MONDAY, 12th JUNE.

Otago Witness, Volume 17, Issue 1020, 17 June 1871, Page 9

MONDAY, 12th JUNE.

DIVIBIOK ON THB HUNDREDS EBGULA.IIOK

On the Minutes being read, Mr M*KENZIE, member for Waihemo, drew attention to the fact that he was present and divided in favour of the Repeal of the Hundreds Regulation Acts 1869 and 1870. Several members having testified to Mr M'Kenzie's presence, and Mr Speaker finding the name not marked off by the tellers, the Council ordered the lists to be amended, making the division 31 to 7, instead of 30 to 7. The minutes, as amended, were confirmed.

IMMIGEATION.

Mr SHAND moved— "That an Address be presented to His Honour the Superintendent, requesting that he would recommend to the General Government that any immigration conducted under the Immigration and Public Works Act, 1870, will be conducted in a more satisfactory manner under the management of the Provincial Council ; and request that an equitable sum be placed at the disposal of the province for that purpose." In speaking to the motion, the honourable member said that ha thought the money for immigration would be much better expended if it were under the management of the provincial authorities In Otago, especially as they had very efficient agencies already established in Dunedin and in one or two of the cities of Great Britain.

Mr REID said the motion would receive the support of the Government. He had no doubt the large colonising schemes passed last session of Assembly could be carried out as well, if not better, by the Provincial Government as by the Colonial Government. This was especially the case in reference to the province of Ottgo, as they had a very effective system of immigration in operation since the commencement of the settlement ; and their agents in Great Britain were better able to select a suitable class of immigrants than any agent would be that the General Government might appoint. Mr M'GLASHAN said he thought the General Government were willing to cooperate with the Provincial authorities in carrying out that class of immigration most suitable to the province. He thought the motion a good one and would support it. The Hon Mr BELL said he had always looked upon the introduction of immigrants as the peculiar duty of Provincial institutions ; and he sympathised entirely with the objects the resolution had in view. But he was bound to say that he thought the policy adopted by the Assembly last session had struck at the root of the management of immigration by the Provincial authorities. He thought the Council would make a great mistake if it did not recognise this fact : that the carrying on of public works on any large scale throughout the country, by means of loans borrowed in England, would certainly fail of being sucoeßsfvl, and would entail immense burdens on the people of the colony, unless simultaneously with the execution of those public works means were taken to keep up a sufficient stream of people into the country. Just let them consider for a moment what the result would be if the loans which were being taken up in England were expended in provinces whioh refused to carry out to the same extent the immigration that the province of Otago would desire to carry out. The result of that would be to render the province of Otago liable for the Interest of the money expended in those provinces that might refuse to carry on immigration. While sympathising entirely with the principle that in the conduct of Immigration the desires of the Provincial Councils should be consulted, and the General Government guided almost entirely by the wishes of the Provincial Governments, providing those Provincial Governments did their duty, he did not think that the Assembly would give over to the Council the control of the Immigration, because they would not run the risk of one Provincial Council doing its duty -while another might not ; when both Councils would claim an equal share in the public expenditure. He did not think that the Assembly would give over the control of those Immigration schemes to the Provincial Councils.

Mr CUTTEN would support the resolution. He agreed with the remarks that had fallen from the Hon. Mr BelL He had no hesitation in saying that New Zealand was, at the present moment, playing the highest stakes imaginable. They were itftltixtg their fate upon rat cut, If thjf} Immigration »»d

Public Works scheme turned out a failure, it would utterly ruin New Zealand. Therefore he would throw no obstacle in the way of the General Government in giving that scheme a full and fair trial. The Government had already incurred a large expense in connection with public works ; and unlesß they at the same time made provision to settle population upon the lands, that scheme would be a failure. — (Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that unless immigration went on, their taxes and burdens would become so great in proportion to their numbers that they should not be able to pay them. It was therefore essential that there should he a colonial scheme of immigration. The great difficulty was, that the class of immigrants the Government was about to introduce would not meet the wants of the community. The immigrants the province wanted were agricultural labourers, and a large number of females. The female immigration was being absorbed month by month. For instance, during the last month, 30 marriages had taken place. — (Laughter.) Most of those females were taken /from the labour market ; and those who left the labour market in that way not only created a deficiency, but createe a demand for themselves : for every woman who got married became, to a certain extent, an employer of labour. They, therefore, must have some system of immigration going on simultaneously with the General Government scheme, to bring out whole families at a time.

