THE HON. R. STOUT AT THE QUEEN'S THEATRE.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 5131, 29 July 1878, Page 6

THE HON. R. STOUT AT THE QUEEN'S THEATRE.

The Hoe. R. Stout, Attorney-General, and JM.ILIt. for the City of diuedin, met the electors nnd non-electors at the Queen's Theatre, Prirces street, on the 9th July, for the purpose of addressing them on political HisWoship the Mayor of Dunedin (R. H. Leary, 1?q.,) presided, p.nd the Theatre was crowded.

His \Voesiup, in opening the meeting, said the Atf.fuey General had done him the honour of askug- him to preside on that occasion, and he presumed that that meeting would have no objervion to him doing so.—(Cheers.) He need hardy bespeak a patient hearing for Mr Stout, for he believed that on every occasion that thfC gentleman presented himself before the pi-olio he had been very well received. He therefore contented himself by simply calling tpon the hou. gentleman to address the meet"eg.

The Attorney General, on rising, said: Sir Chairman, Ladies, and Gentlemen —I may say that I appear before you this night in fulfihnent of a promise I made in a speech that I gave when I was first {elected for Dunedin — that after every session of Parliament I should nie^t my constituents, and I did so because I believed at the time, aud I still believe, that both representative aud represented are mutually benefited by meeting each other face to face at least once a ye::r. And I may state that I would have met my constituents earlier had it not been that I waited after the session until it could be teen whether the other representatives could be present, and even now,at the last moment, I expected Mr Macaudrew would have been here to-night. I received to-d-iy a letter from him, and I Khali read to you the first part, giving the reasons why he is unable to attend. He says :"I see that you are to ad-di'cs-j tiie Duuedin constituency next week. I regret very much being unable to put in an ap-j;s?.-Tf>T>ce along with yon. I believe" I was the first Otago member, who set the example years ago, of giving an account of his stewardship. It i.s a wholesome practice, the observance of Yi'hicli on my part eucnmsfcanees have lately interfered with. May I request that you would be good enough to apologise for my rib sence, and to assure my constituents, that although at present fully occupied in dealing ■with the affairs of the country as a wh'-le, my duty to them has not been neirlected."—

(Cheer*.) Now, gentlemen, I appear before you in what I may term two capacities—first, 1 appear as your representative, and secondly, I appear before 3 rou as a member of the Government, and therefore I intend to ehtiik out this course for myself in addressing you on this occasion.

THE LAST SESSION.

I propose first to ailude to what was done in the last session, and to give you my opiuion en the various matters of importance that came before the House ; and, in the second place, I intend to set out in some respect what might be termed the policy of the Government. Now of course it would' be impossible for me in one evening to deal with all matters importance that came before the House, of Representatives last session. I shall therefore have to cor,tent myself with selecting two or three- of the most important; and if I overlook or neglect any point, or any principle, or any theories that were broached there that may be deemed of importance by anyone present, ii will simply be perhaps in consequence cf my inability to touch upon all matters that came before the Housj.

