Untitled

Otago Witness, Issue 1343, 25 August 1877, Page 8

The General Assembly.

The remedy for it, all admitted, was not to be found ia a single violent measure, such as proposed. He urged the enforcing of the Adalter&tioa Act, and reform in the constitution of licensing benches. Mr Hodgkinson would vote for the second reading, but not for the third, unless great alteration was made in Committee, as he agreed with nearly all the objections made to the details of the BilL Mr Macandrew deplored the evils of intemperance, but did not think the Bill would go to the root. Nothing would do so but prohibiting the importation or manufacture of ail Alcoholic liquor. He liked his glass of toddy very well, but would sacrifice it if the House would go that length. To close a licensed house would be to encourage slygrog selling. In Committee he would supS>rt the amendment giving compensation. c deplored the tone adopted by the advocates of the measure, in stigmatising in a most disgraceful manner all engaged in the liquor traffic. MrTole did not think the people of the Colony were open to the charge of excessive intemperance. The Bill was not a wellconsidered one, and was not required. It would mean ruin to brewers and others. Mr Montgomery thought tbe Bill arbitrary j and cruel, but would support the second reading, and endeavour to secure amend- ! ments In Committee. The districts were too £malL and tbe number of people required to pat the Act into force too few, and the length of residence required to vote too ■horb. The machinery for taking the vote was bad ; only house holders should vote. Applications for a new house should be in the hands of a majority of people, but twothirds or three-fifths should be required to shut existing houses, in which case no compensation should be required j but if only a bare majority did it, compensation should be due, although not for the good wilL Mr Lusk supported the Bill, because he approved of the principle. The details could be improved in Committee. Since last sssiion he had altered bis views on the question of compensation. To some extent there was good claim for compensation. The advocates of the principle should be prepared to make substantial sacrifices to suppress the traffic. Mr Joyce opposed the Bill. If its supporters were really in earnest, they could effect their object without such legislation ; in one way, by establishing hotels themselves, where good liquors would be sold at or below cost. This would shut up licensed houses within a far wider radius than proposed in the BilL He was tired of local option, but would support the principle if it was made real instead of sham, and if the came number of people who could close a house could also insist on no license fees being charged, and no duties imposed on liquors sold within a district. Local option should cut both ways. -The Hon. Mr Reynolds could not snpport the BilL It could not be made workable by any amount of Committee alterations. He objected to letters being sent to members by Good Templar Lodges, making political threats. If Good Templars were more moderate they would meet with more support. Mr Ballance had never heard a Bill more emphatically and entirely condemned even by those who professed to support its principles. The principle lay a great deal in its details, and these could not be made suitable in Committee. The Bill, in its essential features, differed entirely from Mr Stout's Bill last session. Nearly all the statesmen of England held publicans were entitled to compensation. The petitions before the House related to Mr Stout's Bill, not to this one. He quoted figures to show that drunkenness and the consumption of alcoholic liquorg were decreasing in this Colony. If a district wished to shut up public houses it should be prepared to pay compensation out of rates. *It would be better to reject the Bill at once than to attempt to alter and emasculate it in Committee Mr Stout, while not approving of Good Templars' circulars, Raid publicans had been equally threatening. A great evil to the Colony would be done if this question was made a political one year after year. It would also be a great evil to refer the question to local governing bodies. Better far refer the matter to a direct vote, and settle it at once, and eliminate iia consideration from Colonial politics. The law already required the signatures of householders to granting licenses. All the Bill proposed was to extend the principle, so as to inform the administrative or executive bodies what the mind of the people was on the subject. The principle of the direct vote was already rocognised in regard to Municipal loans. Ho did not believe law in advance of public opinion would be effective, but the Bill was a means towards the end. It would educate the people on the subject. This education had been begun, and was going on. He thought the proposed subdistricts too smalL In Victoria a Bench was left to fix limits. He thought there should be a roll formed of thousand qualified voters, and a vote be