Monday, 17th July.

Otago Witness, Issue 1025, 22 July 1871, Page 9

Monday, 17th July.

OUlt EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM. On Ihe question being put that the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr HAUGHTON moved, "That tho Estimates for Education be reoonsiderod, in order to make provision for a subsidy to Roman Catholic Schools, in accordance with the several petitions of the Roman Catholic inhabitants of thiß province." H,q said, h§ dijd not move the motipn. with

an idea that he would be able to carry It as the present time, though he felt convinced that the day would come when such a motion would meet with the approbation of the Council. Petitions had been presented from nearly all parts of the province affirming that it was absolutely impossible that Catholics could allow their children to be educated in the Government schools under the present system. The petition which he had himself presented from tho Lake district was signed by 240 persons, and the other petitions were numerously signed. The question had been referred hy the Council for tLe consideration of a Select Committee, and as a member of that Committee he was bound to say that the matter had been treated by them in an intelligent, comprehensive, and fair spirit. It appeared, however, from the evidence, that the provisions of the Education Ordinance, 1804, as applied to the schools of the province, had not been strictly carried out, and the complaints of the petitioners therefore, in this respect, were founded on fact. In. many of the schools the education given was not practically of a secular character, but was carried out more in accordance with the religious views of the early settlers. He objected to the recommendation with which the Committee closed their report. They said: — "Your Committee are unable to recommend compliance with the prayer of the petitioners in the granting of separate support to Catholic denominational schools, the effect of which would be to increase the cost of the establishments, impair to some extent the efficiency of the schools, and open the door to the introduction of the denominational system, in subversion of that which has hitherto existed to the satisfaction and benefit of the country at large." Now it appeared that the Roman Catholics residing in the province formed one-tenth part of the population, and consequently they contributed one- tenth part of the revenue. Wan it therefore fair that they should be thrown upon their own resources to maintain their schools? He would like to refer specially to the oral evidence given by Dr Moran, who might be regarded as the exponent of the views of the petitioners. The questions put to y and the answers given by, Dr Moran,, were as follows :—: — What is the principle in the Ordinance antagonistic to Catholicism ? The principle is this : The education proposed to be given iB, ss far as o>itholics are concerned, a purely 3ecular education, Bach as all denominations might accept. The Catholic principle of education is this : Education is for a man's entire life here and hereafter; it should, therefore, *ie both religious and s^enlar ; and as the relifiious is the more important, and tho only one that can establish a real sanction for man's moral conduct, the secular should necessarily be built up upon the reujnoas,. and subordinated to it. The Church, therefore, deprecates the separation of these two as most atmalural, and injurious so society as wtjll aa religion. Will you explain the terns an ussd by you — *' secular," "mixed," and "Pi otestant denominational ?" — In the prerioua answer I explained what I meant by "secular." Mixed eduoatioa ia th;it which undertakes to educate children of different denominations without; interfering with the religion of any ; and tho Protestant denominational is that in whicn distinct Protest'mt denominationalism guides and pervades the system The Ordinance ia anti- Roman Catholic, because ir proposes to separate sc-cular from religious education^ and to authorise religious instruction independently of the authority of the Church. The rsading of the Bible by the teacher, ao provided by clause 40. and his explanation thereof, I consider is Protestant denomiuafcionalisin. Conceding that the purpose of the Legislature in framing this Bill, and the Education Board in administering it, has been to pro vide an education so divested of any sectaxiam principle aa to be universally applicable and acceptable to all classes of the community without reference to religious denominatioua —is it not putting your objection too strongly to say that the only real principle you cats find iv the B.U ia its antagonism to Catholicism?—No 1 think, not, bec;m3e (ho intention of the Legislature and adininis Orators ia not the law, ami, whilst I am free to admit the good intentions of both, I say tho Legislators have not realised their intouHoa/iu. the Ordinance itaeif. I must, therefore, regard the words of the Ordinance and not ita 'motives. I approve of a system that will be denominational in its chain cter, and do equal justice to all denominations. _ In view of the 'arg*> number of denominations existing, a,ve you of opinion that ifc would be pcnaible to provide effective meane of education throughout the country ? — Ye», I think so. It is done in Prussia, and might be done hero. 1 find in reference to thie' province in particular, from the public prints, that leading members of the several Protestant duuoininibtioHs aie either satisfied with' the proseut, or would be satisfied with th& I purely secular one ; this being the case, the community practioally resolVoa itsolf into two denomitiations—tho Roman Catholic on the one side, and all tho other de omiuatioua ou. tho other. What I would propose, therefore, is ehortly thi3 :— Recognise the claim of Catholio schools to aid wherever there is a sufficient number of scholars, an.d the cha*-