THE LAND BILL

There were, as you are aware, several important Bills, and I shall deal first with the Land Bill. I deal first with the Land Bill or this account, that ever since I entered into political life the question of the land laws has been one which always received very careful consideration from me ; and, secondly, because in reference to that Land Bill I took rather an active part in its passage. First, I was on the Committee to which this Bill was referred, and which bad sittings extending over a considerable period of the session—meeting almost daily in the morning, and sitting on until the House met in the afternoon. Then, also, when the Atkinson Government was defeated, I, along with Mr Ballance, waited on Sir George Grey and urged him to take up this Bill, though it contained some previsions of which we did not approve. At our suggestion be did take the Bill up, and in the House, though I was not a member of the Government, I was asked to carry the Bill through Committee, and anyone who has been in the House, and knows thYcare and attention that have to be devoted to carry such a, Bill as that through, will appreciate the difficulty I had to overcome in managing such an important Bill in Committee. Now, in dealing with the land question there are, I believe, many persons who know the views I hold, and that in my opinion the land ought never to have been sold.—(Cheers.) I have thought over this question for a long time; I have read almost every book that I could lay my hands on dealing with it, and all my thinking and all my reading leads me to this firm conviction — that it would be the very best thing possible if the State never parted with the freehold of the land—(Hear, hear.) For example, I could point out various reasons why that principle should have been asserted in this new Colony. First, everyone has to admit that land is not like ordinary property. That has been admitted in what may be termed the most Conservative countries in the world. It was admitted in Prussia more than 28 years ago, ■where there was not much liberal sentiment; in England, and in dealing with the Irish Land question by the British Parliament, in passing a Bill which interferes with the contract between the landlord and tenant. You can hardly take up a book on political economy in •which the writer does not admit that land is a peculiar kind of property, differing from other property, and which cannot be dealt with in the same way. I say we find that in a new Colony, because we see ex- j emplih'ed in this Colony things which are not exemplified in older countries, and that is the vast increase in the value of land that takes place simply through the growth of the com munity as a whole ; and I say if the community as a whole has made one kind of property valu- I ._ able,_ and the owner of the property has done v' nothing towards it, at any rate the owner of the property has no right to say he is to get all the profit, and the community to get none at all.— (Cheers.) I say that is my view on the land question, but unfortunately when I broached this matter in the House of Assembly in 1576, I got very few supporters, and I am afraid the public opinion of Xew Zealand is :" not educated to adopt such a principle in dealing with the land; and, second in consequence of the vast quantities of land sold, a very great difficulty is thrown in the way of getting such a principle made law. But as tnat principle could not be made law, I said, or I had previously said before -Dunedin and other audiences, that I ■would then support that which would approach the most nearly to this principle being given effect to, and that there were two . things which had to be guarded. First, we had •■^■■-•tne right to see that the land was not parted with except it was for the promotion of settlement ; and secondly also we had this to see to, that the land was not too quickly parted with, and the right to look to the interests of tne people by preventing any dealing with it in large areas and acquiring vast estate ° .=;, ■ Inis question, of what m*y be termed the unearned increment—an increase in the value of the land not caused by anything the landowner may do, will be of importance when I come to deal, further on in my speech, with the ~,. question of the incidence of taxation. I may state that in this Land Act, there were many '.••■■ -objectionable provisions. There was a proposal to extend the licenses of the Canterbury runiolders for ten years. I opposed that most strongly, and I opposed it on this ground tnat they had no legal and no eouit able claim to such an extension, and" in ~ Committee in the House—unfortunately the Committee debates are not reported— i I wrung from Mr AVhitaker, the Attorney- j ■ueneral, this admission, that in law the Canterbury runholuers had no claim for this extensioii, and I would like to- know what right the • - Coiony nad to give them the extension for ten ...., Sap \ This right was acknowledged in the -Kill. In tne Athenaeum and other places, where you will find a report of the Lands Committee s you will see how, day by day, I have fought -~.tuesametmng, generally findinc myself in a .:: minority of one or two. I then proposed see- .= .mg thay were to gtt this large extension, they were to pay for it. Some proposed that tne tax or rental should beeightpence per sheen • otiicw proposed that it .should be ninepence ___ or a s-niimg, and I myself proposed that it 1-e one aiul sixpence—that was negatived. Th°n it was got at a shilling, and thot was carried • out after be:ag fixed at a shilling a proposal was isaac to reduce it to ninepence. and ur>- \ .fortunately that proposal was carried. Now on that I might point that the late*Govern?r>ent, even Ihonsh they were at first in ' favour of^the shilling, almost all—l think all— ■-- possibly aEi-K-M was an exception, but except iiim Atkinson, Bower,, M'Lean, Ormond, and •-■..■ Wiiitakerall voted for the smaller rental on the extiiision of the leases. I mention this to shov/ the diijiemty one had to deal with in the iior.se of jiepresentfttives, and that it i-; a great Kr'it-.kc to suppose tL-.t the House of Itepi-psen- - tatives ; yT ISW Z-nlaud is at all a Radical hjtfy, '.'■ i;; i:::..^ on Hie contrary, its members are very v'oi!-erv;.,t:ve. Then there- were various ottier provisions in the Act I wished to see ev;i<-ic;.- t —i-.r txr.a;,!^ a proposal to sell en-.:u-u on ii.;fe)rc.l paymoiits. I proposed, ana u;ac in i.;<jt i-: cmed. and is law, feno • ' mnv/ho uas an jiv**, of G-iO acres of freehold j:1:!' 1,™ t"; t0 of the deferred wv- ~^!!.; provi,-Mus. J. wisned this carried "out a.so v. : it-> ••ef.M-caca to the deferred r>avri<ent i.iov3.-:i-..uiiof/ouo vaniorol country. You .are aw.-u-'j iaa-u k a i*".i-Mi in the Act allowing 2>-:5,.,-rcd country to L? taken up on deferred -. -.■ ~/^-' us >, tl''!i- i-.l :1-V^d th:<t no one sbovJd •' ■ -"I "it1:"': ?, s , VIV !nore .th" sl .lore?. j_.:p.p .v;w MUiOit-.'ial-^y r,egativc-d. IrujVh';go on .Sii.-.vins you that I was unable tn the ■provisions xv. .%<! for.. The notion of frou :. trr.de jn Lie-I J. ..say is an absurdity, and - ■■ ■ -ffliiiEOo pa carried mC nnil li-s/opLfff thing was to take care that the least 'evil posaf-

ble was done by the Land Bill. There are various other Acts I wish to take up in their order.

THE EDUCATION ACT,

The next important Bill that catne before the Houao was the Education Act, and that was not made, what I might term, a partyquestion. The Act, as introduced, I supported to a certain extent, but I was opposed to the Act having provisions in it that made it a not strictly secular measure; because I am satis fied the only way to deal in fairness to all religious sects in our community is to put them all on a level, and have our education strictly aud purely secular. — (Cheers.) I shall deal shortly with this question of secular education, but there is one provision before I deal with that to which I wish to refer. It was proposed to charge a fee or capitation tax, and i at first supported the late Government when they proposed that, because I did not well see how the funds could be raised twhluut it; but that was negatived. It was asked, " Why should we have a direct tax for education? why not have a direct tax for various other things necessary to the community—our prisons and police, or various institutions ?" and I agreed with the faimes3 of tha_ argument, and I think he onus or disagreeableness of a direct tax should not be thrust on education. I know that making education purely secular does not please all classes of the community. It would be a very peculiar community if all were pleased with any simple measure; but I put it, that so far as secular education is concerned it is the fairest to all in this way, that all classes admiD secular education can bo separated from what is termed religions education. I will show you how that admission was made. There was a proposal by Mr Curtis to give what was called aid to various schools. This was supported by those who favoured denominational education, and there was this provision in Mr Curtis's proposal, tha"4^ during certain hours nothing was to be taugh iv tuess schools but secular subjects; but others argued that if you can separate, as you admit by this proposal, religious from secular education, why do you require secular schools and religious schools at all, why net bring up the children in their own religious beliefs, but let the State look after what concerns all classes of secular education. Tnere was, however, one defect in tin Bill, and I know upon this subject there ari great difference of opinion in this community—and that is in reference to what is i called high schools or secondary schools. In my opinion the great blot in the Education Act is that the State education does not provide f■. r the higher as well as primary education. I loo!-: at it in this way—lt is very well to say the State could only give elementary education, but what does that mean ? It means that the oidy persons who can get the higher education, as I will show you, are those who have wealth. The wealthier people in the community send their sons to Christehurch and Wellington, and can afford to pay for their board and education; but 1 say if the State does not subsidise the high schools, or provide for secondary education in some way, the result 'will be that those who have no means will be unable to get any higher education. I would like to see the law that is in force in the city of Boston, United States, and a law that is in even such a poor country as Sweden, carried out here, that from the lower school to the University no man should have a right to demand a fee, but simply that upon passing a certain examination the highest education of the State is open to the poorest as well a3 to the wealthiest. Finding, therefore, that this Education Bill did ni>t provide for that higher education, I did what 1 considered to be the next best thing. I attempted to save, as I might term it, "out of the fire," some education reserves, in order to get our High School endowed. I succeeded; and I believe if cur High School reserves are well managed we shall be able to see, in a few years, not merely the children of the citizens of Dunedin, but every boy and girl in Otago, if they could pass a certain examination, will be able to have iree admission _to the High Schools, so as to fit them for the highest position of citizens. The result would be if the higher ednca tion was not looked after by the State, that the poorer classes would have no such opportunity. In countries that have made education a, care of the State what do we find? We find they have looked after the higher schools first; that they considered the elementary schools more likely to succeed than the higher, and have subsidised the higher. The result of the Government not stepping in to aid secondary education would throw it wholly into the hands of powerful churches, or into the hands of wealthy men, and throwing it into their hands would not, I think, be satisfactory to the community. In dealing with this question I may say that tho Education Reserves were taken in as the 'ate Government proposed they should be, and made, in fact Colonial Reserves, because all our reserves had been practically taken from'us and made Colonial Reserves. That is, there are only one - fourth of the different reserves left, and the or.e-fourth is given to the higher schools for the purposes of higher education, founding scholarships, assisting the High Schools,_und promoting education, but all the rest are in a common purse, and so far as our education reserves are concerned three-fourths have practically gone from us.

