CHALMERS CHURCH.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 16007, 25 February 1914, Page 3

CHALMERS CHURCH.

JAMISON v. DEACONS' COURT.

THE CASE FOR THE DEFENCE,

In the Supreme Court yesterday, before Mr Justice Sim, the hearing was resumed of the case in which John Jamison tusked for the removal oi iho trustees of the Chalmers Presbyterian Church in York place, Duncdin. Mr W. L. Mooro, with Mr J. B. Callan, appeared for the pUiintiil, John Jamison; Mr W. 0. for the defendants, the trustees of the church. Mr MacUregor called evidence for the defence. . . , James A. Thomson, divinity student, eaid he had been connected with Chulniore Church for 12 years. Mr David Thomson, already mentioned in the case, was his uncle, it was not a fact that Mr Thomson sym pathised with Mr Jani.son in hie action. When the Rev. Mr Maelennan was in charge of tho church iu 1907 a change of posture took ptaoo, and some of the congregation etood m singing and remained sitting during prayer, but even betore that some people had been in the habit of sitting during prayer. Witness was at outs time u deacon in the church. It was not the Deacoue' Court that brought about the now departure in 1907. Mr MacGregor: Do you know whether the majority ol the deacons approved of if: —Witness: From my own knowledge oi the men who formed tho Deacons' Court i suouJd eay the majority did not approve of *it. Was tho minister, Mr Maelennan, in favour of it? — Yta, tho minister approved oi it. And the majority of the congregation?— Yes, the majority of tho congregation appeared to approve of it Further examined: la August, 1911, the congregation, with tho exception of one man returned to thio original posture ol Bitting during singing and standing during prayer. The exception was Mr Ross. Speaking of the financial position of the congregation, witness said the congregation had not been in a position since I9uß to support a pastor. Mr Ma.elon.uan was continually telling the Deacons' Court that ho found it difficult to make both ends meet on the stipend he was receiving. He had found it necessary to drop life insurance to meet bis ends. That was the principal reason why Mr Maelennan left the church. Witnese was away from Dunedm lroni 1908 to 1.910. On his return ho found the finances of the church very low, and syon afterwards the church became dependent on free supply. The linaneee gradually went down, and the question of what should be done with tho church was causing concern. After Mr Jamison's coniinimitations oommenotd several persons left the church, and a number of the members of the Deacons' Court resigned.

Mr MacGregor: From your knowledge of the financial position of the congregation, wae it necessary to close down in July, 1912?— Yea.

Wae there any other course you could adopt?— There was no other course open.

In what you were doing you were acting according to lcgaJ advice? —Yes.

What was your opinion as to the congregation carrying on? —My opinion was that the congregation, by withholding subscriptions, had declared itself unable to continue'. To Mr Moore: Chalniers Church, was still carrying on, and a minister wae preaching there regularly, but he had not been inducted yet. The Rev. Mr Ross was the minister. He started last year, about the end of October.

Mr Moore: The Deacons' Court did not want to close down Chalmers Church? They merely wanted to carry on under different conditions? —I was willing to eee tlio church carried on, as I believed it would grow.

Hi 6 Honor: Have you instrumental music and human-made hymns in the church? — Yes.

His Honor: You have got rid of the old restrictions?— Yes, that is eo.

Mr Moore: If the church had not received Mr Jamison's letters, would it still have carried on V—Prior to the time of receiving the letters there was a einaJ number of people who were working faithfully. Possibjy they might have revived the enureh. 'lJie Kev. l. K. M'lrityre, in charge of St. Stephen's Ohurch, iSorth Duncdin, was the next witness. He said he wiis appointed Moderator oi Chalmers Church iu 1900, when the Rev. Mx Fraser leit the church. He also acted as moderator at subsequent times, when there were vacancies in Uie charge. The Rev. Mr Sutherland was tl'.e moderator «ow. Members oi the church reigned when Mr Eraser leit, and otners resigned when Mr Spence leit. There was a considerable exodus —100—when Mr Maclennan left. Tre church hod been gradually arriving at a vanishing pouit. ile objected to tne chango ul posture in the church, as it would give otiuico to tiie o:der members ol the congregation, and he did not think the change so important as to risk that.

"In the Presbyterian Church in Scotland and Ireland," continued the witness, "in my childhood days, and belore that, the rule was to stand in prayer and to sit in praise. In my studtiit days in Scotland the major.ty stood to sing, and sat in prayer, but it wus not obligatory. In the .uignlands the oid customs remained longer Ine matter, however, was never brought belore the Church as a point of doctrine."

Mr MacGregor: is there anj law of the Church on the subject'/—.Not that 1 am aware of.

And congregatiens and individual members of congregations have the right to choose for themselves in regard to posture? —They have been allowed to exerc.se ttat right, certainiy.