racfcer of the secular education satisfactory to the Inspector, and that there be an honest conscience clause obligatory in all schools. Would you propose to apply this system to the Grammar and High Schools, as well as to district schools ? — I have no objection, so loag as Roman Catholics have their own schools. Your requirement, therefore, would go to the demand for a complete separate system of Cathoiic education, including the higher education ?— lu would ultimately. You state that " Catholics need not apply for the situation of teacher under thi3 system." On what do you ground the statement?—lt has been reported to me that two Roman Catholic ladies presented themselves for examination, and, as was stated by the examiner, passed most creditably ; yet wh^n one applied for a situation in one of the Government schools, she was asked whit was her religion, and on replying "Catholic," she was to d that a Catholic would not be employed. These are the only cases lam aware of. Were you aware that a Roman Catholic teacher was lately employed at the Teviot School ? — I was. What books would you recommend in preference to those used ? — I would prefer the Irish National school-books, but I would only use, if I could get them, my own denominational books. I object to the present system, Ist, becauae of its principle ; 2nd, because of consequences that are inevitable in a community where the Protestant element is largely predominant ; 3rd, because in some of the details of its working it appears to me unnecessarily offensive and injurious to Roman Catholics ; I mean the use of school-books of which I complain, and the want of suiiicient protection for Catholic children duritg the time of religious education. I have no other charge to make, and I have not heard of any. In asking justice for the Catholics, who formed one tenth of the community, there was no desire to interfere with other denominations. The former merely required, out of the money raised for the purposes of education, sufficient to enable them to conduct their own schools in their own way ; because whatever acHon toight b« taken by the Council or the Assembly, Catholics could not avail themselves of the present system of public education, nor of any similar system. If it was desired that the system which existed in Otago should be perfect, then it should be amended bo that all sections of tha community could conscientiously allow their chiloren to be educated in the schools of the province. It was not for the Council to say whether the objectors were right or wrong ; petitions came before the Council from people who contributed to the public revenue, and therefore it became the duty of the Council to endeavcur to meet the difficulty by giving to Roman Catholics the assistance they now asked for. Those who asked for this assistance were not members of any obscure soct ; they were the members of that Church which it might be well for Scotchmen to recollect, founded in Scotland those ancient Universities of which they were so justly proud, and through whose influence arose that system of education which had made Scotland what it •was. It would come from the Council with a bad grace if they refused to grant to Roman Catholics the assistance which they asked for, and which they undoubtedly ought to receive. Mr HICKEI seconded Mr Haughton's motion. Mr CAftGTLL regretted that he could not see his way to support the motion of the honourable member for the Lakes, who had certainly placed the case before the House in a very fair and temperate manner. He did not know that any benefit would arise by much additional argument. All that could be said had beea previously said over and over again. The ques'ion was simply this, that a rather small section of the community in the matter of education had placed themselves at issue with all the other members of the Churches, and also with the rest of the population. The objections which had been made as to the working of tho present law had been carefully enquired into, and the Committee had found it impossible to recommend any change in the present system of educatijn iv any of its details, such as would make it acceptable to Roman Catholics. The Committee might eliminate from the present system matters of a religious tendency ; but, according to the evidence of Dr Moran the objections to the present ayßtem of education would remain as strong aa before. Their opinions appeared to be of such a character that they must have their schools presided over by their own religious instructor. That was an unfortunate position, but he did not see that that justified other sections conceding the whole case, and giving way to the minority by breaking down our whole system of education. There were Catholics on the School Committees, he believed, throughout the province. He did not see how the Council could abandon the position they had taken up in connection with the report of the Select Committee which they had adopted,

