were trying to retrench* they should also try to economise in the Legistive department. The Government, however, had no control over that department. They proposed, however, to refer the question to a select committee to consider, as the House was the guardian of its own expenditure. Then there had been the cry of the

.SEDUCTION OF THE NUMBER OF MEMBKRS. (Hear, hear, and applause.) Well, he was going to deal with that too. The most amusing thing about it was that the very people who were now crying out. to reduce the number were those who in 1881 voted for the increase. What he proposed was to reduce the number to about what it was in 1881, and he was willing that that reduction should be made, but he found that it was impossible to carry that suggestion. Also , he saw that the House was against any reduction at all, and to show them how the thing worked he would tell them a little story. It was about one of the members, who told him that he was opposed to the reduction, but as his constituents favoured it he would wait till he saw how the division was going, and if he saw that there was no chance of the proposal being carried, then he would vote in favour of it. He would just wait till he saw how it was going.—- (Laughter.) He (Sir R. Stout) had said he was willing to reduce the number to 86, and he would even have accepted 84; but below that he would not go, and he would tell them why. They had to coneider area, and if they considered area they would see that 91 members was just about the same number as Victoria had. New South Wales had 121 and Victoria 86, but the area of the latter was smaller than New Zealand and the population was considerably larger. They must remember also that they had to consider democracy, and if they reduced the number of their representatives it would be only the rich men who could afford to contest the elections, — (Cries of « Oh !") Let them think wflat would happen under this new division of electorates. Taking the population that was required, there would be an electorate extending from Kakanui down to Blueshin. That was an enormous area — (" No.") And if they took for example the districts in the North Island, they would have some of them upwards of 100 miles in length. The Hokitika district now -was upwards of 100 miles long. Thus, if the district were made too large, the result would be that no poor man could possibly hope to contest then; on account of the expense he would be put to j while in such a large constituency no man who : was unknown' to public life could hope to compete. It might be said that they might da with i 50, with 30, or with 20 men. Yes ; they might ! do with one man. — (Laughter.) There was a country in Europe' where they did with one man and had no parliaments at all." He meant Russia.~--(Applauge.) What was the object of a democracy? Why was Parliamentary representation necessary? Was it not that the people ' should rule? The people of the outlying ' districts should be represented, and that could not possibly be if they reduced the number of members in the way that was proposed; He was glad to think that this question had not come before Parliament in any party spirit, • Two of his own colleagues — Messrs Xiarnach and Tole — had voted for the reduction, and,' on the other hand, some members of the Opposition, such as Mr Pyke and Colonel Trimble, gave their votes against a reduction. Another reason why he thought they should not reduce the number of members was this : They had 91 members when they had only 490,000 people, and pow when they bad a population of

'50^000—100,000 more—how efcuM they^expect* to decrease the number of member*? If they >\tStii(& a redaction," let them take southing off the hoHoUariani. He was opposed to any" increase, id the' ntirdbW of members, and also to any dedreasei But? any person who now'want&d torfiske a c*y at this election might save himself $» trouble * for" he did not cafe who was returned,there would be bo reduction.— ("Oh, oh!') Even if there wad to be a reduction there would have to be a new election, and that would .mean a greater. expense to tile Government than if the additional number of members were kept on and paid for three years without any reduction. Insofar as this cry about reducing the number of members was concerned, he might tell them that it had come mainly Irom those whom Re might' term the few who wished to rule this colony, and who had not a single democratic instinct m" their breasts.— (Loud applause.) He now came to another question, and that was

THE DEFEtfGB EXfI&TDITffBE.

