THE CHINESE QUESTION.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 1167, 28 September 1865, Page 5

THE CHINESE QUESTION.

DEPUTATtON TO I'clK GuVBRNMBHT".:

The deputation appointed bythe,Chamber of Commerce to present to the Government the resolutions recently agreed toby the Chamber relative to Chinese immigrants, had an interview yesterday, for that purpose.

The members of the Government present were the Provincial Treasurer (Mr F. J. Moss), the Provincial Secretary (Mr F. Walker), and Mr John Hughes. The deputation consisted of Messrs George Turnbul!, vice-president of the Chamber; Christopher Caldwell, Bank of Australasia; J. A. Ewen, Messrs Sargood, King, andSargood; G. G. Russell; W. A. Tolmie, Messrs Dalgetj7, Kattray, and Co; "W. Watson, Messrs "W. Watson and Sons; and Martin Sholl, secretary.

Mr Turnbuli, said—We have come as a deputation from the Chamber of Commerce, to present to the Government two resolutions recently agreed to bytheChamber, with reference to Chinese immigration; and to ask that the Government will give official notice that the lives and property of any Chinese coming here will be protected.. Some correspondence has taken placa between one of the firms here and g.ntlcmenin Victoria, from which it appears that there is ah inclination on the part of the C linesa to try this Province lor gold mining; but that they want a guarantee that they will be protected. "We know, a3 a matter of course, that that protection wilt be given; but the Chinese are not acquainted with our laws, and they want some official notification of the fact that they will ; be protected. The Chamber believes that the result of the introduction of Chinese would be advantageous to the Province, as a whole ; and that it could not seriously injure the interests of anybody connected with the Province. The experience, o£ those who know the Chiuese—aud there arc gentlemen present who have had ltfrge experience in the matter, while I cannot claim to have had any—is that they are a very useful body of men in working 'out fields that have been abandoned by European digger?. . On'that account alone, we think that it would tend to develop the resources of the Province, to have Chinese located oh fields now abandoned iti consequence of rushes to places that are more attractive to European diggers. Ido hot know that any serious objection can be urged against the introduction of Chinese ; for it is nothing but acting out the spirit of free trade and the liberty of the subject, not only to prevent any obstacle bdng offered, but to encourage people to settle amongst us, from whatever country they may come, so long as they are content to obey the law and to follow lawful Callings. I beg to hand to the Government the resolutions come to by the Chamber; and I have no doubt that further information will be furnished by members of the deputation, who arc better acquainted with, the subject, than I am. ; The Provincial Trf.asdhee: The resolutions are— .

T.h-t it is desirable tb%t tho imaiif*ratipn of Chinese iuto tlm Province be encouraged: '

'lint a O'nmitteo be appointed to w.ii uport ihe (iovmisrmit, to ur#a th-s Executive to give, nnoffici-.l letter or nitioe tO'.«ha effec thatthe ■ ives nud property of any (Jt.iaeso comlugjinto ibe Provluce will be protected, 'i ha Committee t'i fon4st of Me-'scsTulmie, "'urnball, ttooertfion, Ul2 jre:], Wuteoa, und Kunsell. ■ "

You think that, to carry out the proposal, it is desirable that the Government should give some official notification ? Mr TcßNiiurx : It appears that there is a fear amongst the Chinese, from experience in Victoria, that they might lidt be properly protected. What we ask, is simply some notice that would' satisfy their minds on that .point. The Pbovixciax. Secretary : Ts it the fact, that any difference i 9 made in Victoria, between the treatment of Chinese and Europeans? Mr Tolmie: Originally there was. - MrEwjiK: Great obstructions were at first piaced to Chinese getting into*that , Colony at all. ■ ■ • The Provincial Secretary: Bat they" are done away with now. Mr Ewen : Yes, all such restrictions are done away with. But Chinese were not only prohibited from landing in Victoria, at first —they were ill-used by the miners. The feeling that led to such conduct has, however, subsided to a grea textent.JJlt is fair to presume that a timid and weak people, like the Chinese, will not like to undergo a similar ordeal here. All that is needed is to give them an assurance that they will not be ill-used by the miner*, o: anybody else, aud then, I have no doubt, they will not only come here but will p»ove a very ust'tul population. . > The Provincial Treasurer; Then, you are asking no more than the Chinese can claim as a right: it would be the duty of the Government to protect thsnx thoroughly, if they came here.' < _ Air Tuknbuld : If they ■ had the same notions on the subject, and the same information as ourselves, there wouldj>e no difficulty. It is their notion, or their prejudice, on the subject, that has to be got ■rid of. ■ Mr Ew'bn : It is more a fear than a prejudice: they don't care to undergo tint* same ill-treatment here as they did. in Victoria. The Provincial. Secretabx : Were they not protected in the ordinary way, in Victoria? If a European miner assaulted a Chinese, was he not liable, equally as if he had assaulted a, European? ft was the difficulty of getting a conviction, I suppose. * • Mr EwßKi The difficulty was, that if anything was done wrong,, it was certain to. be said that the Chinamen were ta'blame for it; and a Juinamin could not express, himself in intelligible language, when he was accused. ■ ' ■ ~'..•■■