Dr WEBSTER did not share the disinclination of some honourable members to dial wiili this question. He thought it a most important subject ; and seeine that there was to be a measure brought before the General Assembly dealing with the education question, he thought it was very proper that they should enter upon its consideration. While he would not endeavour to subvert the present system of education — and was going to vote against this motion — yet he thought it was the duty of the Council to look into the matter, and see if there existed no just claim on the part of the Catholics. It was only fair that they should enquire in + o the matter, and try to device some scheme to meet the views of the Catholics. Mr REID was sure the mover did not expect the Government would assent to the motion before the House. When a matter was referred by the Council to a Select Committee, it was usual for its recommendations to be looked upon as some authority to guide the House in its deliberations. Notwithstanding that the mover of the motion was a member of that Committee, and notwithstanding that he assured the Council that the Committee entered upon the subject in an impartial manner, he now came forward and asked the Council to adopt a course antagonistic to the recommendations of that Committee. In reference to the question itself — v there were any grievances existing — if there were any text books in use which contained expressions offensive to the Catholics — for his own part he would be willing to seesuchbooks excluded from'he schools, and would try to m?et them to the fullest extent ; but to accede to the request now put forward to establish schools exclusively for the Roman Catholic children, would only result in breaking up their educational syetem. At the present time they were able to mai 'tain schools at a certain degree of efficiency, because nearly the entire population of the districts attend those schools, but if the schools were multiplied and the attendance reduced, the effect would be to lower the standard of the teachers ; and certainly such an educational system would be carried on at a greater cost. For his own part, he failed to see how the present request could be complied with, except by estaolishing a denominational Bystem, which he thought could not be agreed to by that Council. The Hon. Me HOLMES thought the province could not afford to establish a ('enominational system of education. Now that they had established a system of education which was equal to, if not better than, any existing in the colonies, it was their duty to see that there rcas no interference with that system. He would be 1 Borry if there was anything taught casting reflections upon any denomination. But after all the agitation of this question by the greatest minds of Great Britain, what was the conclusion that had been arrived at . ; The Education Board, established in London, appointed by the people, and representing three millions of people of all denominations, had recently come to the conclusion that a system precisely the same as that cf Otago, should be established for the whole population of London. He thought that fact redounded greatly to the credit of those who initiated the Otago system of education, [f they adopted the denominational system in any form, the educational system of the province would be desiroyed, because there would not be sufficient funds to maintain it. He thotight no argument which had been brought forward upon the motion, had the least value as against the system of education now in operation. He hoped there would be an almost unanimous vote against the motion. Mr HAUGHTON, in reply, said he only wished to say that while admitting the debate — Buch as it was — to have been ' conducted very temperately, yet a great de,d had beeT imported which had nothing to do with the motion. He had i not instituted a comparison of systems. ' He hud carefully avoided raising any ; such question. He had presented "to the Council the most numerously-signed peti- ' tion on this subject, and he stated the i case of the petitioners. He must say he 1 would have r een glad to have heard some i answer to his argument — which was an 1 argument for justice. It was simply a c logical proposition. There was a system I of education in existence in the province c costing a sum of 1,30,000, and in the \ province were some 7000 Catholics. For i reasons well-known to themselves — for t reasons which they acf'ed upon — the t Catholics are not able to avail themselves c of the public schools, to which they con- ( tribute 13000. They made out a case to a the Council to receive assistance towards 1 Bstablishing schools for themselves, without wishing to interfere with the system I" under which other denominations received t their education. The Council had to deal t with theße facts, and not with any theories, li He advocated the case of petitioners to the o number of 850— petitioners who almost s