The Hon. Mr HOLMES said he agreed to a great extent with the motion of Mr Shand. He believed the system adopted by Otago had been carried out mast successfully hitherto ; but he agreed with the Hon. Mr Bell that under the Immigration and Public Works Act, the Colo nial Government must have supreme control. He thought, therefore, it would simplify the matter very much if a suitable and trustworthy person were appointed by the Council to act in conjunction with the Colonial Agent, who would have the spending of any sums devoted to the purpose of emigration to Otago. He would therefore move an amendment to the effect " That this Council shall appoint an agent for the selection of immigrants for this province under the Public Works Act, and that the funds available under the said Act shall be expended under his immediate supervision, subject to the control of the Colonial Agent. ** The Hoa. Mr M'LEAN seconded the amendment.

Mr MERVYN, with a view to giving time for further consideration, moved, as another amendment, that the debate should be adjourned until the next day.

Mr DUNCAN would support the original resolution.

Mr HUTCHESON thought it would be useless to bring out people until the land lav/s were altered, and until that wan done he would object to the motion altogether. The amendments were then put and negatived. Mr THOMSON moved the previous question. He thought this important matter should" be taken up after the land resolutions were disposed of.

Mr REID failed to see what harm could be done if the motion were carried. He thought it was clear that if they were to wait until the land question were disposed of, they would not have any time to give an expression of opinion on the subject of immigration in time for next session of Assembly.

Mr Thomson's motion was put and lost, and the original motion carried on the voices.

LAND EESOLUTIONS.

Mr HUTCHESON said the resolution (No. 3) bore its own recommendation. If we wished immigrants to come to our shores and settle here, we should, in view of the competition of other colonies more favourable so far as inducements to intending settlers are concerned, offer more advantages than we have during past years. He felt satisfied that had proper facilities for bona fide settlement been given in the earlier days of the Goldfields, we as a community would have stood in a better position than we do now. This resolution, if carried into effect, would be the means of increasing settlement to a large extent. He felt convinced that it would also increase the amount of revenue accruing from land. The resolution should therefore have his support. Mr MERVYN said that from their having unanimously, or almost unanimously, agreed to the first resolution, he did not see there was any need for speaking separately on each, and afterwards speaking upon them when brought up in ■the form of a Bill. It was not the time, he thought, that the question should be dealt with in an exhaustive manner. He thought the system of deferred payments would materially aid settlement, and do , awsy .to a largt ext«nt with tfc* oxpwjdituw upon [mmifirfcticn, and.