Mr Toluie : That is done away with, now.

Mr Hughes : I believe that in no case were the Cninese in Victoria ill-used intentionally by the miners. I do not believe that the Ctiiaese have any goad ground for fear. Except in one or t<vo cases in New South Wales, I recollect ho riots, or any ill-usage of them, oa the, other side. Air Caldwgu. : On the Bucldand, there were serious riotl?, I know. Mr Hughes: But they were causei principally by the Chinese themselves. ■ Mr Ewbn : I beg pardon. I know the Buckland well,.and alUhe other Victorian, gold fields, I can. apeak from observation*,.

The, ,peneral commencement of-the riots was, tfiat the Chiac&c were supposed to . have tncroacl.cd upon ground claimed by European miners, but which they had neglected for tome time. Chinamen having got to work and cleared out a claim, found the next one empty, and occupied it. When the European claimant 'returned, he rcsenlcd tliis. The Chinaman, being v.cak, v.ms unable to cope with the European ; he got KFsi-faiJce, and numbers .li/came enlisted on each side. Such was the origin•■ of the. riots on the Buckland. .

Mr Hughes: It is only what is due to

the Victorian Government, to acknowledge that they did give every protection to the Cl)!*r.e?e. In every ca'e in which it could be proved that a European had ill-used a ChinTnan, the offender W3s puni.-hed for it. There has been no favoritism to Englishmen,.in that respect.

The PitoviNcrAi, Titi:AiiUKKU: is there any ground for supposing that Chines'.- in Victoria have been led to believe that they would I c ill-treated if they came here ?

Mr TußNKur.r..: I don't suppose there is. Mr Toi-mie : There is a feeling ia the minds of the Chinrpe that they are debarred from New Zealand; and it has been fostered, to acerrain extent, T believe.

The Provincial Treasurer: And you wi^h the Government to depart from the usual course, because there is some ground for believing such to be the case ?' Mr Tolmik: While Mr Harris was Superintendent, the. Government was applied to on the subject; and his Honor wrote' a letter going further than anything that 19 asked now. I think that that letter was published in Chinese and distributed on the gold fields in Victoria1: at shy rate, on (he strength of it, it was proposed to send a trial shipment of Chinese over. But the kttrr did' not,go until January;it was February or March before it was distributed ; and it wns then thought advisable nut to smd Chinamen over so late in the season, teeing that this climate is ?o' much coldtr, and the men might not have got a proper looting before theVinter Bet in. The matter was therefore delayed un!il the .spring, when, it was understood, this shipment would come down. All that is required to secure that trial.shipment,, is the assurance of protection which is asked; and then, 1 believe, v/e shall'see Chinese here in a few weeks.

Mr Ewen- : Perhaps the Government have that correspondence still ?

Mr Tolmie: There was no correspondence beyond this :—A letfer was sent to a correspondent here ; the Superintendent wus waited on ; and His Honor wrote the letter I have mentioned.

The PuoviNciAi/fiEciuiTAity : It seems to me, that all you are asking is a written statement that the Government will do just what they are bound to do—give the game legal protection to Chinese, if outraged, as they are bound to give tr B every subject in the Province. The Pkovinctat,1 Trkasureh. : Of course, they will be protected, to the utmost power of the Government, if necessary. We have no reason to suppose that any extraordinary protection will be requisite ; but, if requisite, Chinese will be protected, most assuredly, iti life and property. Mr CAT-mvELL : It is on the other side that the assurance is wanted. We know it without assurance here.

