THE ALLEGED CASES OF DUMMYISM.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 6591, 30 March 1883, Page 2

THE ALLEGED CASES OF DUMMYISM.

At a meeting of the Land Board yesterday Mr R. B. Martin's report on the recent sales of deferred-payment pastoral lands (published

in full in our last issue) was taken into con-

sideration. When the matter came up the following members were present :—Tbo Chief Commissioner (Air J. P. Maitland), Messrs CJark, Green, and Stout. The Chief Conmissioxeh : I snail read the cases specially mentioned in Mr Martin's report. They are as follow :—

Scctkn 1, block X, Strath-Taieri, 3889 alr 4p: sola at 30a per acre ta Philip Young, farmer, Clarence Plains, Tasmania - Purchastd by E. B. Cartiil, as agent for Phi<ip Young, and paid for by cheque drawn by British and Kew Zealand Agency Company (Limiltd). Declaration handed iv by buyer. la reply to the usual questions put by ilr Harlow, salesman, us to the postal address and occupation, tbe embarrassment and apparent ignorance of-the purchaser attracted my attention, i therefore put the following questions to him: -How long have jou been hero ? When did you arrive ? Have you ever ssen or been on tbo country ? The answera wero: " I arrived

a few d&YB ago, and havo not seen (he country "; and ho could only give Hobart Town as Mb address. Section 3, block XI, Strath-Taieri, lS66a lr 20p; ► o!d at 31s 3d per aero to William Vounjr, fanner, < larcnce Plains, Tasmania.—Purchased by E. B. Cargill, as a|(ent for William Young, and pai-1 by cheque of British and New Zealand Agency Coinpany(ljlmited). IJtelara'ion produced by purchaser. I observed a similar o >nvereation and embarrassment between tho buyer and Mr Harlow.

Section 3, block XII!, Strath-Taierl, 137Ja Or 88p; bo'J at £110 a per acre to H illlam Free, farmer, Duo. ediu.- Purcha ccl by E. B Cirgill, aa agent for William Free, and patl by cheque of British and New Zealand Anetlcy Company (Lim'ted). Declaration handed in by purchaser after some dultiy. I believe

ihat this was tho man who was either as/cep or guoraii' as to the necessity of handing; in his declare ;ion, and bad to be stirred up.

Mr Stout : What is tho meaning of tho words " had to be stirred up" ? Mr Maktin : He was either asleep or did not understand what he had to do. It waa

leeessary to stir him up with a long pole. Mr Clark : Did you say you stirred him up ,'ith a long pole ? Mr Martin : I did not write that.

The Chick Commissioner : Any amount of peoplo buy land at deferred-payment sales without ever having seen the land. Mv Stout : I think, before issuing the licenses, Mr Cargill, the agent, should be asked to state who instructed him, and if he saw the men before the sale, or if he suggested to them the special sections of land. X have no doubt that Mr Cargill, from his position in the community, and the position he has always held, will be willing to lurnish this information. The Chief Commissioner : The notes in red

ink written upon the face of this report are taken as part of Mr Martin's report, but thoy are written by Mr Harlow.

Mr Martin : They were written from my dictation.

Mr Green: There is another case here I would like to sco dealt with. It is that of a rabbiter, who has purchased 1450 acres at Strath-Tuieri.

The Chief Comjiissionkh : There is nothing specially reported in thnt case. We aro only going on Mr Martin's report. . Mr Stout : We can go on what we like. The Chikp Commissioner : In this list of purchasers there are labourers, farmers, rabbitoi's, widows—all sorts of people. Mr Cl.mik : I am glad to see that so many of those people have Bulllcient cash la. buy thcte sections. ... . Mr Gbee:; : Cf course this is a system under which wo hope that men of small means will acquire property. I should bo glad to fiod.

