PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Otago Witness, Issue 142, 4 February 1854, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, Jan. 31. The proceedings were opened in the usual manner, and the minutes of the former meeting read. Present — The whole of the Members. The Speakck read the order of business. Mr. Harms begged still to delay the introduction of the Bill on the subject of the administration of justice, of which he had given notice. Mr. Macandhew moved for permission to withdraw his Bill on Town Reserves. Permission granted. Mr. Macandrew moved for leave to lay a new Bill before the house on the same subject at the next sitting. Leave granted. Mr. Macandhew gave notice that at next sitting he would ask leave to bring in a Bill to prevent the spread of the diseases called Scab and Catarrh in sheep and lamb 9. Mr. Edward M'Glashan gave notice that he would at the next sitting submit a motion to the House on the subject of the Land Regulations. The Provincial Secretary laid on the table of the House the following correspondence on the subject of the Crown Lands :—: — "V 7. H. Cutten,,Esq\, M.P.C., ) Provincial Secretary. J Dunedin, 28th January 1854. Sir, — You will be pleased to lay^before the Council the following correspondence between the Superintendent and Commissioner of Crwn Lands of thi s Province in connection with the despatches which were laid on the table at the opening of the Council. These despatches are the authority on which twothirds of the General Revenue was placed at the disposal of the Provincial Government from Ist Oct. last ; and they also ordain the land administration of the Province to be in the hands of the Commissioner, — not altogether, but very nearly so, — beyond the control or supervision of the Government, whilst the money receipts of this department are so entirely at his disposal as to leave it more than doubtful whether any thing can accrue for the purposes of the Government in improving and peopling the colony. Si ill, however, information may be called for, and is directed to be given. And the Superintendent and colonists have some duties assigned to them in the matter, which make it imperative .to call for that information. Before the receipt of these despatches, three months of the period from which the regulations referred to were in being had elapsed. But the Collector of Customs lost no time in making the necessary returns, and payment into the Provincial Treasury : and the Sub-Treasurer also of the General Government used all diligence to the same end ; and though his accounts with, the Piovince—com-

plicated by the , three month^Sat^iad elapsed— are not yet perfectly adjusted, yet sufficiently so, together with those from the Collector of Customs, to have enabled the preparation of an Appropriation Bill, reserving, according to returns from the Commissioner, either a supplement to that appropriae tion, or such authentic exposition as should plaebeyond all doubt what the Government and the colonists had to expect until the . General Assembly shall have met. In this latter view, and also in regard to the duties referred to, the letter No. 1 was addressed to the Commissioner on the 16th inst. No notice having been taken of it, the letter No. 2 was written on the 26th ; but ere its delivery it was crossed on the way by the letter No. 3 from the Commissioner, dated the 19th, but 'not sent until the 26th, after his departure on the same morning, and of which departure or probable period of absence no notice was given.— l have the honor to be, &c. "VY. C argil*,, Superintendent. No. 1. \ Provincial Secretary's Office, Otago, 16th January 1854. Sir,— "With reference to the Circulars of the Civil Secretary, as per margin, his Honor the Superintendent requests you will have the goodness to furnish him with a Return of all Land Sales that have been made by Auction within the Province of Otago, with the dates thereof, and their upset prices. 2. Also with respect to lands external of the Otago Block which have been for a length of time in possession of the Crown— a return of any portions that may have been sold by you, specifying the locality, and the Reserves made or recommended for public purposes. 3. Also with respect to lands internal of the Otago Block— a Return of any portions that may have been sold by you, specifying in each case whether Town, Suburban, or Rural. 4. Also. a Return of the proceeds arising from the Rent of Crown, Lands, from the Fees on Crown Grants, from the Fees on Depasturage Licenses, together with head-money received or receivable under the same. 5. Also to inform his Honor with respect to lands recently acquired from the Natives, of the arrangements made or recommended to be made, for the disposal of them. And with respect to the whole Province, what portions of the land (if any) you may have recommended for proclamation as Hundreds or otherwise. 