THE LTCESSIXG LAWS,

There is another question which has come before Parliament, and to which I desire to refer. I may say that possibly, even probably, a majority of my constituents do not agree with me on the subject but I consider it due to them and to myself that I should state the opinions I hold and that I should freely express them. If my constituents do not agree with me I caunot even change my views to please them. I come now to the question of the licensing law, and I may say on this question I have ta/ren a certain and decided position, not only in the House of Assembly, but I took up che same position the very first election contest I had in Caversham, and in the Provincial Council I never was afraid to assert the opinion I held on this subject ; and in dealing with this licensing question, I know there are some in this community who think they can frighten people by saying, if you vote for the Local Option Bill, or do not agree to give compensation to publicans, you will have a block vote against you at the next election. Well, gentlemen, I would sooner have a block vote against me next election than change my opinions and keep my seat—(Oheera.) With reference to this licensing question, I say I am in favour of giving the people, not only on licensing, but on all questions, the greatest and most direct control in the management of their own affairs and I ask you what does the Local Option Bill do otherwise ? It simply asks for power to give to people the greatest control of the licensing question, and why should a section of the community be afraid ? If the people think there ought to be no public-houses, why should not the people say so as well as the Licensing Bench ? Why, we have the Local Option Bill now._ It is L*w that if two-thirds of'the com munity in any licensing distrist are opposed to the granting of licenses, the hotels must be closed. Supposing you get two-thirds of the inhabitants of Leith Ward to say there should be_ nopublic-houses in Leith Ward, the only thing is that the two-thirds have to go against every individual publican, and if they so vote by memorial, and it came before the Licensing Bench, by law the Bench would have to say they could not possibly grant the licenses. All I wish to see in the licensing law is this, that instead of taking a two-thirds vote by memorial, that there should be a vote taken once in three years over the licensing district, and the public left to decide the question without having to attack the individual publican. I say that is the fairest way to approach such a subject as this. I notice that the candidates up for election lately—the candidates for the laienand other districts—are all raisin«■ this question, and say we ought to have a Local Uption Bill, but want compensation. Gentlemen, I would like to know what is the compensation for ? I say it is far better for a man to say he is against the Local Option Bill than to favour compensation. What is the compensation for ? Is it for loss of license ? Xob'ody proposes to take the license away until ft has run out; and that is all the State makes a bargain for. It says, "For consideration o_t a certain sum you shall have the right to sell liquors for twelve months " and the State fulfils its contract by allowing the privilege far one year. The next year the Bench may refuse to grant a license, and who lias broken a contract, or what right has the publican for compensation at all ? I ask you to look at this question of compensation in an other light. I want to know what is compensation for? Is it compensation for the building? Nobody proposes to take the building. Is it compensation for trade? Nobody proposes to take the trade from them." All that is proposed U that they shall not sell liqucr.—(Laughter.) Very well, if they say that is a good deal—but all these people who are licensed, are not licensed merely to sell liquor, they are supposed to look after travellers and to provide board raid lodging accommodation. But I ask you now to look at it in this way. In reference to this question of compensation, I say you do not take anything from them except it be the good will of their trad", and if they ray it is such a profitable thing they require compensation, then they are paying too small liceiuir-g fee and if the State is to give compensation it nvs- get from thorn immensely more l-ionev, or we should try what-was proposed in Gla^oV —to y>ut the lu-cPses up to auction. But they wul say there is what is termed a vested rfirht. anil you mo to get what is called cinnfjisa'tion tor the v^ted right. Well, I wdl read you ve.y short extracts from two of the abl-^t pontjcal writers. One i.s one of the ablest writers on jurisprudence—Sir G, S. L*wi< ard I will read yon an extract from what he says. Lev/is Fays : " When a Legislature paces' a, law, not for any temporary purpose, r.or limited r.s to tie ti:i:e of its operation, run! which therefore niny 1)3 reasonably exp-'ctod to he per:n;uien<—n:vl persons foiublhf: hi its permanency emb.-srk their cap'tal, bestow their labour—shp.pe the conivo of their li?<\ so that their only hope of .sucjcss i;; founded on the existence of the lav.-—the rights which they have acquire'! in roliar.ee upon its continuance are termed ' vest-id rights,' and persons iv this situation are considered

as having a maral claim on the Legislature for the maintenance of law, or at least for the allowance of a sufficient time to withdraw their investments, and to take measures necessary for guarding against tho loss consequent on so large a change." Thea he again says : " The doctrine of vested rights must not be stretched too far, as there is scarcely a right on which some expectations are not founded, and which does not in some degree serve as a guide of conduct. It can only be admitted where the loss would be great aud tho probability uf tho law being repeated or modified was inconsiderable.' Well of course so far as that is concerned the law now exuts, and the publican may lose his license, and then the law, so far as vested rights are concerned, would come under this category. Then Austin says this : "When it is said that the Legislature ought not to deprive parties of their vested • rights,' all that is meant is this—that the rights styled ' vested' are sacred, or inviolable, or are such as the parties ought not to be deprived of by the legislature. . . . And it may be added the proposition as thus understood is just as applicable to contingent rights, or to the chances or possibilities of lights, or to the vested rights or rights properly so called. To deprive a man of expectancy without a manifest preponderance of general utility, were just as pernicious as to deprive him of a right without the same reason io justify the measure." And so, as Austin puts it, if we are going to c nnpensate publicans because they might not get a continuance of their licenses, why should not you compensate those who erect houses suitable for a hotel, and the Bench will not give them licenses ; they had a right to expect a license, and why should not they be compensated as much as those who having had licenses do not get them renewed ? I cannot see the distinction. It appears that the Licensing Bench may say to the publicans, without reason or rhyme or anything else—" Your license is refused." Against this tuere is no appeal, and nobody asks compensation ; but if the community does it, if a majority of the people say there shall be no licenses, there is to be compensation ? So far as the question of compensation is concerned, this is illogical and absurd. This licencing discussion every three years would have an immense effect on the colony. There is far too much drinking and drunkenness in this Colony, and I think the people ought; to do all they can to put down this drunkenness that is mining many young men. There is no one in Dunedin but who may point to some one he bus known, some young man who has b;eu ruined through drink, and it behoves every one with the feelings of humanity in him to do what he can to put an end to this terrible curse.