He was, certainly amused at son**; wmarkg that had" been asmde about it. Judging from what they heard, they had perhaps come to- She conclusion that the Government had largely Increased the defence vote since they had taken ofhstf. He would tell them what hadbeendone. When ne took office,on the 3rd of September 1884, theve Were lfr officers and; 447 rank and file in what was called the permanent militia, making al-, together 463' men,- and the cost was £60,296 5s Id. Now at this day there were only 15 officers and 331 men, making a total of 346, so that they had 117 less than when they took office , Mid the cos* had been reduced by a asm of £13,000. But ev'fift these 346 men were not occupied as theprevieriff 463 had been,, for fifeey.bad been stationed at odiptosts looking after the Maoris ; but that had been" dene away witb by the adoption of the one-policeman policy, ."md the men were now employed itl finishing the" f ori bs, aad they might say that at least £15,000 o-t this expenditure might be credited to the defence expenditure, in connection with the completion of the forts. Someone had asked why ther should go ont building the forts? He would remind them how the Government had be«B beset by the people of Dunedin during the Russian war scare,- when even a deputation from the Chamber of Oommeree waited upon them on the subject, and it was urged that the Government were" ignoring the safety of the city. It would be remembered too that during the scare the Government oad done all that was possible to restrict the expenditure, until they were severely blamed for it. Tile defence expenditure had been out of loan, and not, as some person had put it, out of revenue ; and it was an expenditure that should soon draw to a clo»e— ra Ifact, it would be finished next year, and then perhaps this permanent force could be stall further reduced. So far afrdefence expenditure was concerned the Government' had saved enormously instead of increasing it. Again it was said that a large sum of money was spent upon the police .force. When the present Government took office the colony had one policeman to every 1263 of the population, and the cost to the colony per head was 3s 3d. Now there was one policeman to every 1265 of the population, and the cost to the colony was.3s 2^d per head of the population; and that, they would Bee,meanfe a considerable saving when they considered that there were now in the colony, including Maoris, 635,215 people. This expenditure was less than was incurred for a similar purpose in any of the Australian colonies, and the expenditure for police in South Australia, where ;t was said so much had been done in the way of retrenchment, was 6s Of d per head of the popular tion. In Victoria there was one policeman to every 774, and the cost 4s 4d per head ; in New South Wales, one in every 655, and the cost 5s ll^d per head ; in Queensland one to every 349, and the cost 9s OJd per head. Another question bound up in this defence vote was the cost of the volunteers. The expense'of the volunteers amounted to £44,000 » year, and some people wished to see that done away with. He did not believe that if we were to maintain an efficient volunteer system that that vote could be reduced considerably, and he considered that in the end such a system was the cheapest form of defence that any nation could adopt. ' Then some people asked ; Whas about the Native department ? What did they think was the cost of the Native department ? The total cost of that department proper wag £3245, and it had to look after 40,000 people who were not yet thoroughly acquainted either with our civilisation or our laws. There was, of course, an additional amount of £12,000 odd for the Native Land Courts, but that was absolutely necessary if they wished to have the Native title investigated and the lands brought .under our laws. The present Gevernment, however, had been so successful in carrying on the Native Land Courts that they had been enabled this year to reduce the expenditure by something like £6000. Referring to

THE WORKING BAILWAYS,

he might say that from the way some people spoke others might be led to imagine that there had been no saving in the Working Railways department. There was now an additional mileage to the working railways of no less than 250 miles, between 1884-85 and 1886-87, and there were 53 new stations, and these were worked without having increased the staff much and also without reducing wages or salaries. Some asserted that the saving had been effected because less work had been done; but when the items were taken it would be seen that was not the case. Ou comparing the traffic in 1884-5 with the traffic in 1886-7, it would be seen that in the latter year 193,517 additional passengers were carried, there were 2822 additional season tickets issued, an increase in the live stock carried of 212,489, and an increase in the number of parcels carried of 24,962. The tonnage was about the same, there being a slight decrease of 2000 tons in the year 1886-7. There were also several items of additional expenditure—for example, that caused by the unfortunate goods shed fire here and the claims that arose in consequence, — and yet though there were, as he had said, 25Q miles more railway to work, the expenditure had only increased by about £9000. If they would calculate the mileage.that had been run on the railways they would see that what the Minister of Public Works had said in his Statement was quite correct — namely, that since the present Government had undertaken the management of the railways, if they considered the mileage rate, their administration had saved at the rate of no less a sum than £100,000 per annum ; and again he would repeat this had been done without reducing the salary or the wages of any one man working on the railways. He would give another illustration of how they had proceeded with the retrenchment in reference to another department.

DEPAHTMENTAL SAVINGS.'