6. You are further requested to inform his Honor of the probable amount required for the ensuing year to meet the expenses of the Land Department, including surveys, &c. — I have the honor tobe, &c. "W\ H. Ctjttekt, Provincial Secretary.. Walter Mantell, Esq., ] Commissioner of Crown > Lands. ) No. 2. Provincial Secretary's Office, I January 26th 1854. Sir, — I am directed by his Honor the Superintendent respectfully to inform you that the information and returns requested from you by his Honor on the 16th inst., are necessary to the completion of Estimates for the current year, as required by the Provincial Council now in Session, and that for this reason more particularly his Honor has to" request the information referred to with the least possible delay. — I have the honor to be, &c, I W. H. Cutti:x, Provincial Secretary. Walter Mantell Esq. No. 3. (Communicated to Supeiintendent, 27th Jan. 1854.) Crown Land Office, Otago, 19th January, 1854. Sik, — I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 16th inst. In reply, I have the honor to inform you that his Honor the Superintendent is the only member of the Provincial Executive with whom I can communicate officially. — I have the honor to be, &c, Waxier Mantell, Commissioner. Mr. W. H. Cutten, Provincial Secretary. Mr. Macandrew moved the second reading of the Appropriation Kill. The Provincial SECBETARYhaving seconded the motion, Mr. Gillies rose and said, — As doubts had arisen as to the legality of the proceedings of the Governor in awarding the revenue to the Provincial Council, he thought it desirable that the Council, prior to going into the Estimates, should pass a resolution guarding against any appearance of sanctioning the proceedings of His Excellency. He therefore proposed the following resolution : — " That previous to making any appropriation of the Revenue of the Province, this Council Res6lve I that it is their opinion that, to prevent doubts which | have arisen as to the legality of the conduct of his | Excellency the Governor of New Zealand, especially as to the mode in which he has disposed of the Revenues of the Provinces, and for other good reasons, the General Assembly of New Zealand should have been convened, and at least the jjunianent distribution of the Revenue as well as the adoption of proper Regulations with regard to the Waste Lands of the Crown, should be regulated by that Assembly : And therefore this Council protest that any act or deed done, or to be done, by this Council with regard to the disposal of that portion of theRevenue placed in their hands by his Excellency the Governor, or with regard to any other matter or thing as to which they shall deem it expedient to legislate, shall not be held or construed into an approval of, or acquiescence in, any illegal act done* by the Governor." The motion having been seconded by Mr. Harris, The Provincial Secretary said that the motion would have the entire support of the members of the Executive. They agreed with the spirit of the resolution, but it being unexpectj edly proposed, they were not prepared to say

that its form was exactly what they might have | desired. The Executive contemplated the proposing a resolution on the subject ; but looking atthe temper of the Council, they deemed it advisable to avoid any subject that might lead to unnecessary discussion, and on which there might be a difference of opinion. As, however, the motion had come from the other side.the Executive would give it their most cordial support. The resolution having been put, and carried unanimously, Mr. Gillies said he did not rise to oppose the second reading of the Appropriation Bill, he was desirous of bringing the conduct of the Executive Council under the attention of the House, and of expressing his disapprobation of that conduct. He considered the course pursued by them subversive of the good feeling which ought to exist in the Provincial Council. Tb,ey had charged him with quibbling because he opposed their measures at the last 1 meeting when there had been a smart discussion on their conduct. He considered that they ought to defend themselves in that House ; but when he found that use had been made out of that House by the Executive of means, which the peculiar position of an individual member afforded, to advocate their views, and to bring the conduct of other members of the Council under discussion, he must express his disapprobation of such a proceeding. He considered they had no business to discuss the acts of the Council out of the House. What reason had they to say that they (the Opposition) were actuated by a desire to grasp at power, that they were encroaching upon the powers of the Executive, and to say that the Council as at present constituted could not work ? Such conduct was intolerable. He would ask who it was that grasped at political power and authority ? He must say, when he reviewed the conduct of the Executive in this matter, and the motive they had attributed to others, he could scarcely refrain from doubting the honesty of purpose which lodged in their own j breasts. They had said that the Council could not work harmoniously ; he considered the Council sufficiently united ; the harmony which the Executive sought was the unanimity of death. No free independent thinking member could support such a system. The Executive ■wished that whatever they proposed should be voted. Whatever hon. members might think right should be set aside, provided the Executive had settled it should be otherwise. It •was qliite clear to his mind that they (the Opposition) had taken up a position they had a distinct right to occupy, to force the i Executive to fill up an appoint ment created by i Ordinance. They had simply required that the law declaring that a Treasurer should be appointed should be enforced. The plan advocated by the Executive would hand over the affairs of the Province to a select committee, to the proceedings of which the members of that House were not to be admitted, but were to j vote as the Executive directed. He strongly objected to such a method of regulating that House. The proceeding of the Executive was not the way to treat the point lately under discussion : it was their duty to have explained to 'the Council why the appointment