taken by ballot. From any point of view, he held the claim of compensation must utterly faiL He quoted authorities to show no such claim existed, as no vested rights created any contract beyond the year for which the license was granted. No compensation could bo demanded for abolishing a monopoly. Sooner than recognise that claim of compensation, he would like to see the Bill abandoned altogether. Let them refer the whole question from the Legislature to the people, and have it eliminated from Colonial politics altogether. Mr Hislop moved the adjournment of the debate till Wednesday. The House met at 2.30 this afternoon. Replying to Mr Seaton, The Hon. Mr Whitaker said no Crown grant had yet been issued to the Otago Harbour Board /or the laud between the Penininsula, Ocean Beach, and Dunedin Railway and Anderson's Bay road, but one in accordance with law was in preparation. On thii, an animated discussion ensued as to Hawkes Bay land dealings generally, Sir G. Grey challenging the Hon. Mr Onnond to move for a Committee to enquire into his own transactions. j The Hon. Major Atkinson rose, and said manliness and courage are not characteristic of the member for the Thames, who had persistently used his position $o slander members pf the Government

Mr William Wood rose, and moved that the words be taken down. The voices were against this, but The Speaker said it was very undesirable such language should be used. The leader of the House should especially set a good example. The Hon. Mr Atkinson continued : If I have expressed my opinion too plainly, I will withdraw the words, but I challenge the bon. member to place in writing the scandalous and disgraceful charges he has made over and over again here against members of the Ministry. If he does so, we will afford him an opportunity of justifying his charges before the Supreme Court. If Ministers did such thing 3, they should be immediately ejected from office. Mr Rees said he was prepared to substantiate the statements he had made about the Hon. Mr Ormond, or to put them into writing. He challenged the Government to move for a Committee to enquire into those land transactions, or support him. in doing so. Ministers, however, were afraid to do this. Sir R. Douglas suggested that members, instead of quarrelling with and abusing each other in the House, should settle difficulties of this kind outside. After further discussion as to Mr Russell's road, the debate drifted into one regarding the propriety of the Government being empowered still to take the 5 per cent, reserved in land sales for such purposes, although che right had not been exercised within ten years. Ia the end, The Hon. Mr Bowen said Government would agree to motion on the understanding that they were to consider the subject in its general bearing, and not in regard to one particular case. Motion agreed to. Messrs Richardson, Stevens, Lumsden, and Larnach were added to the Railway Management Committee. The Slaughterhouses Bill was referred to a Select Committee. Mr Bastings moved — "That in the opinion of thia House, it being now established that Counties are unable to make provision for the construction and maintenance of the nuin arterial roads of the Colony, it is imperative that immediate permanent provision should be made by Government for the gradual construction and maintenance of the same." His own County, as an instance, could not do the work for the next 50 years, and most others were similarly situated, although the works required were essential to progress ol settlement. Mr Hodgkinsoa asked who would define roads to be made, so as to avoid having political roads as well as political railways ? The Hon. Mr Reid «aid tbeae works might be provided for otherwise than by a vote of the House. It was most essential to the good government of the Colony that the Legislature should be relieved of the duty of distributing money for particular works. In time ; he thought, Counties might be able to overtake all such works required, especially if further borrowing powers were given. Arrangements might be made to enable these bodies to use the credit of the Colony to raise necessary funds. It was certainly not yet proved that Counties could not do these works. They should be done under local control and management. Messrs Gisborne and J. C. Brown supported the motion. The debate was interrupted by che dinner hour. ; August 17fch. On the House resuming, last evening, The Hon. Mr Whitaker, as a matter of privilege, called attention to an article in the Oamaru Mail of the 13 th inst., reflecting on his conduct in relation to the Native Lands BilL Although not in the habit of noticing newspaper attacks, in justice to his colleagues and the House he felt bound to notice this, and accordingly moved that the publisher of the Mail, George Jones, jun., be ordered to attend at the bar. He read the article, and denied all knowledge of the alleged facts. The, whole thing, from beginning to end, was absolutely false. Mr Wakefield thought thn House should be fully informed