LAND FUND,

I now come to another matter about which there has been a considerable difference of opinion. I come to the question of the Land Fund. Gentlemen, you will recollect that 1 said as soon as ever the Abolition Bill became law, the land fund was gone. I may say, in reference to that, we were told there would be provision in the new Abolition Bill giving us our land fund, and this provision would never be repealed. That was to be a Medo Persian law, that was never to be changed. What was the result ? That took place iv 1875. In 187G the Parliament met, and the Treasurer came down with a statement that, in addition to the suras charged on the land fund for various Uu'ngs, for surveys, loans, and other matters, there had to be an additional two per cent, taken. What did tbat mean! Why, that meant taking two per cent- from the Provinces that had a land fund sufficient to cover these other charges. It was well known in the House it was a mere fictitious thing putting on this two per cent., and the other charges show how fictitious the thing was. I may tell you that the charges on the land fund proper could not be paid by the land fund all over the Colony. There were various Provinces which could not inert the charges, and what was the result in 1877 ? I am now going to prove that the Land Fund wa3 fast going. In the year ending June, 1877, there was actually L 200,000 that had to be what was termed advanced in aid of the Land Fund. That simply meant this —we will fcake it that Canterbury was aide to pay the charges cast on its land fund, Otago, I believe, was not, because there was no surplus— you have heard of the loss of a great surplus revenue, but there was none to divide, at any rate it was only a very few thousands, and Auckland, Wellington, and almost all the provinces were unable outoftheLandFundto meet charges? What did the Colonial Treasurer do ? He took L 150,000 of Treasury bills ; and another thing he did was to take a certain sum out of the consolidated revenue, and these two sums, making up L 200,000, were taken in aid of the Laud Fund. What did that mean? Why, it meant that the rest of the Colony was to make up the deficiency on the Land Fund —it meant that you take your money in one hand and just put it in the other, and that tho Land Fund was practically aa it was unable to meet the charges put on it. Not only that—that was up to IS77—but seeing the j^and Fund was totally unable to meet the charges put on it by the A bolition and Financial Arrangements Act, 1876, the Treasurer says: "These advances in aid of the Land Fund cannot continue. What will we do ? Why we will take L 50,000 outofthe Canterbury Land Fund, and LlO9 out of the Otago Land Fund." That was the proposal of the late Government. Ihe surplus revenue was being taken away, and as I could show you, thore was none left. I may gay I saw this long before the Atkinson Government were thrown out, and that on the 2-lth of August I said that the Land Fund was practically gone. At that time, when so far as appearances were concerned, there was not the slightest chance of the Atkinson Government being ousted, I said that the system of advancing in aid of the Land Fund was a vicious system of finance, and if you will refer to Hansard you will find that 1 said that I could not blind myself to the fact that next year the land fund would go altogether. We have had speeches in which the Grey Government have been blamed for taking the land fund, but practically they did not take the fund, because it was, so far as Otago was concerned, taken already, and this year Otago will ,q better off than it has been since 1875, because under the Land Act the clause carried by Mr Ballance, who is now in the Ministry, one-third of the price of the deferred payment land in Otago is to go to make roads towards the deferred payment land. First that motion was that one third of the total land fund was to go for themaking ofroads, and the next thing that came up was a new arrangement—that 20 per cent, of the total Land Fund was to go to the counties on which the Land Fund arose. I may say it was I who moved this way of allocating the 20 per cent, It was pressed that instead of the 20 per cent, being allocated it should be spread over the counties in accordance with the rates and area. I said that was unfair, because I conceived that the fund was properly spent in opening up the land sold, and that those counties in which most land was sold ought to have the greatest proportion of the land revenue in order to make reads to the new settlements, and that one could not expect to see settlement thrive if small settlers were cast in outlying districts on blocks of land with neither roads to get to or from the market. I moved that, and it was lost on one clause. Mr Hislon then moved it in another clause, and it was carried. I do not say that the 20 per cent, was the fairest, but I say that everyone saw next year it would go and to preserve it another year would be allowing the rich distiict of Canterbury to get an enormous revenue, because they were selling rapidly. Mr Murray-Aynsley said at Lyttefton that if they could have kept the Land Fund another year, then they could have let it go, and the result, we find at present, is that the Load Boards of Canterbury have half a million standing to their credit, and if the Land Fund had not been naken this year, they would have had half a million more, and would have snapped their gangers and paid, "Gentlemen, you may takethe rest." [Mr |Stout here quoted from Mr Curtis's speech.] But I want to quote something far better than that, which jwill show you that the Grey Government, by allowing this third of tho deferred payment to go to making the roads to open up the deferred payment blocks, are far more liberal than the Atkinson Government; and to piove tbat 1 will quote the words of^ Majw Atkinson himself. He says: —" If the Government had taken the Land Fund in a reasonable way, the Government would have had a reasonable balance to begin next year with, instead of a, deficit, and I think we would not have had increased taxation." That simply means that Maior Atkinson wanted the deficit in the Colonial Treasury to be made up out of the Land Fund and ho would have made it up by taking it ii' the reasonable way. That, I think, is sufficient to show what we ou^'lit to do. The speaker ' said that it was absolutely necessary that they should ceas3 this Micawber svs-tsm of Treasury Bills, and that it was absurd to s-iy there was such n, thing ns the hind Fund secured when the Abolition Bill bjcanie hv.v, as they would see by the tallies iii the sixth volume of Hansard, pnge liii which would prove that the. fuml was practically gone wh^n the Abolition Bill became law. Another matter wlrdi had been provided for by the Waste Lands Bill, was tint no land should be sold at li-ss than LI per acre, so as to prevent specnlatorsobtainin^ anvmopo]-'----overlarge tniets of country at a nominal .-urn The dowrfall of the Ministry he attributed in a great measure to the Native i/md .Mil!, which they had been prepared to support, ] m t with j drew when informed by their whips. Tin; im- ! pnrtanee o{ thn Bill, and of pr-ntocliu.u' t.he i native lands both Ujtiu: jilioriginid population ' and to Europeans was referred to, ai.d t'it-i ex- ! tent of the eointry still in the hands of tin- ; native rroprietors shown !iy ;i coloured ! map. The iioiio!r-abli« ?»rrSN>iit continued :— !