had not been made. He further complained that private feeling had been gone into : his name had been made use of. One of the Executive had said that the cause of his (Mr. Gillies') opposition to the Executive was because of his having been deprived of the office of Clerk to the Council. (Cries of " Name ! name !" from the Executive.) He declined to name. (Continued cries of " Name !") He considered such a course unadvisable. (Continued cries of " Name I") His object in not naming the person was, that he was anxious to avoid producing a feeling of irritation. (Cries of "No insinuations !" " Better name than insinuate !") The member he alluded to was Mr. Cutten. Mr. Gillies then went on to explain his object in accepting the appointment of Clerk to the Council, and declared that he was actuated by no such feeling as he stated had been imputed to him. He expressed himself strongly on the unfairness of the Executive out of the House. He would say as little on this subject as possible, wishing to see a spirit of unanimity in the Council. He concluded by complaining, that whilst hon. members had objected to an irresponsible government on former occasions, they now, as the Executive, were pursuing a course which he compared to the close borough system of the old country. Mr. Harris rose and said that it was necessary for him, having opposed the second reading of the Appropriation Bill at the last sitting of the House, to state why he would vote for proceeding with it to-day. He had, on the .former occasion, opposed its progress on the ground that the terms of the Executive Ordinance had not been complied with, and it would therefore be unwise to pass the Estimates under such circumstances. He was very glad to find that His Honor the Superintendent had at length appointed a Treasurer, and was now quite satisfied that the Bill should be proceeded with. He trusted that the Executive had seen their error in attempting to carry everything their own way, whether the Council approved of it or not ; and he suggested that it would be prudent not to repeat such expressions, of contempt of the opinions of the House as those ' used on a former occasion by one of the hon. members of the Executive (Mr. Macandrew he meant), as in such case the sooner the House passed a vote of no confidence the better. Mr. Reynolds agreed with the remarks of the last speaker. Mr. M'Glasahn would go a little further, and say, from the conduct of the Executive, he had no confidence in them, and was prepared to support a vote to that effect. The Provincial Secretary much regretted

that honourable gentlemen should think it necessary, instead of speaking on the business before the House, to take occasion to revive the . proceedings of a former sitting. He considered ! such a course highly objectionable : it would be perpetuating a debate, and be destructive of all progress in business. He had an equally strong objection to their discussing the proceedings of members out of the House. He thought the House had nothirg to do with such matters, and the, bringing them forward I would not conduce to the good feelings which Mr. Gillies expressed a desire should exist. He still further regretted that hon. gentlemen should listen to tittle-tattle out of the House and retail it in the House. What Mr. So-and-so had said of Mr. Somebody, which Mr. Some-one-else had repeated to another party, who had told it again, was a matter very unworthy of the consideration of that House, — it was indignifying, beneath their office, and indeed childish, in hon. members ; and, as usual in such-cases, the original statement was untrue. It was ridiculous to suppose that he (the Provincial Secretary) should have attributed any such motives to Mr. Gillies' opposition, when the Executive had publicly stated in that House that the offer of the appointment^ together with that of Clerk to the Bench of Magistrates, had been refused by that gentleman. He had not said what was attributed to him ; but if the hon. gentlemen were anxious to know what he had said of their motives for opposition, he would tell them. He had said that they desired to occupy the position of the Executive ; and he did not see 'any harm in such a motive — it was a laudable ambition, provided they did not impede public business. Mr. Harris said, if the remarks of the Provincial Secretary applied to him, he could only say that a seat in the Executive had been offered to him, which he had declined. The motion for the second reading of the Appropriation Bill having been put, was carried unanimously. The Bill having been read, the House went into Committee, Mr. Edward M'Glashan in the Chair. The preamble having been agreed to be taken last, clause 1 was agreed to. The Superintendent's salary was agreed to unanimously. The Secretary's salary was discussed. Mr. E. M'Glashan proposed to amend the ( bill by fixing a salary. Mr. Harris did not consider the ofHoe a necessary une; if, however, it were necessary he would propose to vote a salary. j Mr. Reynolds proposed to vote a salary : { he did not think the duty would be performed without one : lie understood it was the intention of the Executive to withdraw (he item of a salary of a clerk to the Ucparuuent, and he did not think, under such circumstances, they could expect the work to be performed. Mr. Macandrew suggested that there were ■ items for contingencies, out of which the Secre- | (ary might receive something. The Secretary said he could not approve of the last idea, that any officer was to be paid by pickings from contingencies or from other departments; such