regarding the facts before being asked to declare it a breach of privilege. If Mr Whitaker had been libelled as a member of the House, it was a breach of privilege; but the House has no right to interfere if he was attached only as a private individual. At present the House was ignorant of the facts and taken by surprise. The article being read by the Clerk of the House, Mr Stout said that, however gross the libel, they could accept Mr Whitaker's denial, »nd would best consult its own dignity by accepting that, and taking no further notice. Messrs Rees, Fox, and Gisborne held the article to be a gross libel, and that the I House should make an example in the case. Mr Thomson agreed with Mr Stout. The motion declaring the article a breach of privilege was carried unanimously. Further discussion arose on the motion of ordering the printer and publisher of the Oamara mail to attend at the bar. The Hon. Mr Whitaker disclaimed all personal feeling in the matter, and would leave it entirely iv the hands of the House. Messrs Stout and Reynolds urged letting the matter drop. Mr Wakefield agreed the article was a gross libel. Mr Travers urged making an example of this libeller of a Minister of the Crown, and that no apology, made with impertinent humility, should be accepted. The motion was carried on the voices. Mr Takamoana resumed the Native Lands Bill debate. The Government should not be allowed to prepare the Bill, but Maoris should be left to prepare one for themselves during the recess. European attempts at legislation on the subject were all unsatisfactory; this one especially. No further attempt should be made this year. Replying to Captain Morris's statement that there were no Maori paupers, he named Tareha, a great chief, now wituout an acre of land, although always a firm friend to the Government which had acquired all his land. There were many other similar cases. The Natives had been robbed of their land under the law. He objected to stopping the sale of Native land during the year, unless all pending Govtrnment purchases were also suspended, " i

Mr Honi Nahe said the Natives objected to the whole Bill. If this Bill were withdrawn, he would support all the Bale 3of land. Mr Hunter thought Government had always shown a desire to deal fairly with the Natives, though it sometimes made mistakes. He thought it desirable it should now be given to the Government to consider the direction legislation on Native lands should take, and for the Natives also to consider it. He regretted the subject was made a party one. Mr Tawiti thought the Bill should now be withdrawn, and the Natives be consulted regarding aay fresh legislation on the subject. The Natives could then propose measures for the approval of the Government. Without any division or negative voices the motion was carried as amended on the following terms : That the order of the diy be discharged from the Order Paper to enable the Government to give effect to the amendment of the member for Kangitikei now pending, as an amendment to the order for the second reading of the Native Lands Court Bill. The Auckland Grammar School Site Bill was read a second time. The Dunedin Drillahed Reserve Bill, and Invercargill Gas Works' Loan Bill were passed through Committee, read a third time, and passed. The New River Harbour Management Bill ; Conveyance Ordinance Amendment Bill ; New Plymouth Harbour Board's Ordinance Amendments Bill ; and Wellington Coilega Act Amendment Act were read a second time. The Wellington City Reserves Amendment Bill was read a third time. The House adjourned at 12. 15. In the House this afternoon, Replying to Mr Evans Brown, The Hon. Mr Ormund said the exact route for the extension of the railway 15 miles north of Anaberley was not yet determined, consequently nothing had been done to acquire the land or fix terms. Replying to Mr Barfl'e, The Hon. Mr Bowen said Government had received no memorial complaining of misconduct on the part of Mr Bird, R.M., Okarito. The Hon. Mr M'Lean promised to produce correspondence regarding the removal of Edward Ryan from Postmastership, Gillespie Head, Westland. Replying to Mr Larnach, The Hon. Mi* fleid said Government fully recognised the magnitude of the evil of the rabbit nuisance, but they were not prepared to introduce measures rendering it compulsory on leaseholders and freeholders to exterminate rabbits on holdings, and making Crown lands contribute. It would be inconvenient to add a clause in this direction to the Sheep and Cattle Bill. The Government would fairly consider any Bill introduced by a private member. In reply to Mr Joyce, The Hon. Mr M'Lean said he would ascertain the cost of. extending the telegraph direct from Invercargill to Queenstown. Mr Travers asked Government what steps they intended to take in reference to Mr G. E. Barton's petition? The Hon. Mr Whitaker replied that all petitions had in the first instance to go before the Petitions Committee; no other course was open, and when.the Committee reported, the Government would inform the