He would take for example the Public Works department. When the present Government took office — and he eliminated the number of men engaged on surveys because some of them had contracts — there were" 157 men employed in this department. The Government' had so reduced tUese $afc tfcere. were now only 116 em-

ployed—a reduction of no less than 51 officers in one department.— (lnterruption, and a voice t " Tell us about Colin Allan.") The Chairman ; I do hope you will keep that man quiet.

Sir R. Stout certainly thought it very unfair that that large meeting should be disturbed by one man. He weaft on to say that ia the Justice department also they had reduced the number of officers by 50 or 60, and to show how economically the departments were managed he would tell them the total cost of. managing the Education department in Wellington. He did not think there was any bank or mercantile house in the colony got so much work dene I for the money. The department had to over- ! look all the education boards, see to the dis'tributotra of between £300,000 aad £400,000, inspect high schools, and look after a great number T)f industrial schools. The reports about every child were read, carefully collated and recorded every month, there were a number of Native schools scattered about the country to see after, and yet the total expense of the head office in salaries>as only £1855.— (Applause.) But he must pass onu— (A Voice: "Take a caravan. 1 What about the special train ?") He would just say one word more with reference to the Pablic Works department. He thought the Government could say this, that during their three years' administration not one district had been able to say that they had been unfairly treated in the management of public works. This was because they had tried to look at the distribution of the public works fund from a colonial point of view, and had tried to act fairly to all parts of the colony.— (Applause.) Then it had been asked what had they done with reference to the Otago Central Railway. He would quote the percentagesof the public works fund that had been spent on the Otago Central since 1879 down to the present time. Excluding from the estimate the amount spent on open lines, the percentages were :— ln 1879-80, 5-8 per cent.; in 1881, 5 per cent, fin 1881-82, 4'8 pet- cent. ; in 1882-83, 5-7 percent. ; in 1883-4, I*B per cent.; in 1884-85 (for which they wore not responsible), 4*5 per centi; in 1885-6 (for which they were responsible), 175 per cent. ■ —(applause)— and in 1886-87, 165 per cent. This year the expenditure would even be at a much larger rato than any preceding year. He would now consider the question of

TAXATION. The cry had been raised that they proposed to largely increase the taxation of the colony. He would show that that was not true. Now, there were two ways to look at taxation. An increase would be either an absolute increase of the amount or of the relative amount per head, Now they all knew what to increase the absolute amount per head meant. Suppose 1£ million were raised from customs and the Treasurer said there should be If million raised from customs, then he would be proposing a quarter of a million increase. But the increase might nob be a relative increase per head, because the population might have increased. But did the Government even propose to increase it absolutely ? If the highest estimate of their new tariff were adopted, the amount receivable from customs would be £1,460,000. Let them go back a bit and see what was the amount raised in 1882. it was actually £1,516,917, so that actually if they had obtained all the customs revenue they asked under their new tariff they still would have no less a sum than £55,917 less from customs than was obtained by their predecessors in the year 1882. — (Applause.) And yet some people, magpie-like, kept on talking about the proposal to increase the taxation. The taxation per head, even if the customs tariff had been adopted, would have been £2 6s, and it had never been so low as that since 1870 ; so that it was conclusively proved that the people who went on saying "Oh, you proposed to increase the customs" were wrong so far as getting more revonue was concerned, and that both absolutely and per head they did not propose to get so much from customs revenue as was obtained in 1882 ; and it must be remembered that they had to provide more interest and sinking fund than in 1882. This was necessary because there were more loans, but he did not by that statement mean to imply that they were not getting a return from some of the loans. The fall in the customs revenue was attributable to three things. First, there had been a fall in prices, and as the duties were mainly ad valorem a fall in the prices meant less customs duties. And the best test was this, that although we were getting less customs there were yet more goods imported than there were four years ago. How was this to be explained ? In this way, that the price of goods had fallen. Then there was another reason for the lessened customs return, and it was one in which he gloried — people had been drinking less whisky. — (Applause and interruption.) He heard one man say he could not get it. Well, he hoped he never would get it. — (Laughter.) The third reason for the decrease — and he admitted it was a reason, although not to the extent to which it had been harped on — was that the people had less spending power. He admitted these three reasons, and it was because there was less spending power that the Government had striven all they could and would still strive to effect retrenchment in the public service. Now there were various ways in which taxation could be raised — he might say three ways. They might put on . a ' direct tax such as the property tax, increase the railway rates, or increase the customs duties. The Government did not propose to increase the railway rates, and he would tell them why. Although they were less than in any other colony, except in one class in Victoria — viz., wheat for export, — the Government did not propose to increase them, because they thought it would be unfair. They thought the railways should be so utilised as to help the settlers in the country, and thus increase production and promote settlement in every way possible. — (Applause.) The Government's policy ■