that a large amount of comparatively valueless land would, at Ll per acre, be taken up under it. But he did not feel Mmß<?lf pledged to support any particular upset price fixed by the Government. Mr BATHGATE expressed Mb regret that hlB language and manner on the occasion of previously addressing them had been stronger than the temper of the House, and that he unfortunately gave some of his honourable friends offence. He might state that, whenever he felt very strongly upon any subject, that he was very i apt to express himself very strongly and i warmly. But he hoped that in doing so, he would not provoke the discussion of I any personal matters, and he had not the intention of doing so. They had the course the Assembly wa« likely to follow thrown in their teeth by more than one honourable member. He wished to show the impropriety of such a style of argument. The effect which that argument would have upon them as an independent body, if it were conceded to, -would be to stifle their liberty of speech. They should feel that they, as a deliberative body, ought to express their opinions freely and fairly. And he trusted that honourable members would not feel themselves debarred from speaking fairly and honestly on the ground that the Assembly by their doing so would not be pleased. He had also been told that when he went to the Assembly he should mix in better society than he had been accustomed to here. He would not boast of the society he mixed with here, but he might tell the honourable gentleman that told him that, that if the manners <sf the Assemby consisted in importing personal questions into public discussion, that it was a style of debate which he had never seen among gentlemen during the whole course of his life.— (Question.) He was justified in saying this through the honourable member having wandered away from the question, and through that being given as the style in which they did their business there, and of which his honourable friend, the member for Oamaru, had given them a specimen. "Whatever statements he (Mr Bathgate) -would make would be statements coming from the eleotoral body which he represented. He would dismiss that subject. Nemo me impune lacessit was his motto. The resolution before them for consideration was acted upon in spirit by every country calling out for settlement. It was adopted in America, a land within ten days' sail of Europe, which sent its thousands of immigrants upon American shores. Victoria also held out Bimilar liberal inducements. He read an extract from a New South Wales paper, being a resolution setting forth that to make the country attractive for settlement the right of free selection of 160 acres of Crown lands, on a system of deferred payments, is given. Now, when they found these countries so favourably circumstanced in that respect as compwed with themselves, they would surely be infatuated if they did not follow the example eet by them, and do their beßt to attract immigrants to these shores. Nor should they have the Assembly held up to them as a bugbear. Why that august body had laßt session passed for the province of Auckland an Act still more liberal than the resolution before them, and which actually gave 200 acres free to one family. 40 acres of land were by it given to each person, -with the proviso that the amounts granted to any one household did not in the aggregate exceed 200 acres. So there was in thiß very colony a land in its liberality far surpassing ourß. Now, he would put it to both sides of the House that with such a land law in existence in this colony, and with similar liberal measures in operation in the adjoining colonies and America, should they not look upon a liberal land law as a means of bringing people to settle here, and regard it in the light of a measure for the general good of the community ?

Mr SHEPHERD moved an amendment that the following be inserted after the words " purchase- money " in line 3 of the third resolution : — v That selection shall be permitted throughout the province within Hundreds, and within blocks thrown open from time to time within the goldfields, subject to the following conditions :—lst.: — Ist. That applicants shall have the power to select land to the extent of 320 acres throughout the province, B\ibject to the provisions of the existing Goldfields Acts and Regulations in force in reference to auriferous lands. 2nd. That upon selection a certificate shall issue to the applicant which shall authorise him to occupy such land for two years, subject to the condition that he shall fence and improve same, and put under crop not losb than one acre in ten, and pay the annual rent of two BhUlings and sixpence per acre ; such certificates not to be transferable. 3rd. That at the expiration of two years from the issue of the certificates, the holder of same having complied with the conditions contained in certificate under clause 2, •haU be entitled to purchase his allotment upon payment of Sfteen •hillings p»

acre, or to a lease of the same for the term of six yeara, subject to the payment of the same yearly rent of two shillings and sixpence an acre. 4th. That in the event of the holder of the allotment electing to take a lease, he Bhall be entitled to a Crown Grant at any time for same, upon paying the difference between the amount he shall have paid by way of rent, whether under certificate or lease, and the sum of 20s an acre. sth. That, upon the termination of such lease and performance of the covenants therein contained, the lessee shall be entitled to a Crown Grant without any further payment. 6th. That land shall be permanently set aside for commonages. 7th. That no selector shall hold at one time,

underlease or license, more than 320acreB."