House what steps they intended to take. In reply to Mr Fisher, The Hon Mr Bowen said he believed a private member would introduce a Bill to amend the Christchurch District Drainage Act. New Bills introduced : City of Auckland Loans Consolidation Bill (Mr Sheehan) ; Au3kiand City Endowments Reserves Bill (Mr Sheehan). , The debate was resumed on Mr Woolcock's Incidence of Taxation motion. The Hon Mr Bowen said Govtrnment quite agreed that property should be made to bear its fair share of the public burdens, but the matter required grave consideration. Government had made their financial proposals for the present year. He moved as an amendment, "That in the opinion of the House, the incidence of taxation should be adjusted so as to impose on property a fair share of the burdens entailed in the Colony by the expenditure on public works, and thereby afford means for the reduction of taxes on necessaries, and that the financial proposals of Government next session should embody this principle." Such change would enable them to place the whole finance or. a sounder basis, and afford an opportunity to consider on what objects the main burden of indirect taxation should be thrown so as to effect the greatest improvement possible. The ad valorem duties principle was not a sound one. Any change should rather improve the fiscal policy of the country than effect any great alteration in the proportion of the burdens of the different classes of the community. It was not wise for the country to rely exclusively on either direct or indirect taxation ; a mixed Byutem was most desirable. Half the present taxation was derived from trines, spirits, and tobacco. Hs hoped the totals from theae sources would be reduced gradually by decreased consumption. Already there was a sensible reduction in thia direction evident. The Hon Mr Reid, after very careful consideration, found it impossible to make any changes in taxation this year, when the chief object was to make both ends meet. The Speaker ruled the amendment could not be put. Mr Stafford suggested the House should allow Mr Woolcock to withdraw his motion. Mr Manders hoped this would not be allowed, but that Mr Woolcock would press the motion to a division. It was high time a change took place in the incidence of taxation, and there Bhculd be no further postponement in dealing with the subject. The Hon. Mr Reynolds had for years supported the proposal for a property tax. If members were true to their election pledges a majority would vote for it — not on land only, but all property above £300 or £500 should be taxed. He did not think such, tax would however allow of great relief to be afforded in other directions. With such great expenditure as ours the revenue was altogether insufficient. A property tax would not render possible any great reduction in the customs of the Colony, and they must give up extravagance and reduce ex-

penditure to the limit of their income. They had been too extravagant in the past. Mr Bunny warmly supported Mr Woolcock's motion, but it was evident no measure on the subject could be passed thia session. Mr Travers urged that the customs duties be imposed on as few articles as possible, so as to be easily collected. He deprecated the cry for additional taxation. So long as the Colony had revenue from any source no further taxation should be imposed. No proper system of finance was possible till the whole land revenue was pa>d into the Colonial purse. T'lat must come. It was the duty of the House and Government to face the question. To carry on the Public Works policy Government must have possession of all the revenue of the Colony, and no further compromise was possible. Mr Gibbs thought property was already levied by local rates, and that it would be unwiso at present to press the question. Mr Sntton supported a property tar. One should have been impoEed when the State, by public works, enormously increased the value of property. Mr Lumsden thought any new tax should interfere as little as possible with industry and enterprise. A public demand had been made for a reduction in taxation on *uch socalled necessaries as tea and sugar. The County and Rating Acts really had effected an alteration in the incidence of taxation. The House might consider ths question, but it was not desirable to rush into a complete change ©f fiscal policy. He preferred Mr Bowen'a proposal to Mr Woolcock's. Mr Fisher supported Mr Woolcock's motion. The present system of finance could not last, of paying subsidies ti local bodies out of loan. Now wa3 the time to face the question. He objected altogether to a common purse, or the North sharing the South, era land fund. Sir R. Douglas said it was doubtful whether the whole Southern land did not belong to the Natives, and not to the Government or Provinces. Mr Woolcock's amendment being carried on the voices, became a substantive motion. Mr Bowen was about to move his amend* ment, but Sir George Grey rose first, and moved an amendment, to the effect that a property tax and income tax should