Great interruption here occurred through Mr Agnew and his wife, the notorious petitioners, rising in the body of the hall. Mr Agnew gesticulated fiercely at the Premier, and poured out a torrent of eloquence which was quite inaudible on the platform, owing to the general uproar. Mrs Agnew also uplifted her voice, and it was some time before order could be restored.

Sir R. Stout, resuming, said he had told them the Government proposed no increase of railway rates, and. he would tell them what kind of taxation was proposed. So Jar as the property tax was concerned, it was proposed that the ordinary exemption up to £500 should remain, and they proposed that properties worth not more than £2500 should enjoy the same exemption of £500 as at present, and be subject on the balance to th« present tax of 13-16ths of a penny. But they proposed that there should be no exemption on properties exceeding £2500 in value, and that the tax on them should be Id. Passing on to tht> customs tariff, he said he had promised his constituents when he was elected that if the customs were to be maintained they ought to consider in what ways they pould }ielp local industries. — (Applause.) He.

jbad done what he could fcb carry oWtpifcl>lesge* He had not time to go into the question of „

FREBTftADB AND PROTECTION, '• '< but he might have time on a future occasion. He did not wish to shirk the question. He was willing to deal with it fully, and he thought he understood it. He would just say' this much that so long as the State recognised it to be its ,duty to look to education; so' long as the State recognised it to be its duty to promote settlement ; so long as it recognised it to be a duty to make railways; to aid miners in constructing water*races and sludge channels \ and to make rates to help the ■ poor and . afflicted — so long -as it recognised all .these things> then it must also be the .duty of the State to help in every way it possibly could' the local industries in our' midst so that manufactures might progress.— (.Applause.) Buthe would just utter one warning to" those who ' were engaged in agriculture and had 1 ' promulgated the doctrine that' manufactures should not be considered* in framing the tariff, that they had no right to ask the State to reduce the railway rates in order that their produce might be carried cheaper.— (Applause.) ' Let- them frame their tariff so as to help the tradesmen and manufacturers in then* midst, drawing capital into their manufactures, and training their young men and women also to work _ in the factories. — (Applause.) i This question would take up almost a night .to itself,' and he intended on some future occasion to elaborate it. He had notes' on it, but . could not deal with it now ; but he would say that all through the world the feeling was very much changing on this subject. He had received a letter from the Agent-general on the previous day, and would read an extract from it concerning what had taken place at the Colonial Con- . fererice." So far as he (Sir B. Stout) knew, our able Agent-general was a Freetrader, and yet in the letter dated sth May 1887 he wrote as follows: — " The discussions at the conference relating to trade have been very animated, and the tendency of them all has been in the direction of a Protectionist policy. > As regards the condition of the West Indies, Mauritius, Queensland, and the sugar -producing colonies generally, the bounty .system now in existence in France and Germany was naturally condemned in strong terms, opinions being freely expressed in favour of meeting foreign bounties by countervailing duties. Even Mr Service, though speak" ing as a Freetrader, gave a general approval of this method, and no other delegate having openly opposed it the Secretary of State assumed, as he had a right to do, that the conference was nearly unanimous in recommending her Majesty's Government to adopt it. This he regarded as one of the signs of the times, and a sign which they could not very well ignore. He did not go the length, as they well knew, that some people went in dealing, with these duties, but he did go the length the tariff went ; and he would say they might even have to go further, and that whatever tariff had to be framed they ought to keep constantly before their view the need for help ing local industries so far as they could. During the last year or two they must have noticed that the imports to Dunedin had fallen off to the extent of something like one million. Now, what was the lesson to be drawn from' that ? The, lesson was this : that so far as being a distributing port was concerned, Dunedin had had to meet competitors in the field, and he believed that in the future it would be found' that] this city could not regain the position it held some year's before as the great distributing commercial centre of New Zealand. He would tell them, however, what this city might become if the people only had confidence in themselves in this great city and in the colony — if they had such confidence Dunedin might become the manufacturing centre of the colony. There was in this city water power, coal was handy and cheap, and what was of still more importance, there were here trained men to carry on the industries. If an impetus were oply given to manufactures in Dunedin we should have prosperity such as we had not seen since the digging days. He was not saying that every item in the tariff was defensible. They must remember that in framing the tariff the Government could not go outside and ask for the' opinions of experts, but the proposals were to be considered in committee, and when the Customs Duties Bill was brought down it was expressly stated that the items would have to be considered one by one, and the House was asked to keep in mind two things, and two thingsonly — that the Government wished to have some additional revenue, and that they asked the House to look at each item as to how it would affect the local industries in our midst. '