a system was quite erroneous. If the Council considered it absolutely neces- ! snry to pay a Secretary, they should vote a salary in a straightforward way. The office had been created more with a view to future proceedings of the Council than its present wants ; the main of the business was intended to be thrown on the Treasurer, whom it was proposed to pay; but that officer was not in the House, and the Secretaryship had been given to him that the persozi holding the office might be in the Executive, and necessarily in the House. No doubt they were right in principle in saying the office should be a paid one; and when the revenue increased, or they had funds at their disposal, which they might have from the payment of debt from the land department, then a new Appropriation ' Bill would be laid before them by the Executive. At present they (the Executive) wished to have funds at their disposal for public works, and he begged of the House to take the advice of the Executive in this matter, and let the item stand as they proposed. Mr. Gillies considered as the Executive did not call upon them to vote a salary, the House should adopt their views. Mr. Reynolds wished to ask the Secretary whether he would perform the duties of the ! office without salary ? The Provincial Secretary stated that, so long as he held the office, he would do his duty to the best of his ability, whether those services were paid for or not. | The original item was thereupon agrped to. The Provincial Treasurer's salary (item 3) was next discussed. Mr. Macandrew proposed to amend the Bill | by adding the sum of £50 to the item. He explained the views of the Executive. They proposed to strike out the three following items of clerks to the several departments, and dividing the amount (£100), placing £50 to the salary of the Treasurer, and to add £50 to the item " Legal Adviser," — making that department £100,— substituting •' Solicitor" for " Legal Adviser." These offices were to be combined, which would give £150, — a sum, he confessed, quite inadequate to the services to be performed, but as high as, in the present state of the revenue, could be afforded. | The item, as amended, having been seconded, was agreed to. On the motion of the Executive, items 4, 5, j and 6 (clerk to the several departments) were ! expunged. I Items 7' and 8 (Clerk to the Council and j I Clerk to the .Bench) were agreed to. Item 9, Harbour Department. Mr. Hakhis was desirous of having ;he appoinlI ment filled up, and a salary voted. He considered

j it necessary,- before the sum of £130 which he saw i in the Estimates for re-mooring buoys was expended, that there should be a harbour-master. There was a very fit and proper person, who could be appointed, to whom it would not be necessary to give more than £20. The Secretary said— With all deference to the opinion lately expressed by the Council on the subject of appointments, he considered the voting a salary and the expressing a desire to have a har-bour-master appointed was interfering with the duty of the Executive. They considered the appointment should be a nominal one only. Mr. Macandrew explained that the object in retaining the office was, that the law required the signature of a harbour-master in certain cases ; the office had always been a nominal one, and the Executive were desirous of avoiding any more appointments than were absolutely necessaiy. Mr. Gillies agreed with the Executive. He thought that if they did not ask for a salary to be voted, the Council should not interfere. He thought it would infringe upon the duty of the Executive in this case to compel an appointment. He drew a distinction between this office and that of Treasurer created by an Ordinance passed by themselves. The several sums under this department were then agreed to. Item 10, Poundkeeper. Mr. M'Glashan wished to know if the Executive intended to omit the office of Inspector of Slaughterhouses. He pointed out the evil arising from the duty of that office not having been properly discharged. He considered the office of Poundkeeper over-paid at £20, as he had nothing to do. The Executive having explained that, in their opinion, the holding of the two offices by the same person was incompatible, he must neglect either the one or the other, and that practically there had been J no Inspector of Slaughter-houses, and that £20 to a Poundkeeper-* was not too much, as it required his constant attendance, whether there was any thing -to do or not. Mr. M'Glashan considered the Inspector of Slaughter-houses the more necessary office of the two ; he proposed to divide the sum, giving £10 to each. It was ultimately agreed to, to insert " and Inspector of Slaughter-houses," and to leave it to the Executive to divide the offices if it were found convenient. Items 11 and 12 were passed. Item 13, Police and Constables, was agreed to, the i Secretary having explained that it was the intention ! of the Executive to do away with the present police force, to have a head officer and constables in the different districts with a small retaining fee, whose service would be paid for when required. i Item li was amended, the expense of the whole ' department being included in one sum under the head Survey, the Executive explaining, that although a Surveyor was appointed, he would recei\e no salary, but would be paid when his services were required. j The various other items were agreed to. j The Preamble was amended. The Chaiiirun having reported progress, notice | was given that the third lending would be mo\ed at j next sitting, aud the house adjourned.