The Provincial Tkeakober: Yes; you ask us to depart from the usual course, because the Chinese are led to believe that they will be very badly treated. Mr 'Hughes; I think that that has scarcely .been established. I think that Chinamen in Victoria have already been brought acquainted with the fact that they would have all the protection, that could possibly be given them. If they won't come upon that assurance, I don't see wiry we should be asked to give a further assurance, when there is no proof that they have a contrary impression. Mr■Tuunhull : There is proof of it, so far direct as it can lie .fi.oin the writiug of a principal merchant in.Melbourne. Mr Ewek : I can say from my own knowledge, that Chinese have been on board ship, to come here, and have beeu turned off again. Mr Hughes : But that was in the early days. I have heard that assertion before. Mr Ewes : It is no mere assertion—l know it to have been so.

Mr llumiES: Don't you think that it would be better if tlie..Charnber of Commerce and the public got up meetings and tried to get European emigrants here— that they should use the same exertiom in that direction as they are using about the Chinese 't I don't tliiuk that Chinese are at all to he preferred. t° Europeans; and I believe that if the Clumber and the public would exert themselves,.so as to bring influence to bear upon the Devonshire,, Cornish, and Welsh miners, we should then get a pcrmanuut and a much more .valuable population.

'.Mr Russell : But consider the expense that' Would involve.

.Mr Watson :-The Chinese are much nearer to us. '

Mr Hughes: They are ; v but it strikes me there must hi some particular motive in getting, Chiiiese here,, when we see that no exertions are beiDg;u3ed to get British Eettlers. •

Mr Tuexiiull: The Government not only uses iufluence to get people from Britain, but . spends money, also. We should be glad to see thousands . of. them come to the Province; but we propose to get Chinese, because we thiuk : that they will work ground which has been abandoned by Europeans. Mr HuGin:s: I don't think that that idea .will be burae out. The very ground that will he taken up by Chinese, would, if they did not come, be- taken up by Europeans within the next 12 months.

The Provincial Treasurer : I have heard that the" Chinese ai\> very good hands at sluicing and puddling. Mr llcghks : They may be; but, then, we haven't' any puddling here for them to do. No doubt, there is a large amount of gold to be got by sluicing ; but I very much doubt whether the Chixiese will ever turn their attention to tbat work. It is too cold for them, and is not otherwise adapted to their habits. Mr Turnijuli, : That is their business.

Mr Hughes: And I think it is also their business, if they want to come here,to come without any special inducement. Mr Tolmie :? No "special inducement is wanted —only that it shall ba stated in: writing that they will;he protected. Mr Ew.en- : It is an astonishing fact, that Mr Hughes should not know that the Chinese, in Victoria, stick to what are called abandoned gold fields, r I will

guarantee that seven out of .every ten fields there, which were originally 'opened up by Europeans, but which have now been. lelt by_, the larger portion of the European diggern, will be found pretty well populated by Chinamen. la addition to that, some of the best fields in Victoria were opened by Chinese ; and Ararat, about the largcbt rush ever known there, was co opened. As to the Chinese not sluicing, I have seen them at it in hundred), on the Ovens, which it?, perhaps, the only field on which water supply is really available; and on the Bucklan-J, I have seen them sluicing as well as Europeans. The Provincial Tkeasubeb: I ani glad ■to find that this movement ia not got up because miners are leaving the Province; for I think there can be very little doubt that they go ay/ay with a knowledge _that they can aUvays return here to a certainty. Water races in this Province are becoming very important and extensive properties ; and I have no doubt that veiy many miners who have left us will, if they make money, come back again to take part in races or in sluicing undertakings ; as many who made money here went back to quartz-reefing in Victoria. lam glad to fi,pd that the present movement is not one intended.to fill the places men have left, or are Reaving, by' people of another race altogether—that it simply represents an application emanating from the Chinese themselves, as showing their desire to come here—that, in con«eqnence of that expressed desire, if I understand it rightly, the subject was mentioned to the Chamber of Commerce—and that the r Chamber, seeing that Chinamen are desirous to come, but are ignorant of our laws and customs, ask the • Government to depart from the usual course, and t) give a written assurance that they will be protected, which they must be, as a matter of course, if they come, I can see no objection to piving such a.written assurapce. The PnovixctAi. Secretary: There is one point which is worthy of consideration by gentlemen interested in the welfare of the Province, before taking steps to induce Chinese to come here^—how far the presence of Chinese will create a prejudice in the minds of European miners.. We expect that a great proportion of the miners who are leaving us, will return. Will the introduction of Chinese create a prejudice against the Province, and, perhaps, deter those miners from coming back'?.:; There can be no doubt, other things being equal, that a European population ;is. : preferable to a Mongolian one. The Provincial Treasurer : As far as prejudice is concerned, we h?ive not found miners very tender about leaving .xta ( and going back to Victoria,; where there are many Chinese. , : Mr TnHNuurx: Thaje are 40,009 id that colony. : ■■:•■.. , •■■ ] Mr Ewes:, There were 50,000 according to the last census. The Puovinwal Secbetart : I am thinking that ij;,would not.be advisable for. the Government to take any special action in the matter. What is asked of us, is simply a.matter of .duty, bo far as protecting any Chinese when here. But you mny well ask yourselves, whether their coming is likely to promote the permanent pros-1 perity of the Province. Mr HuGiiKS : I very much fear that the effect will he that only a few, of the miners who have left us will ever come back to settle amongst Chinese.. I don't know any good reason why it should be so ; but I do well know that there ia that prejudice. Mr Watson: I think you will;find, if the gold lasts, that. European miners will always be glad to come hack here.