• without exception were electors, and thi i constituents of members of that Council And those petitioners had not beei treated with the consideration which wa: their due, and no arguments had beei advanced against the justice of theii claim. The evidence showed— and th< public, when they read the evidence wou'd see — that they had made out i good case. If the Church of England oi the Wesleyana wished for schools of theii own, he would venture to say they woulc not be backward in asking the Council for assistance. But the Council hac only to deal with this mass of petitions, expressed in the most courteous language! not speaking of other denominations ir any disparaging way ; but simply aslant] for justice for themselves. He would say that notwithstanding all the talk about the freedom they enjoyed in this province —in this province alone they were perpetuating and carrying out, by the position they took up, a tyranny as vile as any tyranny described in the pages of those books of history which were objected to as not being in accordance with truth. When a large class ox the community could not take advantage of a system they were forced to pay for— he would say that it was tyranny to keep up such a state of things, when, by a simple arrangement, the views of the petitioners could be met. The motion was then put, and lost on a division by 23 against 4. The following is the division list :—: — Ayes.— Messrs Driver, Haughton (teller), flickey (teller), and Robertson. Noes. — Messrs Allan, Barr, Basstian, r Blacklock, Browne G. F. C, Cargill (teller), Clark, Cutten, Daniel, Green, Henderson, Holmes, Hutcheson, Lumsden, M ( Arthur, M'Kenzie, Reid, lleynolds (teller), Seaton, Smith, Thomson, Turnbull, and Webser. SUBSIDY TO ACCLIMATISATION SOCIETY. Mr ALLAN moved, " That an Address . be presented to His Honour the Superin- ( tendent, requesting that a sum be placed on the Estimates equal to LI to Ll on all ) amounts raised by private subscription, for the purpose of asaisting the Acclimatisation Society of Otago to the extent of ; L 200." , After a slight discussion the motion was carried, on a division, by 14 to 12. . FENCING ORDINANCE, 1867, AMENDMENT i BILL. On the motion of Dv WEBSTER, the above Bill was read a second time. SHEEP INSPECTOKS' ASSESSMENT BILL. Mr BATHG ATE, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it was brought before the House in consequence of a desire expressed on the part of the pastoral lessees to maintain at its usual strength the staff of inspection for preventing the spread of scab. They had I expressed their willingness to be assessed for such a sum as would maintain the staff at its former strength ; and this ordinance empowered the Superintendent to levy an assessment upon the pastoral tenants for that purpose. The Hon. Mr HOLMES opposed the Bill. If it were necessary to appoint additional inspectors, it was the business of the Government to pay those inspectors. He held the Government were coming with a Bide wind to levy an assessment over and above what was authorised by the Bill of 18G6. He held those additional inspectors were not necessary. The Government had power under the Bill in operation to appoint honorary inspectors which would be quite sufficient on the present occasion. Jf the Chief Inspector were earning his salary, instead of beirg in Dunedin he would he in the district lin _ ■which scab existed — namely in the neighbourhood of Lawrence. The late province of Southland had only one inspector for many years, and yet the resnlt had been that there was no scab in Southland for a long time past. If an equally vigilant inspector were placed in charge in Otago, he believed three men would be sufficient to overtake the work. But notwithstanding the large sums paid for salaries in Otas*o, the staff had been unable to eradicate scab. When the heavy assessment to be levied under the Act of 1806 was agreed to, it was on the distinct understanding' lhat it was to cover everything : and he did not think the Government were now justified, on the simple representations of a few persons, who either knew nothing of the question at issue, or who were not in a position to judge of the matter rightly in coming down and asking for an additional assessment. It was a positive breach of agreement, and he would oppose the Bill. If it passed that Council, he would toke measures in another place to prevent ita becoming law. & Mr REID denied what had been stated h y some honourable members to the effect that it was part of the Act referred to that no further assessment should be Levied on the pastoral tenants. The Act rf 1866, he said, had been made the 3capegoat for many delinquencies. He

also denied that the Government wished to commit a breach of any agreement ; (hey, in. fact, recognised agreements even if they were detrimental to themselves He explained that the Government had brought forward this Bill in consequence of the representations made by gentlemen who waited as a deputation upon the Government, and who were said to represent the pastoral tenants Those gentlemen pointed out that the discharge of the Inspectors might affect their interests very seriously and that the appointment of honorary Inspectors might be attended with area*, risk. After makius; other representations they meed that a Bill should be introduced, providing for this current year, inasmuch as the whole question had to be dealt with by the General Assembly Accordingly the Government consented to introduce a Bill to meet their views ; and whether it was passed or not there was not the slightest ground for the statement that the Government had committed a breach of agreement, or for the statement that the Government had taken the Council by surprise, for they had given such notice as they were enabled todo at this period of the session. It was the duty of the Government, in the face of the absolute representations made by the deputation, to protect sheepownera from the evils arising from disease. Mr BAjSTIAN moved that the words " upon the waste lands of the Crown," in the second clause, be omitted, thus making the clause to operate in respect to freehold as well as Crown lands. This was carried. Af rer some further remarks, the Bill was read a second time, reported with amendment, and its third reading made an Order of the Day for next day.