He remarked that the amendment would encourage settlement, immigration, give credit to small capitalists, prevent blocks of land being taken up by mere speculative persons, and give protection to all parties, even to the runholders. He was opposed to taking their runs away from them merely for the Baku of creating a small race of squatters. — (Mr Reid j Hear.) He could not compliment the Government on the manner in which their resolutions had been drawn, and ha did not think the General Assembly would pass them in their present form. They proposed to charge settlers 30s per acre. Was that the way to encourage settlement, to raise the price when the best lands of the colony had been sold ? Mr REID pointed out that Mr Shepherd's amendment, or series of resolutions, were just a transcript of those already on the Order Paper, and said that if the honourable member considered the convenience of the Council he would eliminate those which did not refer to the particular question under discussion. The resolutions on the Order Paper were quite as intelligible as those with which the honourable member' had troubled the Council — (hear) — and which had occupied the attention of the honourable member during the last three or four days. He aloo thought that the Assembly were quite as likely to pass an Act founded upon the printed resolutions as they would an Act founded upon his amendment. There were many points in

the latter which would not meet with the Approbation of the Assembly ; and more especially that part referring to Commonage. He was as much in favour of settlers as settlement, but there was no occasion to go out of their way to throw sneers at, or obstacles in the way of, those parties already settled in the province. All the Government aimed at was to have a measure passed that would obtain the support of a large majority of the Council, wbich would be approved of by the General Assembly, and of advantage to the province, and which would not require to be altered for a long lime to come. The question of

price was a large one. Was there any probability that if land were offered at 20s on deferred payments they would sell land for cash payments at 20s ? The proposal that they should give land at 30s, extending over a period of ten years, would surely be liberal, a charge of five

per cent, only upon the first cost of the land. There were many persons prepared to take up land on deferred payments but could not do bo if they were compelled ta

make cash payments. Besides, they would not be subjected to competition, but by the system of cash payments the land might be run up to L 2 or perhapß L 3 per acre. Mr Shepherd's amendment was lost, and the original motion, namely, Mr Cutten'3 third land resolution, was carried. The following resolutions were then 1 put, and carried without discussion :—: —

" 4 That the extent of such holdings be limited to 320 acres by any one person, and shall not be transferable, except in the event of the death of the holder, and then only with the sanction of the Government. "5. That a license to occupy any quantity of land not exceeding 320 acres, may be granted to any person of 18 yeazs of age, not under any legal disability, except non-age, for three years on the following conditions :—: — " 6. That he shall occupy the land by residing thereon, within six months from the license being granted. " 7. That he shall enclose and plough one-tenth part of his holding within two years. "8. And shall within three years expend Ll per acre in improvements. On the 9th clause being read: — "On

compliance with the above conditions, the

| licensee shall be entitled to acquire the J freehold on payment of such a sum as,-

together with the fees alreedy paid, will make the purchase money Ll 10s per acre? or obtain a lease for seven years, at a rental of 3s per acre per annum/ Mr SHEPHERD moved as an amendment that the clause should read " the licensee shall be entitled to acquire the freehold on payment of auoh a sum aw, together with tJw foe* already )?*&, vi»

make the purchase money LI 6s per acre, or obtain a lease for seven yearß at a rental of 2s 6d per acre per annum."

On a division the original motion was carried, the numbers being :—Ayeß,: — Ayeß, 21 ; Noes, 7. The following clauses were then put and carried on the voices : —

"10. That all applicants for land on deferred payments shall, during the currency of their licenses, have the same rights of pasturage as the purchasers by immediate payment. "11. That any person who shall have taken up any smaller quantity of land, on deferred payment, may increase his holding to 320 acres at any time.

"12. The Superintendent, with the consent of the Executive Council, may from time to time proclaim districts or blocks of land, within which licenses to occupy on deferred payments may be granted, either exclusively or together with land open for sale by immediate payment, and may alter, amend, or revoke such proclamation."

At this stage, Mr OXJTTEN said he would propose that progress should be reported. As it was necessary that the remaining clauses should be fully discusßed, it would not be desirable in the then empty state of the House that they should be passed.

Mr Cutten's motion being put and carried, progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again.

INVEROARGILL ATHENAEUM BILL.

The above Bill was read a third time and pasaed.