And I nriy s.iy, gen*loin.-n. that the introduction of this Native Land Kill, whi'ih piv.cti'•ally allowed unlimited purchasers to b« . p'cu lators, would have p.ssHed the man of wealth in scour-in;,' a'l Native lands. If tin's Xatisv Mill had p.-is-ud, the result would have b'-:;n that th<? whole of the Nori-h IVlaii'l woul.l have been practically excluded from si>ftlom"nv, m\>\ woul i jf > into tho hands r.f .1 few land " ii::-s" We opposed the Bill, nnd thr.t was tho first thing tha1; led to the downfall of the Atkinson Government, —(Cheers.)

THE FUTURE. _ So far, gentlemen, I ha^e been speaking of the pasc. There are various other things to which I could allude, but of course it would take too much time. I now come to deal with the future, and to set forth to you in some respects the policy of the Government on the various questions of the day. In doing so, I may say that so far as public works are concerned, a very important proposition was made by Mr Macandrew in the H oll se—and I hope yet to see it affirmed in a modified form—and that was instead of having our railways simply along the coast and through settled districts, the system should be made so that tha railways should penetrate into the interior to oyen up the fine blocks of Crown Lands that are yet unsold. —(Cheers.) It the land was put up for auction during the construction of these railways, sufficient revenue would be obtained from the ground that would pay for the railways, and we would not need any loana.— (Cheers ) Iloweve-, when one comes to propose anything of such a general character as that, one is always met with the cry of district*—" Where is our railway to be ? Every Government must provide in some respects for the proper development of the resources of the Colony. We have striven in dealing with public works to carry them out efficiently, but also to provide surveys, so that Parliament might have an opportunity of saying whether any particular line of railway shall be gone on with or not. AI.VS OF THE GOViCKXMEXT. Now, gentlemen, I want to bring before you what I may term—to use an American phrase—three planks on our political platform. I wish to set before you the aim and views of the Government in dealing with three great I questions of the day. In doing so, of course one must remember that if any Government sets itself to obtain any measure of reform, that is a thing that cannot be obtained all at once-it must come gradually. All that the people can look at is this, Are the Government setting up for themselves some definite aim ? and, Are they honestly working towards accomplishing that oirc ? "And if the people see Lhat the Government are honestly doing ho, j and that they have the ability and energy to | carry it into law, then they are entitled to give the Government their support.—(Loud cheers.) Well, with regard to the three planks I have alluded to, let me say that the first of these planks is administrative reform, the second i.s electoral reform, and the third taxation reform. ADMINISTRATIVE UKFOnjr. First of all the Government pledges itself to provide for administrative reform, and although they have only been a short time in office, they will be able to show to the in coming Parliament when they adopt their Estimates, that there will have been effected a great saving in purely the cost of administration, without affecting, moreover, such departments as the Telegraph Department and the Postal Department. The Government will be able to .show at tho_ very least a saving of Li'o,ooo a year, during the short time they have been in office. —(Loud cheers.) I will'show you how that will be effected. First there must, as everyone admits, be a reduction in the expense of Government. How is that to be obtained ? I believe it i3 to bs obtained by the judicious amalgamation of offices, by decentralisation, by casting upon public bodies functions that cannot possibly be performed by the best governed public body in Wellington. In the Native department we will show an immense saving, also in tbe Justice department, also by the reforms that Mr Macandrew inaugurated in the Public Works department. I may point out to you what the Government are .solely attempting to do in reference to the Justice Department. I again say that where the Government has to deal with officers who have been a long time in their employ, it is unfair to sacrifice these officers all at once; you must provide that your reform shall not be unnecessarily harsh or severe; you must look after individual interests. I will give you an example of hew I think this reform should be carried out. We have in New Zealand a large number —or, peril aps I should say a number—of District Judges, and I am confident that they have not been half-worked.-—(Loud cheers.) There is au immense amount of work tbat thc-e District Judges could accomplish. We have District Judges could accomplish. We;!have also scattered through the country a vast number of .Resident Magistrates. Now, in saying what I have to say about Jlesident Magistrates, I don't mean to cast a slur on any magistrate in particular, but we find that whenever a man is unfitted for any other occupation, we make him a Ilesident Magistrate. — (Cheers and laughter). I could even name instances in which it was found that a man who was put into a Government situation was not suited for it, and so they made him a Resident Magistrate. The Government propose to establish District Courts throughout the Colony. We then propose that in the larger towns there shall be a magistrate who will deal with criminnl offences and civil cases tip to a certain amount. _ The Distrct Courts shall do the rest of the civil work up to a certainjjainouni. A new District and Itesideut Magistate's Courts Act has been prepared, extending the'jurisdiction of the District Courts,gand giving them jurisdiction in partnership matters and small disputes about boundaries. The law of New Zealand with respect to boundary !di«putes is at present in a very unsatisfactory slate. Sup pose two men—and we need not go far to select a pK->-> for illustration, let us take York place —tht-ae two men quarrel about a boundary. One man says the fence ought to be in such and such a place, and the other man says it ought to be the other way. The thing is not worth a L2O-note. Who is to settle the dispute? By the present law it could not be settled by a Magistrate or District Court. The disputants would have to go to the Supreme Court, and engage in an action that may cost them L2OO or L3OO. There ought, therefore, to be a certain jurisdiction to deal with these questions of disputed boundaries in these District Court?, so that people need not run to an ! enormous expense to settle these matters.— (Cheers.) There are also a large number of small partnership affairs in this town. Two partners agree. Perhaps their stock is not worth more than JLISO or L2OO. They nuarrel One says of the other, "He has L?o*of my money." What is he to do? Very likely he has to go to an enormous expense in getting it. In what way then would this effect the administrative reform ? If I had my way I could save at least LIO.OOO a year in connection with these magistrates, and justice would be far better administered than it is now.— (Cheers.) We are gradually leading up to that. If, however, every small village in the Colony say?, " we must have a magistrate," it would be hopeless. I don't see why the District Judge should not sit in the various chief towns of the province, either once a month or once a fortnight, the same as the County Court judges do in Victoria. If they did this justice would be far better and more cheaply administered, and the people would be far more satisfied, for they would then have properly trained men to do [ the service, and not men who had been chucked into the Service because they were fit for nothing else. —(Loud cheers.) We should call in to our assistance more than we do the J.P.s —a title which is looked upon as a sort of colonial knighthood in the Colony.—(Laughter.) I think the J.P. system ought to be utilized more than it is. Some J.P.s are good for the Bench, others are serviceable for taking declarations and thing? of that sort. I don't see why all the light business in tbe Courts in Dunedin should not be done by the numerous J.P.s we have in our midst.—(Hear, hear.) Throughout tha Colony we intend to call upon J.P.s and remind them that they are to perform some work for their honourable title.—(Hear, hear.) There is another thing that I am reminded of in speaking about administrative reform, and is this: We find that in England, for example, great reform has been made in the proceedings of the superior Courts. One of the first things I did was to communicate with the Colonial Secretary to have the rules for the Supreme Court simplified, and stating that we ought to have a fixed scale of fees and charges for engaging counsel to practise in the Supreme Court, so that a man who appealed from the Magistrate's Court to the Supreme Court might know how much the affair was likely to cost him. We will fix that matter, gentlemen, and by having the whole of the procedure of [ our Supreme Court simplified and cheapened we believe we shall be affording a boon on the Colony, for then every person will be able to ootain justice.—(Loud cheers.) I have shown you that it is simply by the amalgamation |of offices and de-centralisation —it is by that system that we hope to have our system carried out more economically than in the past.