THE PROPERTY TAX. Before leaving the property tax he wished to say that he believed it was not the fairest system ; but the ' Government tried to modify it in 1885 and were defeated, and now they had got all the valuations made under it and it would be a great waste of money to change it, at all events for two or three years, because the new system had cost some £20,000 or £30,000 to bring into operation. It had been rightly said that it was not on the tariff alone that the Government were defeated. It was mainly on three things, and two of these were continually kept in the background by those who defeated them. The three matters — and he asked the audience if it was not- so— Mr Ballance's Land Acquisition Bill, their graduated property tax, and the customs tariff. He would explain, he hoped, on another evening this Land Acquisition Bill and go into thel and question generally ; but as' to the graduated property tax, he believed it was fair; and he looked upon it as being founded on Adam Smith's doctrine of "equality of sacrifice." They must remember that a man who had a large amount of property was better able to pay taxation. The proposition on the other side was that they should have done away with the exemption altogether. This would have meant that 21,951 taxpayers would have had to pay an increase in their taxes of 83 per cent., while 6235 of the richest people and the largest companies in the colony would only have hadjan increase of 3*B per cent.

SUBJECTS FOB FRIDAY^

He found, as he often found at public meetings, that he was unable even to get through what he proposed for that evening, and he should therefore leave certain other subjects for Friday. On that evening he would take up at the Princess Theatre the following subjects : — (1) A sketch of the politics of New Zealand during the past 17 years ; (2) the hind question; and (3) what should be our future policy in dealing with public works. — (A Voice : " Retrenchment.")

THE BETKENCBQCJ3NT SHOWN. He had dealt with retrenchment that evening, but he wished to add one word before closing — viz., that their Estimates showed a saving even as regarded the education vote, because he asked for less by £2000 than last year,, seeing that it was proposed to gradually reduce the 5s extra allowed outside the £3 15s given by the act. He explained that this could be done if boards were as economically' managed as they could possibly be, although he did not mean to say

that they were not generally managed -with ■economy. „ The Hatiniates shdwed a saving com- - pared with. last year's Estimates of no less a gum, than £lso^l2.t-( Applause.); Such a saving hadnever before been,-; attempted' by,; any Go-, yernment in this colony ., without reducing the wages of the workmen. — (Ap-J plause.) Some of the' members said -in the - lobbies, " Oh, you • can .easily save £47,000 if you will only knock 6d off the pay, of - the men who are working on. the railways " ; but he had said he was not in favour of that, and hewas not in favour , of it now. All they had done had been done in the face of strong opposition in the House and in the Legislative Council. — „ (Great interruption, caused by , .the Agnews shouting at the top of their voices .and gesticu-. i lating in a frantic manner.) There, were , some ; i other matters on which, he wished to speak, but he found his throat was not in good order, .and he hoped they would excuse him troubling.jbhem further at that meeting. - , i