The Provincial Treasures :.You Lave brought' two resolutions to the Government; The first is, " That it is desirable that the immigration of Chinese into the Province be encouraged." Now, thsit is a question on which there might be considerable discussion; and I don't think that we can assent to the proposition. Mr Eusskm. : I do not think that that resolution should have been submitted to the Government. •'

Mr Tolmie: That is an expression of opinion by the Chamber. Our object to-day, is to get the assent of.the Government to the second resolution.

The Provincial Treasurer: It will be better to confine attention now to that resolution. If you can show that Chinese would be useful immigrants, it might be well; for there is a great deal of ignorance on the-general question, in the Province.

Mr Turnbull : Our present object is to get the notice as to protection,'for which we have asked; to send it to Victoria and get it circulated; and to watt the effect. ~ The Provincial Secretary :,I think that we can have no objection1 to; give 'the assurance : we are bound to give the protection. , ' '. '

MrEwEK: A gentleman who has just come from Melbourne, stated to: me yesterday; that the Chinese are amongst the largest lessees, for the purposes of new industries, under the' new Land' Act —that they are cultivating; rice and tea, and in-<: troducing other altogether fresh cultivations. The Chinese are the first marketgardeners on the- gold ;fields; and they have already introduced several vegetables previously unknown amongst us—one of them, a species of bset, being known as " the Chinese cabbage.".

Mr Hughes : I do not think that their market-gardening would be of much value here; for we find that European miners, on every gold field here, cultivate vegetables for themselves, to so, great an exteat that gardeners on the different fields have oi'ten no market for their produce. We may leave the market-gar-dening of the Chinese out of consideration. On Tuapeka, and elsewhere, I know there is no market for gardeners. The Clutha farmer ia now driven to Dunedin for a market, because he cannot sell his produce on the gold fields.. Mr Tolmie : Because, the population have left. :. < .

Mr Hughes: No; but because the miner has become a gardener, wherever he has the opportunity.

The Provincial Treasurer : I will hand back to Mr Turnbull this first resolution of the Chamber —it is not for the Government to say that Chinese immigration should be encouraged. As to the other resolution, we cannot issue an official ■notice^ unless-we know the grounds ion which it is to be based; and I think the better plan would be, that those grounds should be stated in a written application from the Chamber, to which the Government could reply in writing. If the deputation wish, for a verbal assurance, I may say that I think there cannot be a difference ~of opinion on the poinii—-if Chiaesej coroe,

"hereT they"will recet?e"tHiß~saDae''fSffll(SctiOli* ,as other'residents receive.- rv. f r ■ Mr Httgiies : Of bourse, 1 qulte uagree with that. r , r Mr Tolmie : *If°aTetter is sent at once, can we have the notice, t as a reply, by tomorraw. X- ..>"■. :J_ ■'-,■) /.._ *:L \ .-. The PnovrNCTAr, Teeasubeb : Yes; and I must say-agaiTTptteirTre have no ground for supposing that any extraordinary protection will be necessary 'for Chinese who may come to this Province. :; : :

The deputation.aretired,. after thanking the Government,for their courteous reception.