be immediately imposed, so &s to enable the people of the Colony to be relieved from customs duties on necessaries. The country had been misled by the Financial Statement. Within 18 months the Colony would require to borrow five millions more to meet liabilities. To meet this, our finance should immediately be put on a sound basis. We cduld neither stop nor go back, and to get means to go on we shoald rearrange oar system of taxation. He objected altogether to the system of finance advocated by Mr Bowen, which was almost as ridiculous a process as the Bills of finance of last session. Prospective finance was the duty of statesmen ; and the Government were book- keepers, who, how•Ydr, despite promises, presented their accounts in a most involved and most unintelligible form. A plain statement of the position of the Colony was wanted, but could not be got. Government should thia year have brought down proposals to change the incidence of taxation, and have taken a complete and comprehensive view of the condition of the Colony — a policy which, while affording relief to people, would still have met the requirements of the country. Why not impose an acreage tax on land, so that the chief burden would not fall on those who improved properties, but on those who acquired enormous estates. Extent, not improvements, should be taken. Lauds acquired from Natives in the way they had been could well bear an acreage tax. The annual charge for a sinking fund of £180,000 a-year should not be continued, This could be done without injustice to the debentureholders. People might be relieved of taxation through Customs to the extent of £359,000 a-year on the necessaries of life — such as tea, sugar, coffee, haberdashery, candles, kerosene, apparel, drapery, rice, cotton goods. There were mercantile profits on duties paid and the real saving would be far greater to consumers. Thus saving could be effected immediately— within a month— instead of being put off for a year, when probably it would not be done at all. He would make all land pay a tax. If a man had but one acre, let him pay proportionately, and so De made feel himself no pauper or Communist. Such a tax would sip in the bud attempts to create a spurious landed aristocracy. Large reductions in official expenditure, probably to tbe extent of £100,000 a. year, could be made. The land fund should also be made Colonial revenue, but portion should stdl be apportioned for local purposes, in roads, &y. benefiting the land. *' The dobate was interrupted at 5 30. ♦ n.. „ . . August 18th. Un the House resuming last evening, Sir George Grey continued his speech on the incidence of taxation. L 350,000 might fairly be expected from the land fund after providing for local necessities. Native lands should be so dealt with as to assure the Natives they would receive their full value. Public interest demanded this, rather than that speculators should make an intermediate profit. Probably auction was perhaps the best system of sale The Natives would thus derive great benefit in return for which they should bear a share' of the public burthen. Twenty five per cent, of all land sales taken would foim a really Colonial land revenue, under proper administration. He saw difficulty in recouping the amount of taxes proposed to be remitted, from the increased j taxation and savings ; a million a year could be added to the Consolidated fund, aeainat L 359.000 taken off the Customs. Thus the revenue would be improved, while the majority of the taxpayers would be relieved,, and their position improved. Even the wealthy would receive a complete return for their increased contribution. The Natives would be satisfied settlement promoted, and population retained' instead of being driven away. If Ministers were not willing immediately to carry out such a system, he saw around him many men capable of doing so, and whom he would be quite willing to follow as a- leader in doing it. He believed »uch a system as he sketched would ultimately be adopted as the fiscal policy of the Colony. Mr Macandrew seconded the motion. He hoped the Government would accept propo«als made in such a convincing manner. In Heaven's name, let them for once throw party feeling to the winds, and adopt a system which would so greatly benefit every m?n, woman and child in the Colony. There was no reason why effect should not be given to the proposals