ELKCTOUAL KKFOJiM.

I will ikav pass on to the subject of j'-ilectoml lieforra. Now, I don't ste why such a cry should be raided about this question of manhood sr.firage. Snmc men get frightened fthnn.st hke olil women when .you mention manhood suffrage. I don't see why they should object to manhood suffrage. I don't see why a man who comes to this Colony should be deprived of a vote, whilst a umn who lias a freehold property, l.r,Q in value, should po-<ee«.s the l>riviH'e_of voting. We have some proposals to make in reftroneo to this question, and' after you have heard what they p.iv, you will bo ;d;le tojnjl-o ror yourselves whether they are not fair and reasonable. "We propose three kinds yf fivsH.-hi.-e. We propose to retain the present frcfhold IYmK.-Vse ; then to have a ratepayer's fr.im-lu^, that is, any person on the ratepayers' r.'ll sln.U have hU name put on the electoral r<->ll without bother or expense to him=elf; and ti!^ government also prop-,se to. a('opt what wijl b._> )',-_rardcd as a unique thins/ in these '-■oio:;n;s-~that. where women are on the rdl as

tiu.-y ,:!s» >!r>il l>o fillowe.l to v-U — (Ch-cr:-*.) T_<!on/t s.-e why th<>y yhrnxbl not <->:.;TcHi( tlir-ir franchise y\~t the same as a nirm ff they pay rutes.—(llenowe«l ch<-evs.) V\ ith re.^inl f<» snaiihfioil or i-e;-M-.-nti;i! snlFra^e, :v-> |.i-.-i;i".-'..' i!i:if. any fn-rxr.! who iius resiil'-d "ix i:iu:itlrs in ii:iy one ili.-itricfc f.h.^U 1.0 ont-'tled to h:<-vo hi.-; tu.mo put <»n tliovoll. If h-r;hoo ?0 ln.v.t-v.T, to ii-vo-t, his en;iVd in the Cohmy hy hsiviric a fn-choM ho c;i>\ Ijee.nn,-. a froehuLl oiuetor :it onrro. Wo :,iso rroi.cso that tin-inv-.-ms of '-rettur,' on the r.:]l hl'ail he more .■'!>■■•:-'dy th;m at pr..>r:ent. AVo will af'iopt th.c phin tli:xt is in vcl-.'.0 in Victcriiifor having el; -t'M-.-! r-irv:tovo'l twice a yer>r.~( I r,. : , r> h^nr"^ Alum; with this "Ri:>>re.-ont;>tion I'.iil wo p r ,. po*o tohnve a Jinbery Bill. We proposo to m.ike ni'.vit stringout provi.-ion.i ay.unst bril.vjry