j '"' JI»J I» dONOtUSION " ''' "'■"'• ; He said: I have. deal b with the qdestion, of^ j retrenchment', I have also dealt* with, the ;ques-!; ques- ! itioh of taxation,' aiid I will now say this, to you,' elector's in', Dunedin ;,East.. ' There' 'are two' ; courses' open to you: m'ay,'if ' you^like^ listen to the dictation that has been' "'given' by my friend Major Atkinson's' whip, or you may •elect me, I'tell'ypu frankly 1 1 ! have ' explained 'to you whaijca'n bp done. 'I will ; gb' further and' tell you this— 'and I ani not' id" the 'habit of [making pledges that I" do not keep.— (Cries of ,"Oh.") 1 see' my' way; without'ariy injury'tir ,the civil servants, to go even ' farther 'iri retrenchment' than -we propose' in' 1 1887-88.' I believe that there may tie a saving effected," .though I am* not going to explain how, in addi•tion.to the £20,000 odd >we propose to take off 'the, civil service^— a saving including , that of ' £100,000. I have hot time to-night t.0,g0 into this, ; but I tell you that could be done, I believe, with- , out impairing the efficiency of .the Government service. .We see our way to that, and I am not , saying this without .careful consideration of more I than a week's duration that the Cabinet , has . had. We have our plans prepared for that, and Iwe will be 'able to propose it next session. j Gentlemen, I have explained to you what my, • views on retrenchment' are ; I have explained j what my views on taxation are, and I have explained to you especially ' my | views on education. Of course it is for. you to say whether you approve of them or not.-r-("No, no "; " Yes "; and applause. ) We hear a good deal just now about independent candidates. My friend Major Atkinson says an independent candidate is . .an , independent nuisance, [and I will say this, .that if a .politician is to do any -good in the House he , must range himself on one side, or the other.— 1 ' (Hear, hear.) No man — to use a phrase which none of you will understand, I feel sure, because none. of you play cards— no man can play a "lone hand." You must take up' one side, or <the other. Gentlemen, I know,, l have in this community, as I must have, some people who , are not friendly to me. The stand I have taken. in, politics in the past necessarily meant ; that I have had to fight some, very * strong ' companies, that I have hail to fight aj great number of people, but I will say^this— l i appeal to you who , know my political life whether I have not constantly fqught for what. I believ.e to be truly Liberal and truly .demp; , cratic. — (Hear, hear.) I have said, we hear a j good deal about independent candidates— well, f I am just as independent as any candidate, who, may seek your suffrages. I tell you.thjs, th^t I;am not going to alter one of the political opinions" , I have expressed here to-night for any seat that you or any other constituency can offer me.— , (Applause.) If you are,to elect me, you.ar©. to elect me because of my. opinions. " I say^geritlemen, that I am willing, if you please, tp, serve you; but I say further .this: If you' are pleased to think you can be better served by any other man, elect him. I shall not iee^ offended one whit. I can , retire to , my' office and perform my own work. I have loved politics ever since I came Here, and I love them still ; but lam determined, if lam returned to Parliament, that I shall be returned because of the political views I .hold. I, have stated to you frankly -what my political views are. My, fate so far as my candidature is concerned is in your hands. I do not ask your support,except you believe in my political principles, and 1 I feel sure that you are, too independent to be swayed one way ot ,the other in this contest by .other considerations, but that as honest men, having the future welfare of this colony at heart, you will elect the man whom you think has the ability to serve you, who has the honesty to serve you, and who in the'past has shown by his political life that he has fought for what he believed to be right, whether it pleased his constituents or not.