that everything Is right, and that labourers and rabbitors are gotting on bo woll. Mr Martin : Thore was a letter in tins Star last night from one of the purchasers. He id a luiia.tiiic man. lie takes it upon himself to say that ho is indicated aa one of the " duminios." His nauio is Williamson, and he is a shepherd, Mr Clark : Wo know that many shepherds and labouring men aro quite competent to tako up these socti'ms. Tho Chikk Commissioner : It is a vory hard case if wo havo to inquire into tho private arrangements of every purchasor. Mr Stout : I think it is our duty. The ( HiKb' Commissioner: I do'not see that at all. I quite disagree with you. Mr Stout : I '..hiuk wo ought to havo somo information, and will move—"That before issuing the licenses to tho purchasers of sections I and 3, block XI, and section 3, block XIII, Strath-Taieri district, the Chief Commissioner be requested to ask Mr Cargill. who acted as agent for tho purchasers, the following questions :—(1) Wero you directly instructed by the purchasers to bid for tho land, and, if not by them, by whom ? (2) When were you instructed ? (3) Did they pay you or your Company tho deposit, and if so, when? (I) Are you aware of any agreement of any kind between the purchasers and any othor persons in reference to tho land bid for?' 1 have, no doubt that Mr Cargill, from tho position he has always held, and I beliovo always rightly held, in tho community, will be only too glad to havo this matter cleared up._ It is not satisfactory to tho Board, and it cannot be satisfactory to him, to have any slur cast on the persons acting as purchasers, and for whom he acted as agent; and I have no doubt ho will bo only too glad to give any explanation the Board may ask. It is with that view I move the resolution. Of

course the Board has nothing to do with out side rumour or talk, but when the matter has got into such a chronic state of excitement it is the duty of the Board to sco that everything is straight and in compliance with the terms of the Act. If the Board has any suspicion, it is tho duty of the Board to conserve the public interests by making inquiry. It is true wo have no power to appoint a commission to examine witnesses; but I think tho questions I havo put will.be useful. I have no doubt that members of the Board, knowing Mr Cargill, will be of opinion that ho will bo only too glad to give the information asked. Mr Clakk : I do not care myself, but I do not see why we should interfere in this way. Mr Stout: It is our ditty under the Act. Mr Clark : Why should, we come on those men more than others ? Mr Stoct, : Because there is a special report on these cases. The Chief Commissionee.: What does tho special report say ? Only that the men had not seen the land. Mr Stout : They did not know what they were buying. Mr Clark : Could not I go to you as a third party and request you to buy a section in my name ? That is the case here. Mr Stodt : That is not the case hero. I do not assume that. I want to know it. Mr Clark : Is it not stated in the report that Mr Cargill was their agent ? Mr Stodt : Wo will only bo giving Mr Cargill an opportunity to explain. Mr Cf ahk : Mr Cargill will look upon this as very impertinent, I think. Mr Stout : Well, if he says so, it will then be for tbo Board to say what steps wo will take. We are not compelled to grant a license to anyone who has not complied with the Act. Mr Clark : You lire making an assumption now.

Mr Stoct: I say it ia our duty in administering the Act to see that thia matter is cleared up. Wo will not bo asking Mr Cargill any prying- questions further than to see that the Act has been complied with. lam suro that if Mr Cargill were a member of tho Board he would bo even more stringent. On the other hand, I do not see why ho should not aid us as a public body in administering the law.

Mr Olauk : Why sliould not a wan come from Tasmania and purchase one of those blocks ? Mr Stout : I do not say there is anything wroDg in it. That is what' I want to find out. If I were sure that there wag dummyisin, i would not move this resolution. I woufd move under section 85 to refuse to issue the licenses, and leave them to take thp!r>«w-fi«*»^. The Ciukf C«^M^Pfv-.'-;^: ; r..-7>,,.i-o bound by *!>^^;-!*'>C;j->..-;i'iv-'-;:-::'':1-?'':.'-:V^ made, t*^,-;V., 'I'^-^Svi <-'".y-"'.'-. "-O ■:'■- \'s > jNL/' '■''■'■'■■■ ■■'■/'-"■ *'r.'-':tii'.^ •./•'■ ■"■''•'-':'"■■'•'■'■":!'''''■;. ■:£• made a declar'a«**S^s^Si«»«i^^^ that he waa 18 years old, would it be'saiS' for a moment that we were bound to give him a license because ho presented Such a declara tion?

The Chikv Commissioner : I do not think it is an analogous case. Mr Stout : The analogy is this : we know the declaration is false, therefore we decline to issue a licenso.

The Chiei' Cojdiissioneh : There is this broad distinction: on the face of it there would be, in the case you mention, a false declaration. Let us carry it to an extremity, and suppose that a boy eight years old made a declaration that he was 18 years of age. That would be plainly false on the face of the declaration

_ Mr Stout : Not on the face of the declaration—on the faca of the boy. The Chief Commissioner : Well, on the faco of the boy. In the case now before us there is this distinction: that there has been a complete compliance with the requirements of the Act.