immediately. They might not agree to all de- 3*3 * tails, however. He objected to a per cental of the land fund going into the Colonial cheat, He would prefer an acreage rate of, say 2s 6d ; per acre being made Colonial revenue. " The Hon. Major Atkinson regretted that Sir G. Grey had accused the Government of at- ■ tempting to deceive the public creditor in their' Financial Statement. He was glad he had . come out in his true colours as a leader of the Opposition with a definite policy. If Sir Geo ' Grey could at once change the whole policy of Ihe country, he was the man for the - country. The House could to - night chooso between Sir George Grey and his policy and the Government aid theirs. If the House prefered the former, Sir G. Grey could have all Tuesday to prepare new government measures. The whole interest and sink- - mg fund this year were paid by duties on - luxuries, contributions from land revenue and earnings of railways. Property was also taxed - by stamps-L120,000. Property indeei con- j tributed 1i220,000 to ordinary expenses The Government, ia addition to paying the cost of ' the public debt, held it would be wise to have some direct taxation, so as net to have all the Colony's eggs in one basket. It was not the , ,poor who contributed most to taxation. He ' adhered to the figures he used last year showing the contribution exacted to the revenue on r the necessaries of life. It was very easy to say reduce the estimates L 100,000; but Sir G Grey ' gave no indication how. What would the Natives say to taking 25 per cent, off their ' land fund Sir G Grey's estimate of a contri- 1 bution of 1300,000 from ihe land fund was • utterly fallacious— he overlooked the provincial : liabilities. He would find the deficieucv was at leas t L2oo.ooo in his estimate of the reveS from tins source. The Government for years had been labouring to relieve the Colony from a sinking fund; but the creditors and, Imperial Government had a voice in that matter The chief object of the Insciip. toon of Stock Bill was actually to do what Sir • It. Grey now proposed as a new idea. It was absolutely impossible to raise such a sum as ' bir G. Grey proposed from either land or pro. ', pertytax. To raise such a sum as was proposed, a tax of 3s or 4s in the £ would be necessary. People would never submit to this. He • should strongly object to a tax on land alone. At > present, land yielded leas return on capital than any other property. The House had decided between Sir G. Grey and the Government" whether a change be made this year or not. Ihe Government had provided satisfactory finance for the country for the present yean They were quite prepared to accept Sir G. Greys challenge, and to stand on their pro. ppsals as opposed to his. He challenged Sir G. Grey to show a* single statement he (Major Atkinson) had made in his first Pnancial Statement two years ago which remained unfulfilled, ' By prudent administration, they had got the country into a condition where they could exist without present further taxation, and therefore ' S? m ?? e no a P ol °Sy f °r not proposing any. , Mr Montgomery denied the finance of theGovernment was as careful or far-seeing as claimed by Major Atkinson. It had been de- " lusive in the extreme, although not intentionally so. Government claimed having made agreat saving. He would ahow this to be anTSr^nn I™* 6 ? 1 ot l^'®® being L 51.000 departmental liabilities had not been provided for, and -1,21,000 had not been paid to ' .Mumcipdlities. Mr Montgomery then at con siderable length criticised the figures of the I<inanci<d Statement, strongly condemning the^ manner m which the Treasury had dealt with, matters. It was no doubt in accordance with law, but it was miserably bad finance, and Major Atkinson was responsible for the law JNo means were provided for taking up Treasury bills, or paying the Bank overdraft. He thought the Treasurer was 1/1.00,000 wrong in his estimate of the land fund. He believed the necessities of the country would soon force the bouth to give up the right to the land fund. > Me never took a gloomy view of the resources of the country, but he did of a system offinance which was imposing burthens greater almost than they could bear— far greater than were necessary under a proper system of finance. Mr Stafford, at Timaru, had denounced that system as a miserable sham, but had not stood up in the House to denounce it bir George Grey's speech contained the el°ments of a grand policy. Sir George Grey's principles were perfectly sound, and he hoped to see them placed on the Statute book, and they would not rest till this were done Mr Stout said no Ministry in any country had ever shown sucb meanness. Rest such as the lreasurer required was impossible. They must go on before resting, and place the burden of taxation on shoulders which should bear it lo be asked to wait a year even for a scheme' was not what the country had right to expect as the Government on Native Lands Bill had asked, and now they were trying to shuffle in th« same manner with this BilL Evidently Ministers thought themselves simply a Committee to carry out whatever the majority of the House wished— that the proper position to assume was that they would do anything or everything- next year. Mr Stout then' discussed i Jt^ml °l ? he Financial Statement at !^?