qUESTIONS. In answer to questions, Sir Robert Stout said the , Governor's trip in the Hinemok to the West Coast Sounds did not cost £1000, and he, did not , see why the Governor should not 6ee the sounds as ' well as any other person. He was not in favour of Bible-reading in schools. — (Applause ;and hisses.) He w.ould leave the question of the total ..suppression of the liquor traffic to the votes of the people, and if the people voted in that direction — as he would 'vote — he would have it suppressed. In reply, to a question as to whether.he was in favour of the suppressionof convents and, monasteries. Sir R. Stout stated that he was -for equal religious liberty to all.— (Applause.) Ha was not in favour, of the Hon. G. .M'Lean's measure for strengthening the position of the totalisator., Unless betting were suppressed, it was no use to suppress the •(totalisator. His .title was offered to him unsolicited — (cries of " Oh !") — and unexpected, and he would have refused it did he not think that it would have looked something like snobbery <on his part not to have accepted it.— (Applause and renewed cries of ,'f Oh !") In answer .to a query as to what the Government meant to do with reference to the Agnews' claim, Sir R. Stout stated that the history of the case was that Agnew had an agricultural lease on the goldfields, and the conditions of the lease were that the man was to go into possession and pay- rent for a certain number of .years, and at the end of the term get the land, having paid for it on the deferredrpayment system. Agnew entered upon the land and employed a coloured gentleman to assist him. This coloured, gentleman did not receive his wages, and sued Agnewinthe Resident Magistrate's Court at Naseby and ol> tamed judgment. -A warrant was issued to Bell out Agnevrs interest in the land, and it was sold,- a Mr Indef purchasing it.. Agnew contended that the bailiff had no right to sell the land, and petitioned the House, and the House — very generously, as he (the speaker) thought — bought the land back for ■ Agnew, gave him a free Crown grant, although he had not made his payments, and. gave him £50 into the bargain.. In replying to further -questions', 1 he said that the pamphlet which Mr Scobie Mackenzie did him the honour to ref erto in the House was written by, him no. less than 16-years ago— (applause),— and he, would only say that he hoped that Mr Scobie Mackenzie added to his

knowledge of political economy in thel6ye*rs. It •was-not.truethat, at. enormous expense; he'eiri* 'ployed the.Hinemoa to take himself, family, and I secretary to -Wellington, .whereas he ,could,'have gone' at considerably less expense by.' train to jLyttelton and thenceby steamer to Wellington;' jthe fac.t was that the Hinemoa was returning at all events,' and he ■ availed himself of her. '.Sir, • Julius -Vogel had i made, no claim for '£lo,ooo as commission ,for floating loans and for the inscription of stock. Sir; Julius believed he was 'entitled to .a 'commission, but ., thought •. it' iwouldnot, be I:, fair, to make the.'if claim Iwhile ihe was,-- in } office., .Sir. Julius- Vogel iWas not allowed > two of, the police' iforce \as j body . servants,-, nor. '< was it >',true 'that the - Hinemoa was .employed at the ex-: ipense of the;oolony,to.take. Sir Julius. to the Hot Lakes. The HinemoaAhappened '.to;be going .to Auckland, and' Sir. Julius went; by her., lln answer to a question as to whether ,he thought r 'that a civil- servant who .had £200 a year and ! offered 7s 66. in thepound to his creditors should, jremain! . in the 1 service, - Sir 'R. 1 Stout said ; that ihe did not: know. /the merits of the case.; .the jinan might have met with misfortune; He had; 'not requested Mr Smith to get up a requisition 'asking him to stand for Napier.; on- the con-: ,trary, he wired to Napier that' he would stand j (by Dunedin East.— (Cheers. A Voice : " You'll )be > sorry , you did.''),L He; was: sorry the Dunedin overbridge was ever constructed. • He 1 jhad had. nothing to do with: it.- > The contract I ;was let before he. entered Parliament; He would ■abolish the Upper^llouse if he had the power. 1 The House had no.powerto reduce the salary of •the present' Governor.<:., He had proposed to re-, ,duce the Ministers' salaries, and he was ''still; .favourable. to the reduction. „ • • .Mr A.-H. SHEtTON.'Said that, having heard Sir {Robert Stout's address, he begged to propose &■ 'vote of confidence in, him asibeing the most' fitting person to represent Dunedin East in the House of Representatives, and that every in-, .'fluence be used to return him at the head of the ■poll. — (Cheers.) 1 ' • ' \ ,'. Mr. Ct, Mitchell seconded the resolution, . which was . put and carried amid loud cheering' and uproar. • ' • < I A vote of thanks having been accorded to the (chairman,, the meeting broke up, calls for cheers for v Sir Robert Stout and for Mr James Allen j being made and responded to. , ■ •