Mr Stout : So there would be in the other. We want to find out if this declaration is true. What I say is this: that you are not bound to issue a license. A 13-year-old boy might comply with the Act bo far as to furnish a declaration, but if the Board know the declaration to be false they would cot stand by and see the law prostituted by such means. Therefore I say that if I thought there was a fraud on tho Act, even if a declaration were produced, I would say, Do not issue a license. It is because I do not know whether or not a fraud has been perpetrated that I want to put these questions. If you knew these men were dummies you would not issue licenses. The Chief Commissioner : That is, if we had ample evidence of a false declaration.

Mr Stout: Exactly. We would then refase to issue a license. In this case I want to get information. Mr Clark: No one could be more against dummyism than I am; but I do not see sufficient to justify us in taking1 the action proposed. The Chief Commissioner : My idea is that the general principle that should guide us in the sale of Crown lands is that where, as far as we can see, there has been compliance with all the requirements of the Act—where a declaration has been made and a deposit paid—we have no right to step in and make inquiries as to the private business arrangements of the purchasers. . You might imagine the most disagreeable questions being put to purchasers. You might say to a bona fide purchaser: "We will not issue a license to you until you tell us where you get your money from." Mr Stout : What is there disagreeable about saying, "I have had to borrow the money " ?

The C'-fiEK Co.Mjrissio.VKU: That is where I take issue with yon. Mr Gbezn : I do not know that it is desirable to go into these side-issues. I entertain the same feeling as Mr Clark, but I (jo a little further than he does,. I think, myself, it is our duty a3 a Board, as far as we possibly can, to prevent dummies getting the land ; because I believe that if the dummies are once in possession it will be very much more difficult indeed for us to get them out again than it would be to prevent them from getting a footing. When Mr Stout first suggested to mo the course he thought desirable, I did not think it was a judicious one, for the Bimple reason that Mr Cargillhas the power of declining to answer those questions.

The Chief Commissioner : And in the event of Mr Cargill declining to answer 1

Mr Greict : I have put that question to Mr Stout, and he has satisfied me that it would be undesirable nut to giye a respectable citizen, and a gentleman holding the position that Mr Cargill has held, and still holds, in tho eKtimation of his fellow citizens, an opportunity of answering these very fair questions before other action is taken. My own opinion is that from the rumours afloat in connection with the last sale, taken in conjunction with rumours that have been afloat for a considerable length of time in reference to other de-ferred-payment holders, there can bo no doubt that the general impression is that bona Jicle settlement under this system is the exception,' not the rulo. The general opinion in the country is that the land disposed of under this system has not been occupied in accordance with the Act and in the best interests of settlement. Whether that be the case or not, Ido not know. Now there are suspicious circumstances connected with this last salo; the Press of this town has taken the matter up: the general public, I have no hesitation in saying, are taking more interest in this question than thoy have in any other matter tnat has been btought under notice for many years, if not ever, iv connection with the land. Now if things aro all right and proper, if tho Act has been complied with, and there is a bona Jhlc intention of complying with the Act, no one can be injured. If such be not the case, I say it is our bounden duty as a Land Board to prevent land being acquired in the manner so inauy people suspect it is. The land sold at the last sale was most carefully selected and classified by the Board, and I have no hesitation in saying there was not a, section that was not highly suitably for the system of mixed farming. It would be a great evil if these landa were acquired simply for no other purpose than running s>tock on them as before.

Mr Clark : That is all admitted,

Mr GitKEN: For these reasons, I think it becomes our duty, as members of the Land Board, to do all we possibly can to assure ourselves and the public as to whether or not what is suspected really does exist. If it does, then we should put down our foot and say, We will not take a single step that will enable these dummies to ostpnsibly occupy the land, but that the land shall be occupied in terms of the Act and in a fair manner. I shall support this motion, hoping, for the reasons Mr Stout has assigned, that Mr Cargill will not raise any objections. If lie does, then I will bo quite prepared to make a recommendation that other steps be taken before issuing the licenses. I feel in duty bound to satisfy mytsolf whether or not thero is any foundation for the rumonni afloat, and a3 far as possible to pravonldummyisrn from acquiring a foothold in the nlace. " The Chief Commissioner : The clerk has reminded me that this matter cams up for con-

sidemtion yesterday, and that it was adjourned for a week—until tiio regular incutiug.

Mr CliAliK : 1. think it i.i desirabh:, hmv that the motion has boon proposed and will appear in tho public prints, that we should adjourn tho meeting until next week. 1 do not say that I will not support tho motion ; but at tho samo time there should bo a full Board.

Mr Stoi.t : I. do not object to that, seeing there aro two members of Uio Hoard away.

The discussion was adjourned till no.vt moot' ing of tho Board.