J. he theological thaw took longer to set in in Chalmers Church than in any other part oi the world?—fc'es.

I suppose, even in the remote Highlands of Scotland, it would be dithcuit to iind a. congregation that has kept to the old metnod '! —liven hi my time it was diihcuit to find a congregation there coniornui.g to the old custom. 1 left Scotland in lciba.

Do you think that on or before July, ibtlis, the congregation had become "unwi.iing or unable to continue religious ordinances if- — For years it wus evident to me, and to others, also, that Chalmers Cuurch w.is doomed; but the little congregation was very earnest, and wished to msUio every etiort to continue, and 1 exerciseo the very greatest patience with them, as i had a great amount of sympathy with them. From time to time the question came up as to what they were to no. in 19Ua 1 arranged for free supply ior six montns, and tnen I could not possibly conuuue that. The session then undertook it.

When the circular was sent out to members ot the chuich in Juno, 1909, lhe elmreh was trembling in the balance, iinaneia.iy'.'— Yes, and an effort was made to rt.ar.eve tuo position, but it was not bucctsslul. 1 have no doubt it would have gone on a little longer, but 1 don't know tiutt it wou.d have succeeded if it had not been for Mr Jamison's interference. That took the heart out of the congregation, and the result was that several ouiex-oeaiers and members leit. It was the last straw.

During the penod alter Mr Madcnnan left, was the congi'egatioii carrying on the ordinances of religion in terms of trie deid? —After Mr Jamison had setfit us h.s letter I looked more especially into the terms of the deed of conveyance, and it struck me that we were peipotr.iting a more serious breach of that detd than was involved in the, posture fit prayer mid pra.se. It sconnd to mo that that deed makes it incumbent, on the Deacons' Court to see to it that a duly ordained and kiductid minister should have charge of the pulpit, holding the doctrines of the Confession of Faith, and so on, and I thought that if some other member, who was more interested in doctrine than in form, should bakn us to task for that, we would be in a morn unenviable position than wo are now. Wo had only Kiich supply as wo could gut. We had Presbyterian elders, Congregational deacons, Wesleyan Lay-preachers, and one or two Plymouth Brethren. After a time- I looked on this very seriously.,. I thought wo were sailing very ne;ir the wind indeed. Was there any result of r.hLs ■ xtraordinary mixture of doctrine?— Well, Chaimes's Church could stand a good deal.—(Laughtor.)

Witness continued: Apart from tlio financial aepect he did not think it was right that thn church should s*o on in violation of thp deed. Up to 1911 he harl seriously considering whether the clniroh should continue or wlvthrr it should cr>nsr>.

The effect of Mr Jamison's conduct on the congregation, firmnrially and othnrwisc, wfis more than it conlrl boar. The door? of the church wore closncj in July, 1912. Tt h;id been almost impossible to seeure Jreo sunoly.

and the church could not afford to pay for supply. The finding to close was arrived it unanimously. The witness added that, in the matter of posture, his experience at Home «; chiefly confined to the life of the Presby terian Church. The Free Church in th Highlands was more conservative. To Mr Callan: When he asked the congregation to revert to the old custom Mr itoss intimated that he . would tako no notice of witness's request, and thereby incurred the deep displcasuro of the Deacons' Court. When ho perused the titledeed he found that if ho obeyed the civil law ho was up against the ecclesiastical law. As he understood the rxisition, he should have excommunicated Mr Ross, and he could not do that, nor refuse to allow Mr Ross to vote, because his name was on the communion roll. It was an awkward posi tion for a moderator to bo in. What he did was to let things stand, without attempting to interpret the doubtful clauses of the deed. Witness never heard that au offer was made by Mr Jam'son to pay the mortgage money on the church. Malcolm Matheson, who was connected with Chalmers Church for some years, spoke of the financial position of the church. Norman M'Donald, a member of Chalmers Church for 12 years, also gave evidence The Rev. Mr Sutherland, of Kaikorai and moderator of the present Chalmers Church, said that in recent years it was a matter of general knowledge among those specially interested in the congregation that it was gradually, but surely, going down. For months and months before the church actually closed everybody who knew the position recognised that it could not fro on financially. It was having all sorts of supply—anything it could get for nothing— and that was not satisfactory to the Presbytery, to the church, or to the congregation. The congregation was not in a position financially to support a minister, to pay for students, or to have the ordinary Presbyterian supply. The congregation had become unabln to maintain the. ordinances of religion. There was no law in the ProsbyWian Church on the subject of posture, and individuals had a perfect right to do as they saw fit in the matter. This closed the -case for the defence.

The caso will be resumed this morning at 10.30.o,p'clock, when the legal argument will be taken.