Tiiursday/Flbhuary 2

The Council again met, and the minutes of last meeting having been read, | The Skciuitary stated that the Executive found that the office accommodation for the several depart- > ments was insufficient, and intimated that they had applied for an estimate of the probable expense of the contemplated addition, which would be laid bei fore the Council, and an application made for a grant of money to erect the necessary buildings. He read a note addressed to him by the Solicitor and Treasurer, representing the extreme inconvenience to the public from theie being no clerk to the dej partment. He stated that he would offer some I remarks on the subject of the communication when the third reading of the Appropriation Bill was moved. Mr. M'Glashan rose to^call the attention of the House to a subject on which, if it were necessary, he would give notice of motion ; he understood that the Justices of the Peace had not been furnished with copies of the Gazette. It was explained by the Executive that copies had been printed for the Justices, and had been sent to them ; they were not at the moment aware by what channel, but probably the Gazettes were lying at the Post-office. Mr. Maca.ndk.eyv moved for leave to bring in a Bill relating to the Town Reserves. The Secretary seconded the motion. Leave being granted the bill was read a first time and ordered to be read a third time that day three weeks. Leave having been granted, the Executive moved the first reading of the Scab Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to he read a second time that day month. j Mr. M'Glaskan rose to move the Resolutions of which he had given notice. The Secretary rose to speak to a point of order. He wished for the opinion of the House on the point whether it was competent for the House to entertain the motion, seeing that a motion to the same effect had been rejected by the House at a former sitting. He did not wish to throw the motion over, as there was much in the proposed resolutions with which he could agree ; but as he had an amendment to propose, which would infringe upon the rule, as it embodied a portion of another rejected motion, he desired the opinion of the House, that a technical objection might not be taken to his amendment. The Speaker decided that the motion could not be put without the consent of the whole House. The consent of the House having been obtained, Mr. M'Glashan rose and said: — " Mr. Speaker, — In bringing forward the motion of which I gave notice at last sitting of Council, I shall endeavour not to, intrench on your time by an)' lengthenep tateraenta in favour of those resolutions, as its ap-

pears quite obvious that some change must be made with regard to the regulations affecting the sale of land in the Province of Otago, although members of Council may differ in opinion as to what should be the price and mode of sale adopted. Taking this view of the question, therefore, I have so framed the resolutions as to meet the views of the Council, although, for my own part, I should wish to see the Government Regulations of His Excellency the Governor carried out in their fullest extent. " To my mind it appears clear that the idea of maintaining the present regulations within the Block must be given up, and, if not, I consider a gross injustice and injury will be inflicted upon this part of the settlement, believing, as I do, that the maintenance of the present regulations will have the effect of driving intending settlers to distant parts of the Province, thereby occasioning a larger administrative expenditure, if it has not the more serious effect of deterring them settling amongst us at all, and thus retarding the progress of this extensive Province ; for it surely cannot be expected that you will find purchasers to buy land, when it can be had in the Northern Provinces at a less price, where a finer climate for the rearing of crops may be expected, other advantages being equal. In the Northern Island we have been told what the reduction in the price of land has already effected. In Auckland we are assured it has given an immense impetus to cultivation, and a large sum has been derived from the sale of land, creating a fund for immigration and local improvements. I am credibly informed that numbers, disappointed with Australia, — including a number of our Highland countrymen from New Brunswick, — have re-emigrated to the Northern Island, the main element for preferring it to the Southern Island being the lower price of land. In