\r™S% CC ° lonj \ hat l reaU y S° ne to bad some LGOOO during the last year, and within the next 18 months at least four millions more would have be borrowed to meet liabilities * 6 iS t0 P reviou s Financial Statements from 1870 to present time, to show the delusive nature of Government , finance— how all the glowing prospects held out had been realised Government either was so ignorant that it could not predict finance a year in advance, or had wilfully deceived the House and country. Thus the whole Abolition policy had proved an utter failure, especially m its finance, while the Assembly was fast becoming, as predicted in 1875, a big Provincial Council dealing with roads and bridges, because local bodies were unable to do so, or to promote settlement. The promises with regard to education reserves had also proved utterly delusive. Direct taxation was a really essential part of the Public Works Policy, and in 1870 Sir Julius Vogel had predicted it as probable within three years. Yet now they were told this was net to be imposed till the public works were complete. The progress made in 1874 to abolish the Provinces was .simply a plot to seize on the Provincial revenues in order to keep a privileged class free from taxation as long as possible. Major Atkinson, whose argument was to show how utterly impossible and delusive it was to do what the House proposed the Government should do next year, had argued also that property was now paying a fair share of taxation, yet the Government proposed to increase this next year. He did not use a single argument to show why the House should pass Mr Bowen's amendment, buc many against. It had a most injurious moral effect on people to teach them finance was a juggle and a muddle, and yet that was the lesson taught by Government. I hey proposed to put the provident and improvident on an equality. The uncertainty of our finance would deter capital more than any settled taxation. Property owners should take wa ™ n f by the experience of Victoria. The Hon. Mr Reynolds thought Government could very well introduce a property tax this session, even if it did not come into force for six or nine months, by which time the machinery to collect it would be provided. He did

no think the Government finance a satisfactory one for the Colony, although perhaps this was unavoidable. Mr Harper agreed with the remarks of the Financial Statement regarding additional taxation. The matter had not been sufficiently considered, and the country had not been consulted. Instead of capital being driven out of the Colony, there was never so much foreign capital invested in laud as within the last two years. He did not believe the present taxation bore heaviest on the industrial classes. The tax on necessaries really only amounted to 153 or lfe per bead. A property tax would prevent the introduction of capital, and so ■ reduce the demand /or labour that the labouring class would feel it most severely. It was utterly impossible to deal tvith the question this session. Mr Pyke said the question had been before the country for the last ten years on every hustings. Three fourths of the members of the House were pledged to a revision of the system of taxation. The County system had i forced property to contribute more than I ever before to public works, but that was only a prefaon to what was now proposed. Many miners working in claims contribnted more to taxation than many rich land ownras, antf such a system could not last. The Customs duties he thought altogether an I unjust and extravagant method of raising taxation. The preient system of taxation was unjust to the industrious class. The House should affirm this umnistakeably ; but if a twelvemonth was wanted to effect the change, he T*ould give it. Real property was already taxed. What was wanted was to get a personal property tax, which could only be done by a property and income tax. He strongly opposed the general taxation of the land revenue, unless there was one common price for all the land in the Colony. He also agreed that the Government showed & disposition to follow rather than lead, and a Government doing this was useless. They should make some stand, and have some principle of their own on this question. Like as on the Native Land Bill, they accepted the amendment, which enabled them to swallow the leek and keep their seats. It was said that Government last year laughed at the idea of doing away with the sinking fund, when he suggested it ; bat now they said it was wise. One event of the year had folly justified his predictions in Supply last session. It was absurd of Major Atkinson to say that a shilling in the pound tax would only yield L 130,000. He denied the statement that the industrial class only contributed 16a per head to the Customs. Every man, woman, and child was really taxed L 3 through Customs duties. He believed the country to be ripe for a change in the fiscal system. Let Ministers appeal to the country if they had any doubt of the feeling of the country. Mr Hodgldnsen doubted the sincerity of the Government in this amendment. He supported Sir G. Grey. Mr Hunter disputed the accuracy of Mr Rees's financial assertions. The balance in the Treasurer's hands on the Ist of July was a substantial reality. Mr Hees was unable to under- . stand figures. He thought Mr Atkinson's estimates of revenue last session proved remarkably ffccorate, there