at elections.—(Cheers.) Bribery means that the wealthy man shall alone be returned as the representative of the people. — (Loud cheers.) If I had my way I should prohibit the employment by any candidate of canvassers, or cabs, or any'expense whatever, so that the man who is standing to become a representative of the people shall be judged of, not by the wealth he possesses, but by his intellect, his moral character, his opinions on political subjects.—(Loud cheers ) In reference to these Bills there is a provision that I was defeated in last yesr, but which, I believe, they have in Canada now, or if not in Canada, at all events in the United States, i ,1f, tIll3: On election days public-houses shall be closed.—(Cheers and laughter.) This 1 consider a very useful provision.—(Renewed laughter.) I tell you why I think that should be made law. I look upon the giving of a vote as a most important thiiig—a thing requiring judgment. I don't think any man can exercise judgment if he has got what the Americans call an inch of whisky in him.—(Laughter.) 1 think, therefore, that the giving of a vote should be taken in as solemn a manner as we take a trial in the Court, *nd that the people should be allowed to go to the polls quietly without cabs or canvassers after them, or public-houses to tempt there. — (Cheers.) Ihe hours of polling, moreover, we propose shall be extended, so that no man shall say that he had to leave his work in order to »ive his vote. The Bills are very long, so I shall not enter into details. I will now deal with those people who have a terrible horror of manhood sntlrage. I generally find that these people have a vote themselves. They think prcbablv that, having a vote, they are possessed of more judgment or brains than the man who has not a vote. Is the possession of LSO a test that they have more brains ? I could easily name dozens of men who have more brains than the generality of those people, and yet their names are not on the electoral roll. If I choose I could quote to you some of the most eminent men who have written on this subject and they will tell you (as Mill says) that • Everyone is degraded, whether aware of it or not, when other people, without consulting himself, take upon themselves unlimited power to regulate his destiny." That is practically sustained if you exclude any class from the franchi.se. In this Colony we all ought to be put on a level.—(Cheers.) It is all nonsense to say that because a man has LuO worth of land he is to have a vote, whilst the new comer has not. I can't understand why any objection should be rnised against this Bill.—(Hear, near.) I havo now pointed out to you some of the reasons for electoral reform. Of course there are a great number of other reasons that 2ould be given, but I need not dwell upon them because the onus of showing the unreasonable' ness of my arguments rests with those who object to them,

TAXATION REFORM. § I now come to deal with the third plank — the question of Taxation lleforin. The means we Lave of raising our revenue at present may be said to be fourfold. We have, first, land revenue, we have Customs stamps, and various licenses. In reference to this it has been said, and in some of the Conservative journals—the Australasian for instance—they are continually harping about class legislation. I believe that class legislation is wrong-, but I say that al) our legislation, so f-ir as the taxation system in this Colony is concerned, ha 3 been class legislation, because it has cast the burthens on one class and allowed the wealthy class to escape.—(Cheers.) I shall cite to you the opinions of some of the most eminent economists that have written, and I will ask you whetherthesearenottheprinciples that should guide us in dealing with this subject. Adam Smith lays down four principles. He says in effect, that the subjects of every State ought to contribute to the support of the Government in proportion to the benefit they enjoy through the protection of that State. Taxation should be levied at the most convenient time and cheaply raised. Professor Pawcett says the same thing, but points out in his book on Political Economy, that it is difficult to carry out Adam Smith's theory in its full meaning He says, however, that the theory ought to be carried out approximately. I ask you to pay particular attention to this : He points out that in looking at this question of taxation you must look at it as a whole. That is the principle that should guide one, and Mill has in fact the same thing. We have therefore to ask rlas the taxation of the past been of a class character? If, as Smith lays down, each one should contribute to the revenue of the State according to the protection he enjoys at the hands of the State, there has been in the past the very grossest class legislation. Regarding our Customs revenue, there 13 practically as much taxation cast on the man ©f small means as there is on the man of lar'e meaus. We will take, for example, a man who has a large landed estate. The value of that estate he has had increased fourfold by increased public works. He may not pay so much to the State as the man who has not had any benefit of this kind conferred on him—who is just earning sufficient to keep him and his family decently together, who is payir?« more perhaps to the State than a man holding 4000 or 5000 acres of land. Some people Sdy,°" Oh you must not have class legislation, or eke you will ruin the Colony !" In the past, gentlemen we have had one of the grossest kinds of clas3 legislation, and yet the Colony has not been ruined.—(Cheers.) That has been the kind of taxation in the past—a violation of all the fundamental rules laid down by the most eminent political economists. How shall we approach it ? We ought to meet it by having a land_ tax.—(Cheers.) I will give you the opinions of certain political economists and then apply them as to whether a land _ tax is fair or not. You wil seen in the Australasian statements to the effect that the Berry Government aie ruinin"Victoria because they aye levying a land tax • but they are not. Professor Fawcett says :— "A laud tax consequently differs from all other taxes, for it possesses the excellent quality of providing a large revenue for the Sta*e without diminishing the wealth of any class in the community. It is evident that, as far as the cultivators of the soil are concerned, it can be a matter of no conseauence whatever to them whether they pay a land tax to the Government, or whether they pay rent to private landowners. It does not consequently raise the price of commodities." Mill says: " From the^ present date or any subsequent time at which the_ Legislature may think fit to assert the principle, I see no objection to declaring | that the future increment of rent should be I liable to special taxation; in doing which every shadow of injustice to the landlord would be obviated if the present market price of their land were secured to them, since that includes the present value of ali future expectations." And then he goes on—he is speaking further on the question of the equality of taxation :—"I I must remark that there are cases in which exceptions may be made to it consistently with that equal justice which is the groundwork of the rule. Supposing," and I ask your particular attention to this, "that there is a kind of ! income which constantly tends to increase without any exertion or sacrifice on the part of the owners, those owners constituting a class in the community whom the natural course of j tilings progressively enriches consistently with complete passiveness on their part. In such a case it would be no violation of the principles I°u hich [ )rivate Property i 8 grounded if the State should appropriate this increase of ! wealth or part cf it as it arises. This would not properly ba taking anything from anybody ; it would merely be applying an accession of wealth-created circumstances to the benefit of society, instead of allowing it to become an unearned appendage to the riches of a particular class." I apply that in this Colony where we may see a man owning a vacant section of land in the Taieri district, for example. The land lies idle; the man puts tip no kuildinga on it; be does not use it for any purpose whatever. In 18G4 or 18G5, say, that land might have been worth L 20 0; now it is worth L' 20,000. And the man has simply slept; he has done nothing to improve the land. What right has he to have this money put into his pocket, which raally belongs to the community at large?—(Cheers.) Now a land-tax would get at thin man. It would not, however, take the whole of the increase from him; but we say that he has a right to pay something towards the State that has made his land so valuable.—(Cheers.) We take, for another example, the man who had 10 or 12 years ago LIOOO. The ordinary interest was 12.V per cent, then, so that begot Ll2O per annum for it. But wealth has been coming into the Colony • he has been paying taxes t > the funds, and lie finds now that he has his LIOOO, but on goinc to lend it out he perhaps only gets 8 per cent"; so that by the progress of the community he' is losing L4O a year of his income. If he had mve.--.ted this in land he would now have 1,300 a year. I ask is it fair that this great increase —that a person should reap all thi3 and not pay a fair share to tho State that has made his property so valuable to him ?— (Cheers ) I will quote you another passage from Mill, in which he deals with the same question.' " The ordinary progress of a society which increases in wealth is at all times tending to augment the incomes amongst landlords. If lie «aid that about Kngland what would he say about the Colonies? To give them both a greater amount and a greater proportion of the wealth of the community, independently of r.ny trouble or outlay incurred by themselves. They grow richer as it were in their .-leei> without working or economising. What claim huve they on the general principles of social justice to his accession of riches? In what would they "nave been wronged if society had from the iirst beginning reserved a right of taxing the spontaneous increase of rent to the highest .•imonnt required by financial exigencies?"'— (Hear, hear.) These are the opinions, not of :i violent man, but of one of the coolest heals that ever was in Britain—John Stuart Mill; and if you will apply that to the Colony you will lind a land tax the fairest tax, if" it is hedged about with certain provi-'oiis. One of the*,) provisions is this : That industry should not 1)6 taxetl.--(llear, hear.) If a man iniprovo.i his land, you ought not to increase the tux as he improves tho land. You ought to \Ko, if you ear,, at this, intneasim/ increment in toe value of the lai;J—not at the increase in laud thiv/.j.ifh putting on improvements — (Hear.) 'ilion we havo another thing to tleul with. 1 hf>re ou:,'ht to be a certain exemption, as both Fav/eett and Mill point out,