proof of this fact, it is stated that placards have been posted, both in Melbourne and Sydney, stating that land was to be had in Auckland and Wellington i at 10s. per acre, in Otago at £2, and Canterbury £3 — jthus operating prejudicially to this and the neighbouring settlement. " It is alleged that the reducing of the price of I land will leave no fund for local improvements. i Now, I maintain an opposite view. Has the high price hitherto sold the lands within the Block ? Has it created a fund for either of these purposes ? Quite the contrary, for the sale of it during the last three years has been almost nil. " It has been also stated, that to reduce the price of land without giving compensation to oiiginal ' purchasers would be unfair; and one of the Execu- ! tive did propose at a public meeting such a measure, but left us in the dark as to what he would adopt. He forgot to tell us where the compensation was to come fiom. Did he expect that the New Zealand 1 Company would disgorge the ponies mis-spent by I them on surveys and other objects ? or does he ex- | pect that the Church Trustees will denude them1 selves of their unavailable properties ? This gentleI man and his supporters surely cannot suppose that Government would be such- fiats as to give compenj sation, seeing that 10s. per acre was the real price of ! land, and that the other 30s, was devoted to other I objects, — amongst these, eraigratioii, — and out of which fund many who cry for compensation received their full share in shape of drawback for their pas-sage-money. " The compensation we can only expect, and what I should desire to see, is what would be dei rived from an increasing immigration and an ex- ( j-andiug revenue : and it is only by taking this burden oiT the land that we can expect such. " Inthenome country it has become an axiom, that i if you take the taxes off any commodity in general i use, the consumption and sale of the article is cer- ' tain to be increased; and the same rule holds good Jin respect to social economics. Witness the Post I Office. Such being the fact, let us apply these, enlightened ilews to our present case, and I have no 1 fear of the result. As a natural consequence, if we I can induce immigration, more land will be sold and more cultivated, and the general revenue thereby increased, creating funds for immigration and local ■'improvements. With these observations I nuvv J move the following resolutions :—: — " That under the existing regulations for the sale of land within the Province of Otago, including the Otago Block, a grievous injury is being done to the • Settlement, and a retardation of its progress occasioned by tl}.e conflicting and complicated regulation:, therein — and more particularly in connection with the high price of land within the Block. It is the opinion of this Council that the same regulations for the sale of land should operate within and without the Otago Block ; and without signifying any opinion as to whether the Council do entirely approve of the Government Regulations, they are most anxious that the administration of the Waste Lands of the Province should be in the hands of the ■ Provincial Council, subject nevertheless to such general control as the General Assembly might deem it necessary to exercise, in order that there may not be any conSicting interests involved. " That the following members be appointed a committee to prepare a petition, in terms of the above ; resolution, for presentation to the General Assembly, or in the event of the Assembly not being convened, to Ms Excellency the Governor, ot other officer representing the Governor for the time being, ■ piaying that immediate proceedings be taken to carry out the objects of the above resolution: — Messrs. Harris, Gillies, and M'Gkshan; Mr. M'Glashan, Convener. Mr. Harris said, in rising to second the resolution, he could not agree with the remarks of the mover. He held that land at £2 and £3 per acre was too high, whilst land within 10 minutes walk of Dunedin was being sold at lOs. He was not prepared to go the extent of saying that the whole lands of the Province should be sold as low as 10s. He believed that the reduction of piice would give a a larger amount of funds by inducing purchases, which would give a considerable surplus for immigration. ( The remainder of Council proceedings in our next.) [The Town Reserves Bill on the following page was printed before we received notice of its withdrawal.]

(From the Provincial Government Gazette, Feb. 4.)