being only an apparent deficiency of L3OOO in the receipt. The Colony would not have to borrow five millions as alleged to meet liabilities. It was impossible to follow Mr Montgomery's figures, but when they were printed he would undertake to show ihem to be inaccurate. He was taking items to account twice over. The liabilities of last year were not liabilities of the present year till revoted. They could not be charged against both years. He was prepared to assert that the Financial Statement of the Colonial finance on 30th June was accurate. He would ask the working classes if a property tax were imposed would it not be fair for those who had to pay it to say, We must either employ much les3 labour or you most submit to a reduction of wage 3. A property tax should be levied by local bodies — not by the Colony. Property in this way would, as it ought to, be made to bear a fair share of the burthen of taxation. A land tax was most oppressive and unfair ; an income tax was much fairer. Mr Murray moved the adjournment of the debate. Th« House rose at 12.20 a.m. ♦ August 21st. In the Council the business was unimportant. __________ In the House this afternoon, The Hon. Major Atkinson, replying to Mr Cox, said Governmsnt would supply Road Boards with the New Zealand Gazette. A fnrther Imprest Supply Bill for L 250.000 was received by message from the Governor. Sir G. Grey objected to the House being taken by surprise. Under present circumstances, not more than 10 days' supply should be granted. Major Atkinson said supplies were absolutely required, and he regretted he had not informed the House earlier. A member objected to a quarter million Supply Bill being rushed through, without notice, at one sitting. The Hon. Mr Ormond said he could not name any particular amount due to day or tomorrow, but large payments for contracts all over the Colony were continually becoming due, and no payments could be made till further supply was granted. The Bill passed through all its stages up to I the third reading. On that Mr Rees moved it be read a tbird time to-morrow. This was negatived en the voices, and the Bill passed. In the resumed debate on Sir G. Grey's Incidence of Taxation Amendment, On the motion for going into Supply, Mr Murray eaid the question at issue was | not a new one. It was discussed on the hustings last election. It was only fair to throw a proper share of the public burthens on property improved by public works. The time had now come when further taxation was necessary. They could no longer live on Treasury Bills and land revenue. Financial legerdemain should cease. He thought the profits on the railways to a large extent were visionary, especially considering the light, unsubstantial, temporary character of the lines. There was a discrepancy between the statements of Major Atkinson and Mr Oriaond regarding the earnings of the railways. He approved of the leasing of the Auckland lines. The deficiency on railway* should fall on property, which had benefited in some cases to an enormous extent. It was most unfair to tax the general community through the Customs for this purpose. Ec moved — " That the word ' immediately* be struck out of Sir G. Grey'a amendment, and the words "next session' be inserted m lieu thereof."

The Hon. Mr Reid endeavoured to move the ei'.bstanco of the Government amendment read by Mr Boy/en on Friday as a previous amendment, but after a long discussion on points of order, The 3)>eaker ruled he could not do so. The Hn«. Mr Reid continued the debate. He dwelt or the largo matters involved which demanded careful, prudent, and temperate consideration. He defended the Government troia

Mr Pyke's charge of not leading the House. He could not do this if he had an Opposition bound together by no common principle, but anxious to snatch at anything to injure the Government. At present the precedent of their high model, the Imperial Parliament, really did not apply here. Members here were not so bound to party, and their greater individuality teaded to render real representative Government difficult. He denied Government in any way abandoned their position by professing their readiness to conaider the question of taxation next session, although they had not invited that consideration in the Budget for the present year. He defended the accuracy of Major Atkinson's estimates, and replied at length to Mr Stout in reference to the education reserves. Government must provide for the education of the youth of all parts of the Colony. He thought the Government proposal on the taxation question commended itself to the judgment and good sense of the House. Sir George Grey's motion must be considered in the light of his speech, which, despite being eloquent, was lamentably deficient in argument and policy, and would cause grave anxiety in some parts of ? the Colony. He combat ted the idea that small people would pay taxation cheerfully, because the payment would entitle them to lock to the State poorhouse in old age. The debate was interrupted by 5.30.