If yon exempted all lands worth LSOO, these would not of course pay a tax ; but in the case of land worth L 2500, you would have to pay a tax on L2OOO only. This exemption is greatly in favour of small settlers straggling to get a footing m the Colony, and would cast the tax on those who are well able to bear it.—(Loud cheers.) How, then, is this to be carried out ? lnere are two methods of carrying it out, an, d. L ( or, my own part don't care what method is adopted, because it seems to me that they are practically the same, though I see that there has been a good deal of writing saying that, they are not the same. One ol these systems is the " acreage with proper classiacation." You divide the land into various classes; one class of land you say is i worth so much, another class not quite so much or a little more, as the case may be. So you get the tax made fair; and you will readily see that making the acreage tas with proper classification is practically making a tax with a valuation. Therefore I don't care whether it is done by that method or whether it is done by the other method to which I refer, in which the land is valued independent of the buildings that have b 2 <-n reared upon it. If you had this groundwork valued and you allowed a certain deduction, then you can put your own tax on that at so much in the pound. 1 believe we shall never ba able to get any economical Administration until we bring the taxpayer and the people face to face. Once the people have to pay the money out of their pockets they will see that the money is not lavishly or foolishly expended. This reform, which should be carried out, would be of great service. Contrast it with the other scheme which is proposed to the electors of the Colony. We had an ex-Minister, for whom I have the greatest respect, saying that he would like to see—what do you think? He wished to have a police and educational rate; that is two rates. My first objection to such a thing !■*, that it would be creating two machineries, I which would be an expensive thing to collect, i hen there would be the objection that it would a tax on industry, because you would 1.i3 taxing irnnroved and unimproved land— higher, in fact, on unimproved land than on improved land. But the third and greatest objection of all, which I wonder has not been seen, is that it simply means that those who live m outlying districts—in those districts say wnere there thousands of acres of land with nothing upon it but a few shepherds and their dogs and the sheep—would not need any police or education rate, because the sheep would not require to be protected, nor the <lo<-d require the schools.—(Laughter.) The result would be this: that these large properties which are increasing rapidly in value, will escape scot free from all taxation, while the burden of direct taxation will be cast on our town, suburban, and struggling rural populations. I consider that that taxation would be certainly liable to the charge cf class taxation, which is not the case with the taxation which I haveshadowed out as that which the Govern ment intend to propose. There are various other things in reference to taxation which I couH dwell on. but 1 think I have told you sufficient to show that the measures which the Government propose are fair to all classes of this community. ►Something has beer said in reference to a • bursting-up tax," gentlemen. If I had my own way I should be prepared to prohibit any man from holding beyond a certain amount, but uu fortunately, in ray opinion on this question, as on the licensing question, I am only part of the minority. I bay if our system of taxation, which will exempt small holders, means the bursting up of estates, we cannot help it. We are following out this taxation according to the highest dictates cf wisdom. If it bursts up the estates, so much worse for the estates.— (Laughter.) lam not, as a member of the Go vernment, advocating "bursting up"—l am simply advocating a fair system of taxation. If it bur3ts up these estates, there should not be these to burst up.—(More laughter.) CONCLUSION*. There are various other things which I could refer to in dealing with political matters, but I do not wish to detain you unduly. Ihavetoldyou what the objects of the Governments are • and I ask you to remember this: that all those things cannot be carried out in a day. Anyone who ha 3 watched the proceedings of the House of Representatives at \\ ellmgton must be aware of the immense amount of trouble there ia to sret any measure carried through there. All the Government have a right to do to the people is this: To say to them, " these are our opinions and we intend to carry them out. We believe that we can carry them out if we get the hearty support of the constituencies throughout the Colony." Their hearty support will aid us in getting our views made law, but if we fail do not blame us, because we did our best to get them carried out. There is only one other thing I wish to refer to before sitting down. It is this: Some people seem to object when a representative becomes a Minister. There is a very good remedy for that, which you know. But there is a class of men. and if you elect them you can guarantee they will never be Ministers.—(Cheers and laughter.) I think I can say this. It was only after very considerable pressure that I became a Minister. I was loath to go to Wellington, because it took me away from my business and my home, and I like the climate here better than in any other place in the Colony I have yet been in. I can only say this, though in office I don't think I will be found to have changed my opinions, and if I do I hope it will be only from careful consideration and from sincere belief. All I ask the constituency of Dunedin to do, as I feel sure they will, in the future a? they have done in the past, is to give me their hearty support and svmpa* by. If they think lam going wong or misrepresenting them, or see me doin"anything wrong, they have only to tell me so, and they will soon find me non est. (The hen. gentleman resumed his seat amid loud and continued applause.) The Mayor : The hon. gentleman will now be happy to answer any questions that any gentleman present may wish to ask him. Mr Gordon' : Do you purpose in your new Electoral Bill to make the ballot entirely secret: